Mini 1752: Back to December (Game Over)

[OceanWind]

This is a mess.

We need to consolidate on a wagon.

We do and I'm still thinking about where I want to go.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh yeah. AJ is definitely scum. Will finish him off when I get home. The people who are saying he is scum but aren't voting him should do that now.

[Alchemist21]

OceanWind is now a solid Townread for me.

I'd still like Rask lynched. My vote in him was about him not explaining his votes, not having little content overall, and that he thought that's why I'm scumreading him makes me think that long post of his was meant to make us think he can provide more content and make us more hesitant to lynch him.

TKoE would be my second choice. His scumminess goes way up if Rask is scum, but it's still suspicious that he was trying to draw out an early claim from me.

Some of the recent cases on Llama make sense to me and are good enough that I'd vote here if I absolutely had to.

[OceanWind]

@Ocean: That was 2am for me, so my posts were really short and not very informative. Not what's needed here.

Here's my problem: Llamafluff made the case the yesterday evening. You were online and posting last night. You were online and posting this morning and yet you made no posts until I called you out.

You respond very passionately to Llamafluff calling his points "bullshit" and in general using strong language. So, if mafia was bullshitting a case on you that caused this type of passionate response, wouldn't you immediately respond to it rather than deciding "what's happening in Back to December? Oh, scum made a case on me. I'm going to sleep and will address this tomorrow." That doesn't feel right considering how you responded to it.

[OceanWind]

UNVOTE: Llamafluff
VOTE: Aj The Epic

I'm willing to take that risk lynching a doc claim.

[OceanWind]

OceanWind is now a solid Townread for me.

I'd still like Rask lynched. My vote in him was about him not explaining his votes, not having little content overall, and that he thought that's why I'm scumreading him makes me think that long post of his was meant to make us think he can provide more content and make us more hesitant to lynch him.

TKoE would be my second choice. His scumminess goes way up if Rask is scum, but it's still suspicious that he was trying to draw out an early claim from me.

Some of the recent cases on Llama make sense to me and are good enough that I'd vote here

if I absolutely had to.

Can you expand a bit more here? What "cases" on Llama made sense to you specifically? Why am I solid townread? Was it because I went through Llamafluff's Aj The Epic case and attacked him for it? Because I had a strong initial reaction that his case was scummy but going back and looking at it, I changed my mind because he does make some good points and the bad points aren't as bad.

Can you explain the context of the bolded part? Why do you phrase it that way? What was your read on Llamafluff before and what is it now?

What is your read on Aj The Epic?

[Aj The Epic]

You respond very passionately to Llamafluff calling his points "bullshit" and in general using strong language. So, if mafia was bullshitting a case on you that caused this type of passionate response, wouldn't you immediately respond to it rather than deciding "what's happening in Back to December? Oh, scum made a case on me. I'm going to sleep and will address this tomorrow." That doesn't feel right considering how you responded to it.

Because I didn't read the game until this morning. I didn't feel like getting worked up before bed.

[Alchemist21]

OceanWind is now a solid Townread for me.

I'd still like Rask lynched. My vote in him was about him not explaining his votes, not having little content overall, and that he thought that's why I'm scumreading him makes me think that long post of his was meant to make us think he can provide more content and make us more hesitant to lynch him.

TKoE would be my second choice. His scumminess goes way up if Rask is scum, but it's still suspicious that he was trying to draw out an early claim from me.

Some of the recent cases on Llama make sense to me and are good enough that I'd vote here

if I absolutely had to.

Can you expand a bit more here? What "cases" on Llama made sense to you specifically? Why am I solid townread? Was it because I went through Llamafluff's Aj The Epic case and attacked him for it? Because I had a strong initial reaction that his case was scummy but going back and looking at it, I changed my mind because he does make some good points and the bad points aren't as bad.

Can you explain the context of the bolded part? Why do you phrase it that way? What was your read on Llamafluff before and what is it now?

What is your read on Aj The Epic?

I think AJ (who I think is Town) was right about the parts where Llama looks like he's twisting words to push a read onto AJ, and I agreed with your point on how Llama is using something subjective to push his AJ read after he said he had a problem with a subjective point. I also disagree with what Llama said about AJ not giving more attention to the game. He may not have much passion, but following his claim he did put out a more inclusive readslist, and he's continued to regularly engage rather than go into defeated silence. These reasons are enough to put him in my scumreads, but still weaker than the reasons I want the other 2 lynched, and I would much rather lynch them instead. I didn't really like Llama's earlier post about AJ not crumbing, but I thought that might just be because Llama thinks Docs should always crumb and I had him as null before now.

My read in you isn't specifically tied to your posts on Aj or Llama (actually I think it's more from your posts on Xtoxm). I think your posts show a level of critical thinking that I don't think would come from a scum mindset. Also, if you were scum I would think you'd be more likely to throw doubt onto Xtoxm's intro given how you had reason to believe he had thoughts on the game before joining and then maybe attack him for trying to derail the current wagons this close to deadline. That you didn't do either of those things shows me you're Town thinking things through and not just scum looking to push suspicions on anybody they can.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: AJ

[Aj The Epic]

The scum team is probably in Raskolnikov and Llama. Llama can't even come back and tell me WHY he lied and Rask is just looking to clear me out.

[OceanWind]

You respond very passionately to Llamafluff calling his points "bullshit" and in general using strong language. So, if mafia was bullshitting a case on you that caused this type of passionate response, wouldn't you immediately respond to it rather than deciding "what's happening in Back to December? Oh, scum made a case on me. I'm going to sleep and will address this tomorrow." That doesn't feel right considering how you responded to it.

Because I didn't read the game until this morning. I didn't feel like getting worked up before bed.

Okay, your response here:

@Ocean: That was 2am for me, so my posts were really short and not very informative. Not what's needed here.

seemed like you read the game and decided that you needed to make longer posts here so you were going to wait until it wasn't 2am. But in your more recent post above you say you didn't read the game until this morning. So, how would you know you needed to make longer posts here?

[Aj The Epic]

I read my other games because A.) They're newer and B.) aren't bothering me like this game is. There's no inconsistency.

[curiouskarmadog]

I see questions for me. will answer when I am not on phone.

funny how OW is curious about my Xtoxm vote AFTER I vote him.

will go ahead and hammer AJ this weekend if needed, but would rather OW.

[OceanWind]

I was curious before you switched to me as I mentioned in Post 306. Why would it have mattered even if I didn't?

[curiouskarmadog]

I was curious before you switched to me as I mentioned in Post 306. Why would it have mattered even if I didn't?

but it took me voting you to ask me about it. why?

[OceanWind]

I expected you to respond and discuss it with me naturally. Your lack of response told me you were the type of player who just skims, responds to what he wants and ignores stuff that doesn't capture his interest. So, I asked directly.

[Xtoxm]

Is that L-1?

I'd still prefer Llama because it's the smarter play - If Aj is town, he will die tonight. We had 3 votes on Llama and 3 more say they'd be willing to move there.

Aj probably IS scum however, and i'd like people to be aware that a scumflip there absolutely does not make Llama town.

On another note, i'm really liking Ocean's response to my suspicion and subsequent posting.

Side note when making this post I saw something that I want to put Elyse at about 100% town for. Not wanting to say what, but seriously, she is town for that one.

I really don't understand why town would say something like this. It's probably an attempt to further build bonds with a player who has expressed opposition to lynching him.

[Supreme Overlord]

By my count it's still L-3:

Aj The Epic (3) - LlamaFluff, OceanWind, Raskolnikov
Alchemist21 (3) - Elyse, petroleumjelly, TKoE
Raskolnikov (2) - Alchemist21, Supreme Overlord
LlamaFluff (2) - Xtoxm, Aj The Epic
OceanWind (1) - curiouskarmadog

I'm short on time, but a couple of thoughts:
Rask is throwing his vote anywhere there seems to be some movement. I'll leave my vote here for the next couple of hours at least - I still prefer this wagon to either Alchemist or AJ.

Something else really bugs me but I don't want to discuss it in the here and now just incase an event is occurring im not willing to just give that away. That aside...

Llama

, are you able to talk about this yet? If not, when?

Side note when making this post I saw something that I want to put Elyse at about 100% town for. Not wanting to say what, but seriously, she is town for that one.

Why are you not wanting to say what? When

will

you be able to way what? I can easily see scum throwing out a vague read like this to sow confusion after their flip.
Also, why exactly are you unwilling to let it go to night and see if AJ even survives?

I'm feeling better about Alchemist with his last few posts. I'd switch to Llama before Alchemist.

OceanWind, would you switch back to Llama, or have you changed your mind completely?

[OceanWind]

I'm not townreading Llamafluff. I'm still thinking about whether I want to switch or not.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask is throwing his vote anywhere there seems to be some movement. I'll leave my vote here for the next couple of hours at least - I still prefer this wagon to either Alchemist or AJ.

That's not true I don't want to lynch alchemist.

[LlamaFluff]

Home from work so able to actually post something substantive now, will answer these two really quick though since they are easy

Something else really bugs me but I don't want to discuss it in the here and now just incase an event is occurring im not willing to just give that away. That aside...

Llama

, are you able to talk about this yet? If not, when?

If all parties who are important for this are alive D2 I will talk about it then. Given some topics of conversation there are clearly quite a few people who do not realize something so im not going to tip scum off about how to optimize some things. I really doubt im the only one who sees it, but if no scum see it that is all it takes to work.

Side note when making this post I saw something that I want to put Elyse at about 100% town for. Not wanting to say what, but seriously, she is town for that one.

Why are you not wanting to say what? When

will

you be able to way what? I can easily see scum throwing out a vague read like this to sow confusion after their flip.

Town slip from her if im reading this setup correctly. Not going to push on it since I see it as possible to have different players hit it. I would talk about it to stop a lynch, or if it was late in the game, but right here I don't think it accomplishes much. I tend to be really good at picking out these types of slips though where town says something that scum should be aware of. Its stronger in open than closed games, but if my reads about this game are right, Elyse is town for one post.

Also, why exactly are you unwilling to let it go to night and see if AJ even survives?

Because he is scum. Why let scum live? In the off chance he is actually town that would change quite a few reads.

Llamafluff -

Is this reasonable for Xtoxm to assume based on his past experience with you.

I have no idea. I think he just came back to the site recently after a long time so meta he is using would be at least a few years old.

@PJ - I have TKoE as high noise low content null to slight scum read.

[LlamaFluff]

"Called CKD scummy"? This is bullshit. Why are you trying to twist what I've said when in that post I didn't even mention his alignment and never stated anything about CKD being scum outside "would look back to that"?

So when you say "im going to look back on it" is you saying that is a null or town tell? If you are already saying that its something that you are going to look back on, it usually means you think its a tell. And I don't see you saying that it is a town tell there from your reaction. Are you trying to say that you didn't see that post as scummy?

Your first sentence of the next point makes no sense. Your next part makes no sense for how someone TOWN would react at L-1. That's a lot of 'playstyle choices' and you don't justify it very well.

Your reaction is self-preservation again. Its not scumhunting, but trying to threaten and undermine your wagon. Scum want to diffuse a wagon on them, town are more interested in finding the scum on a wagon. You just snapped right at the low content votes, so unless you are trying to claim you read everyone else who voted you as solid town, the reaction doesn't make sense.

On scum claims, if I'm given a scum power role, I generally claim something that is similar to that powerrole (JOAT was a recent one for me, where I changed an ability out for a pure cop). That's what I mean by claiming as truthfully as possible. This entire conversation just isn't applicable though. I claimed truthfully, and you seem oddly interested in not letting night settle it.

You didn't answer my question. True or false: as vanilla mafia you should always claim VT when ran up D1. Also I think you are scum. I don't want to let scum live another day. You already have stated that as mafia PR you would not claim VT, so using that logic if you are mafia you are a PR, so lynching you would be even better.

This last part is trash because "attacking those who pushed me" constitutes nearly half the town. What, are they off-limits? There was no need for me to believe that Rask and PJ had 'reaction test' votes, nor did either state they were. I had been posting actively and had already fallen under 'pressure' earlier. And then you just ignore more posts by me to misconstrue what I said about Rask specifically.

When a player is voting for reaction tests or pressure they should say it in the post? You attacked them for the votes before they revealed more about if they were serious votes without reasoning at the time or not. Whether they were reaction votes or not, you just started lashing out at your wagon for people voting without reason, when you have no problem with reaction tests. If they would have said "its a reaction test" later does that make their votes fine by your own logic?

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.13

Aj The Epic (3) - LlamaFluff, OceanWind, Raskolnikov
Alchemist21 (3) - Elyse, petroleumjelly, TKoE
LlamaFluff (2) - Xtoxm, Aj The Epic
Raskolnikov (2) - Alchemist21, Supreme Overlord
OceanWind (1) - curiouskarmadog

Not Voting (0)

With 11 votes in play, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, January 17, 2016, at 2:30 AM EST (UTC-5), which is in (expired on 2016-01-17 02:30:00).

[OceanWind]

In the off chance he is actually town that would change quite a few reads.

What are your reads now? You haven't actually talked much at all about anyone other Aj The Epic nor commented on recent events i.e. Xtoxm coming in and accusing you of bussing, me voting you etc.

[Supreme Overlord]

Llama, I think I know what you're talking about with regards to Elyse - I'm not sure I give it as much weight as you, but you're right it's something to keep in mind (I hope we're talking about the same thing here; but if so I do understand why you don't want to say since it could work for others).