In post 6292, Sensei wrote:Yosarian wrote:1. ABR is not scum with Max, period. If you read him yesterday that is obvious.
Show your work.
And let's talk about this because the game probably hinges on it.
Ok. Day 1 was huge, so this is going to take me a while.
Let's start from the early game. First thing to look at is, how did Max respond when ABR started campigining for MC.
If they were buddies together, I'd expect Max to either support ABR's campaign (maybe in a subtle way) to try to help him get elected, or else stay the hell away from it completly to avoid making connections (or maybe some of both). That's not what I see. First, Max claimed to have a town read on ABR
In post 587, MaxwellPuckett wrote: In post 581, Albert B. Rampage wrote: In post 572, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Honestly, Drixx, all of us can only guess what the heck each of the locations do. Just pick somewhere cool.
I want him to go to Wakata because the reason is completely arbitrary, the one who suggested it had no realistic expectation of him being listened to, and it fits well with the story this game is starting to paint. I fully support this region and this region only.
Yolo ghost vacation it is
Hell, Drixx, roll a die. I only think the region choice will matter once someone has been on one. Go to the same place, or a new place, and the next night repeat. We have no info.
CoolDog: While I'm not townreading Rylai, I don't think the reasons people have stated for townreading her (if players have) were meta reasons. In fact, the player who brought up the meta (Yosarian I believe) is scumreading her.
PEDIT: ABR's probably town.
But supported other people for MC for a while
In post 870, MaxwellPuckett wrote:I was waiting for someone to tell Yosarian that hammers refer to the vote that lynches a player, not a physical item, while i was reading up. Apparently no one noticed that?
Skybird: Wanted to know where you were getting your info, I admit I was a bit suspicious but what you've said is an explanation.
I wanted to talk to you because I wanted you to post more, so I could get a read on you, because I'm not sure how I feel about you right now.
Rylai and Lina: to give you a bit of background, in Varsoon'a previously modded game he regretted that some scum fake claims weren't very strong. I've no doubt that he's remedied that in this game, and that an MC claim does not make someone guaranteed town. It would be easy to get caught if you thought that way.
Wicked as MC: I didn't agree with Sentinel comment about Wicked's self-nomination for MC, so I thought it'd be a humorous time to announce my top townread. I understand why ABR voted like he did, but I did not like Angel's vote, she doesn't sound like she's townreading him.
Main Character: Drixx
For now this is better, as said earlier Wicked hasn't posted too much, which is fine but I guess we need to be able to talk to the MC a lot. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't.
Pedit: ah, there's the hammer thing, okay.
This post then sounded like Max was kind of against ABR being MC, although it feels like Max was trying to avoid pissing ABR off my making clear it was just a joke
In post 983, MaxwellPuckett wrote:ABR is not concerned with the interests of this town, only the concerns of those who vote for him! Political corruption, is what if is.
For the record, I'm joking. I'm still kind of concerned about this attitude towards adventures, though.
I don't agree with DiamondSentinel being in the party.
Pretty sure DPs argument against ghost town was that it might have something to do with dead players, and we don't have any of those yet. I don't think it's likely to, but she does.
Pedit: yeah, Titus confirmed that.
I don't think the first location chosen matters, and I don't think the chances of Titus being right are good, but yeah, the logic here is sound. Who cares if you don't go to the ghost town?
But then he voted Albert for MC for a while, for no obvious reason, without making any arguments that Albert should be MC
In post 997, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Main Character: Albert
Titus: what does agency captured mean?
I've not problem with Rylai being in the party, if her powers help protect it in some way.
PEDIT: Calling for your own lynch so that we can trust your opinion? Are you that disappointed you don't get to be in the first adventuring party?
But then he only left his MC vote on Albert for a few days, and didn't give any real reasoning when he pulled the MC vote off of Albert.
In post 1646, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Full catch-up in a bit! I just skimmed everything to get to this point, so this stuff might change, but its how I feel right now.
MC: Lowkey
VOTE: ArcAngel9
Conclusion from part 1: I don't get the impression Max really wanted Albert to be MC, but I also don't get the impression Max was trying to distance himself from Albert or stay off the MC wagon to avoid looking like a buddy.
Looking at that early posting, it sounds like Max is trying to stay on Albert's good side, but I don't see any sign that he really wants ABR to be MC.
Part 2: ABR's early play.
There was one point in the early game where ABR was actually semi-defending Max. Which doesn't really fit the "hard bus day 1 for role reasons" theory some people are pushing.
In post 811, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I said don't vote Fluminator. You vote him. The laziest, scummiest bandwagon.
If you want to gain any credibility, start scumhunting someone that isn't Fluminator or Max.
As late as 1726, ABR was actually trying to get Max to vote him for MC
But by post 1957, ABR started voting Max.
In post 1957, Albert B. Rampage wrote: In post 1905, Lowkey wrote:Mollie, I'm so fucking hype for this game again and you're making me excited. Stop LOL. I have things to do but can't help catching up and reading. I think I'm reading more than Lowell. Also, I feel you on the hydra thing, I wish Lowell was spamming my PT as much as I am. Our third secret hydra member almost has as many posts in the PT as he does, ilu mollie
ABR's shit is counterintuitive, obviously, but he's not dumb and has a motive behind it so stop second guessing your shit and trying to pull it as alignment indicative; use the rest of his play for that because there's plenty to judge. ABR, you promise me one thing. You give me that name D3 and I give you the MC vote. No strings attached. Are we good there? I'm slightly salty we're not in your party since you recruited Lowell in the game and you can't read either of us but it is what it is. I just want that name. I've been against voting you as MC because I agree with mollie re: your judgment and have been trying to tell Lowell that. I think he thought that I was thinking you're scum by me saying we shouldn't vote you as MC hence his "we disagree on ABR" thing when we both read him as town. (I think we do?) So, yes. That's my only condition. A name for a vote. Deal?
I see what you guys are saying about Max and yes, that was really, really bad. Still think DS is town, especially after that. He has his bad moments but I don't think DS is scum here.
DGB, I told you, that slot is town af. I'm more worried for them than I am ABR. Seriously.
You got it.
In post 1949, MaxwellPuckett wrote:I don't think the MC can choose who the vice one will be. I thought the MC with the second highest number of votes would be elected if the first one died before they got their protection?
Yes they can. They choose their own back-up when they are chosen by the town.
In post 1905, Lowkey wrote:Mollie, I'm so fucking hype for this game again and you're making me excited. Stop LOL. I have things to do but can't help catching up and reading. I think I'm reading more than Lowell. Also, I feel you on the hydra thing, I wish Lowell was spamming my PT as much as I am. Our third secret hydra member almost has as many posts in the PT as he does, ilu mollie
ABR's shit is counterintuitive, obviously, but he's not dumb and has a motive behind it so stop second guessing your shit and trying to pull it as alignment indicative; use the rest of his play for that because there's plenty to judge. ABR, you promise me one thing. You give me that name D3 and I give you the MC vote. No strings attached. Are we good there? I'm slightly salty we're not in your party since you recruited Lowell in the game and you can't read either of us but it is what it is. I just want that name. I've been against voting you as MC because I agree with mollie re: your judgment and have been trying to tell Lowell that. I think he thought that I was thinking you're scum by me saying we shouldn't vote you as MC hence his "we disagree on ABR" thing when we both read him as town. (I think we do?) So, yes. That's my only condition. A name for a vote. Deal?
I see what you guys are saying about Max and yes, that was really, really bad. Still think DS is town, especially after that. He has his bad moments but I don't think DS is scum here.
DGB, I told you, that slot is town af. I'm more worried for them than I am ABR. Seriously.
In post 1907, Drixx wrote: In post 1906, DiamondSentinel wrote:@Lowkey Don't bother. ABR won't keep up any of his deals. He said he'd give me the party slot and he shows no intention of doing so. He's so blatantly anti-town at this point it's not even funny.
I disagree. I think his posts are oozing town. I'm just not sure if I can trust that he's not faking it. That claim that he made was completely unnecessary. He was running away with votes for being MC, so why make that series of posts? There was literally no reason for it. Like ... there's the super obvious idea that he
wants
to draw the NK tonight, but only a scum team full of people holding idiot balls would leave him alive if he's town after he made the claim he did. He put himself on a clock to deliver scum, and one doesn't do that lightly.
It feels more like a mistake to me than a gambit, but ABR is tricksie.
I agree with this post. I think DS is town.
VOTE: Max
Note that the only other person voting Max at this point was DS, which I think shoots down Zulfy's theory that "Max was obviously not going to make it to Lynch-1". And Max had just stopped voting Albert in order to OMGUS vote DS, so this doesn't look like OMGUS or like a fake scum fight.
This wasn't just a one-off, either. ABR immediately started pushing for a Max lynch in his typical badgering fashion.
Max's response to this seemed to be to try to both undermine ABR and try to placate him and change his mind at the same time. (And, again, Max is trying to convince people to not trust ABR and not elect him to MC.)
In post 1968, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Sorry, itlepip, I didn't mean to quote that.
ABR: Okay, so it's a plan. I know you're not going to say more, but I still don't like that you've been lying about your motivations, particularly the post where you said you were trying to avoid the nk. I thought you were town before this, but this just does not make sense to me.
I'm trying to be rational about this, but everything that was looking towny in ABR's play before is just looking like.. purposely overtly manipulative to avoid looking manipulative. Like as soon as I questioned his bizarre claim it went from 'vote me for MC, Max' to 'let's lynch Max'. I thought it was frustrating to argue against bad wagons, but it's way more frustrating to disagree with and scumread the universally townread player.
PEDIT: I'll stop with this. I can see fighting you isn't going to work today. If you're town then I hope to god your role is godly, but I doubt it, I really doubt you are.
This whole interaction does not look scum on scum to me at all. It looks like Max is scum who is under attack in a way that worries him, and is both trying to calm ABR down, while also trying to undermine his credibility at the same time.
ABR keeps pushing for a Max lynch, again using his normal technique.
In post 2017, Albert B. Rampage wrote: In post 2014, DiamondSentinel wrote:@Yosarian I have one slight problem with Max, which I know is a problem I have as town, but others think is scummy. He's far to flippant with his reads. He's gone from scum-reading someone to a hard town-read in such short time. It honestly just looks like appeasement if they seem even the slightest bit threatening.
because hes scum you should vote him
In post 2019, Albert B. Rampage wrote: In post 2011, Yosarian2 wrote:Anyway, Max doesn't make a lot of attacks considering the number of posts he's made, but I like the Klingon, the archangel, and the DS votes. Not seeing a lot here that's reading as scum. Can you clarify, Albert?
tl;dr
sheeps, gets called for sheeping, does the opposite. his reads are too flexible and convenient
Max responds to this in kind of a passive agressive way:
In post 1977, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
Could someone besides ABR talk to me, though? I feel like I'm being spoken around and the only person who's actually interacting with me if I don't ask them a question directly is the guy I want lynched.
Looks like he's just trying to disengage from ABR here; he does not want this fight with Albert. He claims he "wants Albert lynched", but isn't even voting for Albert. I think scum-Max just wants to fade back into the shadows and get out of this fight intact.
Max then keeps trying to undermine ABR in that same passive aggressive way.
In post 2115, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
Yosarian: Why would town do it, if you're going to ask why scum would? And please don't say that we don't know his role. We wouldn't know his role as scum, either.
Also, I'm pretty sure what DP is saying is that ABR wants to put a scumbuddy on the team that has the extra killing ability, not that being in an adventuring party gives anyone extra kills. I don't really agree that this is specifically the plan though, there are so many benefits to adventuring and it could be any one of them.
In post 2124, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
Yosarian: I think they
could
both be town but that the flavour could also support other arrangements. I don't think it's a reason for them to be town, no.
And, yes, ABR was already in the lead.. there was no need for him to make this claim, but he obviously felt threatened enough in his position to do so. And, I don't think this was a risky or crazy claim, not with the roles that have already been flipped and hinted at. What risk was there for him as scum? And, the only backlash for that claim in particular that he ended up getting was a few players saying it was a bad move but deciding not to question him, and me 'turning on him'. DP was already scumreading the slot so I won't count this.
In post 2139, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
If bussing a teammate assures him a town spot, there's no reason not to do it. I don't think ABR just up and decided to do this, I'm certain that if I'm right about what's happening that this is a plan ABR decided on, to stick to, early on.
I don't even think he was lying about most of his role, just his alignment and what he wants to use the abilities for. If he gets some kind of power from being voted MC... I mean, look at Red's flip. He gets a free kill that only hits non-town every night, so long as no one suspects him. Is it unreasonable of my to think that scum might have another very powerfully role that gets an amazing ability from being trusted? (trusted meaning getting voted as MC)
And once he's MC, removing him from that would be really hard, especially if he's actually thinking about what he's doing and has already settled the claims he needs to make.
This doesn't look like scum distancing to me, especially since Max still isn't voting for ABR. It looks like Max is trying to undermine ABR out of self defense. (And again, if there is some hypo-ABR-scum master plan to try to become MC, Max certanly is not on board with it.)
The day goes on like this for ANOTHER 2000 posts or so, but that's basically the pattern for most of the rest of the day (also, this post is already so long I don't know if anyone is going to read it). ABR keeps attacking Max, without much support from anyone else for a long time. ABR semi-reluctantly joins a Klingon wagon when I push him to, but it was always clear ABR would rather lynch Max, and the first sign that the Klingon wagon is weak, ABR bails on that wagon and goes right back to pushing Max, hard. Ect, ect.
Basically, long story short, Albert created the Max lynch out of basically nothing and drove it for something like 100 pages to an eventual lynch, and Max was quite unhappy about it; however, Max didn't respond the way you'd expect to see in a fake scum on scum fight, which is usually over-the top OMGUS tunneling. Instead, Max kept trying to disengage and try to undermine Albert's credibility without really going after him directly or building a full case against him.
Max and ABR are not scum together.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
