Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[Boonskiies]

That GuyFawkes push....

[Ircher]

TTH, what are you doing in this game?

Sinking into sadness and apathy.

@TTH What's your Massive Read?

[TellTaleHeart]

With townreads on Slandaar, Aquanim, and maybe Golden Robster I'm still hunting out of a

really

big pool. And it's page 22.

Talk to me about GR being town.

You should've asked me this earlier because I would've been able to answer it better. I think it had something to do with the way he pushed OceanWind?

If you're wondering why I'm voting the slot, I'm just sheeping pops. He seems competent enough.

[TellTaleHeart]

@TTH What's your Massive Read?

I don't really have one. I would guess town, but that's just a half-court heave.

[GuyFawkes]

you guys haven't lynched keyser yet?

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #4

1. I don't think we're convinced on the KS is town idea (ie, those on the wagons), so I'm gonna try to guage some of Keyser's posts to see if they are truly "empty" as the scum-Keyser case claims.

2. Let's start with 809: Keyser is asking KT how he views the other players defending Keyser in terms of his belief that scum will WK scum as losing scum makes scum more likely to lose. -

Tell me what is empty about this post -- Keyser is asking KT a question that basically amounts to a meta question. What I think KS is aiming for here is an answer that will help Keyser better guage Kain's experience, beliefs, and playstyle. The first step to determining if a player is scum is imo learning how they play.

3. Thor suggests in 811 for us to hop onto the Keyser wagon despite having 3 days left. -

Confirmation bias? Definitely. Scum? Probably not. Bad Town? High chance. @Thor -- Stop with your petty little arguments/tunnel on Keyser and start giving your thoughts on other players; in fact, I have no idea where you stand on people such as myself, Boon, pops, and GuyFawkes cuz you're so focused on Keyser.

4. 815 - Keyser once again askes Thor for his stance on BBT. -

Again, this isn't empty posting. Keyser is directly reasking a question Thor has decided to ignore in his *self-righteousness* - Keyser goal in asking this question is trying to guage Thor's reads on everyone besides Keyser. Knowing other people's reads and thoughts is a truly tremendous help in deciphering the puzzle; aka, Keyser is asking for utmost important info.

5. Pops says in 821 that only Keyser seems to be enjoying the game. -

While almost certainly a joke like your replace out joke, it feels a bit... weird to say. Also, who's to say the rest of us aren't having fun?

6. 822 and 823 have no impact on the game, so certainly they must be empty posts! -

Nah, wouldn't call that empty posting but more like having fun.

7. 833 - BBT states "can't convince scum I'm town" -

This employs two logical fallancies: ORLYScum and Confirmation Bias. First, let's discuss confirmation bias -- it's when you express a strong read on a person generally without unbiased facts to back it up. You also conduct your tunnel at the ignorance of everything else. Then, let's discuss ORLYScum which is when you disregard what a oerson simply because they're scum. This is a logical fallancy, as you are using your subjective view to try to discredit your target's thoughts regadless of the validity of any claims. Neither of these are neccessary alignment-indicative by themselves though.

10. Let's take 840 as another example. -

So this is a quote response, so my numbers correspond with the quotes in order:

1. BBT states he'll just give his thoughts. - Keyser responds "Deal" as in he's ok ith that. Unlike... let's see...

Thor

, Keyser understands that sometimes you must compromise. Anyway, I think this is what Keyser and all of us on BBT's wagon wanted in the first place -- For BBT to express his thoughts this game aside from his fairly poorly supported Keyser scumread.

2. Thor has suggested Keyser isn't reading, and Keyser responds by stating he is, and the perceived not reading is simply disagreeing -- Not empty posting, this is Keyser offering another outlook on the situation to Thor (who cannot seem to understand that Mafia is a.... TEAM GAME....). This is def. what I thought when Thor made that comment.

3. No comment

4. Keyser points out that Thor keeps saying he scumreads Keyser, yet has yet to provide a logical reason why. I'll let you be the judge on this one, but my opinion is it's a completely fair argument.

5. Keyser explains his perspective on issues and why he thinks people should express their reads. - Again, Keyser is actively trying to get input from the rest of you, so he can discern people's stances better. Keyser is also admitting that he COULD BE WRONG (*stares at Thor*) and that's why he wants to hear other people's opinions. That's town-motivated imo.

6. Another fun/joke comment. Aka, non alignment indicative.

11. Boon apparently is leaning towards scum-Ircher in 844 -

I am interested in hearing what the case against me is,

excluding any and all pre-flip associations with Keyser

12. Boon says I sheeped everywhere in Mini 1755 in 849 -

Not true! I spent a good amount of time D5 making my opinions as well as D1 and the start of D2. Doing note posts and IO reads are not sheeping. But, if you are gonna meta-dive me, check my wiki page.

13. 852 - Main argument from Thor's POV regarding my lynch is *pre-flip association with Keyser* -

My two-cents -- For one who is normally found as an easy ML by scum, I'm not feeling it this game. I just don't get why people are even toying with the possibility of scum Ircher when there is only pre-flip association case to look at.

14. 853 by Thor states Keyser isn't reading and is merely posting about game theory. -

That's one heck of a tunnel you got going there. Just like Boonskiies tunnel of me in Mini 1755. Guess what -- we were both town. Stop with your stupid Keyser tunnel!

15. In 854, Keyser is giving his opinion on our lynch possibilities & is asking when a roleclaim should occur. -

Again, I see town-Keyser trying to work things out with town & trying to get stuff done AS A TEAM. I don't see scum Keyser making an empty post about wagons.

[Ircher]

You won't leave me alive that long and we both know that.

If I catch you, it has to be D1.

I'm glad we both agree that Guy is scum though, that's certainly a direction I'm looking at going in.

I wouldn't have a problem with a GF lynch....

Perhaps we should lynch GF today -- I think you (collectively) need another day to sort out Keyser.

[Ircher]

The scum team is obviously: GuyFawkes, Titus, Massive

[GuyFawkes]

I want to hear people's thoughts on Massive. I am not liking how the slot thinks that I am scum when that is 100% pre-flip assoc.

@BBT I like your catchup. It looks a lot better than the other half of your posts. But do me a favor & read those spoilers. That tells you a lot aboyt my current status.

I think I'd be more ok with Massive lynch now, I must admit I am quite impressed with his catchup. Maybe he really didn't have time for the thread, idk. Def. mot same vibe as his earlier posts
VOTE: Massive

Ircher, what did you like about BBT's catchup?

[Keyser Söze]

you guys haven't lynched keyser yet?

If you haven't caught up yet, we are lynching scum today. I see it clearly now, scum wanted an unopposed BBT vs Keysor fight/miss-lynch going into deadline. Activity was low. But then BBT and I announce that we are open to other lynches. Everyone suddenly comes alive. People have started freaking out: "Wait what, we're not lynching Keysor who is prob/obv-town?!?". Still they ignore the reads of others who have a town read of me. That is exactly what has happened.

You don't get to say "you guys haven't lynched X yet" if you haven't provided one scum alignment indicative argument to back it up. Your ISO is weak, so you're likely be dealt with today or tomorrow anyway. You haven't shown any sign of finding/sorting town/scum throughout the whole game. I would love to see a reads-list from you.

[Keyser Söze]

That GuyFawkes push....

Discuss my points, don't do what you just did if you're town. It looks very bad.

What's your read of GuyFawkes?

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Mini 1769 - D1 #4

1. I don't think we're convinced on the KS is town idea (ie, those on the wagons), so I'm gonna try to guage some of Keyser's posts to see if they are truly "empty" as the scum-Keyser case claims.

2. Let's start with 809: Keyser is asking KT how he views the other players defending Keyser in terms of his belief that scum will WK scum as losing scum makes scum more likely to lose. -

Tell me what is empty about this post -- Keyser is asking KT a question that basically amounts to a meta question. What I think KS is aiming for here is an answer that will help Keyser better guage Kain's experience, beliefs, and playstyle. The first step to determining if a player is scum is imo learning how they play.

3. Thor suggests in 811 for us to hop onto the Keyser wagon despite having 3 days left. -

Confirmation bias? Definitely. Scum? Probably not. Bad Town? High chance. @Thor -- Stop with your petty little arguments/tunnel on Keyser and start giving your thoughts on other players; in fact, I have no idea where you stand on people such as myself, Boon, pops, and GuyFawkes cuz you're so focused on Keyser.

4. 815 - Keyser once again askes Thor for his stance on BBT. -

Again, this isn't empty posting. Keyser is directly reasking a question Thor has decided to ignore in his *self-righteousness* - Keyser goal in asking this question is trying to guage Thor's reads on everyone besides Keyser. Knowing other people's reads and thoughts is a truly tremendous help in deciphering the puzzle; aka, Keyser is asking for utmost important info.

5. Pops says in 821 that only Keyser seems to be enjoying the game. -

While almost certainly a joke like your replace out joke, it feels a bit... weird to say. Also, who's to say the rest of us aren't having fun?

6. 822 and 823 have no impact on the game, so certainly they must be empty posts! -

Nah, wouldn't call that empty posting but more like having fun.

7. 833 - BBT states "can't convince scum I'm town" -

This employs two logical fallancies: ORLYScum and Confirmation Bias. First, let's discuss confirmation bias -- it's when you express a strong read on a person generally without unbiased facts to back it up. You also conduct your tunnel at the ignorance of everything else. Then, let's discuss ORLYScum which is when you disregard what a oerson simply because they're scum. This is a logical fallancy, as you are using your subjective view to try to discredit your target's thoughts regadless of the validity of any claims. Neither of these are neccessary alignment-indicative by themselves though.

10. Let's take 840 as another example. -

So this is a quote response, so my numbers correspond with the quotes in order:

1. BBT states he'll just give his thoughts. - Keyser responds "Deal" as in he's ok ith that. Unlike... let's see...

Thor

, Keyser understands that sometimes you must compromise. Anyway, I think this is what Keyser and all of us on BBT's wagon wanted in the first place -- For BBT to express his thoughts this game aside from his fairly poorly supported Keyser scumread.

2. Thor has suggested Keyser isn't reading, and Keyser responds by stating he is, and the perceived not reading is simply disagreeing -- Not empty posting, this is Keyser offering another outlook on the situation to Thor (who cannot seem to understand that Mafia is a.... TEAM GAME....). This is def. what I thought when Thor made that comment.

3. No comment

4. Keyser points out that Thor keeps saying he scumreads Keyser, yet has yet to provide a logical reason why. I'll let you be the judge on this one, but my opinion is it's a completely fair argument.

5. Keyser explains his perspective on issues and why he thinks people should express their reads. - Again, Keyser is actively trying to get input from the rest of you, so he can discern people's stances better. Keyser is also admitting that he COULD BE WRONG (*stares at Thor*) and that's why he wants to hear other people's opinions. That's town-motivated imo.

6. Another fun/joke comment. Aka, non alignment indicative.

11. Boon apparently is leaning towards scum-Ircher in 844 -

I am interested in hearing what the case against me is,

excluding any and all pre-flip associations with Keyser

12. Boon says I sheeped everywhere in Mini 1755 in 849 -

Not true! I spent a good amount of time D5 making my opinions as well as D1 and the start of D2. Doing note posts and IO reads are not sheeping. But, if you are gonna meta-dive me, check my wiki page.

13. 852 - Main argument from Thor's POV regarding my lynch is *pre-flip association with Keyser* -

My two-cents -- For one who is normally found as an easy ML by scum, I'm not feeling it this game. I just don't get why people are even toying with the possibility of scum Ircher when there is only pre-flip association case to look at.

14. 853 by Thor states Keyser isn't reading and is merely posting about game theory. -

That's one heck of a tunnel you got going there. Just like Boonskiies tunnel of me in Mini 1755. Guess what -- we were both town. Stop with your stupid Keyser tunnel!

15. In 854, Keyser is giving his opinion on our lynch possibilities & is asking when a roleclaim should occur. -

Again, I see town-Keyser trying to work things out with town & trying to get stuff done AS A TEAM. I don't see scum Keyser making an empty post about wagons.

Yup, Ircher's town-read of me is spot on. He has basically just unpicked my fucking head. I'd like to see him alive. I now want him to show the same clarity and effort with a scum-read (which is a harder case to put together for both town and scum).

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: TTH

Because iydugxutsyffxichuhxugxyc

Will hammer whatever lynch the group decides. It'll hit town. That's the shitty site meta though.

Bad vote.
Bad timing.
Where's the catchup Titus? We've been very patient so far.

Show me why you voted TTH. An RVS vote this late sends shivers down my spine.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Reads V1.0

Would not vote, would not lynch:

Aquanim
TellTaleHeart

Would need a good argument to vote here:

Thor665-mn
Slandaar
popsofctown

Leaning positive, but still not a firm read:

Titus-Golden Robster
massive

------------------------------------------<<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP:

Ircher-OceanWind

Bad through play, not town reading:

KainTepes
Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade
BlueBloodedToffee

------------------------------------------------<<< line of comfort

Need to sort ASAP, growingly unconvinced:

massive
KainTepes
Titus-Golden Robster

Bad through play, not town reading:

Boonskies-Phoenix Wright

Would vote, would lynch:

GuyFawkes-Masquerade

[Thor665]

I want to hear people's thoughts on Massive. I am not liking how the slot thinks that I am scum when that is 100% pre-flip assoc.

He is hardly unique in his associative soaked case - do you not see the others, or just find them less objectionable?

He didn't. I said that. BBT is the centerpiece of games when he's active. He doesn't stop talking. So much growth from that first game we played together, BBT. <3

Why do you like BBT so much as a person/player?
You're posting kind of generic 'rah-rah' stuff about him on a semi-regular, and I'm not sure why.

VOTE: TTH

Because iydugxutsyffxichuhxugxyc

Will hammer whatever lynch the group decides. It'll hit town. That's the Smurfy site meta though.

Your solution to the site meta is to put out an empty vote and offer to lynch whomever?
...if the site meta is bad, this is fitting right in with it, yeah?

[Slandaar]

Perhaps we should lynch GF today -- I think

you

(collectively) need another day to sort out Keyser.

I hate the use of you here.

You are not a part of the collective?

[Slandaar]

associative soaked case

If you are referring to me my cases are not posted.

[Slandaar]

I'm not town reading Guy off of his own actions. He's a scum fuck. But Day 1 it's really easy to seem like a scum fuck. He's not someone I'd like to Day 1 lynch; no info really comes from that in the chance he wouldn't flip scum. Keyser has a good chance of flipping scum, and if he flipped town, there are loads of info tells.

I don't remember you being an info lynch guy. My memory is bad sometimes though.

Show me a game where you have used info lynch as part of your reasoning as town to choose one target over another.

I suggest everyone makes sure he does this.

[Thor665]

associative soaked case

If you are referring to me my cases are not posted.

Don't worry, I am well aware of your contribution thus far.

[Thor665]

I'm not town reading Guy off of his own actions. He's a scum fuck. But Day 1 it's really easy to seem like a scum fuck. He's not someone I'd like to Day 1 lynch; no info really comes from that in the chance he wouldn't flip scum. Keyser has a good chance of flipping scum, and if he flipped town, there are loads of info tells.

I don't remember you being an info lynch guy. My memory is bad sometimes though.

Show me a game where you have used info lynch as part of your reasoning as town to choose one target over another.

I suggest everyone makes sure he does this.

I am suggesting PL Pisskop.

He isn't contributing much and refuses to be civil or make decent, constructive posts. Instead, he keeps trolling everyone and making the game unpleasant. If he doesn't get replaced, I strongly sugges Policy Lynching him.

Don't consider PL without any information coming out of it. Like, what would the point of PL be in this case? We would get absolutely no information, we would be down another townie in the night phase, possibly a PR. This does nothing but help scum, especially at that point in the day.

Done.
Have you ever played with Boon before?
He comments about info all the time.

[Slandaar]

Look at my extensive ISO on KainTepes.

If it isn't on there we can add it now.

"Unsupported/unexplained scum read #35"

I find your scumhunting lacklustre. I make an insanely strong point and you don't seem to realize.

You may think Kain's reasoning isn't good but most of his arguments (all -1) are his. Thus this argument stands out.

[Keyser Söze]

I have a paranoia of TTH, but I don't want to delve into that right now.

Nothing she's doing is scummy to me or anything. I actually like her input

. I'm just....aaah. I never know how to deal with her.

THERE IS PROBABLY 2 SCUM WITHIN THIS GROUP:

KEYser, Aquanim, OCEANWIND and TELL TALE HEART....

It's probably Keyser and TTH

.

Please can you explain how you can hold both positions within 2 posts of eachother. I could understand a change of read, but the 2 comments contradict eachother.

[Slandaar]

Done.
Have you ever played with Boon before?
He comments about info all the time.

Sorry I am picky. Get another one where he is choosing scum over scum.

PL is different.

[Slandaar]

I don't want to lynch Blue.

Am off for a bit.

[Keyser Söze]

Look at my extensive ISO on KainTepes.

If it isn't on there we can add it now.

"Unsupported/unexplained scum read #35"

I find your scumhunting lacklustre. I make an insanely strong point and you don't seem to realize.

You may think Kain's reasoning isn't good but most of his arguments (all -1) are his. Thus this argument stands out.

Why aren't you voting KainTepes then, Slandaar?

My "lacklustre" scumhunting tells me not to vote KainTepes. Your "insanely strong point"/'stand out argument' has led you to what action/conclusion?

Your "insanely strong point"/'stand out argument' has moved you to...

what

may I ask?

Time to reveal your cards.

Enough fence-sitting mate, present your 3 "strong" scum cases now. We are fast approaching deadline, might I add.