SAGA FRONTIER MAFIA (GAME END)

[Titus]

Seriously, time for a huge protown Mollie rant to let her know all of the things I am going to try to apply from this game. I may even forget a few because she taught me a lot.

First things first, working with people isn't about just finding common reads and working from there. For the longest time, that's what I thought working together meant. It was immensely frustrating to have a reputation of not working with anyone when I felt that no one was willing to work with me either. We had absolutely different definitions of the phrase working together. Working together is more about getting your teammates the tools they need to succeed and letting them figure things out. Given I generally trust but verify. When people would keep on attempting to lynch my townreads, I would feel that I was ignored and thus try to persuade people to not lynch my townread regardless of Gamestate. As town, Gamestate was secondary to protecting town. If town all recognized each other, then the Gamestate issues could be overcome. That's totally the wrong way to do things to most of you. Most of you (at least I think this is accurate) value the environment over getting the desired lynch. That is so foreign to me, but I will work on that.

This was difference was really exemplified by me freaking out over the playbook in the very very early game when I was pushing Fulminator hard core. I was trying to use my tactics to push Mollie's reads. We were both getting extremely frustrated because I thought I was doing everything in my power to work with Mollie, but she thought I was doing nothing. I think, even if I have immensely slow progress at applying this, that this hydra taught me more about this definition and how I need to change for this.

I saw the practical downsides of using my definition of working together in plays by Drixx and Zulfy. Both of them felt ignored and lashed out, without looking at the game board from a rational perspective. Neither could be wound down from their plays this game. Neither attempted to give each other the tools to succeed. I figured Drixx would never murder someone who was confirmed by someone else, as you cannot get to Zulfy scum without Shiro scum. I was wrong. People sought too much power this game and not enough teamwork, universally (myself included).

By the time it came to get things done I needed to get done, everyone who knew how to work with me was fucking dead.

Second major thing is importance of the social Gamestate as much as the mechanical gamestate. I am very weak here on this. I do consider VCA to be mechanical Gamestate for this section. I do not understand town herd mentality. I do not get people on that level. I play mafia to understand people emotionally. I do say offensive things without meaning to. I am no angel on this. I feel as I am able to grasp this concept better, I will be able to work with others better. A bad flaw of mine is thinking that if all the information is laid bare, people will see things the same way. I occasionally forget a legal adage "two people observing an event may recall it very differently". It leads to one more post syndrome that is bad for the Gamestate.

This is where "ankle biting" comes in. I see people pushing my townreads, my first impulse is to protect them, particularly in hostile environments. This gets in the way of other people scumhunting and comes across as arrogant trying to impose my will upon everyone else. Rather, I thought I was being protown in keeping town alive. There is a balance here that I will need to find. If I am ankle biting you, just tell me that you've heard my reasons but this is a process you must go through. I will need that acknowledgment that I have been heard.

Third is the importance of distinguishing between town flail and scum flail. I am not good at this at all. I know it's important, but I have little to say here.

[Titus]

.

She could have hammerred with BIT. Her main vote would have been barred.

Right, so it doesn't matter. She votes and then hammers with BIT. In fact she could even vote then hammer with BIT+FIRE together. And I also assumed she had a double slash or something sparked.

That was the issue I had with your plan; it only worked if Kling was town. Scum-Kling had too many ways out.

ABR's doctor claim was fake

It turns out ABR was basically telling the truth about his role all game. He really was a doc that was sometimes bulletproof.

The shutting off of town powers explains why Drixx and Flum died. It wasn't a townie act fmpov.

Frankly, if Flum hadn't died, the game would have been much harder to break then it was for the town.

Anyway, like I said, everyone in thread but you agreed that flum should be vigged. It sucked turning off ABR's doc ability, but for a shot at getting rid of the last scum, it was worth the risk.

Honestly, even now, I think that was the correct move based on the information I had at the time.

You and ABR quicklynched Shiro. You hammerred with dual votes, which left a very strong possibility that you sparked heaven/hell the last night. If that was the case, the team I thought existed would have won today if you could hammer. 7 alive, lynch two night kills = 4 alive. 2 v 2 is scum win.

Yeah, I understand the paranoia.

Given I was confirmed town, I expected to get the tools I needed to do the mechanics work to put away the rest of the game. Even if my reads are shit, if there's a mechanical way to box out scum, I find it.

I was trying to trust you and give you as much leeway as I could, but from my POV it sounded like you were pushing a plan based on a misreading of my alignment that would cost us the game if Klingon was scum, or even maybe if Lowell or someone we thought was confirmed was scum. If you had a plan to deal with that contingency, you didn't explain it to me.

I kept trying to accommodate everyone's wishes at the end of the game (why I changed to triple lynch and not just impale ABR). I felt like I got totally railroaded. The only person I felt was working with me was Mollie and to a minor extent yourself. Mollie I had the luxury (or in her shoes probably annoyance) of explaining why I want things the way I do ten times over.

It's funny, I felt like at the end of the game everyone but me and you just basically stopped playing to wait and see if you could solve the game. I just wasn't willing to sit back and risk that, since if ABR was telling the truth about Sensei dying if he impaled ABR (and he was) or if Kling was scum, things could have gone really badly.

Abr would have been lynched before Sensei died. I checked with Varsoon on that. I never would have risked Sensei over my scumread of ABR.

I do felt like you put the effort into work with me very much so more than anyone else but Mollie during the last game day of the game now that I see how working together is supposed to work. I am glad you put up with me. I don't really feel certain others worked with me at all, but I need space to reflect on ABR and Sensei.

[wgeurts]

Does anybody have any comments on how I could improve?
What are your thoughts on my play?
I've currently been trying out different things trying to improve and feedback is always the best way of knowing how I can proceed.

[Shiro]

You can try losing next time so town can win. I mean do you really justify a single persons feelings of accomplishment over a whole town? Pretty selfish on your part don't ya think?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Hahahah.

[Drixx]

Titus ... do I need to quote my PM to Varsoon another time so you realize I made my decision about Zulfy from a logical thoughtful position and not "lashed out" in an emotional play?

[Yosarian2]

Abr would have been lynched before Sensei died. I checked with Varsoon on that. I never would have risked Sensei over my scumread of ABR.

Yeah, but if ABR and Sensei were both town and both died, we would have been in a much worse shape. Especially if after that happened you then went on to try to lynch me, which is what I was expecting to happen in that situation, town could easily have lost.

When ABR said "I have an ability that will kill Sensei if he tries to impale me, if you want to kill me lynch me instead" it did seem dubious, but there was still a chance he was telling the truth, which is why I wanted to impale Klingon and lynch ABR instead of the other way around.

I do felt like you put the effort into work with me very much so more than anyone else but Mollie during the last game day of the game now that I see how working together is supposed to work. I am glad you put up with me. I don't really feel certain others worked with me at all, but I need space to reflect on ABR and Sensei.

Heh. It's all good. Thanks for taking my concerns seriously on the last day; because you were literally mod-confirmed town, if you had really wanted to just push your plan through and ignore everyone else, you probably could have, and that might have given the scum the win.

[Yosarian2]

The game is over and I'm still messing up quote tags, lol.

Abr would have been lynched before Sensei died. I checked with Varsoon on that. I never would have risked Sensei over my scumread of ABR.

Yeah, but if ABR and Sensei were both town and both died, we would have been in a much worse shape. Especially if after that happened you then went on to try to lynch me, which is what I was expecting to happen in that situation, town could easily have lost.

When ABR said "I have an ability that will kill Sensei if he tries to impale me, if you want to kill me lynch me instead" it did seem dubious, but there was still a chance he was telling the truth, which is why I wanted to impale Klingon and lynch ABR instead of the other way around.

I do felt like you put the effort into work with me very much so more than anyone else but Mollie during the last game day of the game now that I see how working together is supposed to work. I am glad you put up with me. I don't really feel certain others worked with me at all, but I need space to reflect on ABR and Sensei.

Heh. It's all good. Thanks for taking my concerns seriously on the last day; because you were literally mod-confirmed town, if you had really wanted to just push your plan through and ignore everyone else, you probably could have, and that might have given the scum the win.[/quote]

[Yosarian2]

When people would keep on attempting to lynch my townreads, I would feel that I was ignored and thus try to persuade people to not lynch my townread regardless of Gamestate. As town, Gamestate was secondary to protecting town. If town all recognized each other, then the Gamestate issues could be overcome. That's totally the wrong way to do things to most of you. Most of you (at least I think this is accurate) value the environment over getting the desired lynch. That is so foreign to me, but I will work on that.

In my opinion, if you're really sure someone is town, it's fine to stick your neck waaaay out in order to stop them from being lynched. I did so several times this game; I took a huge risk in order to stop ABR from being lynched going as far as begging people to stop voting him, and I did the same thing when the whole town wanted to lynch Sky.

Just understand that when you do that, you are taking a huge risk. If you do that and you're wrong, you will probably get lynched for it (unless you're really, really skilled at looking town). Even if you do that and you're right, seeing someone do that and defend someone you're sure is scum is going to flip some people into super-paranoid mode about you, which can be a pain (and that happened in this game as well.)

Sometimes the risk is worth it. If you're a townie, seeing the town lynch correctly is more important then self preservation. But you shouldn't do it too often.

Second major thing is importance of the social Gamestate as much as the mechanical gamestate. I am very weak here on this. I do consider VCA to be mechanical Gamestate for this section. I do not understand town herd mentality. I do not get people on that level.

In my experience, towns win a lot if several strong, town players all recognize each other as probable town early and then work together as a pack to find and lynch the scum. That was basically what happened early on this game, with me, ABR, you guys (especially Mollie on day 1), Sensei, and R&L. Even with the tension between Mollie and ABR, we were mostly able to work together as a pack to find and lynch the scum.

You can't take it too far, and there are risks in doing that, but conversely you have to suppress the natural instinct to feel too paranoid about the people you were earlier town-reading for as long as you can in order to pull that off.

On the other hand, the worst case scenario as far as social game-state goes is when town players A, B, and C all work together, while town players D, E, and F work together in a different "clique", and the two cliques suspect each other. At that point it becomes easy for scum to infiltrate one or both of the town "cliques", or to just play them off against each other to get mislynches. Also the game often gets really nasty and bitter when that happens,

The other risk is that you have to avoid letting someone in to your "trusted group" just because you really like them. Both me and ABR made that mistake this game in terms of DGB; she is an amazing, unconventional town player and we both really *wanted* her to be town, so we basically just assumed she was.

But, yeah; social gamestate is really important, and can make the difference between a win and a loss.

If I am ankle biting you, just tell me that you've heard my reasons but this is a process you must go through. I will need that acknowledgment that I have been heard.

I think I actually said something very similar to that to you when I was going after Klingon on day 1, let me find it:

Until I have a better read on her, I will not and can not let this go. Other people badgering me to unvote her will just makes me dig my heels in more.

Klingon got herself into trouble here, and she has to get herself out of it. You can't help her do that. I get why you want to, and it makes you look more town, but it doesn't work that way. I need to get something from her i can read before i can unvote her. Otherwise we're going to be stuck in this loop for the rest of the game.

[Titus]

@Yoyo, I was a bit clueless to your intent there. All I could see was ABR's anti-town play. I could not see how anyone townread ABR for anything but he's that way as town and much less active as scum.

I agree with your post 100%.

[Klingoncelt]

She could have hammerred with BIT. Her main vote would have been barred.

I knew that, but it would have been my swan song.

I hammer someone, anyone, and everyone's gonna know I'm Scum. Sure, Day 6 ends right then, and I NK TCC, but at the start of Day 7 I'm lynched as fast as players can hit that vote button.

[Klingoncelt]

You'll be missed, Diamond.

Yeah. Basic Training for the Air Force Academy is June 30 through August, and school starts in September. So I won't be able to play July-August, but I might be able to after that.

Yeah, I think while you're in school you have most evenings free.

Good luck!

[Cerberus v666]

She could have hammerred with BIT. Her main vote would have been barred.

I knew that, but it would have been my swan song.

I hammer someone, anyone, and everyone's gonna know I'm Scum. Sure, Day 6 ends right then, and I NK TCC, but at the start of Day 7 I'm lynched as fast as players can hit that vote button.

Yeah, but unfortunately it comes down to availability at that point. Although Varsoon DID say he would allow players to preemptively setup when a ability controlled vote would occur. So, you could hvae told him in the night that you want your BIT vote to be on x(ABR, and you would have NK'd Sensei, after hammering me), as soon as the day starts...for the last day at least. You would however have to be around to just hammer at the start of the next day, while voting yourself for MC.

I actually think if you had hammered me, and NK'd Sensei, and expressed that your plan was to do what I just said above, Varsoon would have just given the win to you, since town had effectively lost, and you had complete control of the lynches/nothing would have been able to stop you from arriving at a you VS DP endgame which you would automatically win(Plus you would have been MC all the days afterwards, so you couldn't have been lynched)

[Klingoncelt]

She could have hammerred with BIT. Her main vote would have been barred.

I knew that, but it would have been my swan song.

I hammer someone, anyone, and everyone's gonna know I'm Scum. Sure, Day 6 ends right then, and I NK TCC, but at the start of Day 7 I'm lynched as fast as players can hit that vote button.

Yeah, but unfortunately it comes down to availability at that point. Although Varsoon DID say he would allow players to preemptively setup when a ability controlled vote would occur. So, you could hvae told him in the night that you want your BIT vote to be on x(ABR, and you would have NK'd Sensei, after hammering me), as soon as the day starts...for the last day at least. You would however have to be around to just hammer at the start of the next day, while voting yourself for MC.

I actually think if you had hammered me, and NK'd Sensei, and expressed that your plan was to do what I just said above, Varsoon would have just given the win to you, since town had effectively lost, and you had complete control of the lynches/nothing would have been able to stop you from arriving at a you VS DP endgame which you would automatically win(Plus you would have been MC all the days afterwards, so you couldn't have been lynched)

I wish I hadn't eaten that Benadryl on Night 5, it screwed up my thinking.

[Klingoncelt]

You guys were boring on your adventures, btw.

lol

[Klingoncelt]

By you guys I mean everyone that didn't Adventure on Nights 4 & 5.

[Cerberus v666]

No worries. I screwed up by not realizing you alone could control 3 votes at the start of the next day. I mean, I had to kill flum as part of my win con (though maybe not, because he didn't currently have access to any of his killing powers), so optimal play for me, if I didn't have to kill flum, would have been to realize that and nk you, and just risk that if you were town, I could argue that we couldn't afford to have someone controlling 3 votes with the fire going around. Since I didn't realize that, your move with subtly getting them to allow the kills to happen that night was a masterstroke that should have won you the game.

Basically, a lot had to go right for me, INCLUDING me misplaying if I didn't need to kill flum, in order for me to win. Super lucky.

[hiplop]

I played the whole game with that guilt beating me from inside. I just could have replaced out and you could play your game, but I talked with shiro about it like a stupid fascinated childish girl and then it was like to end the game for me and shiro or end it for you guys.

I asked Varsoon to do what he thinks is best.

I just couldn't do that anyone

Not your fault even a little bit.

Varsy and I were joking a bit about you being forced replaced but I wouldn't have ever accepted it because the fact that it was a modkilling situation meant you were town lol

[hiplop]

<3 u fa lol. Don't be upset

I feel bad for spiffeh =[

AND WE HAD THE COOLEST ROLE EVER CERB. =[ WOULD HAVE BEEN GOODTOWN

[Cerberus v666]

<3 u fa lol. Don't be upset

I feel bad for spiffeh =[

AND WE HAD THE COOLEST ROLE EVER CERB. =[ WOULD HAVE BEEN GOODTOWN

I know right! YOU WERE

THE

SUPERHERO!! It was like...just be obvtown, and you get to be fucking overpowered. That's all.

[Errantparabola]

I have no idea what happened this game
BUT it looks like my reads were okay so there's that
shrug

[Cerberus v666]

I have no idea what happened this game
BUT it looks like my reads were okay so there's that
shrug

That's what matters. Although from my reading of the scum pt killing you was more of a paranoia move because they has to use the roleblock over the strongman, and all those best targets they expected to see protected.

I've just read through the D2 adventure PT, and it seems my suspicion that I was on the verge of getting wagoned on D2 was totally correct....I did notice one thing that I wanted to mention to mollie though.

I really do think my play in FF VII. Was bad. Hiplop has played with me before, so he knows I'm at lest capable of putting together the pieces if I had ever reread the game, to question why/how you two had such drastic changes in attitude towards one another, if I had ever got around to actually doing such a reread. I assume that's why he was concerned, NOT because I was actually being an effective player at that point.

[Klingoncelt]

I have no idea what happened this game
BUT it looks like my reads were okay so there's that
shrug

Yep, you were making too much sense with that post restriction. We couldn't give you a chance to speak out loud, you were well on your way to picking out the scumteam.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, klingon. I realized I was wrong. You quickhammering at day start wouldn't have worked. You needed to lynch ABR or sensei (but ABR is better) AFTER he blocked us, without voting for a MC...and vote yourself for MC at the same time. Then shoot sensei in the night, quickhammer us, shoot yosarian the next night, gg in the morning.

But it doesnt work if abr doesn't block us....and there was no way to remove sensei while ABR was around. And shooting abr would have killed you.

So yeah. It wasn't nearly as simple as I made it sound earlier, and there was a very narrow window for you to pull it off.

[Klingoncelt]

Oh, klingon. I realized I was wrong. You quickhammering at day start wouldn't have worked. You needed to lynch ABR or sensei (but ABR is better) AFTER he blocked us, without voting for a MC...and vote yourself for MC at the same time. Then shoot sensei in the night, quickhammer us, shoot yosarian the next night, gg in the morning.

But it doesnt work if abr doesn't block us....and there was no way to remove sensei while ABR was around. And shooting abr would have killed you.

So yeah. It wasn't nearly as simple as I made it sound earlier, and there was a very narrow window for you to pull it off.

I agree.

If I would have had the presence of mind to vote off Sensei, ABR would likely have blocked me, so I'd have to vote him off Day 7, and you & I would've killed/treestumped each other Night 7.

I was hoping that just calmly accepting the Impale would make everyone think I was Town and they'd change their minds and Impale someone else.