Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Keyser Söze]

I will be back tomorrow evening/Monday.

I promise to not be a "mean person" for the rest of the game. I will also make sure any points/reads/problems I want to share are clear, concise and direct.

I feel that taking a short break from this game has cleared my head.

[TellTaleHeart]

That being said, you played against scum-Keyser in Mini Normal 1719 - my feel-read of that game is that he was a lot less assertive about his opinions as compared to Mini 1744 where I saw him as town, and this game is feeling more like the latter than the former to me. You played in the first game so you might have a different perspective; if so I'd like to hear it.

I assume you have signatures turned off.

[Aquanim]

I'm also liking GuyFawkes for scum.
...

I scumread the Masquerade slot, and that didn't go away when it sheeped the Kain wagon then jumped off when Keyser did with the following reason:

@Aquanim: Just the one post where he seems to have reason. I don't completely agree with his reads but it shows he put thought into it.
...

I don't think "he made one post to which I can find a way to ascribe townie motivation" is a legit reason to townread somebody. Pretty much every scum I've ever seen made some posts which were at least moderately towny.

The only redeeming feature of Guy's defense of Kain is that I can kind of believe that a townie might believe #437.

If anything, popsofctown's defense of Kain was even worse - pretty much boiled down to "I'm more experienced than you, neener neener", "too bad to be scum" and again cherrypicking individual things which a townie motivation could be ascribed to and ignoring the bigger picture.

Seems kind of unlikely they're both scum, though.

[Aquanim]

That being said, you played against scum-Keyser in Mini Normal 1719 - my feel-read of that game is that he was a lot less assertive about his opinions as compared to Mini 1744 where I saw him as town, and this game is feeling more like the latter than the former to me. You played in the first game so you might have a different perspective; if so I'd like to hear it.

I assume you have signatures turned off.

No, I see his signature. Pretty sure it hasn't changed since I played with BBT over a year ago.

I think there's a difference between "informing oneself about meta" and "building a case around meta/relying on meta". I agree with BBT that the second is unreliable.

[SirCakez]

Boonskies will be replacing Phoenix Wright! Please welcome him.

[Aquanim]

Put nobody at L-1 unless you're willing for them to be hammered without warning.

[Boonskiies]

I'm so jazzed.

It's BBT!! Long time no see!

Golden Rob and mn were pinging my scumdar pretty hard. Like...ahh...I can handle mn's playstyle and attitude, but the way he reacts and brings up Golden Rob's slot seems like buddy to me.

On a side note of that, holy Keyscum Soze.

I'm liking TTH; I'm happy to town read her.

[Boonskiies]

I can't read Kain. None of what he does makes any sense. It's annoying to deal with.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anybody want to get an Oceanwind wagon going?

I could do this. After Keyser though.

I think it

is

true that any impact he could be having is getting diluted in massive volume, and that's what I was talking about earlier in post 269. But I'm still unsure if that's his intent or he just likes hearing himself talk.

OK, but that's not my problem with what he is doing.

~Cringe~

Yeah, now I don't like the Keyser wagon.

Could easily be a bus. We also both know his vote doesn't stick for more than 3 posts.

That being said, you played against scum-Keyser in Mini Normal 1719 - my feel-read of that game is that he was a lot less assertive about his opinions as compared to Mini 1744 where I saw him as town, and this game is feeling more like the latter than the former to me. You played in the first game so you might have a different perspective; if so I'd like to hear it.

Is this you saying that you think Keyser has been assertive with his opinion this game? If so, show me some examples.

I'm so jazzed.

It's BBT!! Long time no see!

Golden Rob and mn were pinging my scumdar pretty hard. Like...ahh...I can handle mn's playstyle and attitude, but the way he reacts and brings up Golden Rob's slot seems like buddy to me.

On a side note of that, holy Keyscum Soze.

I'm liking TTH; I'm happy to town read her.

Boonie!!!!

Talk about MN and GR some more. Also, what makes you think Keyser is scum?

[Aquanim]

...
Is this you saying that you think Keyser has been assertive with his opinion this game? If so, show me some examples.

I think his scumread into null-read of Kain is a read that Keyser put his back into. I am not saying that it's a strong read on Kain one way or the other (which it obviously isn't), or that I think it is a good read - I am saying it is a read which Keyser went to a lot of effort to explain. (Further, he knew he would have to do that when he made the switch back to a null read, and he wasn't afraid to do so.) His trying to get more information out of Kain since then also rings true to me.

For another example, these posts, the read on mn isn't super strong in the first post and there isn't a read on pops at all in the second, but the tone is firm and assertive. His posts in his scumgame have a much less decisive tone.

@BBT

: Had you read the thread through before you started writing your review (starting here)?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I always read bits and pieces as the game plays out but I obviously reread during my catch up. I don't follow the game closely until I'm actually in the process of contributing.

I don't see Keyser being assertive at all and the fact he went back to a null read should tell you something. Effort is not indicative alignment, look at his content. It's poor.

[Aquanim]

...
and the fact he went back to a null read should tell you something. ...

Yeah, indeed it did.

Why do you think a scum-Keyser felt that making that scum read on Kain, and then retracting it, was a good idea?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It shows 'effort' in an attempt to make reads. It shows a pro-active attitude. It shows an attempt to scum hunt.

But this all falls flat on it's face when it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

Agree or disagree?

[Aquanim]

It shows 'effort' in an attempt to make reads. It shows a pro-active attitude. It shows an attempt to scum hunt.

But this all falls flat on it's face when it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

Agree or disagree?

Are you saying that you think Keyser planned from the start to retract back to a null read or not?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know whether he did or not. What I do know is that the content he is producing is less than impressive.

Did you agree or disagree with my last post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I mean, even when Keyser was voting Kain he still said he needed time to sort the slot.

[Aquanim]

I agree that it's not impressive play, but the more important question is "what was scum-Keyser thinking when he did this?".

I don't see why he would plan from the start to vote and then unvote Kain; he would know that would look sketchy, and there were other things he could have pursued to "show effort" that would not look sketchy.

I don't see why he would vote Kain, and then decide he should unvote after Kain did even scummier stuff and the wagon gained momentum with myself and Masquerade. If Kain's scum he comes under a ton of pressure if/when Kain flips; if Kain's town, he just rides it to a mislynch.

Neither of those seems like a good plan.

On the other hand, I don't find it *that* hard to believe that a town-Keyser changed his mind.

[Aquanim]

Since you're not voting for him, I assume you disagree with my scumread of Kain. Why?

[Keyser Söze]

But this all falls flat on it's face when it always ends with a null read and a serious lack of committment and conviction.

This is not scum alignment indicative and you should know this. Both scum and town can demonstrate a "lack of commitment and conviction" in a read. You do not scum read and lynch someone based on this - it is tactically naive and absurd. I would actually be more fearful of players who push a 'closed case' strong read of a player after a short/light catch-up. Where is the town-paranoia and investigation before your definitive conclusion?
Thus, I refute your logic and your play actually tends itself to opportunism. I do not believe you have read the full thread, as you have no grasp of the tone/content of my posts.



This is my position on KainTepes: I am having difficulty reading KainTepes. I see overwhelming tells in his play that I usually associate with scum behaviour, but I personally attach alot of importance to WIFOM in my analysis. Therefore, the fact I can't see KainTepes possessing the scum-motivation to be lynched/investigated early forces me to null-read KainTepes. I attacked both KainTepes and mn as bad players (which I admit was anti-town) - but this was due to my frustration with their posts - they are not playing the way I want a townie to play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Firstly, you're assuming all scum think everything through that they do; this isn't the case.

Secondly, I just gave you multiple reasons for why scum!Keyser might do what he did. There is also the point that he wanted to push the wagon along to ensure Kain was lynched; he cannot achieve this if he doesn't cast his vote. This allows him to present all his scum points on Kain for everyone to see. Then he can backtrack but his reasons always remain in the thread for other people to think about/use. He's planting seeds of doubt and letting town do the leg work for him.

If Kain got lynched right now, who would you say is the primary pusher of the wagon? Who would shoulder the most responsibilty for the lynch? It certainly isn't Keyser but he has contributed a hell of a lot to lynch a person he doesn't have a read on.

PEdit - I can't read Kain for shit and I'm hoping he gets vigged.

[Aquanim]

Firstly, you're assuming all scum think everything through that they do; this isn't the case.

No, I'm not. I'm assuming Keyser Söze, as scum, thinks through the votes he chooses to make.

[Keyser Söze]

I will study the last 5 pages later and share my reads/thoughts, but I feel I needed to clarify those two points as I felt my play was being massively miss-represented by BlueBloodedToffee.

[Keyser Söze]

Slandaar, help me lynch Keyser.

Slandaar will try to lynch me if he scum-reads me, and I talk through all his items of concern. However, I would not respect Slandaar as a player if he blindly sheeps you - I think Slandaar wouldn't respect me if I did the same. So why do you feel the need to push Slandaar onto my wagon? He is currently engaged in a conversation with me. Do you sense he is not town-reading me? Again I see this as opportunistic behaviour.


As I skimmed the reasons why people voted me they are all weak/non-alignment indicative points (mn, GuyFawkes, BlueBloodedToffee, [KainTepes]) - I find them unsatisfying. I will address them one by one later in due time after I have caught up.

[Keyser Söze]

Golden Rob and mn were pinging my scumdar pretty hard. Like...ahh...I can handle mn's playstyle and attitude, but the way he reacts and brings up Golden Rob's slot seems like buddy to me.

On a side note of that, holy Keyscum Soze.

I'm liking TTH; I'm happy to town read her.

Can you show me the posts where you got to these conclusions/reads.

Do you scum-read mn outside of that pre-flip associative "buddy" up tell with Golden Robster?

[KainTepes]

BBT ARE YOU TOWN.....??