Blitz 21 - Hope plus One ―kibou― [End]

[talah]

Hullo.

VOTE: wisdom

why sakura?

[talah]

You didn't give a reason and I'd usually associate that with a test but also I know sakura can tilt pretty easily when prompted.

So I'd prefer the reason on the sakura vote considering you gave none.

[talah]

seems legit.

VOTE: sakura

HI! :)

[talah]

There is a definitively weird association with sakura and talah, and I really REALLY think talah is scum.

Well you're wrong on the second. I'm not really sure about Sakura yet.
The "meh" on me seems okayish at this stage but I do tend to try to get a read on her fairly quickly (at least historically) so that could be stalling so she can go either way depending on where I end up.

Also what's with your assertion that Sakura an I don't know each other? Is that the basis of your scumread on me?
We've played a bunch of games together, but only one semi-recently before this.

So you, sir, appear to be trying to reinforce a bad read with bad assumptions.

So my problem with talah is that talah got in the way of sakura and wisdom. and my problem with you is that you're getting in the way of me and phantom by being impatient and demanding answers NOW NOW NOW when I will explain my reads when i'm ready. I'm not going to lynch anybody based on unexplained reads, I'm not going to derail a wagon with unexplained reads, but i'm not going to explain reads that are still in progress.

There's really not much to "get in the way of" considering Wisdom's vote was naked.
I was reasonably okay with his response, wagons are good and so now I get to see how the both of them interact.


---
Now I get to catch up :'( skimmed up to about the above quote this morning.

Oh by the way

@Ether

- why wouldn't I vote you?

What, with talah? Talah won't vote me.

-Ether

I'd take that as a challenge but mostly it's a baffling statement.

[talah]

Basically all that I noticed about talah was the serious conversation starting thing trying to move out of RVS and I don't find it scummy or see why that wagon is moving so fast.

Because talah understood I was voting Sakura to poke her for reactions yet not only felt the need to mention it, he asked me why I was voting her on top of that.

It's kind of rich to say I "understood" something when actually I took a guess based on you making a naked vote against Sakura.
Actually all I understood was that Sakura can get emotional, fast, and you tend to not give a crap about that if you're scum.

So I wanted to know how you were approaching things and it's as good a topic as any to push out of RVS.

[talah]

and you tend to not give a crap about that if you're scum.

Where did you understand that from?

I read some postgame thing a while back around the time that you had some guff in your signature regarding trying to become a better person or something.
I think the trigger for that was a game where you and Sakura had some pretty terrible interactions.
Come to think of it I don't even recall if that was town/town or scum/town but if your towngame is still hyper-aggressive-dun-care-tunnel then I don't see why you wouldn't also play like that as scum. Therefore if you're scum and Sakura's town she's a pretty easy target to start with in an attempt to get to self-tilt.

Anyway that was my thinking. I can't claim to be completely familiar with the state of things at least as far as your own play goes. Do feel free to correct me.

[talah]

Actually all I understood was that Sakura can get emotional, fast

Actually that doesn't happen nearly as often nowadays.

That's good to know.
I didn't even realise you were Luna Fox in our last game till postgame but I managed to read you okay there. I think that was because of genuine scumhunting though.

What's with your Wisdom-scum tunnel this game?

[talah]

What's with your Wisdom-scum tunnel this game?

He's scum, and i'm giving him his own medicine.

But in that large i was mostly townhunting and using a different playstyle, so technically that wasn't scumhunting until like Day 2 when all the duplicate roles made me go wtf.

I just skimmed the first part of that game - it was scumhunting as well. The fact that you used it to form up PoE first doesn't take away from that.

That said I'm not too worried about you for today.
UNVOTE: Sakura

So now i'm just wondering if the RC tunnel on Scatterplot is genuine or not.
I'm way more cautious about Plotinus than I was last game (I was in the game that RC's consta-referring to while arguing with them).
Tending townish on the Mad King. Not sure if a Scatterplot lynch is the best idea for today from my perspective as Plotinus isn't going to be an easy read for me, but I've been wrong about my own assessment of RC's reads before. A lot of Plot's reasoning is quite craptastic despite there being a lot of words involved. So I can see that side of it.

I could probably sheep if it comes down to it but want to do some other stuff today too.

[talah]

See, this is the decent explanation I was waiting for him to post.

:\

[talah]

It seems like you have a predisposition to wanting to townread me and want to have a reason to reinforce that after the fact.

Maybe this more appropriate
^_-

[talah]

Well you're wrong on the second. I'm not really sure about Sakura yet.
The "meh" on me seems okayish at this stage but I do tend to try to get a read on her fairly quickly (at least historically) so that could be stalling so she can go either way depending on where I end up.

Also what's with your assertion that Sakura an I don't know each other? Is that the basis of your scumread on me?
We've played a bunch of games together, but only one semi-recently before this.

So you, sir, appear to be trying to reinforce a bad read with bad assumptions.

Bad strawman is bad. It is NOT contigent on you not knowing eachother. Your interactions are awful and she overreacted like sakura does trying to deflect your wagon. That is seriously different than the misrep here. Seriously.

Bad strawman is bad? You're going to need to explain that little doozy to me, since the only real indication of *why* you find me scummy is directly with regard to my association with Sakura.

So my problem with talah is that talah got in the way of sakura and wisdom. and my problem with you is that you're getting in the way of me and phantom by being impatient and demanding answers NOW NOW NOW when I will explain my reads when i'm ready. I'm not going to lynch anybody based on unexplained reads, I'm not going to derail a wagon with unexplained reads, but i'm not going to explain reads that are still in progress.

YEP! For two people who don't know eachother they sure are talking to eachother INCREDIBLY strangely.

I wouldn't place hiplop so high, but I more or less like your reads.

i FLY HIGH LIKE PAPER GET HIGH LIKE PLANES

(I left the last bit there as an example of the other drivel you're injecting into the thread.)

Aside from that all you'd said was "why so aggressive" and then directly quoted my Post 15 and said it was scummy. No reasoning.
So rather than explain why your associative tells are rock-solid, you're actually saying that

I'm

talking crap when I address the only reasoning you've provided.

Here's your case:
talah's aggressive
Post 15 is scummy
Sakura and talah's interactions are awkward
They're even MOAR awkward because they don't know each other

Then when I point out that we do in fact know each other...

You're strawmanning, I didn't say my case was about you knowing or not knowing each other!!!1

---
You and Ranger both appear to be doing this thing where you cheerlead the talah-scum case, and anyone indicating that I might be scum, but fail to address me or attempt to get a read on me, directly.
You also both fail to do anything else to reinforce your own "cases".

For example:

{talah} - for butting in between wisdom and sakura, then sheeping wisdom (like everyone else said)?

If by that, you mean 13/17, then yes. Nothing I've seen from talah has changed my opinion of how bad that was.

This doesn't say anything about why those two posts are bad, just obliquely refers to them and moves on.
(Interestingly it leaves out post 15 which you yourself took umbrage with.)
However, seven out of eight of Rangers last posts refer to me being scum, and the only development of reasoning is (see below) which is also pretty terrible.

So you two are actually in my scumpile just because of how bad your arguments are.

---

You? Impact. Me? Impact. Antihero? Impact. Wisdom? Impact. Scatterplot? Impact. Trebuchet? Impact. Mad King Ashnard? Impact. Heck, even PhantomCobalt has had an impact, albeit a negative one. And while Sakura Hana is contestable, to me Sakura has had impact.

Ankamius, KTthecreeper, and talah all have not.

When did "impact" become a thing that only Town are capable of - therefore blanket town-reads are handed out on that basis?
This extremely poor reasoning. Also your latest readslist moving everyone else "up" only appears to serve to work around Mad King's issue with them being in a tier *below* Scatterplot.
What you've in fact done is picked out two others as "scum" and moved them down and then adjusted your townlist to be more palatable for RC - who incidentally I'm now leaning town based on this appeasement.

VOTE: Ranger

Happy to lynch hiplop
Open to lynching Scatterplot

[talah]

VOTE: Ranger

Happy to lynch hiplop
Open to lynching Scatterplot

All three are town.

All three are pushing my lynch (or snouting around it in the case of Scatterplot) with bad or no reasoning.
At best I *might* see hiplop as derp-town but really doubt it at this point.

[talah]

talah

we were voting you earlier but we unvoted because the L-1 was too soon. Ether's not feeling your wagonning, I feel like you're trying to be useful (in the bad sense) and that you've got off onto the wrong foot as a result of being wagonned while you were sleeping. That's not snouting around it, that's not wanting to lynch you based on the 3 posts you had at the time we unvoted. I feel okay with you being cautious of me but "Plot is hard to read" is not a good reason to lynch me, sorry!

The other side of it is that I'll tend to trust RC's read on you if I get to thinking they're town, and may well sheep if it comes down to it (which it well might in a Blitz game).
What does "useful in the bad sense" mean, exactly?

You've said that my reasoning on stuff is bad but you're ignoring that I'm on purpose explicitly refusing to provide reasoning because doing so will interfere with me getting reads. It's not a permanent refusal it's a temporary refusal and it's really fucking weird that everyone thinks it's scummy when a person is refusing to say "hey I'm going to do something to get a read on you now and the right answer is

hat

and if you say

hat

I will townread you and if you say

egg

I will scumread you and if you say

danceHello

I will null read you okay good now let's get started."

I don't understand this logic as an excuse to not flesh out reads that you're throwing out there in the first place.
If there's nothing else to a read than what you've already said, you say that and drop it, not engage in wally posting which does nothing to clarify your position. IMHO.

Can we all agree that that would be scummier than what I'm doing? Please? Like I feel like I've stumbled into a newbie game here with all the "town would explain everything clearly and logical and lay it all out in advance telegraphing how to get townread by them so that everybody knows how to behave in order to get townread and scum would be treat the game thread as the scumposting thread" that is floating around in this thread and that's a really strange way to feel when this playerlist is mostly experienced players. You're better than this and I don't believe that these are positions you genuinely hold.

Are you addressing me specifically here? Because you started with "Can we all agree..." and finished with "I don't believe your positions are genuine".
Whining about the the thread is kind of pointless wouldn't you agree?
Also you've asked at least two other players in your list above to give a read with a reason so...

I also feel like a lot of your reads are very self centered, based solely on how people are voting you or not voting you and not really based around how other people are interacting with each other, but that's a humantell not a scumtell. Still, I'd like to see you branch out some here and do more than just scumhunt off your wagon when you're at L-5.

Like I said, wagons are good and the fact that the major wagon of today was my own doesn't exclude me from analysing it, especially when I'm in the fortunate position of knowing exactly what alignment the wagon was on.
I'm not sure if you even voted me (I vaguely remember I think Ether unvoting me(?)) but you've certainly been sniffing around and you have direct experience with me-town now so you should be able to come to the table with something more coherent than what you have.

So I have several scum-tickles coming from your direction and am not really inclined to think better of it when you've just posted another bunch of words at me which sort of loop around themselves and don't address my basic problem which is - why did you think I was scum based on that initial interaction with Wisdom?

[talah]

Useful in the bad sense means "scum trying to be useful", the kind of "look at me I am a town aligned player who can win with the town who is usefully moving the game along" posting that is more likely to come from scum than not.

My basic problem was that you got in between two players who were trying to sort each other instead of letting them sort each other. You did it with Wisdom and Sakura. You did it with me and Phantom. You're kinda doing it with me and RC too.

And,

once again

you see two players trying to sort each other and you butt in and demand to know what the right answer to the test is before the other player has a chance to respond and that's scummy.

I'm going to try to trim this down a bit.
Wisdom did not say anything when he naked voted. His vote and/or potential reaction tests based on a

naked vote

is not so precious that I need to steer clear of it to "let everyone evolve". I'm pretty sure he's not that sensitive about it and I don't know why you are. If you're town and you want a day to get an assessment of the overall situation, most likely scum etc, that's fine and I understand that kind of play.

However.

This is not a matter of me "getting in the way of" anyone else forming reads and I find it highly suspect that you see this potentially in Wisdom's

naked vote

, see it in your own play, and fail to recognise that I'm

also attempting to form reads

. I'm not forcing you to jump to any conclusions in your own process, but scumreading me for *bad reasons* is far worse than scumreading me for *no reason*.

Like this:

mostly sheeping hiplop. I felt it was weird the way that talah acknowledges that wisdom is probably reaction testing sakura but then needs an explanation RIGHT NOW before sakura even has time to respond to wisdom's vote. If he thought the

rvs naked vote was for reactions

, which is a reasonable assumption, and he thought the purpose was to get reactions from sakura, then why was he getting in the way of that?

---

This is the player you've decided to sheep because you think they can read me. They can't. They can read Titus.

They're also pretty accurate as town when they're not confusing the fuck out of me by wagonning everything that comes into their vision.
So a BoP leap of faith on them is not an unappealing option for me.

[talah]

ok. Still not fully happy with you, especially the "i'm being scumread for the wrong reasons" bit, but i'm going to give you an olive branch and some space to get your head into the game like I've been asking people to do for me.

I'm less happy with burden of profficiencying the mad king because I know that I'm town and if they do mislynch me then the right response isn't to turbolynch them because they had a bad day 1 read. I've never seen a 1v1 go well for the town outside of a counterclaim scenario.

That's some olive branch considering you're simultaneously calling me out for the "scum mad cuz caught for the wrong reasons" meme (and I called out 3 players who had bad pushes and/or reasons, and they were all on my L-1 wagon), and implying I'm lining up lynches - making an incorrect assumption about my read on RC tomorrow if he were wrong about you.

So you're *still* scumpainting me while trying to present yourself as the bigger person cutting me some slack.

I don't think this is

anyone's

town game, let alone yours.

UNVOTE: Ranger
VOTE: Scatterplot

L-2

[talah]

Like, what was I supposed to say other than talah i sstill scum when shes lurking like shit to avoid pressure?

It's 11.44am here right now. I'm GMT+11 right now with DST.

How am I lurking?

And as far as insults go - was it the fact that I could only consider you town if you're also derptown? Or was it the fact that I cited an example of you injecting rubbish into the thread in place of reasoning for pushes?

Sorry if you took that to heart, but no I'm not scum, you're trying to mislynch me by whipping up a storm of repetitive statements and refusing to engage with me on what I'm seeing as an empty but loud push from you.

I'll tone it down if you prefer but I don't see why you're surprised at that kind of response regardless of my alignment.

[talah]

Im sorry what MS?

[talah]

Personal insults are lame

Well, sorry you feel that I was insulting you personally.
I was actually insulting your play due to you being completely wrong.

I'll try to avoid this in future. However I'd like you to hit the ISO button on me and respond to the questions I've asked you regardless. Surely if I'm lurking that shouldn't be an issue.

[talah]

I literally don't care about "classic" scumtells. I think they're pointless and especially when buzzwords get thrown around I tend to question the validity of the underlying read.

Incidentally if I *had* rolled scum I *would* be newbscum because I've played almost no scum games.

But if you're just taking an independent tell and applying it to me knowing almost nothing about my play then I think that's really wrong and/or scummy. There was *certainly* scum on my wagon. And I don't think I should need to condone my own flip to prove that's where I'm coming from.

[talah]

Who is scum outside of the people who pushed you and the replaced out guy?

Is that all your reads? That's pretty fucking scummy if so

I never said KT was scummy, but I don't like the replace.

I still have my eye on Wisdom and I find Expedience's backward-rationalised townread on me suspect.

Aside from that I'd have to look into it.

[talah]

I'm not a huge fan of the KT wagon and I don't want to force two wagons that could potentially be town to counter each other.

Why did the Talah wagon break apart, exactly?

:rolleyes:

[talah]

When have we played together before?

And no I don't *usually* scumread replacements at least not as far as I'm aware - it depends on the nature of the replace. In KT's case I didn't like it because it was a replace under scumhunting pressure and I didn't like his reasoning. I agree with waiting for the replacement.

[talah]

Apparently KT said this.

You think it's scum? Why?

Why is KT pressuring Wisdom scummy?

[talah]

Yeah you're right I'm making filler posts.

Do you think KT is attacking Wisdom or being defensive from that post.

[talah]

leveraging a read against someone's actions implies a very not-genuine sorting thought process

Explain what exactly you're talking about here please.

[talah]

Yeah you're right I'm making filler posts.

Do you think KT is attacking Wisdom or being defensive from that post.

yep, ready to lynch this
VOTE: talah

Explain why this post pushed you over an edge you'd been wandering off from for half the dayphase.

[talah]

nope, not getting sucked into this

kay

[talah]

When have we played together before?

And no I don't *usually* scumread replacements at least not as far as I'm aware - it depends on the nature of the replace. In KT's case I didn't like it because it was a replace under scumhunting pressure and I didn't like his reasoning. I agree with waiting for the replacement.

so you're questioning what i'm saying but you think replacing out for getting sick is a perfectly valid reason for scumreading kt?

I expressed suspicion of the replace in my Post 594.

I think your reluctant attack on the slot is worse than the replace frankly. Are you reading what I'm posting?

[talah]

What are you, Doctor fucking psychology?

[talah]

Read my posts

[talah]

seriously, if i can't tell someone who makes a passive aggressive jab at me to fuck off and i'm going to be hounded by the "civility" police, i don't want to be in this game

[talah]

Policy lynch away

[talah]

I think your reluctant attack on the slot is worse than the replace frankly. Are you reading what I'm posting?

frankly, i now totally get why hiplop thinks you're condescending

for what you're claiming is bothering you to be correct, you have to believe that kt lied about having an ear infection or whatever else in order to cover for the real reason he replaced. that's a very non-intuitive thing to leap to.

No I don't think he lied, I'm actually on board with what Ranger said. I've replaced out of a scumgame that awkwardly before because of RL reasons and I've recently seen it done by my predecessor in a Resistance mish-mash. Both cases it's overly apologetic. The reason is completely real I would guess.

And anyway I'm not considering it "scummy" until I see a replace.

[talah]

did i make a passive aggressive jab at you?

No you tried to feign some kind of hurt at an aggressive defense.

[talah]

yea talah should burn. Scummy and condescending and gah

If you want to lynch me just because I'm an asshole then maybe I should just replace too.

I thought this game would be an enjoyable and mentally challenging joust but it's just a "oh noes you should be nice though" fest right now.

I can replace, it's no problem. But as I've stated numerous times, I didn't roll scum.

RC I'm having problems with right now distracting from the obvious focus while voting me.

[talah]

I don't want to do any preflip associatives until we've lynched Talah.

Okay. This is scum like I caught Ice. It's literally the worst and most nonexistent reason for pushing my lynch as fait accompli.

RC might also be scum *with* Scatter.

UNVOTE: Scatter
VOTE: Mad King

[talah]

YOU ARE SCUM. THAT IS 99.99999999999999% OF MY READ ON YOU

STOP TRYING TO FUCKING SPIN IT INTO A POLICY LYNCH. IT IS NOT. YOU'RE SCUM AND ARE TRYING TO STRAWMAN EVERYONES CASE BY PULLING THIS SHIT. SERIOUSLY. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH YOU AS A PERSON/FISH, YOU'RE JUST SCUM

What? Antihero said he was policy lynching me.

Stop capsing me.

[talah]

Yeah you're pushing me as scum and you already know I have one completed scumgame.

And like 15 town.

[talah]

So you should be taking that into account and you're not.

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

[talah]

Fuck off hiplop

[talah]

The worst thing is that town are going to let this ride for you because "oh tunnelling townie is town"

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

VOTE: talah

Yep, I'm on board now.

Explain why.

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

This was at RC btw if it wasn't obvious

[talah]

Which makes you all the more likely to trip over the things I caught you on.

We've never played a game together I don't even understand what you're talking about

[talah]

ok.

Thanks Sakura!

Kind of smug with your townlynch, aren't you?

[talah]

Which makes you all the more likely to trip over the things I caught you on.

We've never played a game together I don't even understand what you're talking about

...................................................

WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT OTHER GAMES

BECAUSE YOU KEEP ALLUDING TO KNOW THINGS ABOUT ME

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

This was at RC btw if it wasn't obvious

...

I don't buy this.

wut

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

VOTE: talah

Yep, I'm on board now.

Explain why.

Your response to pressure isn't town.

That's an assertion but it's not an explanation when I flip.
Try harder.

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

This was at RC btw if it wasn't obvious

1. The assertion itself is wrong no matter who you levy it at.
2. The timing of when you made the two posts are really really awkward.

AKA it makes you sound really panicked. AKA scum cracking under pressure.

Flailing, am I?

You actually said you didn't believe my clarification that I was talking to RC which implied that you were thinking that hiplop and I were scumbuddies.

Anyway... I'm frustrated but I don't see your "panicked" argument. Like I think in my entire 2 years here I've never been "panicked". I'm interested to know about all the other "panicked" scum you've caught before. Common thing, is it?

[talah]

Also you're wrong and you should be right or at least somewhat right, and you should be attempting to read me, and you're not.

This was at RC btw if it wasn't obvious

...

I don't buy this.

wut

It's really telling when none of your response makes any sense.

I thought you were talking about "this is at RC" initially.

RC should be able to read me a bit better considering he was going to NK me OR scum last game. There should be some kind of argument there similar to the Plot argument since we both have precisely one completed game with him apparently. He has no argument.

I'm thinking this is really weird and doesn't match up at all.

[talah]

Well you just did the opposite of that and claimed to strongly scumread Plotinus in this game on the basis of exactly the same game.

Anyway I'd just think you'd be more cautious about a read you got wrong last game. I usually am.

[talah]

So what's it gonna be? My flip?

Let's start making assumptions and plans based on that and also assume I flip town.

I actually don't mind right now but if you're a tunnel-townie how about you assess who's scum on this wagon?

[talah]

@Mod I'm really sorry but I need to replace

Apparently I joined a game where I liked most of the players and didn't realise that clique rules were a thing and being myself isn't allowed

Good luck town or scum