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Post Post #2475 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:14 am

Post by Imperium »

In post 2451, Void Protectorate wrote:Also, that post where he votes Courier is the first time he mentions Courier all day. In fact, there's only 6 mentions of Courier in Snarky's entire ISO, and those two posts make up 4 of those. I'm assuming "not suspecting someone but finding their behavior" was supposed to end with "scummy" but how can you say that when there's nothing in his ISO that says as much. He says it about Wisdom, absolutely (that's who he was gunning for prior to voting Snarky), but not about courier. At least it's an oppurtunistic hop onto the CN wagon and at most its a blatant attempt to save Numbers by getting on the counterwagon. (well, that may not be the most but still).

Why is it a big deal that this is the first time that CN was mentioned in his ISO? Snarky doesn't talk much. Snarky isn't incredibly transparent about reads. It's not like he had a bunch of developed reads elsewhere that he soon abandoned for reads that were completely wrong and pro-scum.

The sentence was supposed to end with "disgusting", which was Snowman's attitude towards the self-vote when he originally voted for CN. It doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to see Snowman's read on CN starting out as a policy lynch for self-voting and then turning into a scumread after the whole "lynch me" debacle aka if you find self-voting to be antitown and worthy of a policy lynch, it makes sense to find campaigning for your own lynch to be a scummy action.

The idea that he called him scum to justify being on the counterwagon to scum is dumb as hell: he had a reason to be on that counterwagon already (he thought numbers was town, policy lynch); there's no reason he needed to make up a new one, not to mention believing that scum actually approach counterwagoning their partner that way is :/.
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Post Post #2476 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:15 am

Post by Imperium »

In post 2466, Antihero wrote:i don't need your snark, nacho

I DON'T NEED IT

sorry :(
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Post Post #2477 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:18 am

Post by Imperium »

In post 2473, The Random Encounter wrote:I'm having difficulties understanding the reason why he would come up with the act to separate himself from the numbers wagon when there are more subtle ways in doing so. The previous sentence there is where my null read comes from.

So you think that the reason the action could be coming from town is because you don't see why he would distance from Numbers so blatantly when he could do it subtly?
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Post Post #2478 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:18 am

Post by Antihero »

when can tammy and i do some in vino veritas bonding time?
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Post Post #2479 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:20 am

Post by DiamondSentinel »

In post 2472, Antihero wrote:that was fakegod that said that

but...yeah this time if we have a public watcher result on scum making the nightkill we can ... like... lynch them this time


Last time I'm going to discuss previous games, but anyways. When the heck did that happen?
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Post Post #2480 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:21 am

Post by Imperium »

In post 2478, Antihero wrote:when can tammy and i do some in vino veritas bonding time?

whenever you have useful things to say <3
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Post Post #2481 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:02 pm

Post by Void Protectorate »

In post 2377, DiamondSentinel wrote:Snarky, try using that brain of yours and actually think, for once.

Wisdom was PMuch town leader. If nothing he had to say other than the Numbers lynch was true, then
why would scum kill him
? He hadn't even crumbed a PR.

We should be looking at things that Wisdom said, which NOBODY ELSE IS DOING.

Wisdom trusted me (even though he said I was wrong, which admittedly I was) and a few select others, and therefore I trust them. I trust judgement of the dead.


We should never just de facto lynch the dead town's scum reads. There are multiple reasons why Wisdom could have been the kill besides being onto scum, such as, I don't know, being one of the most obvious town players in the game. He could have also been lynched to incite the reaction that you're giving and potentially lead to a chain of mislynches. There are ways to do NKA, but none of them involve just blindly looking at a dead player's scum reads.

In post 2420, hi im Yakko wrote:
In post 12, Netherspite wrote:VOTE: Courier New

I prefer Tahoma.


This feels weird to me. Especially later on when nether starts scum reading courier. One of their pists they had me and ds as scum. The reasons were derivative? I'm probably using that word wrong. Essentially tgeir reasons for scum reading us you see in every game.


RVS votes aren't scummy. I'm not sure why you would even think so. It feels like you're padding a case.

In post 2420, hi im Yakko wrote:
Is nether scum? Maybe. I'm certainly starting to think so. The way courier new became scum for nether didnt feel organic.


More padding. Speaking of inorganic, that's all I'm getting from your Nether push.

In post 2425, hi im Yakko wrote:
Also @bulba would you mind updating your reads list. Just yours if you wouldnt mind.


I don't believe I ever gave my reads list in the first place.

In post 2433, Imperium wrote:There bulbaxack scum read you and voted you day one. You just told him he didn't want to do that. I town read that so hard.


I know, right? And that tell was spot on.

In post 2437, Marquis wrote:also i think the fact that i'm still posting while under pressure even if it's meh and indecisive shit should probably confirm me as town to anyone who actually has a good sense of my town meta


I wouldn't exactly call it under pressure. Only Nacho/Tammy and I are pushing you, and Imperium is not even trying to vote you at this point, leaving just us on your wagon. So no, not pressure.

In post 2449, hi im Yakko wrote:Responding to supposed scum in a way that you think is scummy. Is that meta? It's certainly interesting. How about responding in a hypocritical way to hypocritical attiudes?

Knock a little harder void. You have yet to interact. Your play is quoting and commenting your thoughts. Not interacting. You may call that an interaction. But like a chair is not a table vice versa. Quoting x and saying y is different than wuoting x and asking y. You have come to a conclusion in your posts and leave no room for discussion which breed arguments not discourse. People interacting with you is different than you interacting with them. Whatever I've decided to transcend the situation.


How noble of you... :roll:

In post 2460, Imperium wrote:
What do you think of Yakko's recent comment on Netherspite?


Artificial as crap.

Also, can we get some support on Marquis here? Because I know you think they're scum, but your pushing Bork is doing nothing to increase pressure there and to reduce the possibility of that Snarky lynch that you think is not a good idea. I'm willing to work with you here if you give me support on Marquis, but if not, we're going to head back to Snarky.

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Post Post #2482 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:19 pm

Post by Void Protectorate »

In post 2470, Imperium wrote:
In post 2451, Void Protectorate wrote:Sure, but at the time Wisdom was really raring and going after Numbers. I do get your point about it being a new-player kind of case, but it feels too coincidental to my liking and like scum who thinks his partner is more attacked than it seems at the time.

Yes, and Wisdom is a big scary player. I don't often see new scum whipping out the chainsaw against extremely aggressive players in game, especially when their partner is the one being attacked; Snarky would have to be dumb as a bag of rocks to believe that he would be able to defend his partner against Wisdom with those posts, and he would also have to be one hell of a scum player to realize that it would be a move that would be too scummy to come from scum (and his inability to defend himself says that probably isn't the case). The simple answer, and the answer that makes the most sense, is that Snowman made a bad read.

I get the feeling that and his attempted wagon analysis were supposed to go somewhere but got aborted. So it's less he's too dumb to believe he could defend his partner and more he never got around to/got the chance to make a proper defense.

In post 2473, The Random Encounter wrote:To separate himself from the numbers wagon.

I'm having difficulties understanding the reason why he would come up with the act to separate himself from the numbers wagon when there are more subtle ways in doing so. The previous sentence there is where my null read comes from.

I agree that what what Marquis did, he did on his own, not fearing the pressure that was on him at the time.

But he still completely blew up at Wisdom for very little reason? Sure, he may have said that it was because of Wisdom's Number scumread, but the entire thing was way too theatrical to be a reasonable town response.

In post 2474, Imperium wrote:
In post 2451, Void Protectorate wrote:Linked as in so blatantly voting the counterwagon close to Numbers getting lynched?

The key is that he voted the counterwagon far too late; by the time Snarky voted, it was clear that Numbers was going to get lynched (they ended up being lynched only a little while later). Now, it's possible that Snarky simply couldn't read the momentum against the slot and didn't have a scumpartner that would point it out for him, it would still be a move that would be pretty ballsy from SS as scum.

I don't think ballsiness has anything to do with it. It was a bad jump and a bad move, and Snarky's rightly being called scum for it.

In post 2475, Imperium wrote:Why is it a big deal that this is the first time that CN was mentioned in his ISO? Snarky doesn't talk much. Snarky isn't incredibly transparent about reads. It's not like he had a bunch of developed reads elsewhere that he soon abandoned for reads that were completely wrong and pro-scum.

That's true, but it's also not like scum can't vote for bad or barely-existing reasons, either.

In post 2475, Imperium wrote:The sentence was supposed to end with "disgusting", which was Snowman's attitude towards the self-vote when he originally voted for CN. It doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination to see Snowman's read on CN starting out as a policy lynch for self-voting and then turning into a scumread after the whole "lynch me" debacle aka if you find self-voting to be antitown and worthy of a policy lynch, it makes sense to find campaigning for your own lynch to be a scummy action.

The idea that he called him scum to justify being on the counterwagon to scum is dumb as hell: he had a reason to be on that counterwagon already (he thought numbers was town, policy lynch); there's no reason he needed to make up a new one, not to mention believing that scum actually approach counterwagoning their partner that way is :/.

I don't think scum approach it that way in general, but newbscum might in a sort of "well I'll just say policy--oh, wait, I should be hard scumreading him, shouldn't I?" I won't deny that Marquis's self-vote stuff is effectively alignment-neutral as far as reactions go, but.

P-EDIT: Oh, cool, we CAN be on the hydra at the same time! I think.

Also, I agree with Bulb re: Bork.
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Post Post #2483 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:23 pm

Post by Stairway to the Abyss »

Yo! Anti, your slot was weird as fuck yesterday.

Join me on scum Snarky please. :)

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Post Post #2484 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:34 pm

Post by hi im Yakko »

Thinking I'm gonna vote snarky.

@bulba you did update your list.

Rvs votes are definitely scummy.
When the opposition are here you tell them nothing except where the toilets are, but you lie about that right. Fuckity bye
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Post Post #2485 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:08 pm

Post by Imperium »

Bulb, I'll talk to Tammy about it when she's feeling better.
Yakko, if you vote Snarky before Antihero has the chance to catch up and give reads, I will very happily join Stairway and Void in lynching you tomorrow.
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Post Post #2486 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:13 pm

Post by Spiffeh »

Hey guys Disney rocks

In all seriousness I'll try to answer Tammy later tonight.
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Post Post #2487 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:18 pm

Post by hi im Yakko »

VOTE: snarkysnowman
When the opposition are here you tell them nothing except where the toilets are, but you lie about that right. Fuckity bye
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Post Post #2488 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:22 pm

Post by Void Protectorate »

In post 2484, hi im Yakko wrote:Thinking I'm gonna vote snarky.

@bulba you did update your list.

Rvs votes are definitely scummy.

Lol.

In post 2487, hi im Yakko wrote:VOTE: snarkysnowman

Welp.

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Post Post #2489 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:24 pm

Post by Kagami »

Official Vote Count


SnarkySnowman
(7): Spiffeh, Stairway to the Abyss, DiamondSentinel, Netherspite, PeregrineV, The Random Encounter, hi im Yakko
Imperium
(1): Marquis
Marquis
(1): Void Protectorate
DiamondSentinel
(1): SnarkySnowman
The Random Encounter
(1): Imperium

Not Voting
(4): Antihero, Super Dupondt Bros, Firebringer, Lady Lambdadelta

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Post Post #2490 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:50 pm

Post by Imperium »

yakko still town
wagon still dumb
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Post Post #2491 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:55 pm

Post by Imperium »

again, would love the chance to actually interact with my scumread today ~
would love if antihero would get a chance to actually catch up and do things ~
would love if snarky came back and did things ~
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Post Post #2492 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:08 pm

Post by Super Dupondt Bros »

Happy new year.

Sadly, we have nothing else to contribute at this time. We have fallen almost completely out of touch with this game over the holidays. We have been reading, but done nothing else.

Given that Snarky appears to be at L-1, we should prioritize reading him. We can recall him accusing some of our town reads of being scum for no apparent reason and doing pretty much nothing else. Certainly no town read, but we're not about to blindly hammer either.
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Post Post #2493 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:44 pm

Post by Imperium »

Also, my history with Bork:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200 - Bork Town, me town. Told him to do more, never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - Bork town, me town. Never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200 - Bork town, me town. Never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38561 - Bork town, me town. Never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=36072 - Bork town, me town. Never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5156890 - bork town, me town. troll voted him for all of three pages, had him as pretty damn town throughout.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=28626 - me town, bork scum. shot bork day 2.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1950 - bork town, me town. i voted him because he was jailed on a night with no kill (or some similar role interaction), then read him as town, then mislynched myself and suggested popcorn lynch to the final scum.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - bork town, me town. never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25367 - bork scum, me town. didn't catch him as scum, but also didn't townread him and got distracted pushing through a lynch on his partner for the day.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - bork town, me town. never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200 - bork town, me town. never voted.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=2300 - bork scum, me town. this is the game where I had the worst read on bork: I was scumreading him strongly early, backed off. Got another strong scumread on him later, backed off. Ended up lynching the slot after he replaced out.

Bork is one of a few players who I know how to read very well and have had very good success reading him in the past. This isn't a case of "oh we played a few games together and he does this as scum sometimes", but is a case of I know him well, he's transparent as shit most of the time, this isn't how he approaches a game as town. This read isn't coming out of nowhere, this isn't just a "yeah I'm guessing bork is probably scum or whatever" type of read, this is a read where if you vote him and lynch him he will flip scum.

Tammy doesn't feel as strongly about this as I do and was waiting for him to actually come back and respond and do things before started push pushing the slot, but I really don't think we're wrong here.
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Post Post #2494 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:51 pm

Post by Marquis »

antiiiiii
i think your slot is town (assuming ur new-sakura)
please tell them I'm town
and then vote nachotammy with me if they ignore me being town again probably
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Post Post #2495 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:56 pm

Post by Imperium »

marquis vote bork
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Post Post #2496 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:14 pm

Post by Imperium »

In post 214, The Random Encounter wrote:Assuming this was Marquis (doesn't look like Pie has posted at all this game):
The one game I've been in with both of you that I remember extensively (X-men) she nailed the shit out of your slot
and I observed enough there to realize that she has a history of trying to sort you early
Also I find it hard to believe that the real answer to Titus' question wasn't "I just missed/forgot about it" instead of this meditated thought process culminating in ignoring her and this whole exchange looks like trying to keep Titus at arm's length

This push supposes that Titus can read Marquis extensively without being to tell both heads apart, which is a bit strange to me (especially when Bork doesn't pretend to have that same proficiency but can tell the two apart easily enough). It's also suggesting that Marquis was so afraid of being read by Titus that he didn't sign and refused to make it clear which head was posting, which is a strange line of reasoning to say the least.

In post 752, The Random Encounter wrote:I was townreading yakko, maybe snarky, weak townread on Titus/whoever the other person in her hydra is not really for content but for sheer force of will so far
courier initially rubbed me the wrong way but I like Marquis responses to me; keeping null until I see stuff from pie
I see Spiffeh engaging with others about me but I'm not sure why unless he's townreading them and scumreading me (or is suspicious of me) - engaging with me should be job #1 for sorting me - I don't really have a read here but I find the approach a little unnecessarily oblique

Looking at minami, DS...ika?

Early reads were townreads on Yakko, Snarky, Titus. Scumreads on Minami, DS, Ika.
I find these problematic because all of them are so shallow; yakko is town for a response to a read, snarky is town for saying two people were buddying, titus is town for "sheer force of will" (what?), Minami is scum because she said Wisdom was spamming, DS is scum because he tried to take a stance but didn't and agreed with Titus when Titus didn't have a plan (what?), Ika is scum because he was reading Titus as scum for no reason, and I find it problematic because a majority of Bork's reads have to do with engagement and there's none of that in these reads, just dropping observations and vanishing. Contrast this with his early game in this game, where his style was more driving a lynch on a suspect until he got a better read from them and then moving on.

In post 1347, The Random Encounter wrote:Catching up and I'm mostly reading ika/ranger slot right now since that's the wagon du jour; I already didn't like ika's opening

Their scumreads are Wisdom/Stairway/Imperium (which I'm not a fan of at face value because that's a list of 3 people I am not scumreading, 2 of which I am p solidly townreading, although the Imperium read for me is hovering maybe just north of null after Tammy's 'hey guys shut the fuck up' wall) but also I see no real attempt to explain any of those reads at the point they are declared or anywhere around there in their ISO (I got to 1173 and it looks like they're trying to explain reads there so I'll deal with that in a separate post after I read it

@Tammy: if you're around and wanna talk, let's talk

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This is also the extent of bork's push on numbers, which is not really great, and soft in a way that really, really doesn't seem like Bork-town. Bork didn't interact with the numbers slot in any way whatsoever and the numbers slot never really interacted with him, which doesn't really seem that great to me either.

In post 1361, The Random Encounter wrote:I'm not interested in lynching Titus at all; if she is what I think she is she's probably not scum (this is just a role I can see going more to town than to scum). I think.

And this is such a lame, lame reason for townreading Titus (especially considering mod has described how roles were generated in this game and this is completely wrong); I think if Bork was town, he'd see why Titus was town a little more clearly/would be more interested in actually forming a read on her here. I think he's townreading her because she's not getting lynched this game and that's that.

Bork's push on Minami was terrible when the slot was obviously town and pushing them required ignoring a bunch of town signals so he could pick up on the bad logic pieces.

In post 2290, The Random Encounter wrote:I agree w/ spiffeh's 2255: there is a seam between snowman's 'sure I'll policy lynch this chump' and 'this is in my scum frontrunner list'

I hate how he abandons all of his lead from yesterday just to sheep Spiffeh; again, this isn't how bork has ever played as town and I really, really don't like him following the Spiffeh reason and being completely uninterested in forming a read of his own or reading through again to see if his earlier feelings were right/wrong.

In post 2299, The Random Encounter wrote:I've actually reread a bit since: do you think the manner in which Marquis posted 2077 comes from scum? He realizes the potential negative utility of the role, and instead of fucking around or worse, having his scum receiver buddies just target him indefinitely without ever claiming, he does that

And this is a terrible reason to townread someone for reasons I've explained already.
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Post Post #2497 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:46 pm

Post by DiamondSentinel »

LOL @ Void using WIFOM as "valid logic" to try and discredit me.
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Post Post #2498 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:12 pm

Post by Netherspite »

UNVOTE:

To avoid derphammers before
Antihero
catches up.
Now modding:
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(Day 2)
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Goon
Goon
Posts: 144
Joined: December 3, 2015

Post Post #2499 (ISO) » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Post by Void Protectorate »

In post 2497, DiamondSentinel wrote:LOL @ Void using WIFOM as "valid logic" to try and discredit me.

What? Who did what now?

-Void
Hydra of Voidedmafia, Bulbazak, and all their various incarnations.

And if you gaze into the Void, the Void gazes also into you...

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