Mini 1752: Back to December (Game Over)

[MattP]

I'm aware I'm not super involved right now. This past week I had some huge deadlines and now I'm catching up on normal school things that I had to let fall at the waist side for those deadline projects. I'll be more involved in the next few days

[Aj The Epic]

It doesn't make sense to taunt a VT for dying when they can't stop it and have had nothing to do with the game on N0.

Why not bring up this initially? And why do you think that the issue of pointing out "buddying" over "defending" is irrelevant? I was proving to Llama that even (s)he (think it's he) was considering Elyse town in their own language.

Have you caught up?

[Aj The Epic]

To PJ's last post, not Mattp.

[petroleumjelly]

It doesn't make sense to taunt a VT for dying when they can't stop it and have had nothing to do with the game on N0.

Why not bring up this initially? And why do you think that the issue of pointing out "buddying" over "defending" is irrelevant? I was proving to Llama that even (s)he (think it's he) was considering Elyse town in their own language.

Have you caught up?

1.)

I am caught up. Yes, I have seem your claim. No, I do not find it very compelling.

2.)

I did not bring up my reasoning for my vote initially because it is a playstyle choice.

3.)

Your "buddying" v "defending" Elyse semantics is ignoring the point, not completely "irrelevant." The concern being addressed by your potential "buddying" is whether or not you are scum,

not

whether or not Elyse is Town. You try to use the implied assumption of Elyse being "Town" as a justification for your defense of her (i.e., "if she is Town it is a good thing I defended her"). That ignores the problem (i.e., scum like to defend Town). The "wagon" on her was small (three votes) and not being pushed towards a lynch, making your defense of her very out-of-place. You followed it up with a clinical and utilitarian dissection ("what benefit / why bother buddying?") which feels very unnatural, and also sidesteps the point there are

many

reasons scum 'buddy up' to players.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't really care if you find my claim compelling.

As I stated in my larger post before claiming, I don't like the WK'ing that comes through right as someone is about to be lynched. If it's bad, stop it early. I don't see how waiting for a wagon to develop to become some foregone conclusion only then to defend it is town. I took the correct action by attacking it early. What I find ironic is that your entire post here is basically playing off the fact that you wanted Elyse lynched by saying there's no problem of Elyse being 'town' (wtf is this?) but rather my defending her when YOU WERE VOTING HER for what I think is largely an asinine reason.

[petroleumjelly]

I don't really care if you find my claim compelling.

As I stated in my larger post before claiming, I don't like the WK'ing that comes through right as someone is about to be lynched. If it's bad, stop it early. I don't see how waiting for a wagon to develop to become some foregone conclusion only then to defend it is town. I took the correct action by attacking it early. What I find ironic is that your entire post here is basically playing off the fact that you wanted Elyse lynched by saying there's no problem of Elyse being 'town' (wtf is this?) but rather my defending her when YOU WERE VOTING HER for what I think is largely an asinine reason.

There is no irony, and you are again missing the point. You are also conflating a vote with "wanting somebody lynched." Besides just lynching, votes can be used for pressure, shifting momentum, making a point.

Further, players can simultaneously call Elyse scummy and also accuse you of budding Elyse. The two might seem "mutually exclusive" from an overly strict logical perspective, but in terms of scumhunting they are not. We are not currently trying to tie all of the scum into a neat package.

[MattP]

Just throwing in quickly, doctor makes complete sense in a night start game. Why not throw in protown WIFOM saving ability to balance out a mafia NK-start. Also, I don't see why someone would fake claim doctor given how likely a doc is in this setup and the role being decent but not amazing enough to try to draw out before being lynched

[MattP]

Unvote/b]

[MattP]

Unvote

[MattP]

P.S. I thought doctors were supposed to always claim VT?

Why do you think that?

1.)

I am caught up. Yes, I have seem your claim. No, I do not find it very compelling.

Why is it not compelling? You don't think it's a dangerous fakeclaim?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I am caught up. Yes, I have seem your claim. No, I do not find it very compelling.

Why is it not compelling? You don't think it's a dangerous fakeclaim?

A power role is the most likely thing scum will claim if pushed to claim. And here, Aj The Epic has already stated that he thinks claiming Townie would result in him getting lynched (see Post #196 and Post #197).

The question is not one of "danger"; if Aj The Epic is scum, the point of claiming Doctor would both be to potentially survive but also an attempt to draw out any protective roles. It's one way to go down swinging. To some extent, I actually think claiming Doctor in this situation is somewhat of a scumtell. I am not really a subscriber to JEEPtells, but I tend to agree with him on this topic.

You insinuate in Post #206 that a Doctor is "not amazing enough to draw out" before being lynched, and this is flatly incorrect. Scum's

first

concern is often to kill any protective roles. If scum get a counterclaim from a Cop, for example, they would then immediately have to worry about protective roles. Being rid of those protective roles first gives peace of mind in killing suspected power roles afterwards.

[MattP]

Maybe I'm incredibly forgetful but I can't think of a single game, ever, where scum fakeclaimed doctor. I can only think of games where they've fakeclaimed cop or an unorthodox role. The immediate utility behind fakeclaiming cop to me over doctor is immediately apparent. If I were scum I would want to draw out a cop claim over a doctor claim any day of the week.

[MattP]

Like, my first concern PR-wise as scum is to not be investigated as scum, and that takes precedence over whether or not my NK target prevented? Doctor isn't that great of a role. RB'er or cop is better. I don't like that you're treating this claim so black and white like it's a fakeclaim.

[TKoE]

This is why I don't understand the bullshit of 'Oh looking at things from a scum perspective is bullshit." No, that's 100% how I think in games so I can find what a scum would do.


Rask's vote is also bad. Just sitting one in there to be a part of a wagon. In the comfortable slot right in the middle and hoping it becomes popular enough that no one will notice him. In fact, his iso only has neutral or positive things to say about me. His sudden change for no reason could very easily be coming from scum.

I agree with both points here. Scum-modeling is an effective and valid way to play, though I usually avoid posting in that mindset. And that vote was dodgy as all hell.

I read it as "I'm scumreading you and I don't want to be. Do this so I don't have to anymore."

Ah, right that makes sense.

TKoE I want to address you here. Thinking about how scum would think is a fine thing to do and pretty necessary for Town, but what about when a player blatantly ignores common aspects if scumplay for their own defense? Do you agree that there was no potential benefit for scumAJ buddying Elyse?

Oh, of course there was potential benefit there. I was making no claims on the content of his scum-think, only the validity.

So, Aj claims Doc and saves himself from the lynch. I sure hope he's telling the truth or we'll be kicking ourselves later.
Having said that, I find it a little suspicious how quickly that wagon rose and fell. No further comment at the moment.

[petroleumjelly]

This is what I can gather about Aj The Epic's thoughts on fake-claiming Doctor:

If I was going to fake claim as scum day 1, I'd definitely fake claim doctor and draw the counterclaim for my scum team.

[If I was scum I would claim Cop...] or Doctor, probably. I haven't read the thread outside of looking at my predecessor's Iso. The slot's basically at your guy's mercy anyways, so I'd probably try to draw out a counter claim for buddies to pick off.

And I am not treating this as black-and-white. I do not like Aj The Epic's play. I do not like Aj The Epic's claim. If he is Town, his role is effectively useless. As indicated above, Aj The Epic clearly has a strong tendency of at least trying to help out his scumteam in the situation where he thinks he is going to be lynched.

There is a fair chance I will ultimately unvote, in the hopes that

if

he is Town he will be nightkilled and thereby I might avoid pushing a mislynch. I never particularly

enjoy

pushing to lynch a claimed power role. But right now I think the chances of him being scum are higher than the chances of him being a Doctor.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm sorry I can't give you a claim that isn't my role. You're beating a dead horse: I'm going to die tonight so you might as well not waste your time after getting caught up over something I do all the time.

[MattP]

Wow, those quoted posts are insanely specific the the claim he's doing now. That's actually kind of hilarious

[MattP]

Based on that I'm fine with an Aj lynch again

[Aj The Epic]

You realize the purpose of that is to still die but have drawn a counter claim whereas I'm the SOLE DOCTOR who's not going to draw a counter claim.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.08

Aj The Epic (4) - petroleumjelly, Raskolnikov, OceanWind, Elyse
Raskolnikov (3) - LlamaFluff, Aj The Epic, Alchemist21
Elyse (1) - Supreme Overlord
MattP (1) - TKoE

Not Voting (2) - curiouskarmadog, MattP

With 11 votes in play, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, January 17, 2016, at 2:30 AM EST (UTC-5), which is in (expired on 2016-01-17 02:30:00).

[curiouskarmadog]

Well I have seen scum claim doctor many times. But without a counter claim we don't lynch Aj. If he really is a doc he will die tonight.

[curiouskarmadog]

Lol I just read p Kelly's post. When I am not on my phone I am going to check out those links. If that is true then yeah I am fine with an Aj lynch.

[curiouskarmadog]

You realize the purpose of that is to still die but have drawn a counter claim whereas I'm the SOLE DOCTOR who's not going to draw a counter claim.

Or you can save me the time. As scum do you claim doc frequently?

[Aj The Epic]

No. Most scum games I try to claim as truthfully as I can to not give myself up for free. The one fake claim I had in 2014 cost me when I had bussed off a teammate and got bitten for a fake claim that didn't add up well.

[curiouskarmadog]

What about the posta jelly posted?