Machina Mafia (Game over!)

[DiamondSentinel]

There's a classic fallacy: Assuming one thing is always true, AKA misrepping. And besides, you aren't even at the top of my scum list.

[DiamondSentinel]

Oh yes, that's the name. It's the "Black and White" fallacy.

[Void Protectorate]

We see there has been some suspicion toward us, and we suppose we should get it over with. We did expect that to happen sooner or later, but certainly not for that post. We get the accusation though, and we indeed were thinking about Numbers and Courier being scum together when we wrote that post. It had been discussed at the time, and we had noted Courier defending Numbers before that. However, we don't think Courier would have gone that far trying to save Numbers, not when it would have been safer to simply keep quiet and not rock the boat. Our conclusion remains that Courier is town.

It's strange that you get that accusation, because everybody I talk to, including my own hydra partner, keeps talking to me as if I lost it. I half expect Nacho to show up and call me an idiot for reading too much into that post. And I'm even starting to think I went too far into the conf. bias range. So I don't get this at all. I feel like you're just trying to appease me.

where the fuck did this snowman wagon come from

Do you have a reason to hate the wagon?

Tammy/Nacho/whichever of you is gonna be around this week I should be more active starting tomm so let's try and hook up this game day. Specifically am curious as to what you think about CN now.

Vote: The Random Encounter

The crap?

While I didn't do a post by post analysis of Snarky, I actually think he is more likely town than scum.

So, not liking this wagon on him at all.

My other head asked already and you never answered: Why do you think Snarky is more likely to be town?

I've actually reread a bit since: do you think the manner in which Marquis posted 2077 comes from scum? He realizes the potential negative utility of the role, and instead of fucking around or worse, having his scum receiver buddies just target him indefinitely without ever claiming, he does that

Given how I understand his role to work, why does he even announce it as town in the first place? That guarantees scum receivers visit him and become untargetable. The best move as town would be to zip it and let scum not know his role existed. There's zero town motivation in announcing that.

Pretty sure void is scum after that post

I'm sure we can discuss this all you want when you decide to stop commenting from the sidelines.

For the specific reasons for wanting me lynched was because I was posting reads without reasons which is lack of content. That is still policy, right or wrong.

Lack of content is a very good reason to lynch someone.

@Imperium: I'm not promising to be around a lot in the next few days, but I'd like to try to have some one on one time.

Unvote
Vote: CourierNew

Void can yell at me later if he wants, but I don't think he'll disagree here.

-Bulba

MOD EDIT: added a colon again.

[Imperium]

So I can say pretty confidently that LLD is town.

No scum would dare to list their own teammate as near conftown levels.

I would.

In mafiaceptioin, Ranger did just that to her teammate BBMolla. In fact, after BB was correctly lynched day two and scum claimed with the way he trolled after he was lynched, Ranger was screaming about how it was a mislynch. (Also of note, I noticed a post of BB's that I considered an attempt at a fake townslip based on knowledge that the scum team would have, something that was in fact public knowledge - whether or not scum had day talk - and she responded to my questioning about it that it was definitely a townslip.)

Fine, then lynch LLD. Hell if I care. Wisdom had a list of solid scum reads and died, and she wasn't one of them. I have many reasons to think she isn't scum. But nobody is listening to me.

Nobody is voting for LLD; the lynch is snarkysnowman.

I'll give you a little tip here: mafia is part social game and nobody will listen to you with the way you're playing and interacting with people. You half have a chip on your shoulder, half just talk to people rudely. You're new here, you have no clout for your behavior and then complaining that people aren't listening to you. If you want people to listen to you, treat them with respect, explain yourself and then maybe people will listen to you.

I have LLD as a solid null. There's something I'm hoping to see her do that would indicate her alignment. I was hoping to see her do it today. Maybe it will come later.

What I'm pointing out is that what did you just call it? Oh the black and white fallacy of "no scum would do that." Scum do do that, and our friendly just freshly flipped scum did in fact do that in a recently ended game. I would expect a scum!Ranger in fact to put LLD in her strong town pile because LLD if scum would be most like to be the one to go deep into the game and bring it to the end. Alternatively, I can also see Ranger too easily town reading LLD if she was concerned it would otherwise look bad for her, but if she was buddying LLD then there's something I would be looking for ala how Ranger interacted with/treated bulbazack in that recently ended game that I haven't gone back to look at yet.

Moral of the story is using "no scum would do that" to confirm town someone ends up biting you in the ass more often than not, and I'm pointing out that that is not a good reason to confirm town someone.

Oh and btw why do you think that wisdom wasn't scum reading LLD? She was his major push before he moved on to numbers, and here is his last reads list:

End of D1 reads; (assuming numbers-scum)

Town: {Stairway to the Abyss, The Random Encounter, Spiffeh, Void Protectorate, Minami no Hana, Courier New}
Nulltown: {hi im Yakko, Imperium, DiamondSentinel, SnarkySnowman}
Null: {PeregrineV, Netherspite, Super Dupondt Bros, Firebringer}
Nullscum: {Firebringer, Lady Lambdadelta}

Don't really like my reads. I fear I have some scum as town.

[Imperium]

@Imperium: I'm not promising to be around a lot in the next few days, but I'd like to try to have some one on one time.


-Bulba

I will be here. Well I don't know yet what we're doing New Years Eve/Day, but besides that I'm on vacation and prepping for next semester, so it's really easy for me to carve out some time at the moment.

[Stairway to the Abyss]

Blah blah blah wall fight

Snarky is scum
Courier may be scum
FB is probably scum
LLD is town
DS is town

Long shots if I am wrong are Imperium and Nether

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Tammy, I'll be honest with you, whatever it is you're looking for you're probably not going to find it, one way or another.

It's really hard to be yourself when all your motivation has been trashed. I just feel emotionally drained on mafia, I've no idea why I joined a large theme. This happens every time.

To be fair, this isn't strictly to blame, given the blitz that just ended was a major factor in feeling this way.

I've got to find a way to motivate myself into this game again but this fucking snowman wagon isn't it and it's cancerous and growing so slowly and cannot be town driven. There's wayyyyyy too much apathy for this to be a scum lynch.

And I don't know if I care enough to like, fight against it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, talk to me, engage me, pressure me. Do something to force me to respond, because if you don't I'm litterally going to fall back into apathy where I can't bring myself to post anything at all, and this shitty Snowman wagon will fucking go through and everyone will be even further driven into the status quo.

[Imperium]

Buh, yeah I figured what I was hoping I'd see I wouldn't. I followed the blitz game and when it ended I thought I'd see a fire in you for Nacho. You had him dead to rights from like his first post, so I was hoping that that game would ripple a bit into this one. I was confident that if you were town here you would read us right based on how easily you read him there, but I was hoping you'd kinda put us under a microscope a bit and maybe the way you did it could help me read you better.

But then I saw how much you internalized that loss and I figured that wouldn't happen. You shouldn't internalize that loss though btw; I mean I know how much you like to win, but your reads were great and you made the game fun to follow. The stars just didn't align to get them lynched; the town just couldn't really come together for whatever reason, and it wasn't your fault. It is a team game and you can't always carry everything yourself. I wanted to give you a virtual hug or say something after the game because I felt bad for how you took it but I felt weird about it, but now I wish I would have because I don't want you to interpret this as anything other than me thinking you played a great game and you shouldn't feel bad.

I'm getting ready to run out the door but I we will engage you and get you in the game because if you're town I want that Lexi that was just on fire to get in here. When you're paying attention and really in the game, your reads can be really on point. I think you picked up on something no one else noticed with UT in fantasy camp, and I want that. But I also know or think I do that you sometimes don't really get into things until day three or four or so in larges, but I don't want to wait that long to be able to go okay yeah I feel good about LLD. And I don't want to die leaving nebulous watch out for her with people just ignoring it because I'm silly. If I were good at doing the fake wagon thing, I'd start one on you to see how you reacted but that's never been my forte.

Anyway, I have to go, so later.

[Firebringer]

There's a classic fallacy: Assuming one thing is always true, AKA misrepping. And besides, you aren't even at the top of my scum list.

Oh yes, that's the name. It's the "Black and White" fallacy.

You addressing me?

I didn't call you scummy, I am saying how stupid you shitting on activity was.

[Firebringer]

Blah blah blah wall fight

Snarky is scum
Courier may be scum
FB is probably scum
LLD is town
DS is town

Long shots if I am wrong are Imperium and Nether

Your gut sucks.

[DiamondSentinel]

There's a classic fallacy: Assuming one thing is always true, AKA misrepping. And besides, you aren't even at the top of my scum list.

Oh yes, that's the name. It's the "Black and White" fallacy.

You addressing me?

I didn't call you scummy, I am saying how stupid you shitting on activity was.

And I was saying how stupid you saying that I'm wrong about it.

And if that's not what you're saying, then why bother saying it? That's another fallacy! (Straw man)

Blah blah blah wall fight

Snarky is scum
Courier may be scum
FB is probably scum
LLD is town
DS is town

Long shots if I am wrong are Imperium and Nether

Your gut sucks.

Not my diagnosis. I feel like that's your way of OMGUSing. His reads are valid, but I want to know more reason behind said reasons.

[Firebringer]

And I was saying how stupid you saying that I'm wrong about it.

And if that's not what you're saying, then why bother saying it? That's another fallacy! (Straw man)

You are getting ridiculous.

My points are:

A) You were shitting on me activity.
B) You haven't been as active.

Do you want to refute either of these?
Or am I right?

Cause theres no fallacy in there.

Your play is shitty, that doesn't make you scum, I actually think you are town.

[DiamondSentinel]

I actually do want to refute the latter. I've got 3 times as many posts as you, and third most total, after Titus and the deceased Wisdom.

You might want to actually check the ISO before you open your mouth next time.

[DiamondSentinel]

So you're right. There is no fallacy. Just a flat out untrue statement.

[Firebringer]

This conversation isn't getting anywhere, and I am certain it isn't helping us read each other, so I am going to drop it.

So you want to explain why you think Stairways reads are right? Since you tend to agree with them.

[DiamondSentinel]

Well, most of it hinges on an unfinished game that I can't discuss until it ends.

But it's actually Wisdom I'm following. If he was killed N1, there's a reason for it, and it's not because he had a powerful role. I doubt scum figured out what he was. He was obvious on to something, but never finished it. That's why I'm looking at loose ends he saw. Not finished products.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Buh, yeah I figured what I was hoping I'd see I wouldn't. I followed the blitz game and when it ended I thought I'd see a fire in you for Nacho. You had him dead to rights from like his first post, so I was hoping that that game would ripple a bit into this one. I was confident that if you were town here you would read us right based on how easily you read him there, but I was hoping you'd kinda put us under a microscope a bit and maybe the way you did it could help me read you better.

But then I saw how much you internalized that loss and I figured that wouldn't happen. You shouldn't internalize that loss though btw; I mean I know how much you like to win, but your reads were great and you made the game fun to follow. The stars just didn't align to get them lynched; the town just couldn't really come together for whatever reason, and it wasn't your fault. It is a team game and you can't always carry everything yourself. I wanted to give you a virtual hug or say something after the game because I felt bad for how you took it but I felt weird about it, but now I wish I would have because I don't want you to interpret this as anything other than me thinking you played a great game and you shouldn't feel bad.

I'm getting ready to run out the door but I we will engage you and get you in the game because if you're town I want that Lexi that was just on fire to get in here. When you're paying attention and really in the game, your reads can be really on point. I think you picked up on something no one else noticed with UT in fantasy camp, and I want that. But I also know or think I do that you sometimes don't really get into things until day three or four or so in larges, but I don't want to wait that long to be able to go okay yeah I feel good about LLD. And I don't want to die leaving nebulous watch out for her with people just ignoring it because I'm silly. If I were good at doing the fake wagon thing, I'd start one on you to see how you reacted but that's never been my forte.

Anyway, I have to go, so later.

I.... thanks. Internet hug accepted and gratefully felt.

[Netherspite]

Can you clarify what points you thought were good?

Sure.

1. Weird and unconsistent reasoning for defending the

1234567890

's slot:

Yesterday while several of us correctly identified that numbers was scum, based in part on the ika scumtell which Ranger made even scummier with her excuse for it, Marquis claimed that we were misrepping the ika scum tell. He then tried to corroborate Ranger's take of why ika wasn't around by first saying that he thought that ika tried to stay away from games that were toxic, then later saying that ika likes to focus on one game at a time. When we also pointed out that it was also a problem with Ranger's posting he basically gave a nonread and pushed against Wisdom. He admits to Wisdom that he's not really town reading Ranger then was like lol my Ranger reads suck, but that doesn't make sense when he claimed that the big reason he hated the ranger was was because "fuck this mob".

2. Meta: In a game that just finished

Marquis

have seen how

Ranger

reads his scumbuddies but didn't realize what's

Imperium

is talking about like he wasn't reading him at all:

NOW mafiaception is over, he's seen Ranger as scum, he's seen how he reads his buddies, he should recognize what I'm doing there but instead he made some vague inference about my play which doesn't actually show any indication that he read my post.

3.

Marquis

wasn't really expecting to die. He was more AtE'ing and attempting to gain towncred because "scum would never do that":

I don't believe for one second that he actually believed that the Grand Machinist was going to vig kill him yesterday and anyone calling him town off of his antics are just buying into what scum who do things that seem counter to scum behavior do. Have you ever seen a vig kill someone who asks to be vigged? Because I haven't. But I have seen scum be "willing" to be lynched or vigged for the town. They almost never are because scum would be more survivalist. I can see scum throwing up chaos though as two scum are being wagoned.

4. There was no signs of

Courier New

being concerned about their role being dangerous for the town before their wagon started growing:

Can you explain why there was not one peep about his horrible role and him needing to die before we started pushing him? IF he actually thought his role was so horrible and he needed to be taken out why wasn't that brought up especially when the whole conversation about Hana's role was brought up? There were potential setup discussions, people talking about how best to use their roles, debates over whether there should be some sort of claim. But there was absolutely no response from either head to any of that, not even a response to Hana's claim brouhaha. Why not? And why not, if his role is so terrible that as he says later when being pushed that it's a role that should not make it to night, that it wasn't brought up before?

Addition from me: they aren't concerned about it now that they aren't under the fire anymore either.

5. Completely ignoring those who visited him despite saying that no town should do that:

OH that reminded me, in that post you think is so town he says no town should visit him. We have two people who targeted him last night. He's not even looked in their direction. That bugs me as well and doesn't really do anything to make me think that yesterday's behavior was anything but an act.

[Minami no Hana]

Well looks like my hydra partner has abandoned me (surprise, surprise!), but he also may be busy with real life, so i'll let fate decide what happens, i'll stop posting and if GIF doesn't come back and do stuff then we will be replaced, because as i said before, i literally have no desire right now to play and need a long break (a real long one), and GIF promised he'd cover for me in the meantime (but hasn't done that).

~Sakura

[Kagami]

Official Vote Count

SnarkySnowman

(6): Spiffeh, Stairway to the Abyss, DiamondSentinel, Netherspite, PeregrineV, The Random Encounter

Imperium

(1): Courier New

DiamondSentinel

(1): SnarkySnowman

Courier New

(1): Void Protectorate

The Random Encounter

(1): Imperium

Firebringer

(1): hi im Yakko

Not Voting

(4): Super Dupondt Bros, Minami no Hana, Firebringer, Lady Lambdadelta

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[SnarkySnowman]

Blah blah blah wall fight

Snarky is scum
Courier may be scum
FB is probably scum
LLD is town
DS is town

Long shots if I am wrong are Imperium and Nether

Your gut sucks.

This.

Courier probably isn't scum. FB probably isn't. LLD could be scum but is def not conf town. DS is probably scum. You're definitely scum.

[Kamigami]

Marquis replaces Courier New.

Also, a reminder that Day 2 ends in (expired on 2016-01-04 15:01:17)

[Void Protectorate]

I've got to find a way to motivate myself into this game again but this fucking snowman wagon isn't it and it's cancerous and growing so slowly and cannot be town driven. There's wayyyyyy too much apathy for this to be a scum lynch.

Who do you think is scum then? I mean, I partially see your point, because that wagon got too big too fast and there's no resistance, but then, I also see how he's scum, and I want him lynched. Frankly, I really don't want to see him alive, but Imperium is bringing up some good points, and they're right, I really can't see Courier New acting in the way they did near the end of the day. I think I'd much prefer that lynch or one on SDB, but if there's not much movement in the next day or so, I'm going to move our vote back. Anyway, I didn't know if you had any suggestions for who'd make a better wagon than Snowman.

@Firebringer: Why are you ignoring my posts?

-Bulba

[Firebringer]

@Firebringer: Why are you ignoring my posts?

I ignore everyones posts, don't feel like I single you out