Machina Mafia (Game over!)

[Imperium]

Oh I'm concerned about Netherspite, reminder to myself to talk about why.

[Imperium]

Oh also courier new

Sorry for the spam, drinking.

[Void Protectorate]

I'm really looking forward to those reasons for Yakko-town.

-Bulba

[Imperium]

Dude. You're wrong.

[Void Protectorate]

Wow. That really made me reconsider my life choices.

-Bulba

[Netherspite]

IIRC you used to be able to catch ika because as scum he wouldn't call for masslcaims and the like whereas as town he would. However, from what I've noticed in some recent games, as town, he's not been so devoted to early mass claims, so that isn't as concerning, but it is also especially concerning that while people were setup specing and making plans, his only response was a "if imperium is interested in mass claim they should start it", though we don't want a massclaim in the first place.

In the recent games

ika

is starting the mass claim as scum as well.

Where is he trying to crack the setup?

From my experience with ika one of the things that interests him in games, especially ones with mechanics, is figuring things out. He prides himself on being able to figure out people's roles from small crumbs. Now in this game he's still be able to do that regardless of alignment because of the nature of the game, but the fact that he didn't hold any interest at all in coming up with a plan that town could use the setup to win is concerning.

He's not trying to crack the setup, that's the point.
He's usually trying to crack the setup and starting a mass claim regardless of alignment so absence of those things is not alignment indicative.

[Stairway to the Abyss]

@Bulba, because when I am scum, I tell town what to do but don't fight for it. Thus town acts stupid and ignores me.

@Nether, I have only seen ika massclaim request as scum one and that was an open setup. Second, he stopped massclaim before most of the sums claimed. Ika almost always wants massclaim as town.

[Void Protectorate]

Vamp, Scum and Town Titus both have grand plans. There are minor differences (aside from which side is helped) but at that point its self meta and that's worse than meta.

Still, he has a point. It seems silly for you to try and get one scum member run up to save another.

P sure spiffeh and hana are in cahoots

Whatever floats your boat, scum. Whatevs.

Both nacho and I agree on these town reads: Yakko, Voided Protectorate

No, seriously, you need to explain that Yakko read. It's wakko.

@Titus: Not every chat room game is role madness. In fact, very few are. And even in the ones that are, the roles very rarely cause a win. I'm well aware that lynching is town's best chance at a win. Also, even if mislynches are built into the setup, it doesn't mean we have to use them.

Tbh, I'm starting to think this meta you guys have of lynching everyone is the reason why most of the games I've seen lately have ended in scum win. Maybe you want to think about this whole meta of "lynching is good". Can a scum wagon really work that well without help from scum? And if it can't, which we've already discussed, wouldn't that be playing into scum's hand by doing what they are planning for? Let's try another plan; do the exact opposite of meta this game and see how it goes. That seems like a logical idea.

And I'm not talking about stupid shit like useless gambits. I mean slightly unorthodox moves like NLing, and then lynching for reasons besides that "Player A (who might be scum) is scum reading them".

Because who the scum kill might be a complete nobody, like Peregrine. How the fuck are we supposed to get anything out of a kill like that when PV's ONLY post is just to say "Hi, I'm here!"

Scum win by properly manipulating the town into doing what they want without appearing to be the source, not because we lynch everyone. I've heard it phrased as "the lynch is the one kill town knows they control in some form" (sort-of paraphrase, but you get the idea). There may be vigs, but they work mainly off of their own intentions. Same with SKs, only you don't know whose side they'll be on to maximize their survival. And you know scum will be trying to make the shots that best advance their wincon, whether it be killing of strong town voices to remove leadership or killing off low-profilers/lurkers to sow confusion and hide their motives. Who we as town lynch is something we know is going to happen and have a better grasp on the information that we'll glean from it, obvious or not-obvious.

Besides, scum bussing only helps in the short-term because at the end of the day scum are intentionally dropping one of their number when they're already at least around 1/4th of the town in the first place. Putting a teammate under here may be more helpful than at other times, but it still needs to pay off wonderfully.

Bulb and I are still finalizing our readslist, but we are both full supports of a Numbers lynch. (Also, I like being called Lord Protector )

-Void

[1234567890]

You do it unprovoked, trying to get people off your wagon. I do it when people post things that indicate they don't see you are scum. I am trying to lynch you. You are trying to save your skin.

...And?

It's somehow a scumtell to

not want to be lynched

?

Especially when you're being ignored? (Like, I get being lynched when you're being listened to. Your points after you're confirmed town can help the town win. But people

aren't

listening to me.)

Ranger, go ahead and throw out what "ika" said regarding me. Tell us when he's talking to you.

As I have said, many times by now, there's not active communication. There's one message. December 15th, approximately. (Shouldn't disclose the time zone.) One, single, message. That's it, all I have from him, and I've gotten as close to saying the message as I feel I'm capable of saying. That he can't play thanks to Titus. That's it. One message. Nothing more. No follow-through.

As for the townblock, I need to see Ranger flip scum to confirm my reads are like I posted them.

This is Wisdom leaving an out for when I flip town. "Welp I was wrong, guess I need to start scumreading these people I was previously townreading".

Tone here really reads like "hey look at all the things I did" rather than just fucking scumhunting

Because that's exactly what it was?

I HAVE scumhunted.
You have my reads. (Well, they need a minor tweak, but the list is

mostly

the same.)
You have my reasons.
I have given them as they have come up.
People have been discarding that, saying I'm null, saying I'm scum, and not giving any indication they even remember why they hold that position on me.
So DARN RIGHT I'm pointing it out.
If people don't remember my scumhunting.
I'm going to point out where I've done my scumhunting.

Also if you look at most of these posts they're just like "I think X is scum" with no explanation; instead of explaining you kick the can down the road

Townread very much weakened for BS like this.

bork has played with me before

.
He

knows

better than that.

Of course I say I think players are town or scum without explanation, that's explicitly what I choose to do.

1163 is just a reads summary; what is inherently alignment revealing about it?

Can answer this after I get caught up.

[1234567890]

You say on the one hand that it is a Scum posting period and on the other you say it is a meta read.

The two augment each other. (This is the only part of the post that was really something to respond to.)

I'm not sure I can read her but I didn't like her latest posts: there's nothing besides self-defense.

For the self-defense: of course I'm defending myself. You expect me to, when I'm being pushed (largely for something

out of my control

because I can't show the communication with ika without getting modkilled), just roll over and die? No, I'm going to fight back.

But the statement I've done nothing except self-defense is wrong. Quite the opposite, I have been pushing Wisdom, Stairway, and Imperium (side of Firebringer) as scum in my posts continuously...including right now. I'm pushing them with these very words, trying to get Stairway lynched. I'm not going to lie, though. I'm not going to make up new points when the points existing are the same as the ones that have been there and no new points exist, merely points that reinforce the existing ones. So that's why I'm not quoting, say, every Wisdom post, or every Stairway post. Because nothing changes, and I don't mention something unless it's relevant.

I've seen more complaining about spam than any real scum hunting, and that's coming from someone who has like 6 posts total.

Listing

is

my scumhunting! I scumhunt by giving my list. I scumhunt by giving small updates on the list. I scumhunt by giving small reasons here and there, which contribute to the list. And I've done plenty of that. I have more content than YOU, maybe even both your heads, but definitely your head.

Example: 1380 is incredibly town.

[1234567890]

bh this is sounding like a scum WK on town but I don't want to get cold feet here

Read this.
I'll put just this one quote here in this post, because this is that important. For it to be its own post, by itself.
Read this.
Real good and hard.
READ WHAT WISDOM IS SAYING.

This is, explicitly, saying, "when ikadra flips town, I'm going to start pushing you as scum for white knighting them".

[1234567890]

This reads more proud town but I don't want to put Sakura town yet.

This may be Sakura scum learning from our blitz game.

And Stairway is doing

the exact same thing Wisdom is

.

[1234567890]

Starting to think the scumteam might actually be {Wisdom, Stairway, Imperium, The Random Encounter}.

[1234567890]

Yeah that's a very convenient change of reads there after you got my info, sorry but no
VOTE: Wisdom

~Sakura

Gonna check the votecount to see whichever of the four has the most votes.

But definitely thinking of switching to this.

[Netherspite]

It's somehow a scumtell to

not want to be lynched

?

For me it is as long as you only care about your own survival and not about finding the scum.
Town wins by eliminating the scum, not by surviving.
There's no point in surviving if you end up being endgamed and lose.

But the statement I've done nothing except self-defense is wrong. Quite the opposite, I have been pushing Wisdom, Stairway, and Imperium (side of Firebringer) as scum in my posts continuously...including right now. I'm pushing them with these very words, trying to get Stairway lynched. I'm not going to lie, though. I'm not going to make up new points when the points existing are the same as the ones that have been there and no new points exist, merely points that reinforce the existing ones. So that's why I'm not quoting, say, every Wisdom post, or every Stairway post. Because nothing changes, and I don't mention something unless it's relevant.

Coincidentally these three players happen to be in the beginning of your wagon.
So it can be a self-defense performed via counterattack.
While I may see

Imperium

+

Stairway to Abyss

being scumteamed because of their interaction regarding the spam, I find it unlikely.
Can you take each one of them and list the reasons you scumread them individually?

[1234567890]

Reading through, the more I read what others say about ranger, the more I'm thinking she's being framed. Either it's an attempted bus, or she's town, but either way, town just doesn't say the same shit over and over about someone. I'm looking at you Random and Nether.

Nether's not guilty. Random

might

be, but by FAR the person most guilty of it in regards to me is Wisdom, followed closely by Stairway.

Yeah, I'm really hating Numbers wagon. That's obviously scum driven.

I'm also looking at numbers objectively.

I know that you're trying to get her lynched because she's on to something that you scum don't want her to be on. Trust me, I've looked at her town meta. That girl's sharp as a tack, and'll cause you scums trouble if you don't lynch her. Therefore, she's become target #1.

Indeed. These say it pretty nicely.

I mean, I'm not always right.
But I usually have a good idea of who the scum are.
And the pattern this game is

incredibly sketchy

.

[1234567890]

This is ridiculous and I doubt you actually believe it.

Spoiler: Completed games scumreads

Open 612: one scum immediately off the bat, serial killer nailed D2 along with second scum, third scum accurately named as mafia roleblocker by D3. First game on site. Blitz 2: two scum immediately nailed. Third scum nailed D2. Blitz 3: first scum callout was 50% accurate. Blitz 5: six scum in the game, three in my scum tier, two not far behind. Suikoden: two scum immediately off the bat. Blitz 8: #1 scumread was scum, second scum was within sights. Blitz 10: one scum in my top-scumread tier, second scum in tier immediately above that.

DiamondSentinel has EVERY reason to believe I am a competent scumhunter, because I

am

. So he's perfectly correct that the push on me is highly suspect.

I'm obviously not 100% accurate, not even close. I'd say my full average would be 50% overall. But I'm still

good

, DS knows this, and you're trying to discredit me AND him with this by dismissing a very valid point.

Her insistence that she be the top poster and the repeating of "moonlogic" over everything else is making me wary. I thought the top poster thing was town at first, but now that she's prioritizing mechanic and theory stuff, I'm not quite as sure. I get that she's proud of Suikoden (I'm not going to read it, but I get the gist.), but I'd imagine more scumhunting coming from her instead of focusing on town blocking.

This.

I'm also cautious given there's been no real scumhunting coming from the slot. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if I didn't really hate their claim idea.

Yeah, glad someone said it!

OH WAIT.
I ALREADY DID.

I know that Ranger doesn't need to try that hard to make a case.

Utterly false. We've never played before, as this shows, since if you had, you'd know that making cases takes EXTREME amounts of willpower from me. I call it "laziness", but truth is it's something much, much more than that.

Unvote
Vote: 1234567890

Serious question here.

You noted

in this post

how much you're weary of both Stairway and Imperium.
So.

Why are you on the same wagon as both of them

?

[1234567890]

Yeah, glad someone said it!

OH WAIT.
I ALREADY DID.

And people wonder.
Just maybe WONDER.
Why I go back and quote myself to point out what I've said.

[1234567890]

Ika just up and leaves as scum.

If that were true, he would have a noticeable trend of being replaced for flaking from his scumgames, absent from his towngames, correct?

Show it.

I'm pretty sure that ika as scum will post prod-dodges.

But he's not.

See, this freaks me out.

-Bulba

Yet, again. You're

supporting the wagon they're pushing

.

[1234567890]

For me it is as long as you only care about your own survival and not about finding the scum.
Town wins by eliminating the scum, not by surviving.
There's no point in surviving if you end up being endgamed and lose.

Yeah, exactly. And getting mislynched takes us one step closer to that endgame. My lynch is not a scum lynch, thus scum aren't eliminated. My lynch is a town lynch, therefore taking us closer to being endgamed. I very much have been scumhunting: raising points and giving reads. But that scumhunting means nothing if it's ignored.

Coincidentally these three players happen to be in the beginning of your wagon.

Yes, coincidentally.
Now read the game's chronology.
When did I scumread them? 371, and

every post since then

.
When did they start the wagon on me?

Check the difference between 1114:

Stairway to the Abyss (6): 1234567890, SnarkySnowman, Minami no Hana, hi im Yakko, Courier New, Wisdom
hi im Yakko (2): Void Protectorate, Lady Lambdadelta
SnarkySnowman (2): Spiffeh, Firebringer
Courier New (2): Netherspite, Stairway to the Abyss
Firebringer (1): DiamondSentinel

Not Voting (4): Imperium, PeregrineV, Super Dupondt Bros, The Random Encounter

...And the VERY NEXT VOTECOUNT, 1316:

1234567890 (6): Spiffeh, Stairway to the Abyss, Wisdom, Imperium, Super Dupondt Bros, DiamondSentinel
Stairway to the Abyss (4): 1234567890, SnarkySnowman, hi im Yakko, Courier New
hi im Yakko (2): Void Protectorate, Lady Lambdadelta
Courier New (1): Netherspite
SnarkySnowman (1): Firebringer

Not Voting (3): PeregrineV, Minami no Hana, The Random Encounter

I am the counterwagon to Stairway. This is, undeniably, provably, a fact.
I have been scumreading those three since the beginning of the game.
Then they started a wagon on me to save Stairway, who WAS A VIABLE WAGON AT THE TIME.

[1234567890]

Can you take each one of them and list the reasons you scumread them individually?

And people wonder why I repeat myself! I did this in 1173.

[Netherspite]

Yeah, exactly. And getting mislynched takes us one step closer to that endgame. My lynch is not a scum lynch, thus scum aren't eliminated. My lynch is a town lynch, therefore taking us closer to being endgamed. I very much have been scumhunting: raising points and giving reads. But that scumhunting means nothing if it's ignored.

It is more helping achieving town wincon if you focus only on pushing your scumreads instead of wasting time on self-defense.
Survival of one townie means close to nothing for the town victory. Finding one scum means a lot.
Scum, on the other hand, has nothing to do except self-defense and attempting to look town. That's why self-defending is scummy. I know, some people disagree with me but that's my opinion.

Can you take each one of them and list the reasons you scumread them individually?

And people wonder why I repeat myself! I did this in 1173.

Yes I've read that. I thought you can add something.
Out of these points I can semi-agree only on

Imperium

.
For

Wisdom

and

Stairway to Abyss

you provide no arguments besides preflip associatives, "he's scum because he's scumposting" and "she's scum because she's spamming" which I find not enough to strongly scumread someone.

[1234567890]

It is more helping achieving town wincon if you focus only on pushing your scumreads instead of wasting time on self-defense.

Strongly disagree, but at this point it's a theory debate. Do you want to continue it? Because we'll both be talking about something that both of us hold regardless of alignment.

Yes I've read that. I thought you can add something.

The easiest answer would be: "Iso me. Control-f Wisdom. Read every mention of him." (You'll get some false positives where I answer questions Wisdom posed, but mostly it's attacking him.) "Then, control-f Imperium; read every mention of them." (Don't think I have any false positives there?) "Stairway's harder since you have to control-F Stairway, LQ, Titus, and maybe LQ spelled out, and there will be some false-positives, but most of them will be points."

I'll put it in chronological order for you, though. Every point against each of them.

[1234567890]

First off: I explain my methodology fairly well in 773:

I hold some townreads, and I hold some players who are not so town, and then there are players who have posted without leaving an impression either way. I've commented on who these people are as I've gone along.

So with that in mind,

Spoiler: Stairway

229/230 (ika, but still valid), 371 (listing is a valid thing), 377 (stating agreement on the read), 773 (last part), 799 (last part), 811 (first part), restating of reads in 1108, with the official full list in 1117, 1147 has

No. I was scumreading you, Stairway, and Imperium on page one before you started spamming. The spam has contributed to the scumread, as I do not think that high ratio of noise is made with a pro-town agenda in mind. (As I have said, I believe the Stairway-Imperium fight to be staged, and quite probably your Stairway interactions as well.) However, it is not the basis of the read.

And:

Titus is scum.
She knows I am a minimalist. I gave almost zero reason for LQ and BM to be scum in Suikoden, yet I very much was town there. This is also false, since I have given reason for why I think Wisdom is scum

(Titus is scum because she knows my style and is trying to present my style as if it was scum.)
1169 last part (both the quote and the link), my explanation came in 1173 which you have read, and I've continued giving reasoning since then: 1174, 1181 particularly this:

This is a gigantic misrep of the situation.

YOU WERE INVOLVED IN THE CONVERSATION.
You and LLD were both posting about chaos. (Lowercase.) Wisdom came in and put in uppercase, "Chaos is bad". LLD responded to this by saying that it's not, controlled chaos is good. Wisdom told LLD about the scum name. LLD then laughed at Wisdom's earlier comment. The point of the matter is that LLD did not realize the scumteam's name was Chaos, something an actual member of the scumteam would.

This is consistent (not dodging, consistent as in AUGMENTED BY) with Suikoden: in Suikoden, scum fumbled because they didn't know the name of the town, something an actual member of the town would. It's an identical situation, only flipped. For one to be true, the other must be true as well: if scum not knowing the name of the town is a scumslip (it is), then town not knowing the name of the scum is a townslip. This is simple logic.

(Titus is known for logic, too, so she should logically think that LLD's townslip is genuine because LQ's scumslip was genuine.)

Then there's 1313, where I note the three scum having joined my wagon, 1327 (Stairway bullied DS when DS showed original thought that was accurate about me), and 1330 where I make the counterwagon comparison more explicit. 1561 is the final unique point against Stairway, though I do elaborate on the wagons more in 1565 (top) and 1569. While it's not an

original

point, I also agreed with Voided in 1566.

So that's my posting on Stairway, chronologically.

[1234567890]

Spoiler: Wisdom

We get a fair overlap with Titus, here.
371, where I list against him. 811 I call him out on associatives--for instance, his post in that very same post I quoted, where he notes how Nacho's banging on Titus is pointless and he knows it...yet Wisdom did nothing about either Stairway

or

Imperium.

The list comes in 1117. 1147 has a small one,

No. I was scumreading you, Stairway, and Imperium on page one before you started spamming.

The spam has contributed to the scumread, as I do not think that high ratio of noise is made with a pro-town agenda in mind. (As I have said, I believe the Stairway-Imperium fight to be staged, and quite probably your Stairway interactions as well.) However, it is not the basis of the read.

...Because yes, I do think the spam in this case is indicative of scum drowning the town out. I elaborate in 1169, specifically this part:

Yes, it does. My stance on you, explicitly, is that your posting is null: it does nothing by itself to be town, but also nothing by itself to be scum. However, the nature of your spammy interactions with Stairway, particularly how you continuously are pushing Stairway yet every time momentum builds you immediately switch to the popular wagon of your fancy (e.g. mine which is opportunistically hopping on given 1131 made it clear you preferred Snarky, and Snarky himself), makes you be a very strong scumread.

After that, you get my explanation in 1173 which you have already read. 1313 points out the scum-driven wagon on me.
1314 had a VERY important one where I quote a huge issue I have with Wisdom this game:

I've agreed with him on some reads in the past, I have major issues with his play this game in that a lot of it seems specifically

designed to egg on conflict or some sort of mob mentality

, and that's MY experience with him as scum.

Specifically the bolded.

1327 is pointing out how Wisdom gave DS a bad time for raising valid points. 1330 points out Wisdom's hypocrisy:

Huh. Funny. Guess what you're doing to me?

Repetition is null, but that you think it's a scumtell speaks loads to your hypocrisy.

1558 contains one of THE most important things on Wisdom, though.

This is Wisdom leaving an out for when I flip town. "Welp I was wrong, guess I need to start scumreading these people I was previously townreading".

^This part. And then, we get an even more important 1560.
1565 (top half) deals with why Wisdom's push on me is scum.

I left out the wagon analysis, because while that does point to Wisdom being scum (him refusing to seriously push Stairway, but pushing me the counter-wagon to Stairway), it's mainly an indicator for Stairway being scum. (Because I'm town and the counter-wagon to Stairway.)