Open 629: C9++ (Game over!)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Hi Nahdia
KainTepes should always be lynched D1
VOTE: KainTepes

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Here are my reads:

{}
{}
{}
{}
{Ranger}

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Just gm checking in here. Hello, numerous people I know! I enjoy you all.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

We are an hydra:

• BlueTrin
  
• Goodmorning
  
• Shrike

BlueTrin posting now Hi Masquerade

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Yes Blue I am 300% ok with this policy lynch pls and ty.

~gm

(don't expect me to remember to sign posts most of the time tho)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Not wtoc, wotc.
Word of the crowd.

1. It's actually "Wisdom of the Crowds".
2. It's probably a bit late for that now.

@GoodNight: Early thoughts on people other than Kain?

I'm in the process of trying to establish some. This head just got out of a really gnarly game, so give it a bit.

Thoughts I do have:
-Ranger I want to think is Town, the teasing really reminds me of something I do as both alignments in Newbie games but it's a lot more open than that and feels right.
-Masquerade is giving me some vaguely newbTownish vibes.
-I feel like I should have a read on Creature but I don't.
-You're asking the right questions and look pretty Town but I have this weird feeling something's wrong with your tone. I definitely need to go back and remind myself what you sounded like last time we played though.
-Kop feels a little underwhelming but we'll see where that goes.

~gm

[GoodNightMsGreen]

When was the last time you played with him?

It was about a year ago. But tone doesn't change much.

@GNMG: What exactly strikes you as newbie from me?

Your perspective on the game.
It's not meant poorly; we were all new once, and Newbs can be and are just as good as anyone else.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

@GNMG: What exactly strikes you as newbie from me?

Your perspective on the game.
It's not meant poorly; we were all new once, and Newbs can be and are just as good as anyone else.

I'm not new, but I don't consider myself a superawesome mafiaplayer either. So I'm curious what perspective you mean, I want to get better so I can actually be a superawesome mafiaplayer.

Just most of the things that Nahdia (I think?) was reading as tryharding.
You've been looking at the game like the shine hasn't worn off.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

{GoodNightMsGreen, TheSoldier}
{Nahdia}
{acryon}
{Reubus Swagrid, Willowmeadow}
{Kop, zefiend, KainTepes, Masquerade}
{Klingoncelt}
{Creature}

Top three are solidly town, bottom two are solidly scum. We might actually have lucked out and gotten a two-scum setup.

I dunno about Creature, but I'm about as Town as it gets.

Explain yourself, Ranger.

Klingon you are not even trying

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I want to know the reasonings so I can work with them.

There are eleven other players to work with though.

Still, I don't feel it's enough. I have some opinions, but they're not very accurate.

I have a weird feeling on Kop, all his posts are questions, some might be scum hunting, others might be an aim for town cred.
TheSoldier has been mostly asking questions the entire game, but I don't see them as an attempt to get town cred.
I am not really sure on Nahdia, some of her posts seem to be aiming to please some of us.
KainTepes going silent very sudden is strange however.
I have no opinion on Masquere, although, some of his posts seemed town-intended, some not.

p-edit: I'll point what I feel about GoodNightMsGreen on my next post.

Get a little more wishywashy, why don't you? Classic newbScum, Creature, I don't like it.

Spoiler: response to Creature's case (?) on us (though Blue may have more to say here later, idk)

Hi Nahdia
KainTepes should always be lynched D1
VOTE: KainTepes

I know it's RVS, but wanting to policy lynch?

Here are my reads:

{}
{}
{}
{}
{Ranger}

Apparently not satisfied with Ranger's reads.

Yes Blue I am 300% ok with this policy lynch pls and ty.

~gm

(don't expect me to remember to sign posts most of the time tho)

Now it seems like they want to policy lynch.

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

What? You'll now completely ignore KainTepes? This looks like a big trace of buddying.

@GoodNight: Early thoughts on people other than Kain?

I'm in the process of trying to establish some. This head just got out of a really gnarly game, so give it a bit.

Thoughts I do have:
-Ranger I want to think is Town, the teasing really reminds me of something I do as both alignments in Newbie games but it's a lot more open than that and feels right.
-Masquerade is giving me some vaguely newbTownish vibes.
-I feel like I should have a read on Creature but I don't.
-You're asking the right questions and look pretty Town but I have this weird feeling something's wrong with your tone. I definitely need to go back and remind myself what you sounded like last time we played though.
-Kop feels a little underwhelming but we'll see where that goes.

~gm

- Oh look who town reads based on their previous plays.
- No comment.
- Why not? You should have an idea on me.
- Shouldn't you be pushing then?
- No comment.

When was the last time you played with him?

It was about a year ago. But tone doesn't change much.

@GNMG: What exactly strikes you as newbie from me?

Your perspective on the game.
It's not meant poorly; we were all new once, and Newbs can be and are just as good as anyone else.

An attempt to please a noob.

{GoodNightMsGreen, TheSoldier}
{Nahdia}
{acryon}
{Reubus Swagrid, Willowmeadow}
{Kop, zefiend, KainTepes, Masquerade}
{Klingoncelt}
{Creature}

Top three are solidly town, bottom two are solidly scum. We might actually have lucked out and gotten a two-scum setup.

I dunno about Creature, but I'm about as Town as it gets.

Explain yourself, Ranger.

Klingon you are not even trying

Okay, this post feels weird.

1. That's one of Blue's, but I think it was intended as an RV and only an RV.
2. That's a joke any way you look at it.
3. I

am

serious about potentially policy lynching Kain, whether Blue is or not.
4. I think what Blue meant was that Kain is unlikely to post anything alignment-indicative. You'd have to ask him though, since all I can tell you is that I'm definitely ignoring Kain.
5.
a. I don't understand.
b. Even though you disagree?
c. I think you'll find that I said I thought I should. At the time, you hadn't posted anything indicative, though.
d. Why would I push someone who looks Town?
e. OK.
6. Or, possibly, an answer to a question. (This relates to the story of my username but I don't really want to bore anyone with the reasons I try to be nice to people.)
7. Creature you are not even trying either. I honestly expected better from you.

I agree on GoodNightMsGreen, especially seeing them all together.

It's interesting that you say you agree with Creature about our alignment when Creature never actually stated a point about our alignment.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

It's interesting that you say you agree with Creature about our alignment when Creature never actually stated a point about our alignment.

His thoughts on your alignment seemed clear.

Weird that he wasn't willing to go whole hog, call us Scum or vote us, right?

Did you read the spoiler or did I answer that post for no real reason? It's not as if it was an intellectual exercise.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

The naked vote on Willow in 70 gels with "someone who doesn't just throw their vote around"?

OK.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

You think we were still in RVS at the end of p3?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Or he just said he was because he forgot why he was going to say he voted her.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

He wasn't on my radar at the time.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

And also I'm pretty sure someone else had already asked him about it.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Creature, you don't have to ask GM to get me to explain.

1. It was a RV and KainTepes has a bit of reputation due to his posting style.
2. Did you take this seriously ? you must feel a bit desperate.
3. His posting style is detrimental to the game and town, his lynch is similar in my opinion to lynching a lurker
4. So you accuse me of wanting to policy lynch KT and not giving him enough importance ?

Creature, please give us an exhaustive read on KainTepes, your accusations need to be backed by solid facts : please show us how you are not ignoring KainTepes by giving your reads on him.

~Blue

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Creature, please give us an exhaustive read on KainTepes, your accusations need to be backed by solid facts : please show us how you are not ignoring KainTepes by giving your reads on him.

~Blue

Blue you are the best, 100%, no lie nor exaggeration.

Get a little more wishywashy, why don't you? Classic newbScum, Creature, I don't like it.

When you say something like that I always get a bad feeling.

tbh I'd like to know what wishywashy means.

It means you're a flipflopper, that you won't take a stance. In your readspost you waffled on 3/5 and didn't actually commit to a read on the other 2.

Spoiler:

1. That's one of Blue's, but I think it was intended as an RV and only an RV.
2. That's a joke any way you look at it.
3. I

am

serious about potentially policy lynching Kain, whether Blue is or not.
4. I think what Blue meant was that Kain is unlikely to post anything alignment-indicative. You'd have to ask him though, since all I can tell you is that I'm definitely ignoring Kain.
5.
a. I don't understand.
b. Even though you disagree?
c. I think you'll find that I said I thought I should. At the time, you hadn't posted anything indicative, though.
d. Why would I push someone who looks Town?
e. OK.
6. Or, possibly, an answer to a question. (This relates to the story of my username but I don't really want to bore anyone with the reasons I try to be nice to people.)
7. Creature you are not even trying either. I honestly expected better from you.

1. Then have him explain.
2. If you say
3. Then tell us why his lynch will be benefitial?
4. Still, not a reason to ignore him.
5.
a. "the teasing really reminds me of something I do as both alignments in Newbie games" So do you consider Ranger town for that?
b. Disagree on what?
c. Thought you were bothered on solving Ranger's "confident" reads.
d. You say you have a bad feeling on his tone.
6. Whatever.
7. This is why I have a bad feeling about this post. You just say "you are not even trying" out of nowhere.

1. We're not always around at the exact same time, you know.
2. I do say so.
3. Have you looked at his posts? He looks to me like he's being deliberately bad. That is a "playstyle" we should discourage.
4. Someone who's not going to post anything either alignment-indicative or at least thought-provoking is a distraction and can and should be ignored.
5.
a. No, I'm townreading Ranger for "but it's a lot more Open than that and feels right."
b. Disagree on my Masquerade read.
c. I don't see what Ranger's reads have to do with my read of you.
d. Yes, but I also say it's been a long time since we played and I don't remember how he should sound. Some people just don't mesh on a playstyle level.
6. Whatever? That may have been your best point, and you just let it go?
7. You're not even trying to {scumhunt/make a good case on us/do anything other than try to distract people from wagoning you}. Klingon's not even trying to look Town, she's just telling us she does.

Klingon saying she's super town when she has no posts of substance reads like fake town bluster. How can anyone be confused that they're scumread when all of their posts are fluff?

Creature's case on GoodNight is weak. The PL point acts like wanting a policy lynch is a scumtell (it isn't). I'm not even sure what he means by "buddying" in 139. The rest is fluff put there to make the case seem more substantial. It's as if he started with a desire to scumread GoodNight and went through their posts looking for stuff to make them look bad - a manufactured read, in other words.

This analysis is much better than mine. (omg watch out i might start buddying you)

The case is bad to the point that I don't like Acryon buying into it so easily.

And this was very nearly my exact thought.

I already stated KainTepes' behavior seems different. If you want explanation, it's because his town self makes push votes even out of RVS, not the case here. I found it weird GoodNight first came wanting to just policy lynch KainTepes, but then wanting to completely ignore him.

You are aware that there are several of us, right? It is extremely unlikely that we're going to have the exact same thoughts on the same players at the same times - we have different experience with them and with Mafia in general, different playstyles, different theory, different approaches.

For more on this effect, but in a non-hydra context that may be easier to understand, check the Mason QT from NY169. (post 7251 in the game will give some context.)

NY169 also has some good examples of when hydra dissonance becomes without-a-doubt scummy (Casso) and what Town hydrae should look like (geists, possibly KBBQ).

[GoodNightMsGreen]

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

You had problems with 78 but not 137?

Seriously?

You were definitely not this terrible in NY180.

Or he just said he was because he forgot why he was going to say he voted her.

If he forgot why he voted for her

, then he could clearly state that, since he didn't give a reason.

That's not what I said, at all.

He wasn't on my radar at the time.

He doesn't need to be on your radar for you to take a issue with it though, surely? Your reading the thread, you don't just think 'I'll not ask anything or talk about that post, he's not on my radar".

"And I'm pretty sure someone had already asked him about it."

What is there to talk about? "Oh, it's a naked vote, I can definitely do shitloads of analysis on it!"

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VOTE: Willowmeadow

PEdit: Why Creature

Creature, there's a question for you in 71

Our next post was 78.

Just for reference, since nobody seems able to actually read the game.

p-edit:

w h a t

Now I'm going to have to analyse this, aren't I? Stop making yourself look worse.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

In post 78, I take the following stances:

Ranger is Town. Masquerade is Town. Soldier is Town, probably, but I need to check tone on that before I fully commit.

I make the following implications:

Creature could be Scum because I don't have a read on him at a point when I should have a read on him. Kop could be Scum for being underwhelming, but he could just be busy, so I'll reserve judgement.

In post 137, Creature takes the following stances:

Masquerade is either Town or Scum.

He makes the following implications:

(and I'm being really generous with a couple of these)
Kop might be scumhunting Town or he might be towncred-hunting Scum. Soldier doesn't seem to be hunting for towncred so may be Town. Nahdia could maybe possibly be buddying some of us which may mean she's Scum. Kain went suddenly quiet, so maybe Scum.


And I'll note here that 78 is at the top of p4 while 137 is in late-middle p6, which means Creature had 2.5 more pages of info to use yet still did less.

I'll say it again, stop making yourself look worse.

p-edit: oh you poor thing

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Creature's "reads" make no harsh claims whatsoever,

that's my entire point

.

The point of a readslist isn't usually "reactions."

--
Also, come to notice, I can actually answer your following concern better with your own words:

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

Is this what you think? You didn't seem to have an issue with it at the time.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

(interestingly the people who reacted to my readslist were the people who were actually on it, rather than random bystanders who are trying too hard to prop me up)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I do.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I do.

For what purpose?

Surely that's pretty evident?

Or he just said he was because he forgot why he was going to say he voted her.

I might have misinterpreted this, but I'm reading this like you said he said that, or at least was going to say that. My apologies if I have confused both your statement and mine.

It looks to me like a vote he was meant to say was a pressure vote, but forgot that's what he meant to say.

I don't think that either RVS or pressure are the reason he actually voted Willow, though.

(Just one thing msgreen, I'm an alt, certainly not a newb)

Then I can only congratulate you on maintaining a positive outlook for however long, and reconsider my read of you in that context.

(I'd still bank on your main being short of your first scumday.)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

(It's funny you think that)

(then you're amazing)

I do.

For what purpose?

Surely that's pretty evident?

I would expect a vote if you're implying what I think you are. Put your money where your mouth is.

Didn't Soldier put him at L-2? I'm not putting anyone at L-1 with someone like Kain in the game.

The acryon-GoodNightMsGreen fight is boring.

It was fun for a while.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VCA is terrible and that vote is terrible.

This head is V/LA til Saturday.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Also

Vote: Creature

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Anyway a case for Creature town would really help him out if you could put it to his voters ɀefiend

Burden of proof is on the accuser, especially day 1, where it is very hard to see who is town because there is less information/time available for scumhunting to work with.

And this is true but it's not like making a towncase is impossible. If he feels that strongly that Creature is Town I'd like to see him explain why.



And ftr zefiend, I did a very small sample of wagon momentum and found that wagons on Scum actually go faster on average in terms of both time and posts, so that's not a good reason to townread anyone.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

Anyway a case for Creature town would really help him out if you could put it to his voters ɀefiend

Burden of proof is on the accuser, especially day 1, where it is very hard to see who is town because there is less information/time available for scumhunting to work with.

As you said proof of burden should be on the accuser.

Hi Nahdia
KainTepes should always be lynched D1
VOTE: KainTepes

I know it's RVS, but wanting to policy lynch?

It should be obvious why one would want KainTepes to be policy lynched from his posting style. For some reason, Creature can't see it.

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

What? You'll now completely ignore KainTepes? This looks like a big trace of buddying.

Now in the same post you accuse me of buddying him ??? WTF Creature, get a grip and stop fighting yourself !

Immediately followed by:

I agree on GoodNightMsGreen, especially seeing them all together.

VOTE: GoodNightMsGreen

Acryon's ISO seems to be almost dedicated to defending Creature.

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

This could as well apply to Creature points ?

This was the post where I told Kop to ignore KainTepes:

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

It was in reply to these series of posts:

Spoiler: This is what caused Creature's ire

CREATURE why are you getting so AGITATED?

CREATURE why are you getting so AGITATED?

Define agitated.

!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

see, agitated

VOTE: Creature

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

So basically Kop asked what was the point of KainTepes posts.
And I replied that he is always posting like this, so ignore a bit of the spam, I even added that he tried to win in his own manner, so you could try to read his reactions instead of reading literally his posts (I know I can't read anything from KainTepes except trying to see who he is ready to hammer and who he isn't)

So maybe you can talk to your buddy Creature and put some of the accusation burden on him ? Because at the moment, you are obviously the most obvious buddies here in this game. You put all the burden on us and accept all of his feeble arguments like truth. One sided very much ? I believe so.

~BlueTrin
(apologies for posting from the wrong account)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Hi Nahdia
KainTepes should always be lynched D1
VOTE: KainTepes

I know it's RVS, but wanting to policy lynch?

It should be obvious why one would want KainTepes to be policy lynched from his posting style. For some reason, Creature can't see it.

I don't think Creature can't see it; he just appears to principally disagree with policy lynches, as do I.

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

What? You'll now completely ignore KainTepes? This looks like a big trace of buddying.

Now in the same post you accuse me of buddying him ??? WTF Creature, get a grip and stop fighting yourself !

This seems like a clear example of stream of consciousness posting hence the "now" from him in the second post. It indicates there is a state being changed.

Acryon's ISO seems to be almost dedicated to defending Creature.

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

This could as well apply to Creature points ?

Really? You were trying to push a

data-based

point and I simply called you out for not having the data to push it. That's very different than simply trying to perpetuate a story based on anecdotes. Data-based claims are easily challenged and dismissed, anecdotal ones are not.

And to be clear, I don't actually feel one way or the other about Creature, but I attack bad wagons; it's what I do. I also try to look at these bad wagons and put some pressure on people strongly in favor of them, since at worst it helps us improve as a town and at best helps us out scum. I think what I've done has brought far more out than the initial push on Creature, which is great especially when information is so lacking, but you can thank me later for that.

I think you didn't read my post because I signed ~BlueTrin. I will let GM reply about her own data. I am not sure whether to thank you, because Creature is still evading the points of my posts above, maybe you want to oblige him ... you know ... so you can show that you are actually impartial and not buddy with him ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I think you didn't read my post because I signed ~BlueTrin. I will let GM reply about her own data. I am not sure whether to thank you, because Creature is still evading the points of my posts above, maybe you want to oblige him ... you know ... so you can show that you are actually impartial and not buddy with him ?

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but I'm not going to treat you like two players when you signed up as one. I'm going to treat you like the one slot you are and you two can figure out how to navigate that.

Is the point to simply get reactions out of Creature? Or out of everyone?

Nice way to evade the question, so I will take it you accept the fact that you will leave this point unanswered: in the same post he accuses me of wanting to policy lynch KainTepes and wanting to buddy him at the same time.

Right after this, you vote me and defend Creature.

It's fine by me if you are one sided and only question me/us rather than getting points on both sides.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Im not sure if Ive given this speel yet to you, but Im not here to be your friend. I know the rules and Im within my rights to antagonize you.

Lovely !

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I don't like Pisskop tone but he is getting the discussion going and he is quite inquisitive so I read this as town for now.

Masquerade is avoiding posting other things than agreeing with posts here for now. Not necessarily scum, but anti-town.

I've decided to not talk unless I'm spoken to.

(prodge)

Ok heard back from mod. Will participate awaiting further word.

Give me a moment to get back into this. Will isoread and post reads later tonight.

I think Nahdia and Klingon both make good points. I agree very much with Nahdia that meta'ing someone when only one alignment is available isn't worth that much. There is nothing to compare with, at least not that we're allowed to talk about. However, I can understand someone could genuinely believe they caught scum based on only one aligment games like Klingon did. Or maybe Klingon exxaggerated to see how Nahdia responds (although that's not really what I'm seeing here so far) I know Klingon will scumslip if she's scum and right now I think Nahdia is more defensive than sne needs to be.

Now to everyone that has been scumreading me from before I said I wouldn't talk anymore (those after are lurk-reading me and lurking is not alignment indicative) please share with me why you think Im scum so I can properly defend against that if I hadn't done so already.

VOTE: Acryon
I will elaborate tonight when I do my readslist.

I want your reads, with explanations, on all the players.

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

You and klingy are always at each others throat, and my meta on klingy is a little stale.

I am not. But to answer why: I recognize Klingoncelt usually votes players she does not know, but the

way

she voted in 9 felt like it was an overjustification. It's also a lie to say she always does. (Not to mention, in 167, she says she doesn't know most of the players, so why did her wording imply GoodNightMsGreen was the only one she didn't know?) 76 felt fake. In 111, she also doesn't give any commentary on any of the other players on my list. She's not scumhunting at this point, when she should be if she's town. 112 is avoiding taking a firm stance on Creature. In 113, she sheeps the easy-to-follow opinion stated by Nahdia, when with her previous experience with me, she should know I do this every game. (See also: why I'm so ticked off at you. Except you're town, whereas she's not.) Her lack of content was pointed out by Willowmeadow (one of the reasons I townread Willow in the first place, actually), but her excuse in 165 was "I don't play strong early-on". This does not match my experience with Klingoncelt. Maybe her reads aren't accurate, but bluntly they're rarely above average, neither better nor worse than any run-of-the-mill player. Yet she has always gotten them all the same, even D1. So, she

should

be obviously town, but isn't.

Her reasoning for her play having shifted doesn't work for me, either. I fully believe she's a different player now that she's recovered from the trauma...but the things sticking out like a sore thumb have nothing to do with anything I can see having been attributed to trauma in the first place. I can see things such as, say, a lack of emotional outburst as being relevant meta shifts from this. But my problems with her come from things that should be identical: no obvtowning, no strong reads, nothing.

271 fits with past experience of Klingoncelt's scumgame as how she gives reads. And, for people who keep criticizing

me

for a lack of reasons, they seem to conveniently have forgotten Klingoncelt also did this. The difference is: I always give no reasons. Klingoncelt gives reasons as town but often doesn't when scum.

Then, we enter into the Nahdia debate, where, again, Nahdia is completely correct: Klingoncelt is lying about her, and every attempt to justify the lie is simply restating the same (wrong) fact over and over again, in different wording, whereas Nahdia continues to build up the case against her using new points and new angles, which Klingoncelt continues to brush off with the same exact defense.

That's a lot of good points, Klingon will probably just brush off all of this and pisskop will accuse Ranger of something random ?

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Quotewall are ok if you use the spoiler tags in the quotes themselves but in this case I think SS is just cherry picking and stretching arguments to avoid being lynched.

It feels like a random collection of quotes where you wanted from the start to look scummy and found random arguments to match your conclusion.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Quotewall are ok if you use the spoiler tags in the quotes themselves but in this case I think SS is just cherry picking and stretching arguments to avoid being lynched.

It feels like a random collection of quotes where you wanted from the start to look scummy and found random arguments to match your conclusion.

You have it backwards. Actually, these arguments are the reason I'm scumreading Ranger, and these posts illustrate the scummiest things she's done. Show me quotes of Ranger that contradict my arguments or stop making baseless accusations.

Going to ISO GoodNight and Ranger and see if this makes any sense as a chainsaw.

There is no deseperation, only yours to post bad arguments.

Like you said, don't forget to go through my ISO to cherry pick whatever fits your schemes and discard the rest.

I cannot agree with bad argumentation, go back to the drawing board with a post which looks like more objective instead of looking like scum saving yourself by accusing the next slot with votes.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

You have yet to provide one shred of evidence for any of your accusations.
You say I'm cherry picking. Prove it. Quote posts of Ranger that contradict my claims.
You say I'm pushing a major wagon and therefore am desperate scum. While you are pushing me, the other major wagon (your partner's counterwagon).
Also you telling me to make a better case stinks of knowing my alignment, it's like you want more to fight over.

Or you could just go before the two quotes you cherry picked and find examples of why your slot (Creature) is reeking ? The is why I believe your behaviour is terribly scummy. You just picked whatever opportunity to not get lynched.

Obviously I cannot expect you explain why Creature liked to make so many bad points but you are not improving the slot quality here.

Here you go proof that you cherry pick. Waiting for you to bring good proof of your accusations ? Hey you know what ? That actually reminds me of your predecessor !

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Are you trying to convince me my own slot is scum? That's a classic scumtell. You get so caught up in the appearance of scumhunting you forget who you should be arguing to.

Would you like to actually answer my question and show me what posts of Ranger contradict my claims? Cherry picking is selecting pieces of evidence to support a misleading claim, so unless you can show why my claims are misleading, you're full of crap.

VOTE: GoodNightMsGreen this needs to go. We can lynch Ranger tomorrow when they flip scum.

You cherry picked my two last posts and assumed that I was systematically defending ranger. The truth is that you are trying to get votes away from you, you cherry picked the two posts not accusing your slot.
I
Also I don't have to convince you of anything, you know your slot and I believe it is scummy ?

You think I am trying to convince you of your slot ? It does not make any sense, get a grip.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I'm back!

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

And people shouldn't be buying into your narrative without the evidence to support that!

VCA is terrible and that vote is terrible.

VCA is actually very useful if it's done correctly.

I have only ever seen Titus get even a small amount of usefulness out of it.

Also I really wish you'd post more content.

Anyway a case for Creature town would really help him out if you could put it to his voters ɀefiend

Burden of proof is on the accuser, especially day 1, where it is very hard to see who is town because there is less information/time available for scumhunting to work with.

Regardless would it not help?

Of course but I'm saying it likely doesn't exist, since it's generally easier to paint a scum-case than a town-one.

I tend to find Town cases not very difficult, because when you're making a Town case on someone it's probably because you're pretty sure they're Town.

They do take more effort though.

oh wholly hell thats a complex setup.

Can't be as complex as NY180.

-- (similar vein) in response to acryon's vote on him, attacking acryon's repeated defense of Creature; deflecting questioning from acryon about his own 78 back to Creature's 137

I literally lined up 78 against 137. If that's "deflection" then own goals are desirable.

I know the rules and Im within my rights to antagonize you.

Hmm.

On to page 11.

Also, something was wrong with zefiend's case on Ranger but I can't quite put it into words so this is here to remind me to take another look later.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

*p12, actually.

im not really sure what i meant by that

I'm actually pretty OK with this.

Swagrid is looking like slightly lost Town on these pages.

I've decided to not talk unless I'm spoken to.

(prodge)

1. I don't see why your difficulties with pisskop preclude you from talking to everyone else.
2. This is probably Town. Scum would likely be more aggressive in this situation in hopes of starting a shitfight.

She made a logical leap that I don't believe a person with pure intentions would ever ever make.

I tend to find that the only people with truly pure intentions are the Scum.

But that's just me.

On the subject of meta: I had two ICTown Newbie games at once. imkingdavid was in both. Based on his tone, it became

incredibly obvious

that he was Scum in one and Town in the other. You can't use that knowledge openly, but you can't exactly forget about it either. It's an incredibly valuable tool, particularly when it's hot.

So the Scums are among Nahdia, Ranger, Masquerade, and Kain Tepes.

gg.

You forgot Creature, and at this point I kind of think Kain is just annoying?

The amount of certainty I have on Creature is more than I've had on anyone in a long time.

Fuck, there are 16 hours left???????

Willow's not really wrong about acryon, like 90% of his content these past few pages has been "you're not posting" and "you're not posting either" and 371 feels like he's trying too hard to be casual.

how do i know ALL THE PLAYERS,, i can give READS only on the SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!! the others i dont care, I JUST NEED TO FIND THE SCUMS

FUN FACT: if you read SOME PLAYERS as TOWN then that means there are LESS PLAYERS to look at to FIND THE SCUMS!!!!!!!!

[GoodNightMsGreen]

like, you're blatantly dodging my request because you can't meet it.

I didn't dodge anything, I link directly to those games.

Do you understand the concept of meta? With meta, one takes in the whole body of a player's work, not a handful of quotes. One absorbs the big picture to get an understanding of the player's style.

ugh tonal meta is SUPER HARD TO EXPLAIN

I feel all of your pain.

--
Masquerade is Town.

acryon keeps talking effort rather than actual indicative stuff, dull.

idk how I feel about Nahdia PR hunting/fishing ITT.

Pressure without clear expectation will cause even townies to crack and look scummy, which happens all the time. I would rather catch actual scum.

Pressure with clear expectation tells Scum what you expect Town to do.

NewbTown cracking under pressure usually looks VERY different from NewbScum cracking under pressure.

Isn't most peoples meta ever-changing? Are there many players on the site that play very consistently in certain roles? As I understand peoples metagame would be ever changing. I just find it hard to believe that meta reading is a reliable way to read someone.

Tonal meta mostly doesn't change.

--
shit, Ranger getting angry at pisskop looks SUPER TOWN

There is more you can do. If you are town and you think you've found scum, seems like your responsibility is to convince us that you've found it. You're not doing that.

It's really hard to make an actual case or sustain a push on someone who

isn't doing anything

.

Actually this is such a ridiculous thing to say that you might be Town after all.

But probably not.

--
lol @454 and 456. So Scum. I'm going to have stupid amounts of confidence when he scumflips.

Where did Kop come from? Has he been in this game the whole time??????

This still reads like Town-rage from Ranger. 492 especially.

+Nahdia is also Town.

Quotewall are ok if you use the spoiler tags in the quotes themselves but in this case I think SS is just cherry picking and stretching arguments to avoid being lynched.

It feels like a random collection of quotes where you wanted from the start to look scummy and found random arguments to match your conclusion.

Y E S

You took the words right out of my mouth.

LAST TWO PAGES COMING UP PLUS A READSLIST FROM THIS HEAD

[GoodNightMsGreen]

You have yet to provide one shred of evidence for any of your accusations.
You say I'm cherry picking. Prove it. Quote posts of Ranger that contradict my claims.

1. Your claims basically amount to "all of these playstyle things are bad and I think this anger looks fake!" Guess what, friend? Several people (me, Nahdia, Willow?, Klingon?) think that anger looks real.
2. The burden of proof lies with the accuser (that's you here). Blue is A. well within his rights to call you unconvincing, because you are and B. well within his rights to say it looks like Scum desperation to live, because it does.

Are you trying to convince me my own slot is scum? That's a classic scumtell.

Bless your heart, you poor thing.

we all claim to scumread masque.

I don't.

TOWN: Ranger, Swagrid, Masquerade, Kain?, Nahdia, Willow?, pisskop

IDK: Klingon, Kop

SCUM: SS, acryon, zefiend?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Could have saved one day if you listened to us

VOTE: Something Smart

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Wow SS is really trying hard for this one.

If pisskop claims he's gambitting I'm pulling for his lynch today because the only thing that gambit does is make it harder to lynch SS. Again. Fuck that so much.

p sure he's actually telling the truth though for several reasons.

p-edit: no he isn't

[GoodNightMsGreen]

pisskop has asked people not to lynch you yet. many people have seen this. pick a different topic, you're getting boring and that one's too safe anyway.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

l o l

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Acryon, you may disagree about the method, but it got creature and SS to talk.

Different people react differently, I don't think we would have gotten so much out of SS and Creature without us.

~BlueTrin

PS: we got a lot out of you as well

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Acryon, you may disagree about the method, but it got creature and SS to talk.

Different people react differently, I don't think we would have gotten so much out of SS and Creature without us.

~BlueTrin

PS: we got a lot out of you as well

Yes but what you did before was much different than what you did now. There are right and wrong ways to push people in my opinion. You have done the right way in the past, and this is the wrong way. This way would make me want to just flake out/ignore you as town.

Well, I can't speak for GM, but I do not read much more the posts from SS because, for me, it is quite obvious he is scum from his defensiveness and the way he is trying to save his skin by any means.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Well, I can't speak for GM, but I do not read much more the posts from SS because, for me, it is quite obvious he is scum from his defensiveness and the way he is trying to save his skin by any means.

And I get that, but I just wonder what the goal is? If S_S isn't talking today, who is?

Are you saying that because SS is the possibly the best lynch candidate, today will be a very quiet day as people won't be fighting ?

Mostly because he came close to a lynch yesterday ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I totally understand your point and I just want to say that this is just the situation we are in. We (the hydra) didn't contribute to this situation. It happened because we didn't vote him yesterday and because PK revealed at the beginning of the day.

At this point, there is nothing we can do, IMHO.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

1. Nahdia is super Town
2. SS being SK means my acryon read actually makes sense now. D1 acryon was whiteknighting the shit out of a slot he was pretty sure would be lynched and knew wouldn't flip Scum. Blue asked me overNight why acryon wouldn't think SS was SK. I said something like the following:

Some possible options:
1. He didn't think there was an SK/didn't remember it was possible.
2. He was pretty sure someone else was SK.
3. He just assumed I was being overzealous against a newbTown in over his head, which is a silly thing for him to assume because I usually bail out newbTown who are in over their heads in Opens, but I suppose he wouldn't necessarily know that. It can be hard for some people to tell the difference between uncomfortable newbTown and uncomfortable newbScum.

Our vote is there in spirit atm.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Btw, you guiz know I got a no result on SS, right?

Hmm.

p-edit: i mean, it's still a lie

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Ranger. You took a wrong turn somewhere.

Her analysis of the gamestate looks fine enough to me, allowing for the assumption pisskop is full Cop which I don't have any particular feelings about.

What problem do you have with it?

VOTE: Masquerade

1. It would be very helpful indeed if you'd explain yourself.
2. You're going to have a really long road of redemption in front of you before you manage to reach the playerlist of anything other than a Newbie game again. I advise you, if you actually want to play the game in the future, to

play the game NOW

.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I should note that the above is from gm.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I don't feel comfortable talking about the setup. All I know is there are 3 mafia, maybe a SK as well, and we need to lynch them. We already have 2 down, 2 more scum to go.

How do you "know there are 3 mafia"?

I've read the last few pages, and Acryon can't have slipped up that easy, surely?

what the heck is this

It's simple, I don't think such an experienced player like Acryon can slip up as easily as he appears too.

Does it not compute that this wagon has gained momentum quite quickly? and so easily?

I feel like I've already said in this game that momentum doesn't mean shit.

Look, sometimes Scum is obvious. Anyway acryon's not as experienced as some of the players in this game.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Didn't expect to come back to this... I think the speed of this wagon should be evidence enough that I'm town, but give me a minute and I'll address some of the nonsense that I'm sure was said about me.

Also I'm VT.

I feel like I've only said about 6 trillion times that it's not indicative. I actually spent an hour or so the other day working on the stats for it.

I feel like I've already said in this game that momentum doesn't mean shit.

That's pretty clearly false for anyone who has played any decent number of games.

The head who posted that was me, goodmorning! I've actually played ~135 games on mafiaScum, if you include this one.

I, for one, think that's a pretty decent number.

--
Guys please don't make me make an acryon case, he is super scummy and we all can see it.

I hate making cases

so much

.

Ugh I should go look at Ranger vs Zefiend again but pretty sure Ranger is town and it's weirding me out Acryon keeps scumreading her because I'd think scum would have changed his scumread sigh. Opinions anyone?

Scum change their minds more rarely than Town, on average, because we're hardwired to link consistency with only good things and because we actually tend to be more consistent when we lie.

Town do sometimes get stuck in tunnels or in confbias though.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Didn't expect to come back to this... I think the speed of this wagon should be evidence enough that I'm town, but give me a minute and I'll address some of the nonsense that I'm sure was said about me.

Also I'm VT.

I feel like I've only said about 6 trillion times that it's not indicative. I actually spent an hour or so the other day working on the stats for it.

Perhaps it's possible that you have had an exceptionally anomalous experience on MS, but it's generally accepted knowledge, as well as just logical that quicker wagons are more likely to contain scum.

Given that 135 games is a lot, no, I haven't had an exceptionally anomalous experience. It's far more likely that you're confbiased on this.

You know what used to be generally accepted knowledge? That the Earth was at the center of the universe. Your logical fallacy is?

As to whether it's more logical - you can make arguments both ways.

Now, to briefly discuss the analysis I've done so far:

Spoiler: why

There are two different types of analysis we can talk about here: how the number of Scum impacts a wagon on Town, or how the alignment of the wagonee affects the speed of the wagon.

I don't have enough data transposed to analyse the former in a statistically significant way.
I can, however, analyse the latter.

It took an average of 187.57 posts or 8.42 days to lynch Town, with data falling between 19 and 499 posts and .61 and 19.29 days.
It took an average of 166.23 posts or 8.05 days to lynch Scum, with data falling between 16 and 356 posts and 1.13 and 23.42 days.

That's 21.34 fewer posts and .37 less of a day it takes to lynch Scum in this particular set of games.

--
I am less and less a fan of Kop the more he posts.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Spoiler:

Enough to be statistically significant. These were all D1 lynches, no PR results. It's hard to measure wagons that don't make a lynch because sometimes they rise and fall before a mod posts a VC, and I don't hate myself enough to try.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

If you assume town-acryon, who do you think is scum?

I don't, because you're probably not, but other potential Scum include Willow and maybe Kop, as I think I've said before?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

What's up with the funny hammers from the people using this avatar ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

wtf why am i not 100% confirmed town anymore ive been demoted

You weren't demoted, the others just got promoted. They're 100% town, you're 98% town.

99.92% of the figures on this website are made up on the spot.

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

If you are town Acryon, can you info dump ? You may still win !

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VOTE: Willow

Last posts were awful.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

So Willow your strongest scum read is Acryon at the moment ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VOTE: Acryon

Should have stuck to the initial decision ...
~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I'll keep my vote on Acryon, I didn't like how he was trying to white knight Creature/SS slot against all logic. IMHO he did it because he didn't think this slot was SS and wanted to use this to appear town.

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

By the way I have been skimming the thread but didn't reply because nothing made me change my vote.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Not much new
~Blue

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Welcome in Channel

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Hi RC
~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VOTE: Wgeurts

Why the vote ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Channel, we have been prodded for the third time, we'll be replaced soon, however I still believe Acryon is scum.

~BlueTrin

Just to confirm, you'll only be replaced if you fail to respond after being prodded, since you posted before a replacement was found you wont be replaced (unless you're prodded again, then the search begins anew)

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Masquerade, are you replacing in your own previous slot ?

I will confirm this, Masquerade did replace into their own previous slot.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

@nahdia
The one thing I feel most certain of is that either you or Klingoncelt is mafia. I don't think it's two mafia "bussing" earlier in the game to avoid suspicion. Why might you think Klingoncelt to be mafia instead of you?

So basically you have no point and just argue that because two people accuse each other one must be Mafia !

Also why can't it be town vs town ?

Did you just elude this because it was too complicated or you just wanted to throw someone in the grinder ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I'll replace out.

I am still believing that Acryon s slot is scummy. Sorry I tried to find some interest in this game but I find the pace very slow and my other half of this Hydra seem o have been inactive for weeks now, so I lost the last bit of interest in this game.


Apologies I should have replaced out earlier.

~BlueTrin

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Mod can you replace me out

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I don't see Wgeurts and Kop voting for each other.

Pisskop just ate a tempban, so it's not likely that vote will move, unless a replacement is found quickly.

Can everyone move to Wgeurts today and we can lynch Kop Day 5?

Not sure how I didn't see this post before, but it is truly terrible.

Consider me on-board with a Kling lynch if people aren't interested enough in a Kop one.

And you also didn't comment on Nahdia lining up lynches, but suddenly I'm the scum here? No. NO. NOPE>

Your way looked worse I think. "Hey guys, we just lynch these next two people. Everyone agree?"

I would still lynch Acryon but I didn't like the recent post from Masquerade, it feels more like about creating the illusion of scum hunting rather than real scum hunting.

Mod please let us know when you have a replacement

I'll put my vote where I want it to be in the meantime.
VOTE: Acryon[/b]

[GoodNightMsGreen]

VOTE: Acryon

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I have not been replaced yet ? Why aren't there more people who noticed that Acryon was white knighting Creature ?

[GoodNightMsGreen]

I have not been replaced yet ? Why aren't there more people who noticed that Acryon was white knighting Creature ?

Creature was 3rdParty.

As I (we since we are a hydra) highlighted already ... this is why he is scum, think about it for a few seconds.

If Creature was scum, he would not have defended it so much ! The reason he defended it is that because he thought he could have been town. He didn't think he was 3rd party !

Read again the way he fought with me/us to defend Creature and how Creature slot was dodgy from the beginning. Even though Creature was flailing more and more, Acryon still went 100% to defend him.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

Hi guys, since Reverie has replaced out, I ll be sticking around in the meantime.

I was about to post a 'good luck town' post when I saw Armageddon's post about Reverie.

[GoodNightMsGreen]

RachMarie replaces Reverie

Due to the number of replacements and how little time there is before deadline, I am giving a 48 hour extention.

The new deadline is:

Deadline for Day Five: (expired on 2016-05-12 11:14:00)

Bye, apologies for not being more active.