Mini 1747: Cinnamon Roll Mafia Endgame

[Chaotic Neutrality]

His vote onto hawkleader3

Why did you just lie? I haven't voted hawk all game

[FA_Q2]

Meh, might as well put in some effort before I go afk. I'd prefer if Swordsworth or FA_Q2 get lynched for today. I'd like it if ChaoticNeutrality can give some reasons behind his thoughts rather than soft pushing people and trying to get others to make reasons for him. iranoavp or whatever his name is needs to be looked at again. And by that, I mean his ISO. I said he was no-lynch pile for today but that may change. His vote onto hawkleader3 might have been an opportunity to jump onto an easy wagon and his subsequent jump onto the next popular wagon with terrible reasoning was highly suspect.

If people would discuss what I've said that would be great.

btw, I am Mafia attempting to point people in all the wrong directions so there's actually no need to listen to what I've been saying.

This is getting old very fast moosey.

If you don't want to play then replace out. Otherwise, start playing. You are going out of your way to make this game pointless.

[iraonavp]

That makes no sense. Scum can make up reasons just as easily as town could, and they'll often look better because they're paying attention to how people read them.

Placement of the votes and motivation matter a hundred times more than reason.

I don't like this post one bit.

You cast doubt on Dave's statement but fail to complete your statement. If placement mattered so much more then why did you not bother to address those that jumped on where you consider scummy placement? I would also state you are completely incorrect. Placement matters but scum can just as easily manipulate that as they can come up with reasoning. Reasoning is a powerful tool for town - as the game rolls on scum tend to reveal themselves with inconsistent reasoning and in the motivations behind those reasons.

Speaking of which:

VOTE: toolendeuso

You uh

Wanna expand on that thought?

not really but i probably have to later

No, you really need to now. A vote is worthless without something behind it to get more people to vote.

I disagree with this post on a theory level. If all the scum-aligned players just gave reasons for their votes (not a difficult thing to do), then on this basis they'd be indistinguishable from the town-aligned players! If you use such a rigid rubric for determining a player's alignment, I feel you will more frequently entrap players of any alignment who simply don't feel like playing by the rules or giving reasons for their votes.

With that said, VOTE: Metrion! Let's turn this into a fun game where Metrion flounders about and continues to post scummy things in an attempt to grasp how iraonavp worked out his alignment, while votes pile up on him!

[FA_Q2]

His vote onto hawkleader3

Why did you just lie? I haven't voted hawk all game

Good point. You have only placed an RVS and you vote is still sitting there. You have only disseminated doubt without actually giving any real points. Lastly, you are feeling out a Moosey lynch but again not offering any actual original input to it.

VOTE: Chaotic Neutrality

Moosey actually pointed this out as well:

I'd like it if ChaoticNeutrality can give some reasons behind his thoughts rather than soft pushing people and trying to get others to make reasons for him.

Fist think he has posted this game that was not garbage.

[iraonavp]

iranoavp or whatever his name is needs to be looked at again. And by that, I mean his ISO. I said he was no-lynch pile for today but that may change. His vote onto hawkleader3 might have been an opportunity to jump onto an easy wagon and his subsequent jump onto the next popular wagon with terrible reasoning was highly suspect.

I would agree with you that hawkleader3 was an "easy wagon", but what about this makes me likely to be scum-aligned? I would consider easy wagons as those on players who appear scum-aligned, where else would I be expected to vote if you were to consider me likely to be town-aligned?

I do not think that my subsequent jump was onto "the next popular wagon", it had but one vote before I jumped. I would agree with you that my reasoning was less than impressive, this was why I unvoted!

[FA_Q2]

I disagree with this post on a theory level. If all the scum-aligned players just gave reasons for their votes (not a difficult thing to do), then on this basis they'd be indistinguishable from the town-aligned players! If you use such a rigid rubric for determining a player's alignment, I feel you will more frequently entrap players of any alignment who simply don't feel like playing by the rules or giving reasons for their votes.

It is not a matter of rigidity and I don't know where you are pulling that from. They are not indistinguishable because you can analyze their reasoning. Random voting is impossible to analyze and makes determining alignment impossible.

If it entraps more players who 'don't feel like giving reasons' then that is a site meta problem. Meta that would need to be addressed anyway considering that it gimps town hardcore. Theory analysis really is a distraction though.

[iraonavp]

I disagree with this post on a theory level. If all the scum-aligned players just gave reasons for their votes (not a difficult thing to do), then on this basis they'd be indistinguishable from the town-aligned players! If you use such a rigid rubric for determining a player's alignment, I feel you will more frequently entrap players of any alignment who simply don't feel like playing by the rules or giving reasons for their votes.

It is not a matter of rigidity and I don't know where you are pulling that from. They are not indistinguishable because you can analyze their reasoning. Random voting is impossible to analyze and makes determining alignment impossible.

Yes, but what I am trying to convey is that this analysis is ultimately pointless. Perhaps you may determine how logical they are, but you won't determine whether or not they are scum-aligned.

If it entraps more players who 'don't feel like giving reasons' then that is a site meta problem. Meta that would need to be addressed anyway considering that it gimps town hardcore.

I would not consider poor "site meta" a rebuttal for this counterargument. We aren't all cyborgs, and as such perfect play will be rarely achieved. Far from it, in fact, I would expect players to play with a variety of playstyles and skill levels!

Theory analysis really is a distraction though.

I agree, there doesn't seem to be much point in further discussion of this topic considering how we appear to disagree fundamentally. Let it be made clear however that I do not endorse your suspicion of players who vote without reason, but I (somewhat ironically) do not think that you are scum for what I consider this poor reasoning.

[toolenduso]

Yeah #262 from dave does demonstrate what looks to me like a towny mindset.

Want to take a look at some of the more recent votes that have happened.

I think it was Synd that mentioned feeling adrift -- I think most people are in this game right now. It seems like everybody has been waiting for everybody else to do stuff, which partially explains Moosy's behavior I think. But it might be something useful to keep in mind when scumhunting -- perhaps scum have been inactive (Birdy) or hesitant to jump on any wagons.

[toolenduso]

Chaotic does look objectively scummy -- Moosy is, and has been since the beginning of the game, lynchbait. I tried to use him as such (nobody bit but hawk). And here's Chaotic pushing Moosy but never actually voting him. He also says I look scummy and never votes me. The activity is minimal and his vote is still where it was in RVS. He's aware of this, as #300 shows. The lack of activity also fits in with my theory that town is at a standstill right now partially because scum haven't been very active.

I'm also worried about FA at this point, and his vote for Chaotic makes me hesitant because I don't think it would make sense for scum to bus their partner right now -- so if one of them is scum, I think the other is town.

The reasons I'm hesitant about FA are:

-His vote on hawk in #95, which put hawk at L-1 (note: L-1 is not necessarily a scummy place to be, it's more that he was willing to push hawk that far based on what seems like thin reasoning.) (scum explanation: looking for an easily-justified vote)
-He posts a few times kind of trying to continue to justify his vote on hawk after the claim, but then unvotes hawk in #161 after I start arguing that the claim invalidates the wagon. (scum explanation: not wanting to let go of an easy mislynch, balking in the face of an unexpected move from town, then the unvote because he thinks he's going to start looking really bad if he stays on the hawk wagon)
-The vote on Chaotic in #303. (scum explanation: going for lynchbait)

As I said in my ISO reads though, there are a few things that look like FA trying to get reactions/get people to talk more/scum hunt in his ISO. So not sure yet which one is a better vote.

[MoosyDoosy]

You know you can ask for replacement, right?

That would just make ur lives easier and we don't really want that, do we?

idrc what others say, we're killing Swordsworth/FA_Q2/MoosyDoosy today and we're gonna use the flip to analyze the others like ChaoticNeutrality/iraonavp/toolenduso.

Start piling on these three wagons boys.

[Metrion]

Meh, might as well put in some effort before I go afk. I'd prefer if Swordsworth or FA_Q2 get lynched for today. I'd like it if ChaoticNeutrality can give some reasons behind his thoughts rather than soft pushing people and trying to get others to make reasons for him. iranoavp or whatever his name is needs to be looked at again. And by that, I mean his ISO. I said he was no-lynch pile for today but that may change. His vote onto hawkleader3 might have been an opportunity to jump onto an easy wagon and his subsequent jump onto the next popular wagon with terrible reasoning was highly suspect.

If people would discuss what I've said that would be great.

btw, I am Mafia attempting to point people in all the wrong directions so there's actually no need to listen to what I've been saying.

This is getting old very fast moosey.

If you don't want to play then replace out. Otherwise, start playing. You are going out of your way to make this game pointless.

I mean clearly they are playing given the first paragraph.

I'm not sure if this is town frustration or scum just wanting someone FoSing them out of the game. Either way I don't find the strange style Moosy adopted to be alignment indicative, it's different which initially made me lean town really, but apparently they've admitted their capable of doing this as scum so I just haven't dwelled on it when considering their alignment.

[Chaotic Neutrality]

Chaotic does look objectively scummy -- Moosy is, and has been since the beginning of the game, lynchbait

Or you're blatantly defending scum in an effort to look town. It's pretty clear you're trying very hard to look townie.

I haven't voted Moosy yet because I haven't had a chance to ISO anyone and look in depth at my reads, they're very surface level. But it should be obvious if he gets lynched that I was one of the main people pushing that wagon - I'm not going to magically be free of responsibility when he flips just because I wasn't voting him.

Infact if he flips scum I'm sure someone (you) is going to argue I was bussing. Kinda screwed either way.

He's scummy and it's not his play style that I take issue with.

[MoosyDoosy]

Chaotic does look objectively scummy -- Moosy is, and has been since the beginning of the game, lynchbait

Or you're blatantly defending scum in an effort to look town. It's pretty clear you're trying very hard to look townie.

I haven't voted Moosy yet because I haven't had a chance to ISO anyone and look in depth at my reads, they're very surface level. But it should be obvious if he gets lynched that I was one of the main people pushing that wagon - I'm not going to magically be free of responsibility when he flips just because I wasn't voting him.

Infact if he flips scum I'm sure someone (you) is going to argue I was bussing. Kinda screwed either way.

He's scummy and it's not his play style that I take issue with.

This man is probably scum tbh. But feel free to lynch me. Just don't be mad when I flip blue - whoops - I mean red. Darn. Totally let out that I'm a power role by accident. Sorry guys, totally my bad, shouldn't do that in the future.

If you have surface reads you expand on them rather than soft pushing lol. And no, it's not me you're having an issue with, it's pretty obvious that it's my playstyle. If you take away all the garbage I've been pulling, I'm probably the person who's been bringing up the most points and giving town a clear direction. We lynch Swordsworth or FA_Q2 who were both early wagons first. Then we use that to judge the people who came afterwards. Unless someone gives a clear case that there is an obvious Mafia I won't switch from this plan and I highly obvious you guys to do the same. Although I'll admit I'm highly tempted to kill Chaotic Neutrality.

[3dicerolling]

lolbabe replaces BirdyThePhoenix effective immediately. Welcome them heartily.

[toolenduso]

Or you're blatantly defending scum in an effort to look town.

I'm defending scum...to look town? What?

But it should be obvious if he gets lynched that I was one of the main people pushing that wagon - I'm not going to magically be free of responsibility when he flips just because I wasn't voting him.

"Free of responsibility" is the kind of wording you would use when indicating that you would be in trouble. Which implies that moosy would be flipping town, no?

Infact if he flips scum I'm sure someone (you) is going to argue I was bussing.

This makes no sense. First, I don't get why scum would bus in this situation. Second, I don't believe I've indicated that I think you're bussing scum so I don't know why you would assume that I would push that if Moosy flipped scum.

VOTE: Chaotic

P-Edit: Oh hey lolbabe, I think we played together once.

[lolbabe]

Hi everyone,

Going to start reading as soon as I get home tonight.

Hi, Tool, yes probably, it's been quite a long time since I played here last.

[MoosyDoosy]

o/ lolbabe

[Swordsworth]

I'm back from my IRL things. Catching up...

[Syndesis]

bored with my current vote so

VOTE: davesaz

[toolenduso]

Has your read on FA changed? Why vote dave? What do you think of Chaotic?

[Syndesis]

Has your read on FA changed? Why vote dave? What do you think of Chaotic?

My read on FA has sort of wilted. According to my notes, I had ~feelings~ about dave but I'm not really sure where those ~feelings~ came from. I have no strong feelings on Chaotic.

[FA_Q2]

bored with my current vote so

VOTE: davesaz

Is that your only reason to change votes?

What do you man by 'feelings' for dave? I don't really see where dave has been scummy.

[FA_Q2]

Hi everyone,

Going to start reading as soon as I get home tonight.

Hi, Tool, yes probably, it's been quite a long time since I played here last.

...
Did you manage to get caught up. We really need a catalyst to restart the momentum.

[FA_Q2]

I would also point out that CN has totally avoided my vote. He engaged tool (who had not even voted him at that time either) but said nothing about my read on him. No reaction on tool's vote either though it has only been just under 24hrs so he may not have had the chance.

[Syndesis]

The vote wasn't going anywhere.

If I could articulate my ~feelings~, I would.