Micro 574 — Space Invaders Mafia 4 — Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

Like this is so hard to argue because I see where you're coming from here Ranger.
This is precisely what I'd do as scum. I think you're misinterpreting my intent with regards to the jump off where I was just fucking pissed at Beeboy.
That shouldn't be seen as a strategic maneuever because I was pissed as fuck.

I would not, however, have done it as scum because I would have wanted to get the max towncred for NM's bus.

He was getting lynched no matter what with his piss poor effort. I would not have sacrificed any amount of that juicy towncred.
I would not have wanted NM alive, in other words.

But, jump in and bus the shit out of my partner and coast off the towncred it exactly what I'd do as scum.
And it's essentially what's happened here. So I see why you see things that way.
But I'm town, and you need to believe that before we're going to get anywhere productive.

And yeah, NM didn't hammer me. He dropped the ball on that. Doesn't mean I'm not town.

[Ranger]

"Mixed signals" does not and should not equal "null"

Does not automatically mean null? Sure! Mixed signals can mean 80% town, 20% scum, or it can be 75% scum, 25% town. Works the other way too, though: mixed signals

can

in fact mean null if the mixed signals are close enough to 50/50. Ambivalence is still a form of null-read, just instead of "I've got nothing on this player", it's "I've got an equal amount saying scum and town on this player". And when most people use the term "mixed signals", they are probably saying this.

My read on Dewy was, at the time, null. I was receiving mixed signals. With time, this grew to be a townread, but not an absolute townread because Dewy

was

defending Not_Mafia in a way suggesting he was a possible partner. I concluded it unlikely, but not impossible.

What happens when the subject of that deathtunnel dies? Jump to another deathtunnel? If RC were scum that wouldn't fly with town.

No, RC would layer on the AtE about how much he sucks, how much he wants to be dead, how uncertain he is, and/or maybe buddy one town player.

I never finished my readthrough of the game. How much of the above did RC at one point do, after the mislynch?

Claims that she still has her protection left in 1624 and then later speaks of it as if it were the first time she claimed in 1649

I...had no memory of having claimed in 1624. Really, really none. But I suppose, strictly speaking, that reinforces the townslip?

[Errantparabola]

Feels like he realizes that Ranger siding is an easy win because of her tunnel on me and is just siding with her because of that.
His position 180, the 'probably' in his spatula beating comment, exaggerated 'OMG I HATE MYSELF IF MISLYNCH' all adds up to it.
I wouldn't advise a vote from Apri for at least a day but this is probably the scum.

Still think Bulba was town, still don't like how EP has started the day.

VOTE: EP

oh my god
oh my fucking god
I cannot say that 1750 is logically incorrect
like yeah RC's town and scum play are two leaves on the same branch. RC has no problem playing the role of the good town. And that's why RC doesn't get lynched often
but 1750 is just fucking dripping with "oh ranger you have to believe me I totally understand you I'm your friend really"

[Errantparabola]

I never finished my readthrough of the game. How much of the above did RC at one point do, after the mislynch?

None.
Literally, you are like, incredibly wrong about this. And that makes me all the more confident that your RC read is fake.

[Errantparabola]

RC gave a list of scum and asked to be BOPed.
Beeboy agreed to this.
It never happened because of Apri not shooting and the momentum never being there.

[Ranger]

1. Ranger wants to avoid committing on a Dewy read despite things that potentially point to Dewy scum.

Not true.

My read on Dewy evolved.

It started as null.
It moved to town.
It moved back down to townish.
Then it moved sort-of back up, to probably but not absolutely town.
Where it stayed until just now, when Dewy died. My stance has been crystal clear: I was fairly confident Dewy was town. There were some things that made me not absolutely sure, namely, Dewy's Not_Mafia defense. These signs that indicated Dewy could be scum weakened what otherwise would have been a rock-solid townread.

(Also, I made a math error. I'm not sure if it's 11 or 12 games with RC, but it's 3 ongoing. Not two.)

she prioritized a whole bunch of games above this one.
wow.

No, I didn't.

I post in games as I see them.

To be frank, I'm in enough Micros that sometimes, one slips through the cracks. I missed this game.
Someone in another game could easily make the same observation about me tomorrow, with me posting in here and all others, but having missed that game.
This is by far not the first time I've missed or almost missed posting in this game.

I come when I see new content.
Sometimes I miss things. Especially given the maftigers skin is orange and the little note thing for new posts is also colored orange, making it harder to spot which threads have new posts and which threads do not.

I will never neglect a game for any reason other than by accident. It'd be stupid alignment-regardless. It's gotten me lynched as scum. It's gotten me replaced as town. It's gotten me close to replaced many times more than that.

[Errantparabola]

doesn't matter ranger. didn't factor at all into my read or vote on you.
thanks for clarifying though.

[Ranger]

why's it suicide to double bus in this setup? one of you gets vigged, other is in the clear.

Because in order to win, you have to navigate:
-The town-controlled lynch D1.
-The town-controlled laser D2.
-The town-controlled lynch D2.
-The town-controlled laser D3.
-The town controlled lynch D3.

At minimum

.
With bad luck regarding protections, you could theoretically get into a position where town gets

an extra laser and lynch

.
That's FIVE town-controlled chances to kill you at minimum, potentially seven! Seven chances, with one confirmed town player.

That's a gauntlet.

Someone like YOU, Radiant, would try it. Discard the weak scumbuddy, play solo, get towncred, let town eat themselves apart, and cruise to the win.

Someone like BlueBloodedToffee would not.

This is also something I apply to Errantparabola: Errant is a reasonably conservative scum player. Errant would know the odds would be against them if Not_Mafia died so early, which is another reason why I think it's you, not Errant.

[RadiantCowbells]

why's it suicide to double bus in this setup? one of you gets vigged, other is in the clear.

Because in order to win, you have to navigate:
-The town-controlled lynch D1.
-The town-controlled laser D2.
-The town-controlled lynch D2.
-The town-controlled laser D3.
-The town controlled lynch D3.

At minimum

.
With bad luck regarding protections, you could theoretically get into a position where town gets

an extra laser and lynch

.
That's FIVE town-controlled chances to kill you at minimum, potentially seven! Seven chances, with one confirmed town player.

That's a gauntlet.

Someone like YOU, Radiant, would try it. Discard the weak scumbuddy, play solo, get towncred, let town eat themselves apart, and cruise to the win.

Someone like BlueBloodedToffee would not.

This is also something I apply to Errantparabola: Errant is a reasonably conservative scum player. Errant would know the odds would be against them if Not_Mafia died so early, which is another reason why I think it's you, not Errant.

BBT has no issues bussing their scumpartners for the record.

[Errantparabola]

everyone keeps talking about the "super towncred" that a hypothetical busser gets from NM's lynch
but I don't see it
when you push someone that went relatively unpressured and they flip scum, sure, towncred through the roof.
at the time of NM's death, ~5 people were calling for it. not a single one of them got magical towncred. which makes complete sense because there's no towncred to be had when you're just one voice in the crowd.

[Ranger]

1. I think NM interactions aren't going to give us much in the way of determining someone's alignment this game. Look at dewy and beeboy.

To the contrary! I could tell beeboy was town even without the town flip, though from the interactions I understood why beeboy was dead. I also thought the

only

bad thing about Dewy was the Not_Mafia defense. (That may be a slight exaggeration, but it's fairly close.)

So the interactions are not useless. Maybe they are to

you

, but they're not to me.

Literally everything is telling me it's RC.

2. And RC doesn't "bus strategically." RC busses 100% if he believes the tradeoff to be worth it. RC busses with the expectation that his scumpartner will die, not with the expectation that he will gain a strategic advantage via distancing.

I didn't say he distanced strategically. I said he

bussed

strategically. I fully am aware when he busses, he expects his partner to die. I just so happen to also know RC, when scum, is not immune to changing his mind based off the situation, and if given the opportunity to attack town and delay the death of the scumbuddy, he will attack town and delay the death of the scumbuddy.

That's what I meant. He knew Not_Mafia was going to die. That doesn't mean Not_Mafia was going to be lasered D1, or necessarily even lynched D1. There was severe interest in lasering BBT if I recall correctly, and people were throwing out all kinds of lynch candidates which RC could and did pursue as alternatives to Not_Mafia.

3. I remember NM being seriously disconnected with the game.

This is what he

claimed

.
You have to be seriously naive if you believe Not_Mafia's play here was because of a disconnect. Not_Mafia was

scum

. He KNEW he was going to die. His mission was to give the town as little information as possible, then die. By that scenario, lynching RC would have been ideal: cut off the town info, even if it meant he'd be lasered D2. Yet it did not materialize.

I have no doubt that you, as potential scum, would get acquainted with the game state and THEN read "from the top" and give a progression of your reads, so that we think that you are reading organically from the top but you've actually already understood the nature of the game state as it is in the present.

I have seven completed scum games.

Not

once

have I displayed this trait.
To the contrary, I have fallen behind as scum

twice

, and both times ended up in a disadvantageous position leading directly to my lynch as a consequence.

3. Your trajectory of your RC read.

My trajectory on RC has been,
"Oh, looks like scum."
"Yeah, that's...pretty strongly scum."
"Definitely scum."
"ARG I NEEDED TO BE IN THE GAME SOONER BECAUSE MOTHER OF GOD RC WAS OBVIOUSLY SCUM AND HE NEEDS TO DIE."

[Ranger]

RC gave a list of scum and asked to be BOPed.

So did Viva La Gloria in white flag.
Spoiler alert! Viva La Gloria, RC's alt, was scum.

[Ranger]

In RC's credit,
UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells

Errant

is

peddling both sides right now pretty hard.
Insisting I'm scum, but at the same time also insisting RC's scum.

So I am listening. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong in lylo.
I still am pretty sure it's him, though.

[Errantparabola]

I have seven completed scum games.

Not once have I displayed this trait.
To the contrary, I have fallen behind as scum twice, and both times ended up in a disadvantageous position leading directly to my lynch as a consequence.

i will admit i based your capability as a player on your town play
and i applied that (it seems incorrectly) to your scum play

talk to me about how you're wrong about your prediction for RC's actions after the deathtunnel failed.

My trajectory on RC has been,
"Oh, looks like scum."
"Yeah, that's...pretty strongly scum."
"Definitely scum."
"ARG I NEEDED TO BE IN THE GAME SOONER BECAUSE MOTHER OF GOD RC WAS OBVIOUSLY SCUM AND HE NEEDS TO DIE."

that's my point.

To the contrary! I could tell beeboy was town even without the town flip, though from the interactions I understood why beeboy was dead. I also thought the only bad thing about Dewy was the Not_Mafia defense. (That may be a slight exaggeration, but it's fairly close.)

So the interactions are not useless. Maybe they are to you, but they're not to me.

Literally everything is telling me it's RC.

right, so the interactions led to beeboy's death and was a bad thing for dewy.
both of them were town.

i'll respond to rest later. my stomach calls for food.

[Errantparabola]

Errant

is

peddling both sides right now pretty hard.
Insisting I'm scum, but at the same time also insisting RC's scum.

not once have i come close to EVEN COMING CLOSE to wanting RC dead.

[Errantparabola]

since you refuse to engage in line by line (which is fine) i'll sum up your read.
RC is voting me because he holds me to the same standard of reads-confidence that he and Ranger have. That's simply ludicrous.

[Ranger]

talk to me about how you're wrong about your prediction for RC's actions after the deathtunnel failed.

For that, I would need time to read, which I have not had, given the constant stream of new posts here.

that's my point.

And? You don't see the evolution of certainty?

not once have i come close to EVEN COMING CLOSE to wanting RC dead.

1752 implies otherwise. It is by far not the only spot, but it's one of the strongest, just on this page alone.

In your credit: RC actually

hasn't

voted you if I'm remembering recent events correctly...indicating he's waiting to vote, waiting for some sort of cue that says, "yep, I can vote here safely".
Which is. Again. Why I'm pretty sure it's him.

[RadiantCowbells]

Still think Bulba was town, still don't like how EP has started the day.

VOTE: EP

[Errantparabola]

Rc's voted
Ive made it pretty blindingly clear that i think that both of you are scummy to some degree.
That being said, i think that not only was bulba scummier than early game rc, but you are scummier than late game rc.
And even if your accusations were correct, i fail to understand why "peddling both sides" is a bad thing. Are you suggesting that the best thing to do in lylo is to pick a side and refuse to consider the other side? Because in my experience, that's what loses games.

[Ranger]

And even if your accusations were correct, i fail to understand why "peddling both sides" is a bad thing. Are you suggesting that the best thing to do in lylo is to pick a side and refuse to consider the other side?

Not exactly, but kind-of, yeah. You either form a strong opinion and follow through, or you don't form a strong opinion and then actively try to fix having a lack of opinion until you do.

Your approach is instead attacking both sides equally. You

claim

you're attacking me harder, but I don't see it that way; I see equal amounts of mud slung at both me and RC from you. And that's basically the one and only thing giving me doubt about RC. The equal amounts, lack of hard commitment, is more typical of your scum game.

[Errantparabola]

And even if your accusations were correct, i fail to understand why "peddling both sides" is a bad thing. Are you suggesting that the best thing to do in lylo is to pick a side and refuse to consider the other side?

Not exactly, but kind-of, yeah. You either form a strong opinion and follow through, or you don't form a strong opinion and then actively try to fix having a lack of opinion until you do.

Your approach is instead attacking both sides equally. You

claim

you're attacking me harder, but I don't see it that way; I see equal amounts of mud slung at both me and RC from you. And that's basically the one and only thing giving me doubt about RC. The equal amounts, lack of hard commitment, is more typical of your scum game.

I'm going to break this down for you.

1. What's the motive of scum attacking both sides equally? To seem impartial and to set up progressions for both votes.
2. If I wanted to convince you of being impartial, then why would I be actively attempting to convince you otherwise?
3. If I wanted to set up progressions for both votes, then why would I be voting you right now?
4. There is no consistency between my actions and your accusations and that makes me pretty confident that you're scum.
5. Secondly, what you're trying to do is openly suggest that I am at fault for the fact that I believe that both people are acting some degree of scummy. That's ludicrous.
6. Ranger I want to give you a scenario. Say you're town in a 4 way LYLO like this one, and the other two unconfirmed you both perceive as scummy, one more than the other. If the person that you perceive as less scummy acts in a way that suggests that they might be scum, do you just STOW AWAY that belief without telling anyone else because you don't want to "play both sides?"
7. Hell no.

[Ranger]

1. What's the motive of scum attacking both sides equally? To seem impartial and to set up progressions for both votes.
2. If I wanted to convince you of being impartial, then why would I be actively attempting to convince you otherwise?

This more or less answers itself. I've made the statement that scum have strong motivation to be attacking both sides equally. Attempting to convince players you're

not

attacking both sides equally is an attempt to defend against the statement.

3. If I wanted to set up progressions for both votes, then why would I be voting you right now?

Why not? It does no harm to have your vote on. You can switch votes without needing to unvote. In the mean time, it also serves to...be 'proof' that you are not attacking both sides. (This is something you and RC have both done: "Ranger, I'm voting Errant, I'm not setting both of you up"; "Ranger, I'm voting you, how is that setting you both up?")

4. There is no consistency between my actions and your accusations and that makes me pretty confident that you're scum.

I have no response to this because this is a "no u" argument on your part.

5. Secondly, what you're trying to do is openly suggest that I am at fault for the fact that I believe that both people are acting some degree of scummy.

Yes, I am. This is as town as my town game gets. Last time you and I were in a situation like this, I even

caught you for not realizing I was town

. In contrast, RC has admitted his play this game is indistinguishable from his actions if he were scum. So I have every right to suggest you are at fault here. Apricity gets excused, for not having experience with me, same as in that game how AlwaysInnocent got excused. You lacked the excuse then, you still lack it now. This is where the doubt comes from.

In short? It's a player-based burden of proficiency: when interacting with me, you should know better. Yet here you are.

Say you're town in a 4 way LYLO like this one, and the other two unconfirmed you both perceive as scummy, one more than the other. If the person that you perceive as less scummy acts in a way that suggests that they might be scum, do you just STOW AWAY that belief without telling anyone else because you don't want to "play both sides?"

In that situation, what I would be doing is not voting either and openly reading.

AKA...you know. Exactly what I'm doing

at this very moment

. Because a situation which

was

"this player is definitely scum, the other one has to be town by default" has shifted into "I thought this player was scum, but there's this something I

really need addressed

to be sure", which...hasn't materialized yet. Thus the doubt.

[Ranger]

Got a

very

strong gut vibe that arguing with Errant is townVtown.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells.

[RadiantCowbells]

You've really fallen short of the promise you showed in Blitz 21 in every game since then

[RadiantCowbells]

like you've never lynched me as scum yet, true.
but you've never lynched me as town.
and when you're talking to a person who 30-1 when getting lynched is town, that's something to be proud of.

pls stahp.