Micro 594: One Night Ultimate Werewolf 5 (Game over)

[podoboq]

@lane, It's also worth noting that if you're telling the truth, I know a confirmed basic villager, because directly after you stole the basic villager card, I Troublemade it to another player.

[vettrock]

Important to note the doppletrouble switches before you correct?

Yes, if the doppleganger becomes a troublemaker(or any other role, their switch or action happens before any other actions.)
Previous iterations of the game on this site:

game 1
town won

game 2
werewolf won

Game 3
werewolf won

Game 4
Town won.

[podoboq]

@vettrock Reading Game 4 now. I have a few questions:

How do you play if all Werewolves are buried?
How do you play if all Werewolves and Minion are buried?

The rules in the physical copy state that if there are no members of the Werewolf team in the village, the town must agree (unanimously) to nolynch in order to win. In the case of the Minion, the town can only win by killing the Minion (although the Minion does not get the benefit of the lone wolf rule, and cannot look at a center card.) I've house-ruled a lot of this game, though, and these rules are always the most discussed.

I'd just like confirmation on what ruleset we're playing with before we move further.

[lane0168]

@lane, It's also worth noting that if you're telling the truth, I know a confirmed basic villager, because directly after you stole the basic villager card, I Troublemade it to another player.

I'm not telling everything til we get all roles out there in the open. Then we will do actions, and I'll claim who I robbed, confirming their card, first if you want me to

[lane0168]

I want to eliminate the chance of wolves planning some farce, so before we poke around, let's get the claims out there. Already feels like Lowell is lying lol

[podoboq]

@lane, It's also worth noting that if you're telling the truth, I know a confirmed basic villager, because directly after you stole the basic villager card, I Troublemade it to another player.

I'm not telling everything til we get all roles out there in the open. Then we will do actions, and I'll claim who I robbed, confirming their card, first if you want me to

I understand this logic, and it's totally understandable that you would have this position as Robber who stole another Villager card. The problem is that once all players have claimed a role, and no counterclaims have happened, there is no pressure on you. You can claim that you robbed any player, like myself, and confirm my role, and the village believes you. You can make that claim, even though you actually robbed a Werewolf.

After claims, there is no way for us to actually know if you're lying. We need you to tell us who you robbed, and what role they had (which you already told us) so that player can confirm that you're telling the truth. Otherwise, there will always be the chance that you stole a Werewolf and lied to us.

[lane0168]

I see your point, but I'm not telling you, especially considering all I'm doing is confirming 1 town. I don't have reason to lie even if I did pick werewolf, considering my card was switched. So I'm waiting for claims

[vettrock]

@vettrock Reading Game 4 now. I have a few questions:

How do you play if all Werewolves are buried?
How do you play if all Werewolves and Minion are buried?

The rules in the physical copy state that if there are no members of the Werewolf team in the village, the town must agree (unanimously) to nolynch in order to win. In the case of the Minion, the town can only win by killing the Minion (although the Minion does not get the benefit of the lone wolf rule, and cannot look at a center card.) I've house-ruled a lot of this game, though, and these rules are always the most discussed.

I'd just like confirmation on what ruleset we're playing with before we move further.

re-roll if there is not at least one werewolf.

[podoboq]

You probably want to read the old "one night ultimate werewolf" games to get a feel for things, lowell. a few of them are in my wiki.

Claiming helps town a lot in terms of finding things. I believe the order we should go by is:

1. robber self claims but does not say who they stole from. Robber instead picks who should popcorn claim next (read last running of this to see why thats a good idea)
2. Everybody proceeds to popcorn claim until everyone has claimed

what they started as

3. If we got 2 seers, 2 aprentices, 2 whatevers claimed, they give results here
4. Robber says who they stole from
5. Apprentice seer says what they saw
6. normal seer says what they saw
7. Troubles claim what they did (trouble should say that they traded robber and someone else whether its true or not. See last game as why this is a good idea)
8. robber and who trouble switched them with, reclaim
9. troubles reclaim
10. If trouble really switched someone else those two parties should reclaim

Since this is first game with a doppleganger and their action appears to occur first in rules, i am leaning toward them claiming who they copied before the robber claims result and dg claiming what they did as a copy...not sure when (thoughts?).

feel free to give opinion and criticize. I'd rather not be the guy in charge of things, since I worry how I took charge of the last game may have effected the fun of others.

To see last game go here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=64968

Still reading the last game (it will take me a while, because I've had a few beers (the Pacers v Celtics game was really close, OK!)), but I wanted to tackle this schedule now that I'm home.

1. robber self claims but does not say who they stole from. Robber instead picks who should popcorn claim next (read last running of this to see why thats a good idea)

Seems good so far. I'll look into the logic in the future, but as of now, I have no problem with the Robber claiming first, as they are arguable the most important role.

2. Everybody proceeds to popcorn claim until everyone has claimed

what they started as

OK, here we get complicated. We have 3 basic villagers. I mentioned it before, but let me dive into the logic a little more here. Imagine six people claim basic villager. That's basically the max. It assumes that no basic villagers are buried, no Werewolves are buried, and the Minion isn't buried. That leaves us with a 3v3 chance to guess who's lying, and if we lynch the Minion, we still lose. That's 33% odds to win the game.

3. If we got 2 seers, 2 aprentices, 2 whatevers claimed, they give results here

I agree with asking people to actually claim what information they gained before we move forward, but let's talk about some of these circumstances. Everybody has already claimed. The two seers have easy claims to make. "I saw that Player A was the Insomniac, which they already claimed." Apprentice Seer? "Well I saw a Werewolf in the center." There's no opportunity to catch somebody in a lie here.

4. Robber says who they stole from

This needs to happen BEFORE people claim their role, and the Robber needs to say what that player's role was first, so that we know they actually DID rob that player.

5. Apprentice seer says what they saw

Everybody already claimed a role. They can just say they saw something else in the center.

6. normal seer says what they saw

Same here. No new information really comes out.

7. Troubles claim what they did (trouble should say that they traded robber and someone else whether its true or not. See last game as why this is a good idea)

HERE'S THE BIG PROBLEM

If we agree to this schedule, and I say I switched lane, he has no reason to believe me, because we've agreed that I am required to say that I switched lane anyway. He won't provide any new information, because he can continue to assume that's a lie (because I'm straight up being told by the schedule to lie and say I switched lane even if that's untrue.)

8. robber and who trouble switched them with, reclaim

They'll just claim they're the same thing, because we've established that I'm supposed to lie at this point.

9. troubles reclaim
10. If trouble really switched someone else those two parties should reclaim

Functionally, these would happen in the same phase, and it's too late at this point. Troublemakers gain information by forcing people to come forth with full information, only to reveal that the Troublemaker never switched them in the first place. If we follow a schedule, the Troublemaker(s) don't have that power, and don't gain that information for the village.


This schedule doesn't make me think you're scum. I just think it's wrong. You can't break this game down into a process like this. I'll keep reading the last game, but the win seems to have come from a terrible claim from the Werewolf, not from the schedule working the way it's supposed too.

[Fire Starter]

I think you're both town. Yay.
Nothing to add until claims finish.

[podoboq]

I see your point, but I'm not telling you, especially considering all I'm doing is confirming 1 town.

More than anything else, you confirm YOU. That's what we're trying to accomplish here. If you are unwilling to do that, no matter what you claim in the future, I will always question the validity of your claim.

I don't have reason to lie even if I did pick werewolf, considering my card was switched. So I'm waiting for claims

You're right, but it's possible that you don't know that. Troublemakers lie often, and it'd be safe of you to assume that I didn't actually switch you. For what it matters, I DID switch you, but it's totally reasonable of you, even correct of you, to assume that's a gambit on my part.

[lane0168]

I think you're both town. Yay.
Nothing to add until claims finish.

Odd...

[Alexcellent]

Hi all. Have played One Night a bunch of times IRL, but this is my first time playing on site.
Also, Apprentice Seer here, but I won't reveal my findings yet.
I think Lane should say who he robbed from and Podo say who he swapped, then maybe who Lane robbed from can claim?

[Alexcellent]

I want to eliminate the chance of wolves planning some farce, so before we poke around, let's get the claims out there.

Already feels like Lowell is lying lol

Why?

[podoboq]

Hi all. Have played One Night a bunch of times IRL, but this is my first time playing on site.
Also, Apprentice Seer here, but I won't reveal my findings yet.
I think Lane should say who he robbed from and Podo say who he swapped, then maybe who Lane robbed from can claim?

All I'll say is that I swapped Lane with somebody. Information on that other player will have to wait until lane comes forward with WHO the basic villager is who he robbed.

[3dicerolling]

Well, for some reason the game start pm didn't show up in new messages.

VOTE: podoboq

He is lying because I AM the troublemaker. I'm not claiming swaps yet, but when the night started, I was the troublemaker.

[lane0168]

I'm not telling you before we get all the claims out. Sorry, but I'm not. I've told you enough already, I should've just waited for all the claims. But I wanted to get one bit of information out.

[lane0168]

So, now we have 3 Troublemakers, one who doesn't understand the game concept. And 2 that are what, scum partners?

[Alexcellent]

Well, for some reason the game start pm didn't show up in new messages.

VOTE: podoboq

He is lying because I AM the troublemaker. I'm not claiming swaps yet, but when the night started, I was the troublemaker.

This is interesting. The doppelganger needs to confirm this right?

[3dicerolling]

So, now we have 3 Troublemakers, one who doesn't understand the game concept. And 2 that are what, scum partners?

I understand game concepts?

[podoboq]

I'm not telling you before we get all the claims out. Sorry, but I'm not. I've told you enough already, I should've just waited for all the claims. But I wanted to get one bit of information out.

That's understandable. I'm just letting you know my thought process, and the natural consequence of that. I'm biased against Robbers, because I've had too many games screwed over as town by an unchecked Robber.

Well, for some reason the game start pm didn't show up in new messages.

VOTE: podoboq

He is lying because I AM the troublemaker. I'm not claiming swaps yet, but when the night started, I was the troublemaker.

VOTE: 3dicerolling

Doppleganger?

[podoboq]

So, now we have 3 Troublemakers, one who doesn't understand the game concept. And 2 that are what, scum partners?

Not sure who that was directed at, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that any of us don't understand game concepts. More importantly, I wouldn't draw the conclusion that the other two are scum partners. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Would you mind walking us through that logic?

[lane0168]

Shos didn't confirm anything yet, so nevermind.

[lane0168]

There are no votes except for night fall in this game

[lane0168]

Podo, why are you voting 3dice, with the comment "doppelganger?"