Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Thor665]

@Keyser - Holy cow, dude. Tell you what, quote me saying that my way is the only right way, or that my cases are brilliant and unarguable (in a non-joke), or that I am always (or even more often than not) right), or that I am offended by being called a butthole. Why in the universe are you getting your panties in a twist over stuff I'm not saying or doing?

Get off my back and stop whining about made up issues.
If you can't, then one of us really should replace out, because this is clearly passing beyond strategy and you apparently really believe this stuff.

As to your one point - yes, scum might defend town for the sake of doing so, they might also defend a scumbuddy replace out. However, I don't see any evidence for a scumbuddy connection between Boon/BBT, so I don't see a reason to expect that lacking evidence and don't consider it. As to the other, yes, maybe he is defending town for no real reason - but that is a scum move I would not anticipate from BBT, and thus I find it less likely than the chance that he is town assessing a town motivation (especially as he is decrying the game state as pro scum - which it was).

What is your definition of a tunnel? So far as I can see, BBT's never so much as considered lynching or pressuring anybody else today, from the very beginning of his catch-up.

Scumhunting is more than just calling someone scum.
Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and (as BBT did) even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel, is all called 'scumhuntung' in my book.

Tunneling is focusing on one player to the exclusion of all others.

if you're not doing that, then it means you're looking at multiple players and, at that stage, the worse that can be said is that you are very focused on one player.
And if you think that player is scum - that makes sense as a playstyle, you *should* be focused on someone you think is scum.

What's your definition, and in addition to that, explain how it's scummy.
Because even legit tunneling, to my mind, is only scummy insomuch as you avoid giving reads on other players. That's the beginning and the end of what makes tunneling scummy as far as I'm aware, and I don't see that from BBT in any metric.

The difference is that I feel like you are interested in getting thoughts, or at least reactions, out of other people through pushing Keyser. I don't get that vibe from BBT's posts.

Eh, you and Keyser both say that, but at the end of the day I think you get that because I'm *saying* that's what I want (well, and I'll admit in Keyser's case it's because I think he's vaguely trying to placate me for scum gain while being annoyed at me as a person).
There hasn't really been enough evidence to support that working theory yet.
But, even so, what evidence exists is just that I'm basically active and am asking questions.
BBT is basically active and is asking questions - sure, not as much as me, and maybe not in an aggressive style, but the core concept is still there in microcosm, and at that stage - what's the difference?

Meh. I don't townread the Masquerade slot, either, and it's gotten BBT out of saying anything more about the slot.

Except it hasn't - no one has questioned him about the slot at all and he went out of his way to note the slot as town, and then later to bring it up in defense from a weak, and empty, and lonely vote from TTH.
So there is no evidence to suggest he wants to avod discussing the slot, and there is evidence to suggest the opposite conclusion of what you're theorizing here.
I'm not sold.

[Aquanim]

Scumhunting is more than just calling someone scum.
Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and (as BBT did)

even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel

, is all called 'scumhuntung' in my book.

The only instance of BBT doing this I can see is asking Boonskiies for his read on mn and Golden Robster. I don't say BBT has done literally nothing but talk about Keyser, but there's very little, and none of it impresses me.

What's your definition, and in addition to that, explain how it's scummy.
Because even legit tunneling, to my mind, is only scummy insomuch as you avoid giving reads on other players. That's the beginning and the end of what makes tunneling scummy as far as I'm aware, and I don't see that from BBT in any metric.

My definition is largely the same as yours, except I don't think someone has to be doing literally nothing else to be tunneling. I think BBT is indeed using his push on Keyser to avoid talking about other players very much. Like I said, he's offered very few other opinions and none of them interesting or detailed.

BBT is basically active and is asking questions - sure, not as much as me, and maybe not in an aggressive style, but the core concept is still there in microcosm, and at that stage - what's the difference?

I don't think that assessment is accurate. BBT prod-dodged for a week (during the period where the thread was focused on Kain, which I can imagine scum would be uncomfortable with), and asked a few pretty tame questions which don't convince me that he's actually thinking about the game.

Meh. I don't townread the Masquerade slot, either, and it's gotten BBT out of saying anything more about the slot.

Except it hasn't - no one has questioned him about the slot at all and he went out of his way to note the slot as town, and then later to bring it up in defense from a weak, and empty, and lonely vote from TTH.
So there is no evidence to suggest he wants to avod discussing the slot, and there is evidence to suggest the opposite conclusion of what you're theorizing here.
I'm not sold.

BBT didn't say anything about the Masquerade slot to TTH except about the replacement, and there's certainly more one could talk about with respect to that slot (Masquerade hopping on and off the Kain wagon early without much explanation, GuyFawkes defending Kain while being null on him, the lurking since then...)

[Thor665]

I don't say BBT has done literally nothing but talk about Keyser, but there's very little, and none of it impresses me.

So it's a case based on a matter of degrees then. That's always going to be a harder sell.

My definition is largely the same as yours, except I don't think someone has to be doing literally nothing else to be tunneling. I think BBT is indeed using his push on Keyser to avoid talking about other players very much. Like I said, he's offered very few other opinions and none of them interesting or detailed.

Outside of the opinion part "interesting"
I would note that "detailed" is a bit of a playstyle issue, and "few other" is a degree - how many pinions does he need to offer to be not scummy? He is assuredly offering some on a fair slate of players, often unasked - to my mind that is not a calculated plan to avoid giving reads, or if it is, then it's clever enough to fool me...and also obligated to still give reads to mask not giving...other...reads?

BBT didn't say anything about the Masquerade slot to TTH except about the replacement, and there's certainly more one could talk about with respect to that slot (Masquerade hopping on and off the Kain wagon early without much explanation, GuyFawkes defending Kain while being null on him, the lurking since then...)

Yes, except for mentioning the light of the sun, he did not mention the sun, and he could have talked about the heat of the sun, or the rotation of it but didn't.
This is nitpicky, isn't it?

I also feel like you're trying to sell your case on associatives, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I conclusively proved that Kain was town (or maybe that Boon was) it would put a big hole in your case on BBT, yes?
Doesn't that concern you as far as your reason for pushing the slot?

[Keyser Söze]

Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel.

active and is asking questions.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE playing like this.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE NOT playing like this.

[Keyser Söze]

Thor665, what's your read on GuyFawkes-Masquerade?


@everyone - show me town/null-GuyFawkes-Masquerade.

[Ircher]

@Thor join the righteous BBT wagpn. The case is at least as good as the KS case if not much better.

[Ircher]

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

[TellTaleHeart]

The second BBT pops up, it's going to be super obvious how town he is, yet you bumble bees will probably make up reasons to want to push him.

Ew, I don't like this post.

[Keyser Söze]

I still want to be convinced that this is "super obvious"/"strong town" BBT:

"He's calling people town"
"He's asking multiple people multiple questions"
"meta meta meta"

These aren't doing it for me. Why can't scum-BBT do any of the above? He should be a null-town-lean at best if that's your argument.

Would not vote, would not lynch:

Aquanim
TellTaleHeart

Would need a good argument to vote here:

Thor665-mn
Slandaar
popsofctown

Leaning positive, but still not a firm read:

Titus-Golden Robster
massive

---------------------------------------------------- <<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP:

Ircher-OceanWind

Bad through play, not town reading:

KainTepes
Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade
BlueBloodedToffee




With 4 days to go til deadline, does anyone scum-read any from my "Would not vote, would not lynch" / "Would need a good argument to vote here" pile?

[Thor665]

Calling people town, and asking people for their reads on various people and even inviting conversations on players outside the tunnel.

active and is asking questions.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE playing like this.

Give me a list of players in this game who ARE NOT playing like this.

Since I have accused no one in this game of tunneling, my answer would be "everyone is on the ARE NOT list."

Thor665, what's your read on GuyFawkes-Masquerade?

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I'd pop them to L-1 if they were on L-2 just to see what happened.

@Thor join the righteous BBT wagpn. The case is at least as good as the KS case if not much better.

I disagree, I think both your and Aquanim's case on him is filled with functionally provable untruths/blind adherence to game theory.
I'm not really looking to defend the slot, as I don't find him so townie as to deserve that, but I find the push on him pretty soft on the whole beyond a conceptual pleasure of any slot being pushed to L-1 as of a day or so ago.

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

I do, but the sweet spot for that has sailed, and everyone seems entranced with the idea of deadline lynches, so I'm of a mind to sit back and let that happen now.
If he gets to L-2 I will happily support it, you have my word, and you can use that as a selling point with anyone else you want to convince - heck, I'd basically happily support a wagon on even my town reads at this stage, just to see something happen.

[Thor665]

I still want to be convinced that this is "super obvious"/"strong town" BBT:

"He's calling people town"
"He's asking multiple people multiple questions"
"meta meta meta"

These aren't doing it for me. Why can't scum-BBT do any of the above? He should be a null-town-lean at best if that's your argument.

Aren't you quoting Boon's stance supported by my arguments here?
That is messed up.
Unless during your skim you missed that I noted I was wrong in saying BBT, and meant Boon which is less messed up, but still kind of shallow and empty (second verse, same as the first).

With 4 days to go til deadline, does anyone scum-read any from my "Would not vote, would not lynch" / "Would need a good argument to vote here" pile?

I would happily lynch pops at this stage, I would guardedly lynch Slandaar.

[Keyser Söze]

Since I have accused no one in this game of tunneling, my answer would be "everyone is on the ARE NOT list."

This is fair.

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I feel like he's choosing when to come in and comment... instead of being "proactive".

Aren't you quoting Boon's stance supported by my arguments here?

I combined both the "strong town" and "obvious town" sentiment of both arguments.

I would happily lynch pops at this stage, I would guardedly lynch Slandaar.

Can you give me a summary of "happily lynch pops".

My only minor concern with Slandaar is that he needs to shout more now. I feel like he is waiting for something. I.e Now's the time to reveal your cards.

[Slandaar]

I would guardedly lynch Slandaar.

That is not very nice Thorzan

I can't be bothered arguing theory with you so I am just not going to.

[massive]

So, basically, you're noting that I am fact checking myself.
Wouldn't that be a town action?

I'm not saying it's not.

At worst I'd say he felt like a scumbuddy worried about protecting his buddy too much.
And even if I fully believe that, I should still lynch Keyser first, yeah?

Which is your prerogative. I'm not sold on Keyser yet and I don't need the association with Keyser to think Ircher's play is scummy.

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

Stuff like this definitely plays into the unflipped association between the two. Does Keyser absolutely NEED to be scum for this counterwagon attempt to be scummy?

[Thor665]

Masquerade read to me about how you read to me.
GuyFawkes I'm more neutral of, but if he's scum I'd toss Kaine into obv. town territory, and if he's town then he's just been a bit boring and not very proactive, and so I lack a read.

I feel like he's choosing when to come in and comment... instead of being "proactive".

1. I didn't call him proactive, so...sure?
2. Everyone in this game chooses when to come in and comment - that's how a forum works. I feel like the accusation you're kind of making here is strategic lurking - and I'm not sure I disagree with it, insomuch as, yeah, sure, he's not commenting on much,but I would also note that there are many players here whom I find their level of participation low and or unhelpful, so it's not exactly unique to him either if you're trying to sell me on it being scummy. Clearly town avoid participating functionally as well. At that stage, sadly, we are left with trying to abuse people to play 'any good at all' or accepting this as null.

I combined both the "strong town" and "obvious town" sentiment of both arguments.

Except the only time I said that about BBT I misspoke a name, and was corrected and agreed with the correction, so...you combined something I didn't say and then didn't even address me when I asked if that was an error on your part.
This is yet another example of your empty posting - you're not actually communicating here even though you're writing words.
That's anti-town and pro-scum at the same time, regardless of your alignment.
I think your alignment is scum, fyi.

Can you give me a summary of "happily lynch pops".

How do you summarize a single sentence?
What I think you want is an expansion of why I would - to that I reply with "he's sitting on a vanity wagon and acting proud of it, while openly asking for other wagons to support, yet refusing to move."
At best he's town who wants to sheep, but only to certain players, which means he has a weird agenda that he can't describe - which is wonky and he should stop pretending like he's open and just list off lynch desires and be proactive.
At worst, he's scum, who won't move to certain players because he has a scum agenda - which makes more sense logically.
That makes him a valid lynch.

My only minor concern with Slandaar is that he needs to shout more now. I feel like he is waiting for something. I.e Now's the time to reveal your cards.

Slandaar hasn't even picked up his cards from the table in front of him yet.
And that's a pretty major concern even if it's an only concern.

I can't be bothered arguing theory with you so I am just not going to.

It's not like you're doing anything else in the game that it would get in the way of
Seriously, you've gone like 48 hours and done nothing.
Not even commentary.
Why in the world would you not think you should be on a lynch list for that?

So, basically, you're noting that I am fact checking myself.
Wouldn't that be a town action?

I'm not saying it's not.

I'm not saying it's not either - but it sounded like an accusation more than praise of my play.
Were you just trying to note for everyone how you think I look town?

Which is your prerogative. I'm not sold on Keyser yet

What are you doing to sell or not sell yourself on Keyser as we sit here only a few days out from deadline and no major wagon in sight?

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

Stuff like this definitely plays into the unflipped association between the two. Does Keyser absolutely NEED to be scum for this counterwagon attempt to be scummy?

Why else would scum Ircher want to start a counterwagon?
Fear of BBT?
Belief that BBT is a PR and Keyser is not?
Belief that the Keyser wagon will go through regardless and will look bad if he's on it?
Not wanting to contradict a previous statement about Keyser= town?

I think that's about the list, do any of the, fit for you in a Ircher scum narrative?

[popsofctown]

BBT has been making a mix of protown posts and scummy posts, I usually don't want to lynch that.

[Keyser Söze]

1. I didn't call him proactive, so...sure?

I didn't say you did. Stop arguing over fucking words and listen to what I'm trying to say. Again you are seeing what you want to see. I'm saying he is active lurking, not pro-actively scum-hunting.

I feel like the accusation you're kind of making here is strategic lurking - and I'm not sure I disagree with it

Fine. This is what I wanted. Your fucking opinion. Do not give me textbook/game theory bullshit. I want your personal stance.

Except the only time I said that about BBT I misspoke a name, and was corrected and agreed with the correction, so...you combined something I didn't say and then didn't even address me when I asked if that was an error on your part.

Do you or don't you hold these positions:
BBT is strong town.
BBT asks questions
BBT is open minded
BBT encourages conversation

If I am in error, please clarify.

I think your alignment is scum, fyi.

I feel sorry for you Thor665.

How do you summarize a single sentence?

Again. Arguing over the words. You damn well know what I meant. Show me your abbreviated scum-popsofctown case.

"he's sitting on a vanity wagon and acting proud of it, while openly asking for other wagons to support, yet refusing to move."

Thanks.
See, it was pretty simple, eh?
Yes, this is scum-indicative behaviour.

[Thor665]

Well gosh and golly.

[Thor665]

If I am in error, please clarify.

How about you answer this - why do you think I gave BBT a "strong townread"?

Answer that and I'll answer yours - because I've already clarified your error for you.
Twice.

[Keyser Söze]

If I am in error, please clarify.

How about you answer this - why do you think I gave BBT a "strong townread"?

Answer that and I'll answer yours - because I've already clarified your error for you.
Twice.

BBT came across as a

strong townread

this page

He makes multiple comments about multiple players and expresses many views that seem open minded and built to generate discussion. Not only is this the opposite of tunneling (and shows that his focus is healthy, and not blind in any way) it also looks

immensely town

.

This doesn't look like a null or scum read to me.

[Keyser Söze]

@Slandaar

- yes or no to the BBT/Keyser lynch?

Or are you:
-undecided on both slots?
-more favourable elswhere?

[GuyFawkes]

Really, I've already explained it. ISO me and expand the spoilers if you cant tell.

I did. It was unimpressive.

It's *at least* as good as the Keyser case.

It's at least as good as the case against your 97% town read?

[GuyFawkes]

Thor665, what's your read on GuyFawkes-Masquerade?


@everyone - show me town/null-GuyFawkes-Masquerade.

If I were scum, who do you think would be my partners?

[Keyser Söze]

If I were scum, who do you think would be my partners?

I'll answer this fully AFTER you are lynched

Right now I'm looking for individual scum (I used to be guilty for basing my reads on confirmation bias, drawing up scum teams in my head, which affected my play immensely).

I'll present to you why I do not town read you personally and we can talk it through. Or dig up my posts now if you have time.

[SirCakez]

Hi