Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory

[MrTrow]

Sorry it took so long
I think i'm finally caught up (i think, had to rush the last few pages 3 am here)

first:
@Marcell: i think people are looking at page 1 for the deadline, this one has not been updated with the 'droog requested deadline extention' that i see in the latest votecount.

Scorpious: honestly, not ringing a bell (can't be good, but matches with 3rd prod): null
RadiantalyFarrar3: a promotes apathy-head and a completely justified 'do not promote apathy'-head, interesting combo(unrelated to read): i haven't encountered anything yet that warrants the need of 3 brains, so i'm not compensating for it: town
Something Pip: opened with reading 'genuine hydra frustration' as 'genuine town frustration'.(1 head may have a blind spot regarding RF3). i have yet to see something i dislike: town
Droog: town (first time i see someone being right when posting )
Karnage: got some town-vibes
Lowell: not much from early day comes to mind, but i really dislike his reaction under pressure (about as much as i dislike newbies vote on him): i have no intention to oppose his lynch
Mathilda: i understand the 'naive'-read here, as well as the 'too experienced to be this naive'-remark: prob-scum (probably need a meta-read here)
TheDominator37: i dislike him (in a way that's completely null). And i can't argue with droogs 'needlessly antagonizes -> gut-town': weak-gut-town
Burning_Earth: Can't recall any specific posts i liked, can't recall disliking anything(apart from a needless and empty exchange with a 3-headed creature) and was around: prob-town
shaddowez: don't recall much, but replaced frozen-angel who bothered to clearly list her reads while replacing out: leaning town
Newbie: 70% disclaimer, 25% reactionary, 5% 'you think i'm saying nothing: here's Doms ISO-dump', her commitment to town-mathilda is currently my top argument for a town-mathilda (as Newbie herself pointed out 'scum don't buddy scum', i really REALLY want to meta-read her to see if she's the kind of person who would 'buddy a buddy' precisely because of that). Her resistence to the Lowell-wagon until the second it was pointed out she couldn't stop it anyway doesn't sit well with me either.

VOTE: Newbie

[MrTrow]

So at least if nobody else intends to I think you should consider hammering (unless I miscounted, Lowell is at L-1).

I considered hammering: but preventing eactions to my list on 3am-reads and apparent 24h deadline-misunderstand, bad idea.
I will be around before the deadline to hammer if need be. (currently at work)

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum. People are all guilty until proved innocent in a Mafia game but we only have one lynch which means that we go for the best case on one person to be lynched. We can't rely on PoE on Day 1.

Do you have a better one?
Convince me

(scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda)

Another thing. Isn't it more likely that scum would be throwing their scum buddies under a bus the moment a definite lynch wagon developed on one of them?

Do you mean like:

2.

We don't have enough time to discuss and organize another lynch that is better than this one

. (Even droog: for those who want to lynch droog, at least wait until Lowell flips.)

Yep.

VOTE: Lowell

ago. You didn't look this fake then.

RadiantalyFarrar3: a promotes apathy-head and a completely justified 'do not promote apathy'-head, interesting combo(unrelated to read): i haven't encountered anything yet that warrants the need of 3 brains, so i'm not compensating for it: town

at least two of us have no idea what this means. You've seen nothing we've done as scummy?

i find the combination of 'shrug'-posts (apathy builders) 'this game sure moves', 'i'm bored' and criticism of such posts 'try breeding apathy less' from the same slot an interesting combination. Had this come from a 1-headed creature i would have considered it a red flag.
But yeah, there's that and the needless filler exchange with burning earth.
But in general, i like most of what's coming from this slot.
It is not of 'a team of 3 townies working closely together to figure stuff out'-quality, but given how there isn't anything in this game yet that could produce that quality, i cannot fault the slot for this.

Droog: town (first time i see someone being right when posting )

this one annoys me, you don't think scum can be right? If anything, scum is more right that anyone else, especially in this setup, because they have all the information.

MISQUOTE The eyeroll is missing.
i liked someone posting an eyeroll, while being completely right in posting an eyeroll. (the 'you have explained the dom-town read 3 times sofar, care to finally explain your dom-town read')
true, it isn't indicative of allignment, his calling 'mislynch waiting to happen, simply because his anti-town play is pissing people off'-dom a townread is.
I don't recall seeing anything from this slot i did not like.

I'm not a fan of Trow's 'not opposed to lowell' standpoint that ends with a vote on Newbie and no intent to vote.

- apparent misunderstanding in the deadline, we have a full day more than everyone seemed to think.
- if i had counted correctly, it would have been the hammer.
- my posting-style tends to warrant some clarification (case-in-point)
- it was 3am (i was really tired and there was still time)

[MrTrow]

There's still more than a day left. That's enough time for a counter-wagon.

Could you stop trying to convince people you are trying to push a counter-wagon and instead actually push the counter-wagon.

Lets start with an easy target, me.
I have read the entire game once, in a single sitting deep into the night, chances i missed something...... reasonable.
Threat of my vote making 'the currently only viable wagon' unlynchable... zero.

Pick your counter-wagon(s) and/or your case for town-lowell, drop all assumptions about what i have and haven't noticed.
And convince me.

[MrTrow]

and if your counter to this lurker who might not be scum is another lurker you're uninvited to my birthday party

purpose of this post?

Yeah... If you're going to keep calling scumbuddies, then can you walk me through on Lowell-Newbie? I didn't quite catch it reading these last few pages.

seconded.

Nobody has stated, or done anything with the fact that Lowell is now at L-1 it seems, makes me curious here.

Then allow me to reiterate, i will be here before the deadline and will hammer if need be.
As far as i'm concerned Mathilda has 14 hours left to change my mind (the spare time of which i might help her do the same to others)
Lowell, feel free to do (some of) the heavy lifting of saving

your

ass, yourself.

[MrTrow]

Your insistence no attempts should be made to get readable information out of math has been noted

[MrTrow]

and of-course will i act accordingly if she does in fact manage to convince me.

or you could put your money where your mouth is and make sure she doesn't try, by stopping to hold up the game yourself.

[MrTrow]

@RF3: yes you do know what i'm saying.
Even if the case is stupid and/or on another lurker, i want to hear it. Even if she actually has nothing i would like to have that explicit.
However, you showed up and flat out stated she should not do that. (which she now hasn't)

In response to me asking for any other way to read that, you claimed to get pissed off by the game being delayed because people refuse to hammer.
This list of people include you.

Or in short: you told math not to provide us with the info i asked her and were dishonest the motivation for doing so.
The 'not having seen anything from this slot i don't like' is no longer true.

[MrTrow]

essentially the thing that makes me suspicious is that they both misrepresent what people say

I assume you've got more here than just pointing out how if you only manage to push half a wagon(it didn't look like you were going to reach more) , the outcome would have been no hammer at deadline -> a no-lynch.
Because while i don't believe that was your intent, it was a reasonable observation.

They also were both denying the possibility that scum are not on the Lowell lynch wagon.

Where?
Also (and slightly more important) how would that influence the Lowell wagon or their own scumminess?

so why the tunnelling?

Do you have anything better?

I'm also not seeing how your 'slow start -> mafia had no control over the lynch' would be an argument against the sum-lowell case?

I also must say i'm not a fan you did not respond till after the hammer.

[MrTrow]

VOTE: mathilda
Your counter-wagon cases yesterday seemed to be divided between:
- independent of Lowells allignment
- based on the assumption he was town.
So they should still be valid.
Now that RF3 is no longer requesting you to keep such a case quiet until after the Lowell lynch, care to elaborate on them?

[MrTrow]

As it turned out I was

right

.

As it turned out you were right, not a single thing has happened that damaged the case you claimed to be pushing.

Present the case.

How sure you were about Lowell is NOT what i'm asking.
Unless it is about how something made lowell obv-town, therefore 'whoever your case turns out to be one' must have known it was a mislynch (even if they had been town), lowell is irrelevant to this question.
Please also keep out the explanation on the concept of intention-hunting or similar: If one of your arguments is unclear, i WILL ask.

Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??

So those who made sure they weren't on a mislynch can't be those that knew it would be a mislynch?
(there has been some 'who should be seen on this lynch'-managing, going on after it became clear, no other lynch was viable)

In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.

So which one is which?

(Why) did you drop this particular argument?

I don't have anything to add. I already made my case.

So you have no interest what so ever, to actually push this?
You have just passed Mathilda in my meta-read-todo-list.

Basically voting them for voting Mathilda who is obvtown.

So, would you prefer my vote was on the person who actively prevented me from getting this read while i'm questioning

But I was at least

trying to lynch scum

.

[MrTrow]

As explained before (posted below) the pace of the game hasn't allowed scum to just hang back and avoid jumping on a lynch wagon.

You were willing to hammer.
I was on standby.
We had L+2 players explicitly being ok with (and willing to act on) a Lowell-lynch.
Unless Lowell's eventual wagon,you and me. contain the entire scum-team, your statement is proven incorrect already.
That's not even taking into consideration the free night-kill a no-lynch would bring.

It's not a case of deliberately mislynching

Wasn't that your entire case on, anyone?

Analysing this in terms of motivation, it looks like you are deliberately trying to make me look scummy. This makes me think that you yourself might be scum.

This looks familiar, RF's case against me is also nothing more than not taking your townie-ness as a given.

Shall we go over the events again:
Late-D1:
Lowell seems to be the only viable lynch, you seem very busy trying to push a counter-wagon.
I ask you to actually present the case the counter-wagon is based on. (any counter-wagon will do)
RF pops in and tells you to shut up
you comply till after the hammer, when you claim to not have the time to be specific

Early D2:
I point out nothing has happened, that would invalidate the case you claim to have and ask you to still present it
RF attempts to silence this attempt (again)
You hop on this argument and refuse to state your case.

Care to finally prove you weren't just trying to 'be seen preventing a mislynch' but were actually trying?
Or are you going to continue to wait until your buddy gives you permission to do so?

[MrTrow]

Mathilda: this is RF, once again telling you to keep your mouth shut.
Are you going to follow orders, or help town? your choice.

[MrTrow]

That literally makes no sense since Mathilda is probably one of the people I most respect in this lobby and I'm also pretty sure it's town.

Explain to me why you interpret that as me telling her to shut up.

Explain to me why you're telling someone you're claiming to scumread to 'help town', and by doing what exactly?

And this follow orders thing is a joke.

In short
I ask Mathilda to explain, you tell her not to: she complies
I ask Mathilda to explain, you tell me not to: she agrees and complies
I ask Mathilda to explain, you tell me not to: i'm currently awaiting her response
I see a pattern here.

Explain to me why you're telling someone you're claiming to scumread to 'help town', and by doing what exactly?

"help town": provide the info asked for, making yourself more readable
"follow orders": deny the town this info (because RF keeps insisting you do)
Just add some emphasis on how (continued) refusal will look.

Mrtrow, what happened to your Newbie scum read? Why is Mathilda scummier than Newbie?

It is still there, the self-conscious thing mostly. The 'i've made my case, now i'll vanish with no intent to push it' doesn't sit all that well either.
As for why Mathilda is worse: see above.
Not only was she told to let the Lowell lynch happen, she listened: repeatedly.
(And yes this does mean i suspect RF3 by association. A reread focused on your large 'must be town if RF3 is scum'-list, might be needed here)

There might also be a slight issue, of me overselling my intent to comply with Maths case, should she actually present it D1.

[MrTrow]

Competing with RF3, but that case is mostly linked, so: yes

[MrTrow]

Agreed. People are just repeating the same arguments and ignoring any responses as if they were never made. Trow and Droog are guilty of this.

Care to back this up?
What did i ignore, what response did you make that i pretended weren't there?

Good to see your Droog (and pip) case(s), i'll get to those tomorrow (currently 2am here).
If there aren't any specific accusations of ignored responses in there, please fix that or explain the accusation above there as well.

Also, i would like to hear your thoughts on RF3's attempts to keep you from presenting those 2 cases.

As for the pip-math 'who can annoy the other the most with usage of color'-contest. Please don't. (i don't really see anything relevant to alignment in there, but it is annoying)


RC: were you aware that the 'faking a townslip', by 'forgetting to log into your hydra because genuinely annoyed, others don't see the obv-read you have', becomes significantly less effective/believable the moment you start spamming it?

Also care to explain your egg-read?
The 'had you as town since page 3' IS in the breakdown.

I hope to get to the Newbie-Droog exchange tomorrow as well, but as of now RF has risen to competing with Math for top-scum-read

[MrTrow]

I've said my piece

Am i to take this to mean you have no intent what so ever to answer:

Agreed. People are just repeating the same arguments and ignoring any responses as if they were never made. Trow and Droog are guilty of this.

Care to back this up?
What did i ignore, what response did you make that i pretended weren't there?

Also, i would like to hear your thoughts on RF3's attempts to keep you from presenting those 2 cases.

I was sitting on the sidelines because Taly and Farrar disagreed with all my reads.

Lowell flipped town. I'm calling the shots now.

Let me get this straight:
You have 2 mod-confirmed townies telling you, you are wrong.
And still you consider, 'not blindly following your lead' a lynch-worthy offence?

Please explain.

While you're at it, could you get around to explaining why, you were actively preventing me from getting a read on mathilda?

Scum are trying hard, town besides myself and Mathilda are just lurksaucing.

Vote

with

me for town win.

FTFY:
VOTE: RF3

[MrTrow]

@Mathilda

I've said my piece

Am i to take this to mean you have no intent what so ever to answer:

Also, i would like to hear your thoughts on RF3's attempts to keep you from presenting those 2 cases.

Even if you consider

I explained several times now that my case against Droog and Something Pip stemmed from them denying the possibility that there were scum on the Lowell wagon and all their scum reads being people who were not on it. Yet you kept ignoring this and kept demanding that I made a case against Pip.

a decent response to me asking what the case you claim to be pushing actually is (because it is lost somewhere in a list of long posts etc)

My point 'RF3 did not feel the same way and was actively trying to stop me from asking' still stands.
So especially given his 'fuck everyone in this game, fuck the game itself, fuck even those who share my slot' double-down on faked-townie-outrage (and blatant refusal to answer WHY).
What do you think about his recent actions?

At this point i prefer to lynch RF3 over you. (but not by much).
Give me something to work with.

[MrTrow]

Like you've legitimately put me in a position where the correct play for us would be to post our role PM and get modkilled so you'd know that I'm town here and stop sheeping scum onto crap wagons.
Taly insisted on BPing N1 because he figured that we'd get NKed with me in the hydra so we can't even return fire.
This game is just nonsensical.
last post, bye!

NO, JUST NO.

The correct play would be, you answering some damn questions.
You explaining WHY the slot who at least several townies are on(5 + effectively me and pip: is at least 4 townies), is (so obviously) town. Would be helpful.
So would answering WHY you were actively preventing attempts to get reads out of this slot.
So would kicking a certain other head of yours into answering the exact same question.

[MrTrow]

I hope to get around to do a reread this weekend, but

V/LA till friday

(at least: deadline-hell atm)

resign with shitty reads list?

My Spidey sense is tingling...

I'm pretty sure all three scum are in <Newbie, MrTrow, shaddowez, RF3slot, Egg>.
Going to do a close read and take notes. You probably won't hear much from me in the next few days.
-the smart head

Sounds familiar (yes i know the key part of that post is missing: speaking of which)

@NEWBIE:
- lowell refused to play, it got him mislynched
- mathilda refused to (clearly) restate her case, it got her mislynched
GET IN HERE AND BACK YOUR LIST UP

@Tidus: your refusal to put someone at L-1 before everyone checked in, while scum is steamrolling the game, has been noted (i like it)
A lot more than i like karnage-push to not do that.

i'd prefer a newbie lynch over a something pip lynch atm

Any particular reason you're only looking at 'the only ones shaddowez is willing to lynch'?

Trow put into words what I was thinking but didn't want to articulate quite yet.

Care to be specific on this one?
What exactly did i say, you believe was in the towns best interest not to 'articulate quite yet'?

VOTE: Something pip

[MrTrow]

I want to get my initial thoughts out now.
-the smart head

Trow put into words what I was thinking but didn't want to articulate quite yet.
-the smart head

Care to be specific on this one?
What exactly did i say, you believe was in the towns best interest not to 'articulate quite yet'?

So 'what were you thinking/talking about when you said x', falls under 'a joint effort between me and pip' rather than 'an initial thought'?
I think i like where my vote is.

If you would be so kind to answer that very simple question, before you take enough time off to decide on whether or not you're going to let newbie be lynched and take a 'joint effort', in trying to figure out what answer people WANT to hear.

[MrTrow]

And it may be confbias but I hate how you assumed I was trying to answer your question when I wasn't.

Yeah.......
That did not happen.
I did not assume you wanted to answer my question.
I accused you didn't.

And guess what: you still didn't.
Which of your thoughts did i put in which words?

Or are you going to wait till you've finished your 'i already said i'm not sure, but i'm going to name the entire team now'-case before actually answering?

[MrTrow]

So not only the emptiest statement, but also the oldest?
'gone from competing for #2 scum, to competing to #1 scum' was what you were referring to with 'what i thought but didn't want to articulate'
And now brushing off what i've been saying since my fourth post (back when replacing in, @D1) as something new a week into D2.

If there is anyone out there who believes this answer: WHY?

[MrTrow]

PIP: 2 questions:
- do you believe even a single word of that case you just presented?
- which one?
(there is no way, 2 town-aligned players, sat together, went over this case and both signed off on it)

and I started the counterwagon on RF3 yesterday.

Wasn't the fact i was pushing RF3, while you believed it in the town's best interest, to keep your suspicions of RF3 hidden.
Your entire answer to our, 'what were you saying here (because i doubt there is a town-motivation for this)'-exchange.

That statement of which you, take my unwillingness, to tell you which explanation i would buy, as your entire connection-independent argument.

@Newbie:
I have a reason to think you are town.
Do something with it.
Give us something to work with.
Back up your reads.

[MrTrow]

Actually droog did explain why.
Doms entry was indeed terrible, but wouldn't help him much (if at all) as scum.
All it did was piss people off.
Droog pointed out (that, while undeniably anti-town), scum would likely avoid doing that.

The droog-math exchange is something i still have to dive into (again, i hope to have time this weekend)

Do you have any thoughts on pips case?
I'm mostly interested in: what makes you think both 'something' and 'pip', actually believe what they stated there?
(but other thoughts are also welcome of-course)

[MrTrow]

Lowell was town though, so the 'tell' still stands. (now i'm wondering if 'why didn't you consider lowell town?' is a question that was ever posed to him. (if so and unanswered, you might have a point here))

As for pip: If you don't believe, they believe their own case.
Why aren't you voting them?
Or posted any concerns on the matter?

[MrTrow]

Because I'm waiting to see certain interactions.

I expect you to deliver on these later

@Newbie:I have a reason to think you are town

What reason is that?

I've been vague on this because i wanted newbie back to posting, before anyone could try to counter this. But:
The nightkill.
The 2 obvious upcoming lynches were Newbie and RF3 (both in order of likeliness, and in order it was going to happen) and pretty fast at that.

They killed off, the fresh perspective: at least one of those 2 is town

[MrTrow]

I've not got word from Taly so I guess I'll be taking over on my own. I've not read since the end of day 1 as I was kind of wrong on all fronts so Bells decided to take over. Catchup'll take some time, is there anything pressing I should address?

Let me get this straight:
Are you saying there has been no in-hydra communication for all of D2?

[MrTrow]

It's funny how Trow's case on us is primarily based one one thing I said, and how he can't see why that's pro-town.
That's what made us most confident on him. Newbie, what is town about him?

Should i take this as 'no intent what so ever to answer'

PIP: 2 questions:
- do you believe even a single word of that case you just presented?
- which one?
(there is no way, 2 town-aligned players, sat together, went over this case and both signed off on it)

and I started the counterwagon on RF3 yesterday.

Wasn't the fact i was pushing RF3, while you believed it in the town's best interest, to keep your suspicions of RF3 hidden.
Your entire answer to our, 'what were you saying here (because i doubt there is a town-motivation for this)'-exchange.

That statement of which you, take my unwillingness, to tell you which explanation i would buy, as your entire connection-independent argument.

So yeah, pip-case:
- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed a case made up entirely of connection-tells, call it occam's razor, and actually believe it themselves.
- there is no way 2 people sat together, formed any of the arguments elsewhere in that case and actually believed it.
- claimed there was something new in a post, but refused to state what. when pressed about it, presented something that only wasn't new, but also directly contradicts their own views:
'the thing trow stated, that we didn't want out there: "RF3 might be scum" ', 'do you really believe i've been bussing the entire game: i'm the one that started the RF3 wagon'
- presents the fact i think they're scum as a scumtell.

the next most likely team is Trow/shaddow/Newbie

Care to present 'the case we've all been waiting for'
literally anything but occam's razor, on this one?
btw wasn't your 'other' case based on all-but-one egg-centered interactions AND the plan to push a mislynch on newbie?

Present your case on this one please.


What's the case the other way around?:
- thinks i'm scum therefore must be scum
- sees no town motivation in a lie.
- hey i can twist the votecounts into something that might (read: doesn't) make sense on these 3
- at the moment it would be easy to stay/be on unnoticed, he jumped off a wagon at the hint of 'not being on this wagon is a scumtell'

Care to state where my vote should have been instead?
or was that just an empty accusation as well?

TL;DR: VOTE: Something pip
case is shit
accusations make no sense (but i repeat myself)
refuses to back stuff up (but i repeat myself)

[MrTrow]

But at no point during D2 did RC contact you to ask for a second set of eyes?

[MrTrow]

pretty sure trow was already voting something pip

I most certainly was. (and am)

so indeed PIP @ L-1

Question is: why aren't you?

No i'm not telling you to hammer (i want to hear from the headless hydra before that happens)
I'm asking you to comment on the 'btw. no i will not vote my scumread, in fact i'm considering you to be scum(completely unrelated of-course), even if that completely contradicts everything in my case(which still holds up enough to not lynch you yet, don't worry)'

Anything about the 'initial' case might also be useful

Or are you going to hold on to your accusation, that newbie contributed more in D3 is all completely my fault and that somehow makes me scum?
In that case, how about explaining that logic?

[MrTrow]

Did you know you were already voting Something Pip?

Did i know my vote was already on the currently scummiest person in thread,
when i restated my vote in a TL;DR?
Yes i did.

I knew my vote was already on the persons who accused me of voting them for no good reason, in the very post i was responding to.
a post that dodged all criticism of the intent behind his flat out terrible case.

Given how

That's not VCA. That's trying to make VCA fit with your theory.

you seem to doubt his sincerity, in that case.

Same question i posed to karnage:
Why aren't you voting him?


Agreed with the question @newbie not being fluff.

Newbie:
did you know it was not a hammer?
did you care?
why not?

also
did you see the interactions you were waiting for, before voting?

[MrTrow]

Thanks for the format change, pip. There are actually some pretty solid points against Mrtrow there.

There are?
What are they?

btw. pip, if you would be so kind to state your actual case against me, that would be great.

Yourself would be a good bet, shaddowz if you don't want to selfvote and still want to vote scum.

What i meant was: your case on me (well, the part that is remotely tangible anyway)
is that my vote (the one that just happened to be on you, but this obviously has nothing to do with your scumread on me) is bad.
I ask you what would have been a good vote at that point and why. (in other words, can you prove, this point of your case 'vote was bad', was not a completely empty accusation?)
Obviously 'a self-vote' is not a remotely informative (or otherwise genuine) answer.
Care to try again? (perhaps a motivation for why i should have voted shaddowz other than 'as our occam's razor connection-tell-list shows, the 2 of you are most likely buddies with egg(who btw, is not scum)')

Going over the 'case' now.

[MrTrow]

So your entire case on me, is a single reaction-test.
The cases you've presented so far, were all bullshit, just to drive that reaction-test.

And the fact that i pointed out your, 'shut up scum'-answer to someone who had to be town for your entire case to have ANY merit, was exactly that. (a 'shut up scum')
Is enough to name the entire team?


So at this point, we are all suppose to forget:
- presents 'vote was bad' as argument, but when asked 'really?, which vote would not have resulted in you saying that?'. Can't(or wont) back up the claim
- presents 'was not on the wagons' as an argument, conveniently missing: 'stated intent to hammer, with a clear time indication, but was sniped WITHIN stated time'
- states to disappear for a few days, but when voted, feels the need to pop in and declare the voter scum (to later present a terrible case INTENDED to justify said call, while the 'research' to reach that conclusion still had to be done at that point)
- claimed there was something new 'that would have been in towns best interest to remain silent' in a certain post, when asked to explain, brings up a part that not only is not new, but even something they later claim i sheeped them on.
(for those keeping track, my initial 'pip-vote' was on the assumption no townie answer would come in response to this (and without the additional pressure no response would come at all) )
- responds to 'your new scum-team is mutually exclusive with the case you've presented on which 2/3 of the new reads is still based on, care to back ANY of this up', with 'maybe later, btw you are useless'

Spoiler: tries to manipulate us on voting egg

- sp presents a case (dependent on newbie being town) that states egg is scum
- newbie askes: SP please vote egg (a scumread of yours, that might actually go anywhere, aka the only read she agreed with)
- sp answers 'shut up scum' (completely undermining his own case)
- i ask karnage to respond to the 'shut up scum' answer or the original case (as he has not yet posted a single word on the matter)
- sp twists the post above into some 'mastermind scum ploy'

Maybe more tomorrow,
On to the direct questions:

Yeah, keeping on asking people why they aren't voting us, nice distraction, I'll have to start adding this to my scum game it seems to work really well.

Well, it got an explanation out of egg.
What Karnage will say when he finally acknowledges, basically anything that happened today, will probably be informative too.
Didn't it get you to reveal your scumread on newbie?
Care to explain how this is scum-indicative?

Who are our partners?

That's the thing, my case doesn't require me to know who your partners are to hold.
Should you manage to get me mislynched, your case on newbie, egg and shadow, completely collapses. But hey, you're the one with towns best interest at heart.
But sure lets entertain this one:
Karnage has gone through some effort to not acknowledge, your case. AT ALL.
he would be my first bet. (the detail he did keep track of the votes on this case, he doesn't want to talk about, feels a bit weird too)
Maybe egg, but probably not. The 'was that a hammer'-exchange, not between scum, on scum
3rd: no idea, one of the 2 afks?
the one on who you wanted to be seen pushing a counter-wagon, which you didn't actually push and didn't believe was going anywhere, has a slight edge on this one.
The detail you 'did not want to articulate' it was by their will mathilda never presented the case that could have saved both lowell and herself, might also be a factor here.

Why exactly is the case bad

- Decides the outcome, THEN start looking for connection-tells and VCA to back it up
- takes being on the receiving end of a vote as a cornerstone to build the case on
- basically see above (+ pushing 10 connection-tells, which argue against the very case you're pushing)

and why is that alignment indicative?

- insincere process
- structured to not provide any info what so ever on a mislynch
- crapload o disclaimers

Our wagon is made of Titus and people we called scum, 2 of whom are asking us to vote egg, which is why I said no because of how suspect that was.

Correct, according to you: in the 4 votes on you, sits the ENTIRE scumteam. (doesn't that fly in the face of your entire 'scum will not ALL be on the same wagon, they will even jump OFF to make room for their buddies on moments no-one will look for the scumteam based on being on that wagon')
One of which, incidentally, is some who you called scum BECAUSE she asked you to vote egg. (and she's not the only one you're calling scum, because she's doubting you)

So did you realize that people would take it as a new vote? Were you reaction testing? What do you think of Newbie's vote?

It was not intended as a reaction test.
But i have no problem in kicking those who aren't reading the thread (which is a requirement, for thinking i wasn't on pip already) into action.
As for the reaction it did get:
I'm not surprised by newbies vote.
After all pip called her scum and undermined his entire case in a single line.
I'm not saying voting on that is the most logical thing to do, it is EXACTLY what one would expect from a reactionary player like newbie.
To be honest, i find the detail, you missed that i already was on pip (which was part of his case, aka the only thing going on at the time) more interesting

[MrTrow]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying her reaction is a null tell and says more about her playstyle than anything. Because if so, that hardly helps as far as reactions. If Something Pip is lynched and flips town, do you see this vote the same way (assuming I'm not misunderstanding) or will you then see it as opportunistic scum?

Yup.
It is spot on character-consistent.
It in no way indicates the vote, or the rest of her play is staged.
Sure it is still possible both are staged (but that would then be well executed)
But no, deliberately placing yourself on the quick-lynch-track to get an 'accidental hammer' in? not seeing it.
Should pip flip town (like that's gonna happen), i will look at that point again.
I'm quite certain i'll reach the same conclusion though.

I wanted to see if Pip would actually put his vote on Egg and how Egg would interact with Pip's wagon.

And?
What do you think of eggs interaction with pip's wagon?


@Pip: How did newbie go from 'being the mislynch, scum is pushing' to 'scum' apart from the fact she asked you to vote the read you agree on?

[MrTrow]

if you think "titus you suck" was some elaborate scum ploy...

Awaiting the other half of this sentence.
How can this be read as anything other than an attempt to WIFOM, 'titus is buddy'?

I don't necessarily agree with SP's case but I don't think it's awful. I'm not putting any stock into their VCA though.

So, you don't put any stock in the part they called an irrelevant afterthought after it was torn apart.
And remain 'null' on the merits of anything that remains?

So what do you agree with?
What don't you agree with?
And (apart from whether or not it is awful) what makes you think it is genuine?

As for 'what is the point of restating something in a TL;DR?', pretty much 'the point of the concept TL;DR' (let those who skim the wall know what argument is being backed up in it)
what was the point of that question?

Mrtrow, I wasn't really looking at Newbie's late votes on wagons as an attempt to get someone to accidently hammer. I feel like the idea is more to get townies lynched by bringing them closer to that point. Of course if you think Something Pip is scum, that wouldn't apply here. But we saw it with her votes on concvex and lowell as well and lowell flipped town already.

Still the character-consistency holds. She didn't break her 'normal play' to place that vote, there's nothing insincere i can see in there.
What about the concvex and lowell votes seems insincere to you?

[MrTrow]

I wasn't talking about the tl;dr

TL;DR: VOTE: Something pip

Care to try again?

The 'second vote post':
'here is the screen-filling-wall case/reason, i am currently voting SP (most if not all of it was already in thread. A detail SP is currently actively denying(which btw, is part of the case))'
TL;DR: VOTE: Something pip

Care to explain what is anti-town about that?

Given how you've just seen:
egg getting a read on newbie based on a reaction to a re-vote.
titus, myself (and i assume anyone who read it) getting a read on SP based on a reaction to a re-vote.
Care to explain why you can't see a town motivation behind the idea of revoting?

Care to explain the scum-motivation you're actively implying here?

Care to answer the questions regarding Sp's case, i posed in direct response to you being as vague as you believed you could get away with?

[MrTrow]

Given how you've just seen:egg getting a read on newbie based on a reaction to a re-vote.

If that's where you think I started scumreading Newbie, you don't get to accuse me of not reading.

I never said it was a new read.

If i was, that would mean (at the very same point)

Given how you've just seen:
egg getting a read on newbie based on a reaction to a re-vote.
titus, myself (and i assume anyone who read it) getting a read on SP based on a reaction to a re-vote.
Care to explain why you can't see a town motivation behind the idea of revoting?

I said i wasn't scumreading SP before he started wifoming 'titus is buddy'
I said titus wasn't scumreading SP, when she was freakin trapping them.

So which is it?
Aren't you reading?
Are you mudslinging?
Are you somehow invested in discrediting 'Karnage, your accusation: 're-votes are inherently anti-town', is false and you know it'(without actually addressing the point)?
Or is this something for which a clear explanation will be in your next post?

Wagons pick up steam and get close to lynch and she decides to push them to the tipping point.

Care to back this up?
Because, well, to be direct. This was NOT the case in either of the examples you've stated thusfar.

In the meanwhile, i'll try not to overthink the detail you just flat out stated, your attempt to pin me as newbie's buddy, is the only reason you're even interested in questioning this read. Otherwise i might come to something ridiculous like, you're trying to tell me to shut up and let her be (mis)lynched already:
like Johnny told mathilda to do to lowell, or rc told mathilda(and me and ,well, everyone) to do to, well, mathilda.
Or planting an excuse to stay out of SP-centric arguments.

Speaking of which: how do YOU see anything other than 'wifoming 'titus is buddy' ' in that 'response to hammer'?

[MrTrow]

One other thing to say is that Trow accused us of twisting the facts to support our conclusions. This is demonstrably false.

Really?
Then demonstrate it.

went into the associative hunting with an open mind

My analysis is

not finished

, but here is the conclusion I am formulating:
Egg, MrTrow and shaddowez are scum.

You could of course also start answering some other questions, ones you've ignored before, like:
- You claim, my vote on you is so terrible, it warrants a scum-read. Yet when asked, 'really? what should my vote have been? and why?' (implied, for you argument to stand, there must have been a better option). No answer.
- When asked 'what was that thought you didn't want to articulate', the answer was 'RF3 has gone from my competing-#2 scumread, to competing-#1 scumread' and consider 'not seeing a town-motivation in that statement'(which had to be pulled out of you) as reason for a scumread.
Care to explain how, me making that statement is in any way responsible, to you agreeing with said scumread?
Care to explain how, me making that statement 'risen a bit, but has not been an 'uncontested town' since D1. In any way changed the info you would get out of the RF3-math exchange?

Care to explain (given how you have no explanation to the 2 questions above), how your accusation is anything other than fabricated?

I went through and marked each time that one of them mentioned another of them in a way that could be alignment-indicative

(null mentions are omitted)

First off, neither of us are particularly experienced at VCA and the conclusions brought were more about

the lack of interaction

between the 3 players rather than the VCA.

Care to explain?
How is this not fabricated?

There is also still the outstanding issue of you claiming to be the one that started the RF-wagon
And claiming i'm the one opening up any RF is not obv-town reads.
Care to explain?

You are so upset by us calling you scum that you are willing to vote us

What's the case the other way around?:
- thinks i'm scum therefore must be scum

We called you scum in that huge case before you called us scum dude. You are flipping the chronology

Here it is. The case you've all been waiting for.

What first caught my eye was the really terrible votes at the beginning of day 3
Trow’s is awful

You were saying?


Have you answered:
- did you have any reason other than 'asked you to vote egg', to switch to newbie-scum?
Just to be perfectly clear:
I'm NOT asking you to rewrite/restate the case you threw out for a moment 'because she seemed to be a mislynch-target'
I'm asking if there was anything OTHER than the fact she asked you to vote your mutual scumread, why you picked it out of the trash

-

Please humor me and show me - 1) how I "reacted really poorly", and 2) where I'm trying to manipulate you to vote Egg.

- any response what so ever to my answer of your wall?

[MrTrow]

So which is it?Aren't you reading?Are you mudslinging?Are you somehow invested in discrediting 'Karnage, your accusation: 're-votes are inherently anti-town', is false and you know it'(without actually addressing the point)?Or is this something for which a clear explanation will be in your next post?

Just another point against someone I already thought was scum. Also, fake votes are fine. I've done it before.

So what exactly IS your point here?
Because you're not saying anything that's actually related to what you're responding to.

Wagons pick up steam and get close to lynch and she decides to push them to the tipping point.

Care to back this up?
Because, well, to be direct. This was NOT the case in either of the examples you've stated thusfar.

Actually, it is. She's been like a L-2 or L-1 vote what? 3 times now?

You've named concvex and Lowell right?
One case of 'i'm considering to vote this lurker', 'why don't you? help me add some pressure' -> 'ok' (clearly pre tipping point)
And one of 'the only reasonably possible outcomes here are a lowell-lynch or a no-lynch(due to deadline)' -> 'fair enough' (clearly post tipping point)

In the meanwhile, i'll try not to overthink the detail you just flat out stated, your attempt to pin me as newbie's buddy, is the only reason you're even interested in questioning this read

Nah dude. Something Pip raised a few points against you that were pretty solid

I was talking about your willingness to discuss your newbie read being unrelated to being willing to (re)consider your newbie read

Do you mean these points?

Trow, things Pip said that I agree with:
-You are acting like only scum make bad cases and just screaming that they are scum without any genuine attempt to help town.
-You're awfully defensive against a case you call weak.
-You accused them of OMGUS when it's clearly the other way around.
-You aren't looking for scum intent in Pip's actions.
-Your reaction to the case is just generally bad.

the answers to that would be:
- false and false
- it is called offensive (i'm not calling the case 'weak', i'm calling it fake)
- as stated: the case itself starts with stating the early D3 votes (mine explicitly included), were what drove them to write the case
- i did state i'm calling the case FAKE, right? and the several cases where they are dodging questions?
- can you back this up, cause they won't

and then I saw this Newbie connection and you flipped out.

really?
where?
when?

You were doing a pretty good job at staying active and under the radar at the same time, but then a couple of people say a couple of things that might make people suspicious of you and now you're on a crusade against those people (Something Pip and myself).Now maybe you just don't react well to pressure. Some people are like that. But at the very least, I'm storing it in the back of my mind.

what pressure?
That case that's been called bad (voteworthy fake by 3(apart from myself), the obvious result of confirmation-bias by 1 (you, if i'm not mistaken)) at the time i was accused of being afraid of a case that (by those numbers alone) can't be a threat?

. It looked like someone upset at being lynched. I dunno about you, but I don't like being lynched. It doesn't happen to me often, but when it does, it feels shitty regardless of alignment.

But do you blame 1 specific person?

So basically, that reaction is as null as it gets as far as Pip's alignment, but I really think is he was scum with Titus we'd have seen a better WIFOM attempt or a non-reaction. I mean just look at that follow up that screams "lol Titus you're not getting a reaction from me". If they were scum together, he'd be in the mindset where the rest of the game is the audience, not Titus.

But who would he want everyone to think he was addressing?
'the rest of the game' ? don't think so.
Also the pre-emptive empty counter of when not containing anything remotely aimed at convincing titus(see pre-emptive, also the lack of a second half of that sentence)
and no reason to believe anyone was going to draw that conclusion. (Other than the 'obv-scum who will not be convinced by it anyway and will twist it into, well, me')
Who was that post aimed at, if not at town-trow, who he claims to be sure of, doesn't exist?

Then again i have seen scum get someone mislynched, by getting angry over being bussed before.

The response of:
'here is why it makes perfect sense for trow to think this as the result of confirmation bias.(begging the question) Therefore he is scum'
Not helping.

Admittedly, it still is chump change compared to:
- pushes fake arguments (not bad. fake)
- refuses to answer questions

[MrTrow]

So what exactly IS your point here?Because you're not saying anything that's actually related to what you're responding to.

You asked about it. I answered. If you want more, be specific.

- karnage takes my revote as scummy (as there is no town benefit to them)
- i point to a couple of benefits of recent revotes (to show his 'no town benefit' is demonstrably false)
- you counter 'that was not a new read i got from it'
- i point out i never said the gained reads were 'new' just 'useful' (and explain why that should have been obvious from the text) and ask/imply if you might have an interest in defending karnage
- you reply, fake votes are fine and more proof of some scumread
- i ask: wait, how does that follow from this conversation?

You've named concvex and Lowell right?One case of 'i'm considering to vote this lurker', 'why don't you? help me add some pressure' -> 'ok' (clearly pre tipping point)And one of 'the only reasonably possible outcomes here are a lowell-lynch or a no-lynch(due to deadline)' -> 'fair enough' (clearly post tipping point)

Droog replaced in at L-1. Had the replacement not happened, a hammer was probably coming.

There were multiple explicit 'pressure'-votes on that wagon, i'm not so sure

And if not for Newbie's Lowell vote, no lynch was definitely a possibility.

Didn't she stay off that lynch until the 'the only alternative is a no-lynch' was explicitly pointed out (after it had been obvious for some time?)

Newbie is blatantly scummy and her voting record shows it and everyone is either ignoring it or defending her. I just don't get it.

For the reasons re-stated above, those votes do not show such intent.
Other reasons to think her scum....., well maybe (still fighting a deadline here, so i haven't gotten around to the reread yet)
Still, by the nightkill-to-sustain-the-current-direction (while there was a player still in the process of replacement (the safer bet, if it all was to dodge the PGO) )
and SPs: 'egg is town because scum(newbie, and only newbie) is asking me to vote egg, and newbie is scum because she's asking me to vote egg' - bullshit
Imply to me she's likely town.

And then there is the detail 'by the fact not a single opportunistic scum has hammered SP yet: either the entire scumteam is either already on that wagon (or droog) or SP is scum'
also his most recent: no i will not answer anything.... lets just say i know the feeling of people refusing to vote obv-scum

- can you back this up, cause they won't

Not without repeating what they've said and what I have. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not there.

Then re-state it.
At this moment all they have is:
'trow did not vote himself at daystart, therefore he must be scum. Ow and the fact he keeps saying no townie would ever make that previous statement'
And no backing what so ever why restating 'non-selfvote as scumtell and similar bullshit (and refusal to answer questions that would probably result in similar bullshit) is not something a townie would ever actually believe(especially not one who has private communication with another (to him) mod-confirmed townie to run this all past)' is 'a bad reaction'

Then again i have seen scum get someone mislynched, by getting angry over being bussed before.

And then call out their buddy while the game is still going on? Maybe in Newbie games or when somebody who belongs in the Newbie queue takes on something they can't handle. I don't think I've ever seen that from a non-newbie and like I said, I've played a shit ton.

Apparently this story wasn't clear:
A scum realizing he was lynched threw a temper tantrum on the TOWNIE that got him lynched.
He accused THE COP of being his buddy, of being so full of himself, to think he could win this game on his own, the fact that he was his buddy was the only reason he was so sure(i did mention the target was COP, right?), etc
The next day, town quicklynched THE COP, because obv-buddy. (it was face-to-face btw)


@Shadow:

Trow

, what are your thoughts on Karnage focusing on the votes on Pip's wagon?

Not nearly as telling as his denial of (the existence of) the cases (both those by and on) pip, existence until directly confronted with it.
And even then being as vague as possible about which parts he does and doesn't agree with. (and vanishes when that seems to fail)
But a valid addition to the list of 'why karnage is probably covering his buddy pip'.

karnage-scum + town-pip remains unlikely (as i see no reason why that would not have resulted in a hammer by now)

[MrTrow]

What makes you think there is one?

[MrTrow]

cause if there isn't than lynching you, shaddow and Newbie is guaranteed to have at least 2 scum in it.

Either commited to a wagon (which according to pip, scum never does) + droog, contains the entire scumteam or pip is scum.
Correct

Any reason why you rather clarify this and draw a conclusion based on the combination (trow is right AND trow is wrong)
rather than answer questions actually posed to you?

cause if there isn't than lynching you, shaddow and Newbie is guaranteed to have at least 2 scum in it.

Isn't blindly assuming this (despite being firmly of the belief, scum will not jump together on the same wagon) the entire reason scum-pip blatantly refuses to answer:
- care to point out where anyone on your scum-team apart from the one who went from 'the scum-driven mislynch' to 'scum for manipulating you in voting your shared read'(by nothing more than asking exactly that, while egg did not call you scum, while calling your entire case fabricated ('that is not a VCA, that is twisting a VCA to match predetermined conclusions')), 'manipulated you in trying to vote egg'
- care to point out why 'town trow would have self-voted at the start of D3' (or for which other reason, 'no better option needed to exist' to call the vote that did happen 'terrible')
- care to explain why 'that is not why i'm scumreading you' is a valid answer to any question posed to you?
- care to explain why 'you need to name the entire scum-team, or your case on me is invalid (even if it does explain, why it doesn't need any connection to hold)' is an argument at all?
- care to explain why you flat out ignored my reads on 'your team' in response to this very question, if you did actually believe it was a valid question?
.....
do i really have to restate the entire list, just to have you ignore it again?

So turns out you were interested in my Karnage read? Well I had him as town early, but then scum. Then he started tunneling my biggest scum read. So basically I have to wait for Newbie to flip to sort him. Because I'm pretty sure Newbie is scum which would make Karnage likely town despite his individual scumminess. Have fun with that one lol. For what it's worth, I'd lynch him over Something Pip.

As expected 'do think he's scummy, will NOT lynch, discussing 'individual scumminess' is useless'

The 'will lynch Karnage (who had plenty of opportunity to sneak in a hammer) over SP (who needs to be town, for this stance to make sense)' is interesting though.
Why?

Then re-state it.

We've talked in circles on this enough. The discussion is getting stale. All I care to say on this is that if his case is so bad and obviously fake, the fact that you turn into a rabid fucking zebra or some shit over it doesn't feel natural.

Explicit refusal to answer something that could clear this thing up....... somehow i'm not surprised.
Town-egg, if you are out there:
- do you recall what happened when Mathilda did the same thing D1 (because Johnny told her to)? (admittedly the weakest in the list)
- do you recall what happened when Mathilda did the same thing D2 (because RC told her to)?
given your read on SP
- do you see which way SP is heading now because (SP and) you are doing the EXACT SAME THING?

that sounds like absolutely terrible play and I stand by my comment that there is no excuse for anything similar outside of Newbie games. Pip doesn't strike me as someone who would out his team over being bussed. However, he hasn't even flipped scum yet so this discussion is kind of pointless. All I know is if he does flip scum, I won't be joining you in lynching Titus.

Dude, READ THE FUCKING STORY. (it is 3 sentences long)
I'm not accusing pip of being a terrible scum-player who would actually throw the game if being bussed.
I'm accusing him of 'wifoming a buddy' on probably NOT a buddy (a decent scum-play)
I have no intent what so ever to go after titus when SP flips scum. Stop pretending i claimed i would.
Titus' parallel in the story IS THE COP. (the townie who got lynched, because the scum that got lynched the day before, knew what he was doing)

Actually, this is interesting. Because if he does believe scum would have hammered (droog hasn't posted and Johnny hasn't caught up though so meh), the scum team would have to be Titus, shadow, and newbie from his PoV. Not sure that actually means anything, but it's kind of interesting in a way.

Seriously?
Yes from my PoV the possible scumteams are '3 out of [droog, titus, shadow ,newbie]' and 'SP and literally any other 2 players out there'.
Given how it is pretty freakin clear from my Pov the scumteam isn 'SP +2 others'
What is there remotely to be found here? (why did you scratch option 2? (or droog?))

[MrTrow]

Explicit refusal to answer something that could clear this thing up....... somehow i'm not surprised.

Actually, I answered. Read my post again.

'There is something unnatural about calling a fake case, fake'
Yeah, that part i got.
Anything that even remotely backs up the 'rabid zebra'
or WHAT the 'something' is. (or the actual case for that matter):

We've talked in circles on this enough. The discussion is getting stale.

Ok. Sorry, averaging like 3 hours of sleep between my 16 hour shifts and taking care of a 1 year old. Guess I misunderstood you again.

Fair enough(if genuine)
Good luck(even if not)
Still not sold on the 'sees an interpretation that doesn't make sense, decides not to consider having misread' (in a post that contains another admission of misreading, no less)

Like I said, it doesn't mean anything.

Then why did you bring it up?

So from your point of view, a Something Pip scum flip would confirm a Titus/shadow/newbie team from your PoV if you kept that stance.

If SP would flip scum, it would confirm SP is scum.
If SP would flip town, i would have to reconsider absolutely everything (existence of the world, temperature of hell, stuff like that included)
But yes, if SP flips town Titus/shadow/newbie/droog would contain the scumteam. (or scum knows SP will not bother answering some simple questions and get deadline-hammered, hoping apathy rises in the mean-time. but yeah, probably)

- So again: why did you scratch droog? (the fact he was physically unable to hammer IS a factor here(as i've stated))

[MrTrow]

the vca and a bunch of connection-tells was the entire shadow/egg/trow case. (well, that and the obv-scum reaction to the case they were about to present)
they then moved on to a shadow/newbie/trow case, of which they would present their case 'maybe later'
and never did

droog: any particular reason why you want to wait with getting into the 'case is fake, here are the holes in it which you could clear up if town' vs 'not gonna, and you are scum for asking', back and forth. until after the lynch?

titus: the 'none of us are any good in VCA', did refer to 'us within the hydra' (instead of 'us in the game')
At no point did SP state you don't know VCA.
The fact they presented VCA as a core point of their case and used that statement to weasel out of it, the moment it was (rightfully) torn to shreds, still stands.
(as do the 'not backed up connection tells'/'ignoring the stated connections in 'the new named team' '/'refusal to state a case on the new team'/'refusal to back up anything'/'throw around bullshit distractions'/'scum would have hammered by now' )

[MrTrow]

Great, so what do you have on an issue.
(apart from, probably no more than 3 hour)

[MrTrow]

Anything that even remotely backs up the 'rabid zebra'

Your vote and entire focus for today back that up.

Lets see:
Vote predates case.
Exact team was named in direct response to my vote(before analysis was finished), despite said to be afk for a few days to do so
Not a single argument has been even addressed.
(all of which is explicitly in thread)
So... i'm gonna take this as a no

He hadn't hammered either. But you're right that he wasn't here and I see that

you are now

including him so it doesn't matter.

Care to point to any post what so ever where i didn't include him?
This reads like a false accusation of backtracking to me.

until after the lynch?

no

so where were you?

I'm pretty sure that a scumclaim is something that can't be misguided town...

So now you are misguided town AND right about me?
This is a good lynch

[MrTrow]

do you want my timetables

No i want to know why you claimed to not put off this issue till after the lynch.
still be around (even directly respond to) claims when the lynch was going to be
and did not act on that combination.

[MrTrow]

and the world was ending or something?

Any particular purpose to this (repeatedly shown to be unfounded) addition?

[MrTrow]

congrats (you've just managed to rip the 'hell freezes over'-joke, in an answer to a 'but what if

a 'hell freezes over' scenario

happens'-question completely out of context):
now can you find one that predates the 10th accusation of overreacting in one way or the other
and actually answer the question you were responding to: what was the PURPOSE of this one?

[MrTrow]

I was responding to this, actually:

and the world was ending or something?

Any particular

purpose

to this (repeatedly shown to be unfounded) addition?

Exactly
care to answer?

The other thing was answered here:

Your vote and entire focus for today back that up.

And debunked here:

Lets see:
Vote predates case.
Exact team was named in direct response to my vote(before analysis was finished), despite said to be afk for a few days to do so
Not a single argument has been even addressed.
(all of which is explicitly in thread)
So... i'm gonna take this as a no

[MrTrow]

Let me be even more explicit. (because somehow, multiple instances of being confronted with 'it doesn't make sense, because you misread', doesn't lead to notion, it might be possible you misread)
Even if we take the fact that (apart from a 'ripped out of context', 'hell freezes over'-joke) there is not a single thing anyone has actually put forward, that remotely backs up the 'rabid zebra' accusation, out of it.

In other words:
even if we are to blindly assume i'm either
an overly sensitive reactionary moron or an overly sensitive reactionary scum. (or both)

what was the purpose of adding that assertion to your correction of SPs misread of my PoE?

[MrTrow]

after thinking about it
i want trow's head

Why am i not surprised.

Care to explain, why at no point during your little (intent to hammer) chat about whether or not pip would deliver on a case he had been sitting on for over a week by that point, did you have the time to say 'we still have 3 days, i might want to look into something here'?

Karnage, who is scum?

I would consider Newbie still and Mr Trow to most likely be scum

newbie based on overall play and trow based on yesterday

I assume this means you have answers to the questions i posed to you yesterday?

[MrTrow]

As stated in my previous post: (did you not read it, or are you asking them not to respond?)
droog and karnage.
both decided to let the SP-lynch happen, to then jump on the aftermath.
within that droog over karnage

I'll try to sneak a full reread in this weekend

[MrTrow]

So 'asking them not to respond', then?

Yes i am interested in the answers to questions.
Given how 'why did you actively dodge x' is among those questions, i find it hard to believe anyone reading it wouldn't conclude a scumread out of it.
Especially someone who believes i think 'only scum, play bad'.

As for condescending: really?
Someone who's last answer to 'what was the point of that particular insult', was 'couldn't think of a reason not to(btw, didn't even bother trying to think of a reason not to)',
is going to lecture someone else on condescension?

I also find your "I gave you enough credit to think that you were interested in their answers.", interesting.
Wasn't your entire D3 based on the decision to not give me that credit?

[MrTrow]

you wont like my answer
because its not 'game related'
but you asked me a question
that doesnt have 'game related' answers

Ok then let me rephrase:

Why did none of the posts YOU DID HAVE TIME TO MAKE (because, well, you made them) in response to Johnny's 'intent to hammer, any objections'
contain the line 'give me some more time(which we have), i still need to look at .....'?

I'm not questioning the detail, you didn't have the time to take that look before.
I'm questioning you did not ask for the time we did still have.
(the following it up with a completely empty (game-ending) read, that's not helping either)

[MrTrow]

Ok, that less than half of what happened is enough to make my point....... your point?

959: Droog: i'll get to the fights (aka, the content on which the pending lynch and its 'counterwagon' was based) later
975: Johnny: intent to hammer pip, states deadline for objections
976: Droog: i want his shad/egg/trow-case
977:Johnny aka, the one with the outstanding intent to hammer: it is right here (980:tidus confirms)
981:Johnny: if i missed something, tell me where
982: Droog: nah, there most be more
983: Johnny: not seeing it, tell me where
984: Trow: @Droog, why the wait till post lynch to get in the lynch-driving stuff?
985: Droog: i'm not
986:Trow:great, according to stated deadline, you've got 3 hours
987:(10 hours later, that is 7 hours post deadline) Johnny: HAMMER

My question:
Why did NONE of 976/982/985 contain: 'Johnny wait, i still want to take a look at the stuff, i skipped over before'
(especially 985, where johnny-hammerman had been clear on not seeing anything to wait for)
Still stands.

Or in short(and less specific):

i said i was willing to look into pip yesterday

Yup, you did SAY that, you also made sure to NOT DO that.

[MrTrow]

I gave you enough credit to think that you were interested in their answers. Guess I was wrong.

Wasn't your entire D3 based on the decision to not give me that credit?

Actually, I was voting Newbie all of Day 3. I admit you made it hard for me to stay there though.

I wasn't talking about where your vote happened to be from the moment you made it clear you would switch to whichever lynch you thought you could get.
I'm talking about the detail 'blindly assuming i'm not interested in the answers when asking questions', is the closest thing to a 'reasonable' explanation to your entire 'rabid zebra'-claim. (and given how you refuse to give another)

[MrTrow]

Are you claiming that your entire focus yesterday wasn't you going crazy

Correct
just a bunch of questions, aimed at situations that warranted a few questions.
and maybe repeatedly pointing out, they refuse to answer those questions and ask them why.

Sure if you assume, i had no interest at any point during that in the answers i repeatedly asked for, then yes, you could consider my actions crazy.
(come to think of it, entertaining the notion that at any point either of you would start answering questions after having repeatedly refused to do so, can be considered crazy as well)

about Something Pip and myself suspecting you?

You mean how i voted them, they THEN wrote a 'case' (by their own admission in response to that vote: "What first caught my eye was the really terrible votes at the beginning of day 3", literally the opening statement of 'the case') that according to (among others)

you

was nothing more than 'trying to make VCA fit with your theory.'
But still somehow i'm omgussing them in a way that is so obvious that statement does not need ANY backing?

'Like I said already. But you keep pretending I'm not.'

Because if I went back and quoted every post I'm talking about, it would basically be your entire Day 3 ISO. Like I said already. But you keep pretending I'm not.

No doubt on that one, if you were to go back (which you've refused to do for pretty much all of D3) you could probably cut out half the stuff i said.

So how about you actually do that, actually go back and give me a list of things that did happen D3, that would be deserving of a response, which i did not give.
Good luck (or any aspect of the case that wasn't disproven (other than the 'restated some questions -> overly defensive scum') )

P-edit droog: what do you think it points towards?
Also why are you looking to tell scum, who they need to leave alive for future mislynches
over finding arguments for the read you claim to already have?

[MrTrow]

and yet you manage to say even less (in response to questions directly aimed at you)

[MrTrow]

Nah, I'm a phone poster. I'm not going back and quoting your entire Day 3 just to make a point.

So you refuse to quote the conversation

we

had whether or not certain votes were opportunistic,

our

short chat about the implications of the night-kill
and a bunch of stuff you didn't respond to (so you can still claim not having read that)
To make the point those things did not happen
and your full excuse is:
- i don't feel like it
- i like my phone

1033?
im sure you support 1033
i just dont see how that fits in

really?
You don't see how 'of course he wanted to 'miss the deadline', he knew the pending hammer was on a townie'
fits as an agreement of 'here is the actual timeline, of an attempt to 'miss the deadline' '?

[MrTrow]

anyone who cares enough

So..... not you then?
This is a reasonable excuse to not provide a list of quotes.
As for making claims that are simply false and 'just pull up an ISO' would be enough to show that,
(as would 'remembering conversations you were a part of' btw)

[MrTrow]

You don't have to repeat yourself, you could instead just start actually answering stuff:

- how does the fact that my vote on SP not only predates their 'case', but the case itself FLAT OUT ACKNOWLEDGES this, not debunk the accusation my suspicion was 'scummy reactionary', when it clearly was not reactionary?
- can you find even a single thing that happened D3 that warranted a reaction from me, which i did not give? (what is it and where)

Now it wouldn't surprise me, if in response to this you do end up repeating your usual: 'you pointed out half the times SP refused to answer questions, when he as a townie had no reason what so ever, to do so, which boils down to often, so i don't HAVE to answer anything'.
But that won't help anyone, now will it.

I must also say: not a fan of that 'you will back off, or i will vote you (i have to add a disclaimer here)'-post

(I've also been trying to find where i 'went after you' and (other than maybe 'asking whether your misread of my counter to karnage's: 'trow revotes-> scum'-case, might be intended to protect karnage'), can't find it)

[MrTrow]

egg: How exactly is the read i had on you at the time in any way relevant to our little chat about whether or not newbie's votes were opportunistic?
Or anything else that actually happened?

droog:

droog: why are you looking to tell scum, who they need to leave alive for future mislynches
over finding arguments for the read you claim to already have?

[MrTrow]

i dont understand the question

i wanto to spend some time
at least figuring out one other
leaning toward newbie

Why do you want to figure out another? Which
If you're right, it won't do a thing
If wrong, you're actively helping scum by telling them which mislynch to base their NK on

Why aren't you spending this extra time, to actually state the case on the read you do already claim to have.
at least i assume you have more than the 'thinks i'm scum', you have presented
(or the scumread on convenient lynches: like Math's counterwagon, or SP when Newbie was the predetermined quicklynch (for which 'fresh input' was nightkilled))

[MrTrow]

If you're right, it won't do a thing

i dont think you understand how to play mafia

Then tell me, how does stating 'tomorrow i want to lynch x' benefit town
over waiting till tomorrow to state 'i want to lynch x'

There is also a distinct difference between your 'i want to know who i'll vote tomorrow, before voting today'
and my 'i'm looking for who's most likely to be scum, checking multiple suspects now'

[MrTrow]

this is something i still want to talk about
i just dont feel like making the effort atm

"i see a possibility to push a counter-wagon, when a lynch on someone i don't have a scumread on is imminent, maybe i'll state a case later" (no scumread on karnage, a townread on shaddow, in lylo -> did someone say quickhammer?)
Why does this feel familiar?

I'm not a fan of karnage, but i'm not liking the motivation behind that vote

[MrTrow]

im tired from a day in the hospital

Fair enough

quit your argumentative nonsense

'back off, no i will not tell you why', not gonna happen
i can wait, somewhere later this week egg is scheduled to release the case you claim to have
the lurking lynchee, should be prodded sometime around now.

So you have time to prove my claim is in fact nonsense

[MrTrow]

I'm tempted to agree: (still not a fan of the opening vote though)

@Marcrell:

Karnage has been prodded right? (not expecting an answer, but (if not), i request you do)

[MrTrow]

Reason enough to request a prod.
By itself enough reason to not vote him till i've done a thorough reread. (still deadline-hell at work)
(I believe my other reasons for not voting him(or anyone) yet, are pretty clear)

[MrTrow]

I'm actually very happy egg turned out to be scum.

It means there was at least one lynch that had actual scum involvement (other than the 'not-so-quick hammer')
(i might need to recheck D1 on this statement)

titus: nice move on 'catching egg's v/la prod-dodge', i probably would have fallen for that if there would have been a D5.
Though admittedly i started having my suspicions based on the fact you were still alive. (brushed it off as: 'this would be the time to PGO, will be dead tomorrow: if not THEN i'll worry, speaking up now would break that tell') @Droog: consider this a counter-example to 'always good to share all reads at all time'

I've also been very close a few times to asking egg regarding the 'shrug, probably just PGO-dodge'-answer to the 'why kill off 'fresh perspective' if not to ensure the pending newbie-(prob-quick)lynch':
Then why aren't you voting titus, who's slot was IN THE PROCESS OF FINDING REPLACEMENT that night: and thus the real safe bet?
So by your logic should be scum

[MrTrow]

Trow, sorry if I frustrated you.

It's pretty much, why i'm glad you turned out scum.
You had an excuse for frustrating me.
I actually had you as an 'aware bias': i really REALLY wanted you to be scum and for that reason (i think) i went easy on you. (apparently i shouldn't have )
To have 'i'm lynched? great, means i don't have to handle a V/LA' turn up town, i can handle. (that happens (unfortunately) )
But to have:
Lowell lynched over:
- his own apathy
- johnny's insistence mathilda should not clear up and present a counterwagon
- mathilda's compliance to that idea
Mathilda lynched over:
- rc's insistance mathilda keeps her case 'not concisely restated' (because 'obv-town(despite at L-1)' should not have to do that)
- mathilda's decision rc won the shouting-match with me over whether or not she should prevent her pending mislynch
SP lynched over:
- their blatant refusal to answer some simple questions regarding their case
- your insistence, they were right in refusing to do so and suggesting doing otherwise is inherently scummy

All being genuine-town-driven, that thought terrified me.

Wall battles tend to look town vs town to an apathetic town, so when you asked why I agreed with Pip, I jumped at the opportunity. Also it was a chance to unvote Newbie without looking bad if she got close to a lynch.

I believe i actually called out this part:
How 'where your vote actually was, after you flat out stated to switch to any lynch you think you can get', being irrelevant when you brought 'i was voting newbie all D3' as a counter to you doing well pretty much this. (more exactly how your entire read on me in this matter was based on 'not giving me the benefit of the doubt, i was actually interested in the answers')

For what it's worth, I do honestly believe you focused on Pip and myself Day 3 and I honestly thought it was obvious enough not to need all of the quotes.

I was focused on Pip, no argument there. (Though i do believe the 'no, you responded to basically everything' to completely shatter your 'focus is scum-indicative'-argument, which i was also going to follow up on somewhere (shortly) after wednesday)

Spoiler: the frustration on that one

I was really close to stating in my 'you still have time'-post to droog
"wednesday egg is going to present some lame excuse as to why he doesn't have the case, i'll call him out on that and then maybe he'll start on it, so i guess you have till friday to deliver"
finally scratched that part, in case of how nasty it was if you had been town
and that it was actually counter-productive to prevent the predicted pending scum-tell (the excuse)

I still completely stand by what i said there though:
If town they should have been able to answer every single question raised regarding their case, even if it was with 'oops missed that part, scratch it an moving on' if that was the honest answer.(though i do see why one might not state that out loud)
And more importantly, i still believe they should have. I mean in the end their case was 'he must be scum, because he won't believe we actually think he's scum for not voting himself'
Had they actually bothered to try to answer the questions, they'd probably realized the case didn't hold.

But no hard feelings I hope?

hard feelings? probably

Towards you? absolutely not
You treated the game anyone signing on should have.
The fact you didn't treat me the same way, that was just decent scum-play and (by extension) something i signed up for

I've also been very close a few times to asking egg regarding the 'shrug, probably just PGO-dodge'-answer to the 'why kill off 'fresh perspective' if not to ensure the pending newbie-(prob-quick)lynch':Then why aren't you voting titus, who's slot was IN THE PROCESS OF FINDING REPLACEMENT that night: and thus the real safe bet?So by your logic should be scum

Wow. I'm glad this post never happened because that's a great catch. That kill was Titus' choice and she was worried about being caught on it. Fresh perspective was the exact reason Titus wanted that kill. I wouldn't have even known what to say.

Scary thought:
After that D3, me going 'too easy' on a read, being the actual mistake *shudder*

But in all honesty, i expected your answer to be " *shrug* " and everyone (somehow) accepting this (plunging me even deeper in the 'do i just WANT this guy to be scum'-hole)
That having been said if there had been a D5 (especially given how titus wouldn't have been the N4 kill, (which i believed town-titus would have been))
I probably would have asked
(though i do see how a newbie-flip(required to even get in that situation), would have given some good(though superficial) material for my own miislynch)

Preview edit: RC, I legitimately dislike when people play the whole replace out AtE thing with no intention of leaving the game. The fact that you were scumreading me had nothing to do with it.

I've actually seen the 'follow-through'-pressure before, with a damn good motivation behind it.
There is no good reason why a townie would ever do this (true, the 'bad' reason is there), but there is a good reason for scum to do this ->
'Threatening to replace out and not replacing out, should be treated as a scum-tell'.
I don't know how accurate it is, but if RC hadn't replaced out, i would have started D3 with voting him instead

Mathilda,
Something smart,
itlpip:
please see my 'why would my alignment be a factor in that conversation'(@egg)
Even if you are convinced someone is scum when asking something (otherwise) reasonable.
Just answer.
If your read is wrong, you're helping town by doing so
If your read is correct: you're just giving me more rope to hang myself: which also benefits town.

P-edit (yes it took me that damn long to write this (that and i'm a terrible multi-tasker) ):
Titus: see my remark to egg regarding 'hard feelings'.
You treated this game with above average respect (and i don't give a shit about what that did to your treatment of me)
I look forward to seeing you in the next game

[MrTrow]

Mathilda was painfully town

But the point still stands:
Clearly not everyone felt that way (and even if they did)

You went after me, for trying to get her to show she was town.

I literally spend ALL of D2 (even late D1)
with a completely genuine:
'Mathilda, if you actually are town, answer my questions to make clear to everyone what the townie-thought-process behind your actions is/was, because clearly your approach isn't working'
Sure i went from believing 50/50 'just feeding scum more rope to hang themselves'/'helping out a lost townie'(end D1), to 'prob-scum'(early D2) to 'this guy who's convincing her she's 'obv-town'-enough, she should get herself mislynched over this, is really likely to be scum'(end D2) over the course of the whole thing, but still.

Make no mistake here, mathilda got mislynched, because you convinced her, not to let me help

[MrTrow]

pip: feel free to tell me(or everyone else), how your refusal to state
- where town-trow should have voted (as the fact scum-trow voting you was a cornerstone of your case)
- where shaddow pushed you to vote egg
- where i pushed you to vote egg
helped town.
especially after it became clear that to keep that up would get you lynched.


RC: do you know who shared the opinion (you managed to convince) Mathilda to let herself be lynched, rather than trying to actually talk to town?
Mathilda.
Or did you forget, she ended up self-voting?

And while this

Make no mistake here, mathilda got mislynched, because you convinced her, not to let me help

might just be my opinion

this is not

You went after me, for trying to get her to show she was town.

I don't particularly find it useful considering you were wrong about all your reads and I wasn't, but I'll keep it in mind.

What were your reads again?:
scum: pip, me, droog,egg (egg based on you misreading his overview).
1 in 4 as lucky shot only
town: mathilda, lowell(post lynch)

What were mine?
lets see, i pushed mathilda's counter-wagon
called 'if pip town (true very unlikely), scum mostly (if not exclusively) ON the wagon, of those OFF the wagon, Johnny and karnage would have probably hammered'

But sure, lets take your objectively superior reads as the damn good reason why you should ignore a friendly tip on how you can improve selling your reads.
(or stop defending an innocent townie into death-row)

[MrTrow]

"But you could have also just not lynched Mathilda. "

I didn't, i pushed her counter-wagon.

But yes if somewhere in your statement "you were wrong about all your reads, i was not (therefore your statement, i might have hindered others in getting reads, is not useful)", you were trying to make the point, you did not get to explore your reads because people did not blindly trust you in a game where the core premise is to not blindly trust you. then i indeed missed your point.

[MrTrow]

I get my reads through poking and prodding people to see how they react.

So why were you branding people scummy for doing the exact same thing to someone THEY clearly do not have the right read on?

btw. i did not ignore you, i called you scummy (for making the above a valid question (and refusing to answer it))

[MrTrow]

Trow was hunting scum but to be honest I couldn't understand what he was saying most of the time.

This is a problem i am aware of and have no idea how to fix it.
If you don't get what i'm saying: just ask.

Nobody ever once made a proper case against me. They just expected me to do all the defending and make cases on other people no matter how much I was scum hunting. And whatever I said, confirmation bias kicked in.

The way i saw it:
i saw you claiming to have stated a case 'against droog'/'counter-wagon for lowell', but i couldn't find it.
I found plenty of arguments on how scumhunting is supposed to work, including a complete paragraph about the fundamentals of motivation-hunting (which i agree with btw)
I assume there was a case scattered somewhere among there,
but it was written in a way that made it really hard to find it
and made it seem like 'attempting to be seen trying to push a (failing) counterwagon'

Both seemed possible to me.
So that's basically why i asked:

There's still more than a day left. That's enough time for a counter-wagon.

Could you stop trying to convince people you are trying to push a counter-wagon and instead actually push the counter-wagon.

Lets start with an easy target, me.
I have read the entire game once, in a single sitting deep into the night, chances i missed something...... reasonable.
Threat of my vote making 'the currently only viable wagon' unlynchable... zero.

Pick your counter-wagon(s) and/or your case for town-lowell, drop all assumptions about what i have and haven't noticed.
And convince me.

Basically, take a step back and (calmly) state your case.
- Whether or not it is a case you've stated before is not relevant (yes i assume it will be the same case, but if you changed your mind on stuff, or i misread, or you want to push something different altogether: ALL issues for later)
- Whether i didn't read as thoroughly as i should have, or you wrote things not as clear and concise as you think you did is not relevant. (As we have just (re)established, i'm often enough, not as clear as i think i am)

Basically trying to get clarity on what the case was, to either dispel or prove the 'wants to be seen pushing a counter-wagon to a mislynch, but doesn't want that counter-wagon to actually go anywhere'.
Not unlike eggs stance on pips case, actually.

[MrTrow]

droog:
Are you suggesting i should replace the quotes with corresponding links?
or spread it out over a multipost?

I'm also not clear on what 'walls in the usual sense' refers to here.

[MrTrow]

egg:
The number of times i implied pip might be scum, would indeed be substantial. (as i fully stand by the 'i see no town reason to not answer these questions, which (as long as they remain unanswered) are holes in their case and every single time they refuse to answer, implies they are aware of this fact, while continuing to push it' (or in short, the difference between a bad case and a fake one) )
But i still feel i held back a lot where you were involved. I'm still curious what you would come up with, for instances of ME implying YOU were scum.
Other than defending karnage by means of misrepresentation and twisting my 'can you explain how pips case can be anything other than fake, because they refuse'-question into an accusation. (because that was a genuine question, true it would not have surprised me to receive an answer that would hint at the entire defense being fake as well, but i was 'genuinely interested in the answers'), there might have been an instance (maybe 2) of 'aren't you reading or are you mudslinging' (which in the karnage-case 'revotes are(n't) inherently anti-town' or specifically the 'not a new read'-counter, when the other examples were obviously not new either(showing i didn't intent to claim they were new), i fully stand by)

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why ' 'fake outrage at being bussed' might be a good scum tactic', into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most), for 2 consecutive posts (which took A LOT of constraint btw, as it did really feel you were fishing for that remark, just to add it to exactly this list (covered by the whole 'aware bias' thing) )

[MrTrow]

@droog:
thanks '

i'll look up mastin.

And i'll consider the multiposts
I really dislike them though.
As here: a post per person addressed, there i can see the benefit of.
But arbitrary padding the post-count *shudder*, feels like 'trying to appear more active'

i'll try to pull the 'replace with links'-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

[MrTrow]

@Mathilda:
Thanks, that's definitely a tip i can work with.
(though i couldn't, on the spot, rework those posts)

I feel bad for murdering Jeanne but the last thing we needed was a fresh pair of eyes to this game. Plus, I'd feel really bad for manipulating her as scum.

About that, I actually considered arming myself on that night :3

So would i. (at least consider)
If it wasn't for the fishing-potential(intended or otherwise) regarding who had armed themselves already, i might have argued against eggs assumption (scum thought) you wouldn't.

^Like this.

Fair enough.

[MrTrow]

Just read the qt, good stuff.
I completely missed the fact you had daytalk
And egg, you trying to piss me off, into pissing you off. Interesting. (It surely explains asking 'no hard feelings?' )

Titus, the Jeanne-kill as a neon-sign on you:
Not seeing it, though to be honest, i was under the illusion you replaced in at daystart:
- Titus the safer kill
- Jeanne better to hinder a fresh perspective.
Given how slow the replacements were going (i believe there were 20+ outstanding replacements when i got in),
During the entire night it seemed plausible the town would have already set its course for the day, maybe even ended it (given the pending newbie-quick-lynch) before that replacement was found

[MrTrow]

I tried pretty damn hard to keep her alive. I couldn't.

I don't think your decision, to keep your current strategy going, after it was pointed out, your method of keeping her alive was actually killing her, helped in this regard.