UNI MUM Mafia (Day 3, Stay Gold Pony)

[Jeanne11]

In fact, I take advice from anyone except anime alliance.

[RolePlay25]

At this point, I just want to see tn eat his words about how I am scum from earlier when I flip town.

Honestly, I know his type. If you flip town, he'll just blame his bad read on your play, because he's the hero of his own life, and we're just obstacles in his way to beleaguer the poor hero. He's the plucky farmboy, I'm the evil witch, you're the great dragon. He'll just complain about you being town later.

Maybe he'll grow out of it, maybe he won't. Yeah, it's frustrating, but you gotta let it go. I'm bad at this myself, but it is good advice.

Honestly speaking, which person in the game do you think is least likely to be town right now? We've got 17 players, and I've lost track of a few myself, so I don't think it's a simple question. But I do think it's one worth asking.

[Cerberus v666]

You mean, you don't take advice, yes? And if you mean that, then yes. Seriously my friend, I I want very badly for this to not devolve into the Jeanne show on D1, thus letting everybody else get away with doing nothing. We already have one major distraction in the form of the sharky/errant dreamer/desperado shot thing, we don't need another one.

[Jeanne11]

tn

[Jeanne11]

die tn die. Retract your statement or die. Or I will die. There's no room for both of us here.

[RolePlay25]

That's fair. Ain't a bad one.

If you want to get him lynched because he's your strongest scumread, look at what he's done. Not just towards you (although you dominate his play this day) but overall. Think about why he did it, what he could have done, what he was doing. Tell us. Not everyone will listen. Some will tell you you're full of shit. Don't lash out at them, talk to them. Kick some pebbles. Start an avalanche.

[Errantparabola]

also the reason i asked (and would prefer seeing) sharky's back and forth with the mod is because i can see a situation where dram, being the tricksy scumbag he is, did technically answer all the questions honestly but sharky didn't ask the right questions; e.g. sharky asked "can i make someone X?" rather than "will doing this make someone X?"

this would mean nobody is necessarily lying and there's no bastard modding; dream interpretation is, after all, a science, and one that very few people have mastered, and while dram is clearly an expert in the field of dream interpretation, i expect sharky is a mere amateur. and if the former happened and not the latter, then the role is still exploitable

that said, it depends entirely on whether dram WILL give questions like the latter a not-vague answer and, of course, whether sharky is town (because if he isn't, then he's just going to lie either about dram giving sharky vague answers or he's going to claim he gave a certain "dream" to someone when he didn't actually)

so meh, probably a lot of rambling here but whatever

happy soon-to-be new year everybody!

I wholeheartedly agree

cerb: I expect for Sharky to flip town.

[Cerberus v666]

Errant: which means his role is as described, and he messed up his dream. That means you don't want to save the scum the trouble of killing what is likely the strongest role in the game. It's unlikely he'll be blocked, because it's a day action, and it has nearly limitless potential. All that together means, if you seriously expect the shot you have is a normal vig, and Sharky is going to flip town, you don't friggin shoot him.

[Cerberus v666]

Zmuffin: I've asked Dram A LOT of questions, very specific ones, about my own role, and he has not hesitated to answer any of them fully and expicitly. If there is a fault here, it is in sharky.

[RolePlay25]

Errant: which means his role is as described, and he messed up his dream. That means you don't want to save the scum the trouble of killing what is likely the strongest role in the game. It's unlikely he'll be blocked, because it's a day action, and it has nearly limitless potential. All that together means, if you seriously expect the shot you have is a normal vig, and Sharky is going to flip town, you don't friggin shoot him.

Yo like do you want me to go through why the role is obviously horseshit
If he actually flips damn town lucid dreamer (which is a borderline bastard role even by existing) I will eat my fucking shirt
I am figuring either creative scum in the daytalk, or third party with one of those "arson gifts" roles.

[RolePlay25]

Like "I dream that anyone who attempts to target a player tonight will instead target the next player in the playerlist."

Welcome to a game where scum shoot each other and no one knows what their results mean.

[Errantparabola]

also the reason i asked (and would prefer seeing) sharky's back and forth with the mod is because i can see a situation where dram, being the tricksy scumbag he is, did technically answer all the questions honestly but sharky didn't ask the right questions; e.g. sharky asked "can i make someone X?" rather than "will doing this make someone X?"

this would mean nobody is necessarily lying and there's no bastard modding; dream interpretation is, after all, a science, and one that very few people have mastered, and while dram is clearly an expert in the field of dream interpretation, i expect sharky is a mere amateur. and if the former happened and not the latter, then the role is still exploitable

that said, it depends entirely on whether dram WILL give questions like the latter a not-vague answer and, of course, whether sharky is town (because if he isn't, then he's just going to lie either about dram giving sharky vague answers or he's going to claim he gave a certain "dream" to someone when he didn't actually)

so meh, probably a lot of rambling here but whatever

happy soon-to-be new year everybody!

to be clear, sharky is claiming unlimited shot lucid dreamer?

[Errantparabola]

didn't mean to inlude that quote.

[Cerberus v666]

Like "I dream that anyone who attempts to target a player tonight will instead target the next player in the playerlist."

Welcome to a game where scum shoot each other and no one knows what their results mean.

Except...he specifically said his ability could only affect a single target. And the original game(Did you at least read the mods iso on it, to see the context the role came from? I did) there were a number of words which were explicitly forbidden, including a number of words that were synonyms for all/anyone.

I would be inclined to believe your example would not be allowed. As would the majority of actions which would be at the root of your doubt sharky's claim exists.

Hell, let's back this up. Do you know who suggested the vigging/desperadoing? That was Titus. You think Titus is town. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. You also believe 3dice is the one he got his idea from. So, now we're looking at a sharky/titus/3dice scum team, one of whom has the ability to invent something to someone, OR a sharky/titus/3dice/errant team, where nobody has the ability to invent anything, but someone does have the ability to send in a kill.

Can you feel the weight of improbability bearing down on your conclusion? It is exceedingly unlikely that 3-4 members of the scum team would collaborate in this blatant fashion to give one of their team a desperate shot that will ONLY buy them one day. Tomorrow we'll demand something new, some new power, and hell, we can make sure the person doing the demanding isn't part of the pool of people who provided the options today, and then OMG look he can't do this new fucking thing, so sharky dies.

He's town. His claim is real. Deal with it.

pedit: He has said nothing about shots, which makes the assumption be that he is unlimited, but it could be wrong.

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think it would be a bastard role (any more than shiro's "i don't know what i am" is a bastard role and given dram's stance on insane cops, i'd wager that he doesn't consider these things bastard)

i am starting to think it's entirely possible dram put the role in the game and never intended for dreams to play out the way the dreamer thought they would

i imagine dram could very well be sitting on his throne, sipping wine from a goblet, listening to nickelback on his ipod, and looking down on us with an evil grin right now

[Cerberus v666]

Yes, and if that's the case, if things are DELIBERATELY NOT PLAYING OUT THE WAY THE PLAYER INTENDED, then dram is a bastard.

And he's already said he's not a bastard in this game.

If, however, Sharky screwed up in his phrasing, or didn't ask the right questions...well, thats a different matter entirely, and seems completely possible.

[Cerberus v666]

Just curious, is anyone opposed to errant shooting tn, other than tn himself? I don't think anyone's opposed that.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey, EAP, will you be informed when your reflexive power is triggered? That is, if zmuffin goes ahead nad uses his useless power now to prevent anybody else from possibly learning your alignment, would you know that it happened, or would you have no idea?

[RolePlay25]

Man, like... no. This is not the Monkey's Paw power, and if it is, we have a MONKEY PAW POWER.

PEdit: We have literal contradictory claims.

[zMuffinMan]

@sir berus

i don't think whether or not his claim is real has any bearing on his alignment

do you think he's town for reasons outside the fact that you think he's telling the truth?

Yes, and if that's the case, if things are DELIBERATELY NOT PLAYING OUT THE WAY THE PLAYER INTENDED, then dram is a bastard.

no, not really

supposing the role is real:

sharky gives dreams
dram "interprets" those dreams and comes up with something (in the same way dram interpreted your upick choice and came up with something)

would you consider it bastard if you submitted "serial killer" as your upick choice and he didn't make you a serial killer?

[DiamondSentinel]

Yes, and if that's the case, if things are DELIBERATELY NOT PLAYING OUT THE WAY THE PLAYER INTENDED, then dram is a bastard.

And he's already said he's not a bastard in this game.

If, however, Sharky screwed up in his phrasing, or didn't ask the right questions...well, thats a different matter entirely, and seems completely possible.

No, that doesn't mean it's bastard. He could be interpreting a gun to mean a vigilante, as it most often is called. For example, if you have the ability to make gadgets, you will likely call a "1-shot Vig" maker a gun.

He should have made the wording as specific as possible. If he didn't, that's his own stupidity.

[Cerberus v666]

Zmuffin: Point taken, I meant ot make an EBWOP post clarifying that I meant his claim was real, and thus he wasnt' lying, and thus RP's main reasoning for thinking he should be shot at, that is, that he is lying, is wrong. I just kinda jumped some logical connections there. I have no reason to think he's town, but I don't feel it's worth the loss of that role, EVEN IF HE IS SCUM, if he's obligated to do as we request.

DS: That's what I just said? If he is deliberately misinterpreting things, in spite of reasonable rational interpretation that leads to the result the player desires, that is bastard. If sharky screwed up and asked for the wrong thing(or town screwed up and gave him bad suggestions in his wording), then that's not bastard.

[RolePlay25]

Man like, that would be on the level of me saying "Track Muffinman" in a PM and getting the result "There's no player named MuffinMan in the game"

[RolePlay25]

I mean I'm willing to concede that tickles Dramonic's fancy, if that's what happened.

But I would be more than a little annoyed.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. I mean, theoretically, in that circumstance, the optimal dream would have been "I dream that <target> will use a desperado shot on someone before the end of D1."

That basically guarantees that the target will have a desperado shot, and makes it effectively compulsive because the power is being used before the end of D1.

If that's the case, it's a dumb hoop to go through, and I feel really really sorry for sharky(who is relatively new) being put in a position where he would have had to ask a lengthy series of questions ignoring standard assumptions to figure out how his role was intended to work.