Mini 1781: Plotinus Mafia: Game Over

[Ircher]

Hello,. Catchup should take no time!

Pedit: I will not confirm nor deny that. (And what an idiot he is if he did that!)

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1781 - Catchup Post

1. So, Davsto has an interesting entrance that aims to compile a list of scum roles Plotinus has had in the past. -

That isn't a bad idea tbh.

2. Davsto's claim -

First of all, if Davsto was a PR; what an idiotic move that was! But, fyi, I am neither confirming nor disputing the claim.

3. Gorkington states he decided to suffer for the sake of my friends -

Half of me just wants to cry out "Scum" when I read this but that be too obvious a scumtell; scum tend to be better than that. So this is in actuality -

Null-Indicative

4. Gork says Davsto's replacement can get a huge dose of paranoi for that entrance -

Eh.... I'm not seeing that tbh. Did you even stop to consider the motives for his posts; while it could be scum-motivated; there's an equal chance that it is town-motivated, so no dice. You're just trying to start mislynches on what amounts to absolutely nothing. -

Scum-Indicative

5. What appears to be an EXTREME overreaction to Fire's entrance -

This just reads scum all over, yet once again, I go back to my previous argument. -

Null-Indicative

6.

I agree with Not Mafia's 128. Also -

Null-Town Indicative

7. 133 - Just..... No.......

Spoiler stuff from me is required reading. No saying you missed something because it was in spoilers -- this is your warning.

Coincidentally, I'm modding Mini 1782, so if I ever write that, that's most likely why and more than likely it is supposed to go here.

With that, I'll start here:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gork

[Ircher]

The "Ask yourself what Plotinus would do" part.

[Ircher]

why were half of your points about the slot you replaced.
silly goose.

And that's a problem because?

The person I replaced did the most interesting stuff, that's all.

[Ircher]

vote: fire assassin

your first mistake.
was.
getting my attention.

Let's see: RVS-ish vote.. Boring!

hi everyone.
i decided to suffer for the sake of my friends.

p-edit: lets stop being in rvs now.
fire assassin wagon please.

I already comment on the suffering part.

xkfyu wagon would also be acceptable based on two posts ive read this page.
choo choo chooose.

p-edit: yeah. i like either vote.

Please cite the posts you dislike...

So you think we should be pushing Davsto because he did a weird opening?

nope.

Why you not voting them?

irrelephant.

your nahdiahydra push is also unconvincingly undedicated.
what happened to your conviction???!?!:

hi everyone.
i decided to

suffer for the sake of my friends

.

p-edit: lets stop being in rvs now.
fire assassin wagon please.

I think this suggests you got a mafia role card.

I think Fire brought up a good point by the fact you said I'd get extreme paranoi because of Davsto's weird opening, yet you never act upon it or elaborate.

fire assassin.
are you.
an alt?

if yes you should be ashamed, only cowards hide behind a mask.
but you should also tell me.

Ans this is relevant because? Also, people can do what they want; if they want to use an alt, so be it; it's not your place to criticize.

hey nahdia.
even if fire is possibly scum.
being a jerk is uncool.

I can agree here, but not AI.

hi not_mafia.
how are you today.

RVS banter.

Fire Assassin you've made me MAD. if you keep saying ew and acting like a cranky 5 year old, I'm going to start treating you like one

you will probably get treated worse if you go down this route.

And again, not AI

hey nahdia.
i recently stopped playing mafia because people made games about drama.

how about.
you dont.

And more not AI.

Gorkington, why you think Not Mafia is town lean?

he seems like it.

hope that isnt troublesome.

Elaborate please & ty

Hi Gorkington, I'm good, how are you?

im alright.
hoping it stays that way yknow

want to vote fire assassin with me for arbitrary points/want to accept me buddying you right now?

Wth is this?!

aw but he seems like page 1 lynchbait that isnt gonna shake things loose.

Definitely. I disapprove of the wagon as it stands. Not for AI reasons; simply cuz its RVS but people stick to stuff.

uninvested early posting is hard to read.

True..... I also hate lurkers......

town and scum can both be lynchbait.
smudger's opening was awkward and easy to latch onto.
hes not saying much now and probably wont react until momentum has fizzled.

p-edit: pressure is only useful if people are here to be pressured by it, is a sexy point that i stand by earlygame.

No comment

you win this time.

Not AI

why were half of your points about the slot you replaced.
silly goose.

I just told you why. And that's not silly in a 6p game full of RVS banter.

if fire assassin is scum, odds of ircher being scum goes up slightly via my primal gut instinct.

And this makes sense because? Stop giving shallow reads.

i disagree and that focus is borderline boring.
dissect me.
i dare you.
maybe i'll even talk about my davsto comment in more detail if you impress me.

Nope, still rather boring. If anything, you simply strengthened my scumread of you.

[Ircher]

Hi! Ether here. Aeronaut and I are running this now, not Yimmy. Sorry for the delays!

---

Complete Playerlist

1. Minsc and Boo (Radja + Titus hydra)
   Ircher
   (replaces Davsto)
   
   Fire Assassin
   Iecerint
   Maruchan
   Gorkington
   Not_Mafia
   androgybee (beeboy + Nahdia hydra)
   Smudger
   Xkfyu
   Roshar
   ActionDan
   Aristophanes
   * = prodded

I don't know too many of you. Radja modded Newbie 1682 which I was in, and Titus was in Mini 1769 which I replaced into D1. Mini 1763 recently finished -- I played with Not_Mafia there, and fyi: if we have any trace of that sort of nonsense that when on in that thread, I'm replacing out. So, pls, no nonsensical posts and/or irrelevant hangman. Smudger was also in N1682, but he was NK N1 and didn't post a lot. And that's everyone I know out of this playlist.

[Ircher]

also ether, im very self-conscious about how close i am to being lynched right now.
can i request that fire assassin's vote be moved to its rightful place on nahdia hydra? it makes me nervous being L-5 :S

Srsly, pls dont make me metadive you. This just sounds so noobish & scummy.

[Ircher]

meh, ircher is maybe town for the fervor and rigorous nature of last post.

p-edit: actually yeah ircher can be in the townpile.

also if im being frustrating, its probably for a reason.

I'm always town and I'm almost always mislynched . I've yet to play a single scumgame

Being town, esp, VT, all the time gets SO boring.... And then you have those lurkers who are impossible to lynch....l

[Ircher]

@xk, im getting bored with my own shtick. tell me about the three players in this game that you feel most confident about in either alignment direction.

I think androgyBee is probably town.

I was thinking that Davsto was town before he replaced out, but I'm more null on that slot now. I didn't really like how Ircher talked about almost nothing but his slot when he got here and I think his reasoning for voting you was pretty weak.

However, Maruchan's serious overstatement of your paranoia (which was clearly sarcasm) about being voted is my biggest concern right now.

UNVOTE: Smudger

VOTE: Maruchan

Did you miss my ISO of Gorkington? It seems like it.

[Ircher]

Gorkington still has failed to expand on his current reads....

[Ircher]

Alright, I'll take you up on your offer and vote him (until he responds to the above), but I do not want to lynch him yet.

VOTE: Fire

[Ircher]

No, I'm not. I don't do drugs.

[Ircher]

Why dont you go read the case and answer it.

Rather than trying to insult me.

[Ircher]

Hi Roshar. Hopefully I'll get to learn how you play here!

[Ircher]

Anyone care to sum up what I missed? I've been VERY busy.

[Ircher]

Hi guys.

You matter to god.

But I haven't read anything. :[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Go read!

[Ircher]

I swear, Ether must have some sort of pagetopping macro.

[Ircher]

There's just no way Ether could've submitted that post less than a second after I submitted mine.

And this isn't the first time either.

[Ircher]

because i want meta.
i want it.
and i cant have it.

*frothing*

I rather avoid meta if all possible.

Too bad. I'll probably bring it up eventually.

[Ircher]

okay fire assassin you get some homework.
i want a readslist.
and i want you to give one sentence explanations for each read.
if you dont do this then you get to be the day one lynch.

Umm... Remind me what the

lynching

case was again?

My vote is for pressure:

UNVOTE: Fire

[Ether]

so heres fire assassin in a nutshell and why you should vote for him.
i) opening vote is on me.
starts as RVS.
he then tries to weirdly justify it with easy reasoning.
not a big deal, but it gave me gutfeels that he felt nervous about sitting on an unexplained vote, which feels scummy in my heart.

ii) transition onto nahdia/beeboy hydra is wonky and easy. he abandons the vote on me for what amounts to "these posts look weird" which is meh. what bothers me is that it feels like hes registered that im not an easy push at this point. specifics here being:

I find this strange you have so many reads this early into the game.
I guess they are mostly 'leans' so, not really strong so its w/e.

this is his follow-up to me ignoring his questions.
where other people are prickled by me doing this, he backs off, hedges and waffles. it just doesnt seem like a real genuine "im trying to figure out who scum is"-reaction and instead just kind of looks to me like "how do i push someone and not get flack for it here/how do i explain what ive done so far in a way that wont get me in trouble?"

You realize your hostility isn't going to help anyone read you right? Its all AtE, which can be either alignment. I am willing to have a conversation with you, but if all your going to do is throw emotional posts like this, we can't have a discussion and I will have to ignore you.

this does not look like a genuine reaction to someone hes voting/calling scummy.

Why does this sound like you are lining up both associations and lynches before we even have a single flip. This is disgusting on so many levels, its more likely to come from bad town than scum though.

the entire mindset of this post just screams to me of scum not knowing how to deal with someone hardpushing them for reasons that they dont understand.

im struggling a little trying to articulate exactly why this post is bothering me so much. i think its mostly that i cant see the town incentive in simultaneously hedging on calling me scummy/calling me bad town to discredit me without committing to pushing me. im kind of hoping if i draw attention to it, someone smarter than me will look at it and see what im seeing and put it into real words.

part of what also bugs me about this, is that he says "time to find scum!", calls me bad town, and then goes on to basically ask me a bunch of questions. does not feel like genuine scumhunting methinks.

there you go. having all of that time to make up these reasons really helped. thanks for letting me stall ircher.

Finally going to address this. Not breaking up quote just going in numbers...hope that won't confuse.

1) So you are just calling me weird. That isn't news to me. Meh

1. Weird isn't necessarily alignment-indicative, so ok here.

2) You are not a easy push? I didn't realize this as all. Call me arrogant, but I think I can push whoever if I was scum. With different levels of success but still I could push you if I wanted to, but I was thinking I had good portion of you that I didn't need to look more at you. Your responses as of late have registered you as one my strongest town reads. Which I find funny.

2. This response just feels weird, but I'm gonna have to say null again here.

3) I usually don't pressure people to answer my questions. If I do, I am interested if not I am genuinely just trying to create discussion or legitimately don't care. Glad you picked up on the last part, but me not trying to solve the game is different.

3. A meta thing in other words? If so, then null.

4) How does it not look legitimate? They threw AtE at me, I still have them at null for it. The reaction was pretty over the top for them, but I could see it from either alignment. I want to go away from reading people by emotions, which is kind of my strong suit, going to try see reason based or some people call mechanical reads.

4. Another quirky behavior from you, but once again, appears to be a meta thing (actually, this suggests you are an alt).

5) So you don't know how to put what you saw into words. Great. Don't know how this makes me scum, but again another great town tell.

And, another null thing.

If this is all there is on me, I pray for the towns future.

Yeah, I think I'm back to Gork -- The case was half-fledged (I merely skimmed it when I joined the bandwagon) and everything Fire said in response makes all the points null.
VOTE: Gorkington

Tag fixed.

[Ircher]

^ ~Nahdia

also im kind of wishy-washy on my Xkfyu read tbh. i didn't out it since i wanted to talk it over with my other head but basically Xkfyu felt kind of different here from elsewhere ive played with him (kind of more jovial/peppy?) and i was sort of thinking it might be kind of an overcompensation for him not wanting to play scum so i kind of had a scumread on him? but catching up i did actually like his posts since i tended to agree with the things he was saying. but it's possible the points were really obvious ones to make. idk. wary of that slot in particular. just wanted to tack this one cuz it didn't really have any place in the catchup post

~Nahdia

I LOVE playing scum, by the way.

Are you loving this game?

I am.

Scumclaim! Lol.

[Ircher]

like seriously, im driving the biggest wagon in the game right now with the best-made case. tomorrow i'll pick at fire's response to it. and then i'll probably drive the game some more. does it bother you that youre impressively uninfluential when youre trying so hard while a buffoon who doesnt use proper grammar and posts sarcastically 90% of the time is?

That case was actually rather awful. I literally thought it would be decent and didnt bother to check the evidence.

[Ircher]

is that self-assured bad-old-town or scum though not-maf? because the vitriol reads more like wrong than intentional to me.
also, in other news, aristo is slightly leaning town.
itd be awesome if this turned into a POE game.

PoE is great, but dont trust your gut to be right 100% of the time.

[Ircher]

1) So you are just calling me weird. That isn't news to me. Meh
2) You are not a easy push? I didn't realize this as all. Call me arrogant, but I think I can push whoever if I was scum. With different levels of success but still I could push you if I wanted to, but I was thinking I had good portion of you that I didn't need to look more at you. Your responses as of late have registered you as one my strongest town reads. Which I find funny.
3) I usually don't pressure people to answer my questions. If I do, I am interested if not I am genuinely just trying to create discussion or legitimately don't care. Glad you picked up on the last part, but me not trying to solve the game is different.
4) How does it not look legitimate? They threw AtE at me, I still have them at null for it. The reaction was pretty over the top for them, but I could see it from either alignment. I want to go away from reading people by emotions, which is kind of my strong suit, going to try see reason based or some people call mechanical reads.
5) So you don't know how to put what you saw into words. Great. Don't know how this makes me scum, but again another great town tell.

this is probably the first and last time i will address a point wall, especially when it appears that youre more interested in attacking semantics over the nice juicy details of what i was talking about here.
dont really care about first three points. only thing i will say is that me saying im hard to push is probably admittedly just me being arrogant so that point was probably silly.
four is pretty bah. if youre voting for someone, it doesnt seem real that your response to them getting angry at you didnt have any measure of skepticism. like your response was 100% believing them and trying to defuse their anger. which is fair, but i think its more likely that youre scum having trouble dealing with the emotions than town in that reaction. like, i get that youve got this whole "im mechanically analyzing people"-thing going here, but i just dont believe it?
and five is actively awful. i put it into words and made other coherent points based around it, such as the fact that your supposed "scumhunting" was just asking me questions despite me being one of your biggest townreads.
sorry bub.
not convinced.

1. Is your case alignment-indicative? Not really.
2. Was the rebuttal alignment-indicative? Not really.
3. What's the motive behind Fire's posts? What evidence shows this motive?
4. What's the motive behind Gork's posts? What evidence shows this motive?
5. Is questioning scummy? No.
6. Is playing naturally scummy? No.
7. Is there another plausible explanation for the behavior? Almost always.

For future reference, consider questions like the above. You obviously failed to do so in your case and continue to be ignorant.

Reads should be 85% objective and 15% subjective imo.

[Ircher]

Why are you giving your scumread play advice?

So he improves.

Plus some of this stuff strengthen my scumread.

[Ircher]

Why?

Cuz you are afraid of a quicklynch or cuz of something else?

[Ircher]

Reads should be 85% objective and 15% subjective imo.

what happens if fire assassin flips scum?
do you bow down to my greatness?
and call me your master?

No. I do things my way.

[Ircher]

Then dont post a case that is 100% null indicative.

[Ircher]

You and smudger, Ircher is my biggest townread

So you just thin Ircher is way off base then.....
I don't know how you connect Ircher being town to being more confident in this being a scum lynch.....

Those are weird connections.

I can buy it actually.

[Ircher]

Gorkington still has failed to respond to any question or request posed to him regarding his reads or changes of his reads, and just continues attempting to make snide humor comments, that fail to provide humor.

oooo did you want me to double down on my cheeky bullshit? because you ignoring me actually giving content in the form of a case to continue this hilarious tirade against me having fun in this game is just amazing and you really are just incentivizing me at this point.

At the point in my read through I made that comment your case had not yet been made, and you still have avoided even acknowledging me or XK asking you about your reads on us. You've continued to blatantly ignore that.

like seriously, im driving the biggest wagon in the game right now with the best-made case. tomorrow i'll pick at fire's response to it. and then i'll probably drive the game some more. does it bother you that youre impressively uninfluential when youre trying so hard while a buffoon who doesnt use proper grammar and posts sarcastically 90% of the time is?

That case was actually rather awful. I literally thought it would be decent and didnt bother to check the evidence.

Literally how is this town play.

"Oh I was too lazy to read the first case of the game ,but since it was the first case of the game, hey, I'll hop on it. BANDWAGGON AHOY".

THAT IS NOT TOWN PLAY.

I am sorry to tell you this, but people sheep wagons for awful reasoning all the time, and its often town. Scum sometimes do it, but usually they are worried about looking bad.

Is it pro town behavior to ignore the actual case? No
Is it anti town? Hell yes.

Is he scum? Id say I think he is trying to solve the game so that reads as town.

This is imo the way you go about reading people.

Scumtells imo are not really scumtells. Town do them about as often as scum do. What's more important is the underlying motive of posts.

And this is also where I ahem incorporate meta into this discussion: even if a player makes a lit of scumtells, etc., if that is what they do every game, its null. Aka, you read people based off their meta/playstyle rather than just lynch them for blantant "scum"tells.

[Ircher]

Where is Smudger? He's disappeared.

VOTE: Icerint

[Ircher]

a) Just .... Because....
b) Iecerint; Whoops, srry. Oh, and you're Icerint from now on cuz that was what I first saw your name as and quite frankly, its easier to remember.

[Ircher]

His iso is sparse.

[Ircher]

Why not join me?

[Ircher]

So, who should we counterwagon?

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1781 - D1 Andro ISO

1. Gut that Roshar's town in 222 -

Everything up to this post has been primarily RVS/null. Maybe I forgot, but where did that townread come from? The post on a whole reads as -

Null-Town Indicative

2. Expresses Xkfyu scumread in 223, but doesn't vote til 361, 12 hours later. -

This is one of those things that feel weird. Considering it was only 12 hrs, maybe Andro simply forgot, but still a bit unusual. -

Null-Scum Indicative

The Iso is way too shallow and too much null here.

I can support this counterwagon, for now.
VOTE: Andro

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1781 - D1 Andro ISO

1. Gut that Roshar's town in 222 -

Everything up to this post has been primarily RVS/null. Maybe I forgot, but where did that townread come from? The post on a whole reads as -

Null-Town Indicative

2. Expresses Xkfyu scumread in 223, but doesn't vote til 361, 12 hours later. -

This is one of those things that feel weird. Considering it was only 12 hrs, maybe Andro simply forgot, but still a bit unusual. -

Null-Scum Indicative

The Iso is way too shallow and too much null here.

I can support this counterwagon, for now.
VOTE: Andro

First you admit to not reading a case, before stating it is a solid case and sheeping it. Then you get all wishy washy with your votes. Then you post an ISO analysis that LITERALLY SAYS you have ONE null-slight scum and ONE null-slight town read, ending in an overall perfectly middle of the road 100% null read. And continue to say you support counter-wagoning this person.

If you had implied voting for pressure on them to provide more content, okay I'd understand. But you didn't. You literally expressed a willingness to run a lynch wagon on them. What the fuck. Either you're the worst scum player of all time, or you're blatantly not giving a fuck about this game at all. Either way, you need to be gone.VOTE: Ircher

That is incorrect. You missed the key part -- For Now; which implied that I was not sold on it. It's early in the Day.

I still don't like Gork, but you're a more pressing concern.

@Maru, do you think if scum had an extra vote on them, (yet they're many votes away from a lynch) they'd freak out in the dt? If you'd argued wifom, that would be a diff matter, but that still wouldn't lead you to an alignment as it could go both ways.
So, maru, you admit that gorke turns everything into a joke, yet, you don't consider this to be one as well?

I think neither town nor scum would make a fuss in the way that Gork did about the vote. it felt faked as fuck. Before it was pointed out as sarcasm, i couldn't understand it, but Regardless of the way in which gork went about it, ANYBODY expressing a fear of votes is MORE likely to be scum than town. I don't think anybody would freak out in the day thread over that few votes. thats why i was so flabbergasted originally.

However, after being pointed out that the semi-joking sarcasm existed, it made MORE sense for scum to make a joke about extra votes on them, to cover up a legitimate worry about town roles with voting-impairing power roles or restrictions of some kind, in order to find out if the vote was legitimate or not. Personally, if I were in gork's shoes and saw an extra vote on myself and I was town, I'd not really care or I'd simply say "@Mod: is there an error in the votecount at all?" just to clarify. if no error, I would assume some form of town-sided vote-impairing power role (I've seen more townsided than scumsided roles that play with votes), and not say anything about it to hope scum don't notice. If error, I continue playing game and don't give a fuck. As scum, I would be worried about getting as much information about said vote-impairing power role as possible, so rather than just asking after errors, I would specifically ask about the extra vote of a specific person on myself.

Basically, the only way I could see myself acting as he did, in his shoes, is if I was scum. THATS why I thought it was scummy.


Do I think it is typical of EITHER town OR scum to freak out in the manner gork did over an extra vote on them when they have that few votes? Not at all. I just think the specific way he went about doing it seemed very scum oriented, in trying to cover up a legitimate worry about extra votes on himself. Yes, he did make a joke, No I don't think the joke was all the post contained. I think the joke was just covering up the fear of votes to try to draw attention away from it.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Maruchan

Some OMGUS is involved here.

[Ircher]

Will try to do some reviews later.

[Ircher]

Ill get to this tomorrow... Or maybe Wednesday; just dont feel like it right now.

[Ircher]

Ircher, why vote Gork when assuming a scumclaim from Xk?
Or do you think the supposed scumclaim was a joke?

What scumclaim?

[Ircher]

Where is Smudger? He's disappeared.

VOTE: Icerint

Hey Gork, I have a theory.

Assassin/Ircher/Smudger scumteam.

Waddya think?

My thought is TOO OBVIOUS.

[Ircher]

so I had a huge long post, then the DOD Firewall temporarily blocking access to MS ate it.

Basically showed how ircher's two most recent posts are even worse, and we should all lynch him, and responded to iece's comment about davsto sayign davsto wasnt towny enough to outdo the scummyness or ircher, and pointed out how if davsto had been scum, it coudl explain his earlier claim of a non-plotinus role, as scum are less likely to worry, due to lack of probability of being night killed.

so yeah

ircherscum
lynch it with fire

he's literall y to lazy to even read the game or play it or give us a definitive time when he'll stop being lazy.

(also f you dod level enterprise server firewall)

I have a book to read actually by Friday,

The Once and Future King

- Book 1: "The Sword and the Stone"

And, while I hate lurkers and admit I'm doing it right now, lurking by itself is not alignment indicative (exceot when done in excess imo)

[Ircher]

He should be prodded.

Its been over 48h.

[Ircher]

"Low Hanging Fruit" - Uggh. Lurkers are not low hanging fruit fyi; they need to be pressured too (Im assuming you are referring to lurkers). Sure, scumreads are easy on them, but thats self-inflicted; dont blame the person who points it out.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Action Dan
I hate lurkers; although this one seems to have forgot about the game.

[Ircher]

Who do you want me to ISO?

[Ircher]

SERIOUSLY????

[Ircher]

@Mod

Interestingly enough, using scripts / macros / bots isn't against site rules... Unless its malware or does something against site rules ofc.

Still curious to how you can get the VC in within half-a-second resolution.

PS: This is totally off-topic

[Ircher]

Nothing great in the iso. About 33% is completely RVS/off-topic stuff. Lots of very short posts and minimal scumhunting.

[Ircher]

RC should be lynched as I'll never sort him.

[Ircher]

RadiantCowbells replaces ActionDan.

VOTE: Xkfyu

scum.

hype

Ircher I really hate that you've basically mucked up dav's slot with ur scummy posting. i was so ready to write him off as conf-town in the first few pages in the game -___-'

~Nahdia

Good. My reputation stands.

[Ircher]

No, I'm being dead serious when I say the above.

[Ircher]

Alright, I'll have some contenf by Friday evening.

@RC - PL? I dont think that makes any sense.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1781 - X ISO

1. First 20 posts are all RVS, null posts. -

Null-Indicative

2. Asks Gork in 162 why he's 1) Connecting Smudger's entrance to the RVS wagon and 2) Why Gork believes Smudger what respond til the wagon slows down -

These are two very good questions imo to ask, but considering his previous content, it seems too focused and specific to one thing rather than consider the whole picture. -

Null-Indicative

3. Responds to Gork in 173 -

The first part looks to me like a chainsaw. His questioning still seems very focused and narrow, but that isn't necessarily alignment-indicative. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

4. 486 - Vote changed from Mar to Minsc -

This just feels weird. He continues to state he has a scum read on Maruchan yet he just flips wagons for no reason except... sheeping? So, few questions here: 1) Why'd you switch 2) How strong is your Maruchan read? 3) If you are sheeping: whose opinion are you sheeping, and why? -

Null-Scum Indicative

I have mixed feelings on this slot. A lot of stuff is just null stuff or simply responses, yet I see very little explanation of where X's reads come from.

In some ways, I'd support this lynch, yet at the same time, I feel the case for it isn't strong enough. Someone earlier mentioned a scumslip from this slot. I never saw one.

What I really would like are more specific reasons why this slot is scum, as I don't see anything that sways me one way or another right now.

[Ircher]

Yeah, whats up with the Minsc and RC wagons?

Certainly you didnt think I was serious about lynching RC?

UNVOTE:

[Ircher]

I'm gonna sheep RC though cuz RC tends to be correct... when town.

VOTE: Minsc

L-1

Im serious about this vote. While I dont find the iso particularly scummy, there are a lot of null points and useless posts in it that I consider the lynch. Furthermore, RC is a strong player when town, so I think this is the best lynch atm.

[Ircher]

Wait, Nots is L-1.

I fprgot the unvote.

[Ircher]

@Not

- You scum-claiming?

[Ircher]

ircher.
why are you posting so weirdly.

ari.
ilu.
please catch up.

ranger.
please be town.

Im not. This is my "not so invested" in game, so generally, I play worse. I'm more focused in the micro. But some of this stuff is just my playstyle.

[Ircher]

It happened to me not too long ago.

[Ircher]

@Fire
Pls elaborate, I have read, but dont understand-o.

I can sheep RC who is known to catch scum without specifying reasons, but you, not so much.

[Ircher]

Sheeping != Scum. Ask RC, he'll attest to that.

I havent seen scum despite doing quite some isos. Why are you refusing to provide reasons?

[Ircher]

Scum as in scummy. Sheeping is not neccessarily scummy. Take Newbie 1682 for a good example. Look closely at the endgame chats.

[Ircher]

I have. ISO me and look for spoilers.

[Ircher]

I stand corrected. Apparently, I never did that iso

[Ircher]

I have given a few throughout my iso. I did notably forget to do an ISO on Misc, so Ill prob. do that later.

[Ircher]

@Gork

That, I cant really do. Most of my reads currently stand around neutral/null territory.

[Ircher]

(I'm still only at 764 when saying this, but I've realzied now all my earlier argument about gork was all null and that he's just an annoying person. I don't see anything particularly townie in his play other than activity which from personal experience is null, but he's not scummy anymore. jus wanted to put that out there. Ircher can still die in a fire.)

So, you conclude that Gork is simply annoying and you therefore have a null read on him now, yet I can "still die in a fire"? I would like a more substandial reason as to why you think I am scum. In addition, if this is a Policy-Lynch issue that you are trying to push my lynch for, you should seriously reconsider.

I don't think that I'm goign to fully catch up at the time because my reads aren't really changing atm.

I'm down for a lynch on Minsc / FA / XK.

I would *settle* for an FA. But we need to lynch Ircher. Minsc I really should go ISO at some point this weekend. I really can't remember the slot well at all.

Again, please elaborate on your read of me. Do you find me annoying? Active Lurking? Fluff? What? Do a better job of supporting your reads, as you have been tunneling me all day without stating why you find me scummy.

Outta nowhere!

VOTE: Minsc and boo

How is this not scummy as all hell? He literally has not said a signle word about minsc and boo all game. Even if he realzied it wasn't ACTUALLY L-1, this screems scumploy trying to pretend to be a town-gambit.

"One-Size-Does-Not-Fit-All".
Town can fakehammer too. At worst, it's scum indicative. Most likely, it is null. Furthermore, I did mention it when it happened, so.... no.

If someone builds me a solid case on Minsc, I would definitely consider supporting the wagon. Ircher isn't going to die today because Ranger refueses, and RC is my only co-conspirator to possibly lynching him. I'd support FA Lynch as i find the slot null-slightly scummy, and he wants out due to personal reasosns, and i can't stand his playstyle. more policy with slightly better chances of hittign scum than town though.

RC would PL me, but he doesn't really scumread me right now. Your chances of lynching me are zero, unless you elaborate and give good reasons why I am scum. On the other hand, it is

quite clear

to me that you aren't really scumhunting; in fact, you are simply looking for good people to try to policy-lynch.

Evidence:

- Tunnel on me. Only stated why once, and never supported his reasoning with actual evidence. The "scumminess" he finds in me seems to stem more from a PL standpoint rather than me actually being scum.
- Was scumreading Gork earlier. Now that the Gork wagon has no traction, states it was merely a playstyle thing and therefore null.
- Would support a Fire lynch for PL reasons. Says it is nullish-scummy reasons, yet never states why.

Perhaps I'm OMGUSING you to an extent here, but your actions do not indicate a townie motive from my viewpoint.

[Ircher]

Literally nobody has made any positive or negative comments on the mini-case i built on ircher. wtf. Did nobody else think he was scummy for that bullshit and/or have good reason to dispute why it makes him scummy to convince me of his townieness?

Not particularly. I'm not wanting to encourage TvT (and that's what I think it is). I'm also not wanting scum to think you're a viable mislynch to push. So ignoring you is best, as much as I'm not a fan of that.

Why is Maruchan a townread? While to some extent, TvT is bad for town in the short run, it is also useful for town in the long run. If one can determine with a high amount of confidence that a fight is TvT, then we can eliminate those players from our lynch canidates. And, PoE is probably town's most powerful weapon, so your continual short, minimal-effort or off-topic (RVS) posts are not helping town in the slightest. Instead, you are simply trying to avoid any fughts with town. Why? Fear of being caught as scum? Fear of making town angry? I definitely know that town Titus isn't afraid to out his opinion, so why are you avoiding interaction? I cannot say for sure at this point, but this post does not read town to me.

[Ircher]

Ok, I can support the Minsc lynch right now. Primarily for the following reasons:

1) Very vague on where their reads stand and why
2) Lots of off-topic/RVS/prod-dodging content. (I'd estimate about 75% of the ISO with +/-5% margin of error)
3) Along with #2, very little scumhunting going on. Even worse is the fact there two of them and yet neither of them really seem to be trying to determine who is who.
4) The way some of the posts were worded... While it certainly could be (and prob. should be interpreted as) jokes, they have a vibe that doesn't suggest a mere phrasing anomaly.... They feel more like scumslips being dropped intentionally (Under the presumption that town would simply dismiss them as miswording of stipuff).

[Ircher]

Maybe later, I'm happy with wagoning smudger right now

Why? Sure, Smudger didn't contribute much, but did you have any particular reason besides inactivity (esp. considering it was the RVS wagon)?

[Ircher]

Okay I'm ready now

VOTE: Fire Assassin

Disappointed that smudger got to lurk off his wagon but feeling increasingly better about FA lynch

Opportunistic timing? I'm seeing a lot of off/on wagons without any reason being given whatsoever.

I've done it a few times this game (once or twice?), but most of the time, I had some reason, whether right or wrong, that expressed my current views.

I'm seeing the exact opposite here: everyone just votes, etc when they feel like it and never explain why or if they do, give extremely shallow and vague reasons why.

[Ircher]

Ircher opposing this wagon makes me feel better

It just, makes me more confident it's a scum lynch

Want to go more into why because Ircher is against it, it makes you more confortable?

Who are you scum reading?
me?
Ircher?
Smudger?

You and smudger, Ircher is my biggest townread

With the number of times you say this, certainly you could elaborate some?

[Ircher]

I'm townreading the slot mainly based on davsto, he went about his early day proposal in a town way, there was fishing for town cred. I've seen Davsto as scum, and that wasn't it. An ircher's rebuttal was literally just "no null" like half a dozen times. There's nothing to argue against.

Can you rewrite this so what you said is clearer?

[Ircher]

I had the third most posts prior to my V/LA, didn't you yourself say I was one of the active players like 2 days ago?

But, how much content and or scumhunting went into those posts? I won't deny that you have done more scumhunting then some other people, but still, the amount of effort you are putting in still seems VERY low.

[Ircher]

Sorry, got the flu and starting a new job today, nothing has happened to really change my scumreads on FA AND Smudger slot.

Would prefer a xkfyu lynch if we're hunting off the AD wagon, can't bring myself to join a wagon driven by Fire and smudger slot

Your scum read on smudger was based on a random sentence. Chamber replaced, and you say your scum read remains. Putting aside that the entire scum read on Smudger carries zero weight, you imply your scum read has carried over to Chamber. Why?

1. Is there a reason it wouldn't?

Any reason you'd prefer an Xkfyu lynch?

2. You literally just quoted the post where I explained why

1. Well, your read started off as RVS. Then, it seemed to be based on inactivity. Now it seems to be based on ??? reasons that you have faiked to share. So, yes, there is: as the replacement has quite a few more posts than Smudger did, you should stop brushing them off as "oh, that's just scum talking" and actually consider their value and determine whether or not they still read as scum-motivated to you.

2. I would like an elaboration. Your reason is basically "Well, Fire and Smudger's slots are being lynched, so I'll find the next easiest target to try to 'compromise' with town on." Why do you scumread X more than some of the other players? I harp on activity a lot, but the reality is that activity is

generally

not alignment indicative. Yet, it seems to me that most of your scumreads stem from such logic and you just tunnel them without ever reconsidering.

[Ircher]

meh, ircher is maybe town for the fervor and rigorous nature of last post.

p-edit: actually yeah ircher can be in the townpile.

also if im being frustrating, its probably for a reason.

Hmmm.... What changed your mind from "Maybe town" to "Is Town" so quickly? You already acknowledged my post in here, so a very weird change it seems.

[Ircher]

Most (3 out of 4) of Smudgers votes accumulated before he even made his first post, so why are you connecting his entrance with his wagon?

do you disagree that smudger's wagon still being a thing is related to his entrance?
y/n?
if y, why ask such a pointless question.
if n, why are you being wrong at me?

Also, why do you believe that he won't react until his wagon's momentum slows down?

lack of reaction to the rest of the wagon.

You just gonna scum read me and ignore my questions?

yes and maybe.

And why is M&B "untouchable" today?

because.

This is a town-motivated post. There is focused questioning, yet at the same time, the focus isn't too narrow.

[Ircher]

so heres fire assassin in a nutshell and why you should vote for him.
i) opening vote is on me.
starts as RVS.
he then tries to weirdly justify it with easy reasoning.
not a big deal, but it gave me gutfeels that he felt nervous about sitting on an unexplained vote, which feels scummy in my heart.

I think I covered tpwhy this was bad before, but as it is

one of the only

substandial reasons behind votes given this entire game, that's a plus for Gork.

1. So, to begin with: (I'll fact-check myself later on this, but) how is RVSish reasoning for an RVSish vote scummy? Reasons given during RVS tend to be silly, joking, or illogical and should be taken lightly. As you did not care to quote what reasoning Fire gave for his vote, I can only assume that the reason was RVSish in nature.

ii) transition onto nahdia/beeboy hydra is wonky and easy. he abandons the vote on me for what amounts to "these posts look weird" which is meh. what bothers me is that it feels like hes registered that im not an easy push at this point. specifics here being:

2. Maybe, but I think Fire probably just figured that your posts weren't really alignment-indicative and were just a playstyle issue of yours. This point is overall null.

I find this strange you have so many reads this early into the game.
I guess they are mostly 'leans' so, not really strong so its w/e.

this is his follow-up to me ignoring his questions.

I agree with Fire here, your # of reads and your strength in your reads read as strange. Though, I wouldn't push it as scummy.

where other people are prickled by me doing this, he backs off, hedges and waffles. it just doesnt seem like a real genuine "im trying to figure out who scum is"-reaction and instead just kind of looks to me like "how do i push someone and not get flack for it here/how do i explain what ive done so far in a way that wont get me in trouble?"

I look into it!

You realize your hostility isn't going to help anyone read you right? Its all AtE, which can be either alignment. I am willing to have a conversation with you, but if all your going to do is throw emotional posts like this, we can't have a discussion and I will have to ignore you.

this does not look like a genuine reaction to someone hes voting/calling scummy.

Why not? It actually reads as town, as scum usually do not wish to engage their attackers. Wanting to engage and work stuff out with you is imo 99% of the time pro-town. Now, scum can certainly fake this and may even try to mislead you, but we gotta have some basis for townreads, so I'd still read this point as suggesting town Fire rather than scum Fire.

Why does this sound like you are lining up both associations and lynches before we even have a single flip. This is disgusting on so many levels, its more likely to come from bad town than scum though.

the entire mindset of this post just screams to me of scum not knowing how to deal with someone hardpushing them for reasons that they dont understand.

Here's the main problem I have with your case: yes, you are analyzing motive rather than just looking to see if a post looks scummy, but you are failing to look at things from both perspectives. Ask yourself three questions: 1) What's the underlying motive (from my stance) 2) Why would scum make this post? 3) Why would town make this post? Afterwards, then decide if the point is truly indicative of alignment or not.

im struggling a little trying to articulate exactly why this post is bothering me so much. i think its mostly that i cant see the town incentive in simultaneously hedging on calling me scummy/calling me bad town to discredit me without committing to pushing me. im kind of hoping if i draw attention to it, someone smarter than me will look at it and see what im seeing and put it into real words.

Calling you scummy yet not trying to lynch you is scummy. (But scummy !== scum). The latter -- bad town -- is policy-lynch territory. Not aggressively pushing a lynch on someone who you wish gone only for policy reasons (like playstyle) is fair, and both town and scum would have reasons to do so.

part of what also bugs me about this, is that he says "time to find scum!", calls me bad town, and then goes on to basically ask me a bunch of questions. does not feel like genuine scumhunting methinks.

there you go. having all of that time to make up these reasons really helped. thanks for letting me stall ircher.

[Ircher]

is that self-assured bad-old-town or scum though not-maf? because the vitriol reads more like wrong than intentional to me.
also, in other news, aristo is slightly leaning town.
itd be awesome if this turned into a POE game.

Elaborate please.

[Ircher]

like, here:
i) early townread was a gutread for effort. it was an intentionally naive read.
ii) scumread was because im eager to find scummate connections and you pushing me/fire but concluding on me being worth voting over him just sat weirdly to me.
iii) townread is because way you pushed me just gives vibes of a certain archetype of townplayer that im used to playing with.

pick at it if youd like.
id strongly prefer if you picked at the case on fire instead.

Context please?

[Ircher]

i dont really know how to phrase it in a way that wouldnt be frustrating if i was wrong.
i need to sit down and quantify my thoughts because right now its all just vague outlines.

p-edit: jfc q.q
i was talking to fire with that second part.

This ^ is the thing about me.

Lots of time, stuff doesn't make sense until I actually convince myself to actually look through it. I read every post as soon as possible, generally, but I also generally tend not to realky understand what's going on until I anakyze it later... except anything directed at me; I can generally understand those pretty well.

[Ircher]

davsto would then also have to explain lategame why hes still alive in spite of being a claimed PR.
the logic goes both ways.

Except I never claimed pr.

[Ircher]

i can pick at your ircher case tonight if youd like. there are a few reasons that i like for why that slot is likely town.

I forget. Did you ever di this? If you haven't, I'd be interested in knowing these reasons.

[Ircher]

minsc.
androgy.
you.
maybe fire.

This is a weird, unexpected change in reads. Why did your scumreads change? What was scummy about Chamber? Minsc? Andro? Dan?

[Ircher]

radiant is scummy because i disagree with his reads.

Radiant is generally on target with his reads. Ofc, that also makes him dangerous as scum.

[Ircher]

im gonna play a game where im just a dick instead of playing this game.
"tierlist:
ircher : same as RC
notmafia : same as RC
=========
beeboy/nahdia
smudger
=========
titus/radja [also untouchable today]
actiondan
iece
aristophanes : called townlean later.
roshar
=========
maruchan
=========
xkfyu : same as RC
=========
fire assassin"

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

This differs quite some from your previous reads you implied. What changed?

[Ircher]

also if ircher could give some coherent straightforward thoughts on the game as it stands and not just "i am sheeping x-person" i would love them dearly because i havent been able to follow anything theyve been doing for a while and its confusing me in spite of things that made me think theyre town.

That is btw a misrep of my contributions, as I explained why I was sheeping RC and have provided coherent thoughts (maybe not straightforward) in the past.

[Ircher]

No, I'm not. I don't do drugs.

Then read your own ISO and come back to me.

I'll do just that!

[Ircher]

Then dont post a case that is 100% null indicative.

has it ever occurred to you that maybe youre just really bad?

Dude, you don't need to be rude to players. Just say they should rethink their reads while being subtle about their badness.

..... 41st post and only what? 5 of them had content in them? Uggh, I hate people who are always being sarcastic and messing around all day as they are almost as hard to read as lurkers.

[Ircher]

Why don't people join me on this:
VOTE: Minsc and Boo

I need assistance!

As always, no reasons given about why.....

[Ircher]

Gorkington still has failed to respond to any question or request posed to him regarding his reads or changes of his reads, and just continues attempting to make snide humor comments, that fail to provide humor.

oooo did you want me to double down on my cheeky bullshit? because you ignoring me actually giving content in the form of a case to continue this hilarious tirade against me having fun in this game is just amazing and you really are just incentivizing me at this point.

At the point in my read through I made that comment your case had not yet been made, and you still have avoided even acknowledging me or XK asking you about your reads on us. You've continued to blatantly ignore that.

like seriously, im driving the biggest wagon in the game right now with the best-made case. tomorrow i'll pick at fire's response to it. and then i'll probably drive the game some more. does it bother you that youre impressively uninfluential when youre trying so hard while a buffoon who doesnt use proper grammar and posts sarcastically 90% of the time is?

That case was actually rather awful. I literally thought it would be decent and didnt bother to check the evidence.

Literally how is this town play.

"Oh I was too lazy to read the first case of the game ,but since it was the first case of the game, hey, I'll hop on it. BANDWAGGON AHOY".

THAT IS NOT TOWN PLAY.

I am sorry to tell you this, but people sheep wagons for awful reasoning all the time, and its often town. Scum sometimes do it, but usually they are worried about looking bad.

Is it pro town behavior to ignore the actual case? No
Is it anti town? Hell yes.

Is he scum? Id say I think he is trying to solve the game so that reads as town.

Correct way to analyze a post imo.

[Ircher]

Can we wagon Minsc and Boo right now? I feel very lackluster by their participation in the game which has me nervous. Them and Maruchan should be the lynch options today I feel. Most everyone else I can feel some townie posts exist for.

Is there another reason besides just general inactivity?

[Ircher]

Can we like....not use meta as basis of our reads?

Absolutely not. Absolutely no way you'd read me correctly if it weren't for meta.

[Ircher]

if you think this is teammafia ad why is this your first mention of it.

p-edit: fa confirmed alt.
teehee.

I said I was an alt.....

No you didn't. You said that you might be an alt. Might !== Is.

[Ircher]

Sheeping != Scum. Ask RC, he'll attest to that.

I havent seen scum despite doing quite some isos

. Why are you refusing to provide reasons?

I am not saying you are scum, I said you have a scummy post. Theres a difference. That is why I can still call you town at the end without it being a contradiction.

1.

So you assume that players who ISO are town?

2. As for my lack of reasons, I don't feel is necessary at this time. I have given a few for a few reads, their is no reason to do wall posts unless you really want to make a point, but many times that point is lost in it anyways. Short to the point is much better.

Hopefully those colors aren't annoying either.

1. Not at all. Just, none of the ISOs read as scum.
2. I'm sorry, but you have to provide them eventually.... unless you're RC

[Ircher]

If you only knew the power of the dark side.

*exhales*

I know the power, cause I am scum. Don't you remember?
I am Boba Fett, the hired gun for the Empire.

Are you a jester? I mean, seriously!

[Ircher]

Time for a counter wagon

VOTE: androgybee

I wonder why Smudger chose Andro....

[Ircher]

Guys, I still like a boo lynch better than fire, but can we find a third option? I'm starting to have my doubts.

Reasons would've been nice.... I mean, why do people just refuse to provide reasons for reads?

[Ircher]

Town: {Ircher, Roshar}
Townish: {Nahdia, NM}
Townlean: {Aristo, Gorkington, Marcuhan}
still Okish: {Chamber}
Null
Maybe scum: {Iecerint}
Scummy: {Xkfyu}
Scumlords: {Fire Assassin}
Scumlord prime: {Minsc and Boo}

<3

Town: {Ircher, Roshar}
Townish: {Nahdia, NM}
Townlean: {Gorkington, Maruchan}
Lurksauce: {Aristo}
Null
Scumbum: {Xkfyu, Iecerint}
Scumlorderinoes: {Fire Assassin}
Scummiest scumbutt NA: {Minsc and Boo}

<3 <3 <3

As for me,
{RadiantCowbells, androgybee, Not_Mafia, Gorkington}
{Ircher, Fire Assassin}
{Aristophanes, Roshar}
{Maruchan}
{Xkfyu, Minsc and Boo, Iecerint}

Why do you townread Andro so much? I would personally put both Not mafia and Andro at neutralish rn.

[Ircher]

Nope ur wrong.

Gork is towny in opening. Your entrance involved an "ewwww" post which are seriously the most fucking stupid things I see on this site and I can't fucking stand them. Stop it. Stop it. You're not funny. You're not coy. You're not original. You're not even helpful. You're just being a fucking annoying whiney brat. Christ all fucking mighty please stop being so dumb.

You're wrong btw we're town and there was nothing even remotely scummy about posts you're trying to throw shade at so try again, freakin lamer. Or at the very least use your fucking words instead of being a total brat and just making disapproving noises.

~Nahdia

I find this very hypocritucal considering you made an eww post as your very first post.

[Ircher]

Minsc and Boo is one of those wagons that I kind of like except I don't like the people ON the wagon.

I still think Xkfyu is a good vote. I'll look over a bit but does anyone townread them? idk what it is about 486 and 487 but they're iffy as heck yo.

I guess I should probably ISO Fire Assassin.

~Nahdia

Explain your X read better pls.

[Ircher]

Let's lynch someone before the mods get the role PMs.

That reveal would be hilarious.

Even RVS, I wouldn't joke about that.

[Ircher]

Gorks my strongest townread.
Minsc my strongest scumread.
And RC is my wildcard currently.

[Ircher]

Then it says"
e
w

[Ircher]

How bout contributing some more. Any thoughts on my latest 50 or so posts?

[Ircher]

... Whatever.....

[Ircher]

Ircher, what have you done to the thread!?

Also,
wew
e
w

is clearly a "wew" going horizontally, and a "wew" going vertically. Like a crossword.

Ninja'd by that same explanation.

ISO quite a few people nd listed thoughts.
People who I kinda skipped:

Icerinnt
Roshar
Aristo
X (Cuz I did him earlier in the day phase)
Maruchan

Im pretty sure I looked at everyone else.

[Ircher]

Ive literally doubled my post count in this thread in the last 12 hrs btw.

[Ircher]

............Not a surprise tbh, but you might want to elaborate on why you think thats the case.

[Ircher]

I want to know the opposite:

What specificly about my play do you dislike?

And ask yourself: Do you dislike me cuz I'm acting scummy, or do you dislike my playstyle?

[Ircher]

I'm fine with lynching Minsc or Maruchan right now.

I prob. wouldn't lynch RC, Fire, or Gork right now.

Pedit: Some things were more for lolz. I rarely point out towny stuff mainly cuz its hard to explain, but that particular post really looked townish.

[Ircher]

I havemt seen much scumhunting this game which is part of the reason that post was considered quite townie.

[Ircher]

like uhg i know you might still be town i just ahte that the onyl reason im considering it is because ur predecessor was so freaking towny ffs

Also:

Metadive me

[Ircher]

I have a sudden desire not to lynch Titus and I know it's probably wrong and I know I've done this before when she's been scum and it's fucked me over

but can we lynch XK first?

Give me a reason or two why X is scum and Ill consider it.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Reads

Confirmed Town

(From my perspective) (98%-100% Confidence)
Ircher  (100%) - Role PM

Likely Town

(85%-97% Confidence)
Gork (93%) - While his early-game and late-game are imo "meh", I see a lot of effort and scumhunting from this slot. His push on Fire is imo iffy, but I think he genuinely thought Fire was scum. He also has a bit broader perspective than I originally thought.
Fire (86%) - The Gork vs Fire really reads TvT to me. Furthermore, his disappointment at RC and Ranger entering the game does not read to me as "oh no, they're gonna catch me!"

Leaning Town

(60%-84% Confidence)
Roshar (69%) - The few times he does chip in are generally informative and I see town-motivation in the posts.
Not Mafia (71%) - His early game play read as fairly townie to me, but now he seems to just be lurking all day long.

Null

(0% - 30% Confidence; No/Very Weak Read)
RC (0%) - This guy's always unsortable. I'll guage by who he lynches.
Ice (-5%) - I'll try to look at this guy again later. Last time, I ended up with a almost completely null iso, so leaning very slightly towards scum here.

Neutral

(31%-59% Confidence; Mixed Read)
Aristo (+35%) - Meh. Would like more.
X (-40%) - Tbh, I don't really understand the scumread here. A lot of this slot's stuff is null imho.
Ranger (+32%) - Smudger was awful (no offense). Chamber seemed to generate a lot of fluff after looking through the ISO. Ranger has kinda redeemed this slot, but still could go either way here.

Leaning Scum

(60%-75% Confidence)
Andro (-62%) - This slot is meh and needs to contribute more rather than cause drama all day long.

Likely Scum

(76%-100% Confidence)
Maruchan (-81%) - OMGUS! But seriously, your tunnel on me is rather ridiculous and you need to broaden your horizons a lot. This extremely narrow focus is indicative of either bad townplay or scumplay imo.
Minsc (-83%) - Many minor things here and there rub me the wrong way. Furthermore, I see a lack of effort from this slot which further suggests scum.

[Ircher]

Ircher why?

Why what? You have to specify your context!

[Ircher]

VOTE: Maruchan

Kinda would like this lynch better though.

[Ircher]

please replace me. sorry ether.

Why?

[Ircher]

Im considering replacing out.

[Ircher]

it's kind of weird how so many of your reads are "this slot is null/needs to do more" yet the numbers you assign to them are across the board but whatever

>_>

i think something about Ranger's slot which was really towny was the way they sorted Fire Assassin (making a guess to their identity and applying a meta). it came off as really genuine to me, did anyone feel the opposite about that? it was one of those things that i just wouldn't expect scum to make up, but i guess it's possibly im underestimating ranger's scum game???

~Nahdia

I only had like 3 or so null reads.

My reads aren't 100% factual; its more 85% Objective and 15% Subjective.

[Ircher]

Im considering replacing out.

I feel very similar right now, especially with Gorkington replace out.
I don't want to destroy this game, but I feel very dismotivated from playing it.

At the same time though, I spent a lot of time today forming some reads on players.

Who wants to just end this day?

[Ircher]

Tbh, Gork was like the lifeblood of this game.

[Ircher]

Let's speedlynch and see what happens

VOTE: Minsc and Boo

Yeah.... no.
VOTE: Not Mafia
Blatant scumclaim!

[Ircher]

Lol, well, if Gork stays, Ill stay.

[Ircher]

I'd actually prefer Qlynching not mafia right now. Dead serious, that was an utterly scummy move to make

[Ircher]

UNVOTE:
Still makes me less inclined to lynch Minsc now though

Pedit: Nice anakysis, but what talk?
VOTE: Maruchan - Lets lynch this guy!

Pedit2: I like what RC just said actually
VOTE: Aristo

[Ircher]

So do we, but Mini 1763 is one example of where its way better to close the game when no one cares anymore

[Ircher]

RC: Join the Aristo wagon pls.

[Ircher]

Well, out of those two, I prefer Minsc:

VOTE: Minsc

[Ircher]

VOTE: Xkfyu

I'll say it for the 26th time:

Reasons?

[Ircher]

Your on the wagon.... :O

[Ircher]

For the 27th time:

Reasons?

[Ircher]

UNVOTE:
No.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Ircher

Ya really think I care about that vote?

[Ircher]

VOTE: X

[Ircher]

To prove a point.

[Ircher]

Though seriously, PL me tomorrow if ya gonna do it at all.

[Ircher]

VOTE: Minsc and Boo
L-1, someone hammer.

UNVOTE:
No.

VOTE: Ircher
Policy.

I dont see how this progression leads to policy though. Unvoting cuz you dont want an early lynch is not at all bad play.

[Ircher]

D. Town who doesnt want a Qlynch right now

[Ircher]

and E. Dont have a super strong scumread on either and be fine with lynching both

[Ircher]

I give up..............
VOTE: Minsc

[Ircher]

Why do you feel RC is scum, @Minsc?

[Ircher]

Ok.
VOTE: X

Hammer -- As I stated before, I was fine with either lynch (though I kinda prefer X right now cuz of all the things that are happening on the Minsc wagon).

[Ircher]

Plus, Maruchan scumclaimed anyway

[Ircher]

damn i miscounted, now he's L-1.

can we end this stupid day already, before mass exodus of replace outs?

This really feels to me lie an Xk partner trying to make sure a lynch happens on someone who isn't Xk.

[Ircher]

Fire/X/Maru -- That sounds very plausible

[Ircher]

Seriously though, Maru was the deciding factor

[Ircher]

Im pretty sure RC is town this game.

[Ircher]

I'm still very suspect of Maruchan and to a lesser extent, Minsc

[Ircher]

VOTE: Maruchan

That was quite some vote flipping you did at the end of the day (not to mention a failed hammer)

[Ircher]

@Not Mafia
Still mainly Maru's fault. Plus, I thought we agreed that no one really wanted the day to last much longer

[Ircher]

Ugh.
I don't like Maru's last post.
It feels a lot like a scumbuddy with Minsc post.

I'm not sure how I feel about Ranger probably being right again.

Literally said I had no idea anything going on with the minsc slot and asked for a case on them, becasue I literally can't physically make one myself before the day ends (I had to log into MS 4 times to make this post, thats how shitty my internet is), and said if it was good I'd lynch them as it's a solid wagon forming.


I skipped pages 37 and the first half of 38 becasue ALMOST 50 CONSECUTIVE IRCHER POSTS, learn to fuckign multiquote man goddamn. I can't use cookeis for shit, and the multi quote button does NOT work with my internet connectivity issues, and yet i can piece together a multi quote by NOT BEING LAZY. oh my god.


@ Everyoen sayign they don't want to leave the mod hanging after all the effort they put into this game, etc, you know we were already mod-abandoned once, and a backup mod took it over because ether is awesome. Like this game has been so disheartening that even the mod left it.

I would not take it personally if this game were abandoned, and if it came to it, I'd rather do that than a mass replace-out. If that happened, I could run a micro for whoever's still interested.

VOTE: Ether (this is me saying lets do this.)


IRCHER THREE DAYS FROM DEADLINE ON DAY ONE IN A 14 DAY DEADLIEN IS NOT EARLY LYNCH

OH MY FUCK

oh hey he's l-1

fuck day one

VOTE: Minsc and Boo

damn i miscounted, now he's L-1.

can we end this stupid day already, before mass exodus of replace outs?

more i was goign to replace otu after gork's repalceout, but then he didn't, and the mod offered to abandon game (which I still hope is viable option), and i just want this gameday to be over.

plus i asked for a case on minsc, and unless ircher posted one in his 50-post-spree-of-dumb, nobody posted one for me, but i already expressed interest in the wagon before.

but whatever

VOTE: xk

Can today end yet?

[Ircher]

Aristo brought X to L-1. I jumped cuz it looked like Maru was trying to mislynch Minsc via quickhammer, failed, and then went to try to bus his partner,

[Ircher]

Ranger was definitely a skill snipe and the only reason Im still alive.

[Ircher]

If I dont get mislynched today (or tomorrow), Id prob be next on the NK list cuz of what Davsto did.

[Ircher]

No, not nk'd

[Ircher]

On the contrary, did I ever state I wouldn't be ok? Nope.

I'll find the auote later.

[Ircher]

Maybe my play has been poor this game.

[Ircher]

I want to hear RC's thoughts.

[Ircher]

Though seriously, PL me tomorrow if ya gonna do it at all.

I am 100% fine with lynching Minsc and Boo, you scum read them. Then you unvote.

You either:
A) Don't have an actual scumread on Minsc
B) Scum that don't want to lynch them yet.
C) Bad town.

and E. Dont have a super strong scumread on either and be fine with lynching both

*Proof with context

[Ircher]

Quite obviously, I meant the two main wagons there: X and Minsc.

Alright, so maybe my hammer was kinda opportunistic/poor. But, while I did give a much higher confidence rating in Minsc being scum (in my readlists), those values are relative to my other reads. If most of my other reads are in general pretty weak (which quite a few were), then while it may seem like a huge difference, it's not.

Both wagons were never really given clear reasons for lynching, yet we had to decide between 1 of the 2 (trying to lynch other people was quite obviously not a possibility). So, yes, I kept flip-flopping on which was more likely to result in scum, and therefore, I probably shouldn't have hammered.

Nonetheless, I did give a reason, even if weak, as to why the last-minute switch to hammer: Maruchan votes Minsc (thinking it was a hammer), realizes its not a hammer (and it reads "oh no, this quickhammer attempt failed"), and then switched back to X, who had a high chance of being Maru's buddy, but not definite. The failed hammer made me feel that Maru had confirmed Minsc as town, so therefore, I voted the other wagon and hammered.

[Ircher]

k, so let's summarize a few people

Maru

- he's been placed on a few lists on the scummy end and I just want to reiterate that he's a town read for me. A lot of arguments he had on Ircher and Gork earlier were really far-fetched but I'm with him on a few points. And those are about notmafia and Ircher.

His recent vote on Minsc, apathy towards end game (yeah, I agree with RC in that respect), and vote on Xfyu only when he started getting accused of being his partner, i.e, he didn't have much interest in pushing that lynch, but once he started getting accused of being his scumbuddy he was all, "screw it, lets get this moving' reaffirms this. Like, if anyone should be analyzed for his end of day vote on Xkfyu it should be Ircher. The fact that Ircher is even going back and trying to accuse Maruchan of this is extremely suspicious. The more he pushes Maru, the worse he looks.

There's a few huge problems here:

1. Remind me why you townread Maru D1.
2. So, you suppose that Maru just wanted a lynch to occur and was being apathetic, etc there at the end of D1? If he didn't care about which wagon he was on and just wanted D1 to end, then why did he switch from a L-1 vote on Minsc back to a L-2 vote on X? Certainly, that should at least be a valid concern to raise, even if you still don't think that's scummy in the slightest.
3. My play was indeed scummy, but scummy != scum. With that said, how come do you give Maru a free pass and yet you heavily question me for my end-of-day actions. You're being biased here: if you are going to hold me accountable for my actions, you should do the same to Maruchan who acted pretty scummy at the end of D1 too.
4. How is trying to hold Maru accountable for his actions make me look worse? Your argument here is basically one huge chainsaw.

Notmafia

, bah. Like what even. His smudger tunnel, is that a role or past history with smudger? If not, I'm not entirely sure what he's doing. Why would scum act so...unabashedly in terms of in your face, "smudger is scum", or his fake Minsc hammer. I'm giving this slot way too much playstyle leeway. We've reached that frightening point when a player cannot be held accountable to what they've said or done b/c of their playstyle.

Ircher

. I retract my town read. Ever since the post where he stated he never read the case on Gork and voted for Fire Assassin b/c he assumed there was a case. What's the logic behind sheeping a wagon your top scum read is making without bothering to properly read it? Had you actually read it and found Fire scummy for it that would have translated to something else entirely.

The more recent stuff I find really off was articulated by Fire Assassin in 1040 1044. His unwillingness to lynch Minsc and Boo, despite showing willingness in 958. Like he jumped to Maruchan, then was really unwilling to go for Minsc, and only after much convincing from Fire Assassin did he vote Minsc, which he quickly changed to Xkfyu despite never having a scum read on Xkfyu. For someone who keeps asking for reasons for reads, I find it hard to believe you would vote someone without scum reading them. This was your read on X

Read the entire section. You need to get your context straight, as your representation is a misrep, for I never expressed a very strong scumread of either. The closest to that is my readlists where I put Minsc way further down than X, but none of my scumreads were extremely strong tbh. Stating it was a strong read and then looking at my later posts makes such a notion illogical for if I really had such strong reads, I wouldn't have done as much vote hopping. In addition, I quoted a later post stating my position on the lynch canidates which literally states my scumreads were not very strong and Id be ok with either.

X (-40%) - Tbh, I don't really understand the scumread here. A lot of this slot's stuff is null imho.

Also, why no hesitation on jumping on the Xkfyu wagon, despite your major scum read (Maruchan) being the one who brought Xkfyu to L-1?

VOTE: Ircher


The second person on the wagon who showed similar unwillingness for Minsc but easily jumped on Xkfyu was Aristophanes.

So, yeah, those two.

And yes, I understand that this is heavily based under the assumption the Minsc does flip scum, but still iffy as hell.

Please consider the scum!Maruchan case then see if you wish to continue pushing this exaggerated and biased angle of attack.

[Ircher]

So let me get this straight.

First, you BLATANTLY tell me part of your read on me is an OMGUS.

Then, I vote Minsc because i want the stupidest day in the history of mafia to end, and so i don't replace out due to apathy (I thought this game was going to be much more fun based on the variety of plot roles, but it looks like it's a standard balanced setup that has an overabundance of VT's).

You take this as me, claiming scum, due to an unwillingness to vote my partner xk. EVEN THOUGH you've MULTIPLE TIMES stated you think minsc is scum and is a preferable lynch of the two between him and xk. So you are basically saying you believe the game to be a 3/9 scumteam, and you're team-hunting ON DAY ONE (scumteam hunting over scumhunting is still the worst thing in the history of scumhunting, on day one is worse, and the way you do it is abysmal).

I say IDGAF nobody is making a case on either of the main wagons, and my prefered lynch (ircher) is not getting lynched. I get called scum for not voting xk. I switch votes to xk

You propose this means I'm busing my partner, EVEN THOUGH YOU ALREADY ESSENTIALLY THOUGHT MINSC WAS SCUM, so you think I DOUBLE-bussed BOTH my partners. And hammer xk

xk flips town

You're huge reason maruchan is scum, because he is xk's buddy who bussed him and didn't vote him and whateverthefuck IS SHOT TO PIECES DUE TO HIS VT ROLE

so you propose minsc and maruchan are still scum.

how does nobody else see how horrible ircher's play is this game?

Actually, I proposed that you are scum who through his actions has made Minsc town. If you simply wanted the day to end, you might as well just kept your vote where it was. Nope -- You switched back to X after getting called out cuz you didn't want to be held accountable for my actions.

I'll agree with you on one point: my play was poor. But, the fact you continue to attack me (not to mention: incorrect facts, though that might be the result of me being unclear and a bit everywhere) and not address the points against you at all suggests you're scum.

[Ircher]

I want to lynch both Ircher and Minsc right now. The fact that Ircher jumped on the counterwagon for Minsc makes me worried about Ircher/Minsc being a team, but I feel I am focusing too much on preflip associations between these two.

I just explained this.

Maru's vote flopping at the end of Day 1 made me think Minsc was town. Therefore, that meant my only other option was voting X.

[Ircher]

I've yet to roll scum in any of my completed games, and this game is not my first.

Let's look at something though from a meta standpoint:

1. I have a meta of getting mislynched frequently cuz I do stuff that is scummy/anti-town.

2. So, if I were scum, don't you think I'd at the very least, try harder in terms of avoiding doing that kind of stuff? Yes, the argument can be made that I'll abuse my meta (and good chance I would), but I'd still want to keep a slightly lower profile. Hammering town X is a good way for me to get in the spotlight, so scum me would perhaps at least think twice about hammering? Since hammers, esp. on town, are very frequently scrutinized.

[Ircher]

So, basically, despite explaining myself, you are stating that regardless of what I say, I'm scum?

[Ircher]

Oh, abd go look at my game history summary on my wiki page.

[Ircher]

2. So, you suppose that Maru just wanted a lynch to occur and was being apathetic, etc there at the end of D1? If he didn't care about which wagon he was on and just wanted D1 to end, then why did he switch from a L-1 vote on Minsc back to a L-2 vote on X? Certainly, that should at least be a valid concern to raise, even if you still don't think that's scummy in the slightest.
3. My play was indeed scummy, but scummy != scum. With that said, how come do you give Maru a free pass and yet you heavily question me for my end-of-day actions. You're being biased here: if you are going to hold me accountable for my actions, you should do the same to Maruchan who acted pretty scummy at the end of D1 too.

The difference between you and Maru is that:

A) Maru didn't try to actively avoid lynching a candidate who he scum read. His vote on Minsc came on it's own without anyone's attempt at convincing.

The quote I quoted earlier specifically refered to Minsc and X, not Minsc and Maru, as RC had made it clear either Minsc or X was being lynched.

B)He didn't jump on Xkfyu for no reason. He was being accused of being his scum buddy, so his thought process on voting Xkfyu after said accusations is clear and logical. You on the other hand, had no reason to jump on Xkfyu. You kept displaying uncertainty on the Minsc lynch, but showed none for X.

I had a reason which Ive stated at least twice, probably thrice by this point. Stop being ignorant.

4. How is trying to hold Maru accountable for his actions make me look worse? Your argument here is basically one huge chainsaw.

Your vote hammered Xkfyu. It didn't precede Maruchan. You knew your scum read had his vote on X

before you hammered

. So, for you to come around D2 and start pointing fingers at Maruchan for him changing his vote to X is really suspicious. Do you see my point? This proves would have held him suspicious regardless of what he did. Had he voted Minsc, the argument would be, "he doesn't want to vote his scum buddy". Now he voted X your argument is, "he changed votes, suspicious!" No matter what he does, you'll make a case on him. And this isn't tunneling. This is an adamant attempt at keeping a case on Maru.

Alright, I probably would had something to say. But, you are simply giving him a free pass when he doesn't deserve one, whereas you are going full-throttle on me.

Read the entire section. You need to get your context straight, as your representation is a misrep, for I never expressed a very strong scumread of either. The closest to that is my readlists where I put Minsc way further down than X, but none of my scumreads were extremely strong tbh. Stating it was a strong read and then looking at my later posts makes such a notion illogical for if I really had such strong reads, I wouldn't have done as much vote hopping. In addition, I quoted a later post stating my position on the lynch canidates which literally states my scumreads were not very strong and Id be ok with either.

In terms of how, "strong" the scum read was, I never said you had a strong scum read on Minsc. However you still had

a

scum read on Minsc. Enough that you were "fine with lynching Minsc or Maru". You also clearly stated you'd prefer to lynch Minsc instead of X.

That was before Maru's actions.... I never expressed a townread.. not even an on the towny side read of X. I expressed a neutral, leaning toward scum, read on X.

As to why I think Maruchan is town. His thoughts are open for the thread. I think many of his reasons are over-the-top and don't agree with them, but I can see he genuinely believes them. I've played with beeboy in my only other game on Mafia scum, and he acted very similarly to this. His emotions are also wide open to the thread. His exasperation, anger at his cases not being looked at, etc. With posts like 566. Like the amount of effort that went into that. With things like, "and now since I said all of that, ircher will use it if still alive tomorrow". He actually believes that. I buy it, at least.

So, agreeing with Fire, I'm willing to lynch Minsc or Ircher.

Here's what Maru literally did at the end of D1:

1050 - VC; Maru is voting me
1062 - Complains about the 50 posts I made and then votes Minsc. Reason? "Oh hey he's L-1..."
1063 - Admits he miscounted; once the day just to end before max exodus of replace outs
1068 - Changes his vote to X simply cuz he got called out. His reasons: 1) He was seen as X's partner 2) He just wants the day to end.

1068 is the one that Maru still needs to acct for, as neither of those reasons should be considered good enough.

[Ircher]

I hammered cuz 1) Everyone wanted the day to end 2) Maru's switches read to me as him failing to Qlynch Minsc, which since I already scumread him and the entire sequence looked poor to me, I read it as meaning Minsc was town

[Ircher]

This argument is pointless though -- You either believe me or you dont. And, people dont bekieve me, and thats how I am mislynched.

[Ircher]

I still stand by my scumread of Maru fyi.

[Ircher]

Yes, I can see that.

Did your scum read on Minsc diminish?

Yes.

[Ircher]

No, thats the reason @Rosh
The argument weaker now, yes, but I still say that it diminishes my scumread some.

[Ircher]

Clarification:

At the end of D1, but before the flip, I saw Minsc as very likely to be town cuz of your failed hammer.
At the start of D2, my read was slightly weaker than the above, but still in that area.
Right now, after Rosh has pointed some of the flaws in my reasoning (albeit I still think you still got to answer a question or two), my read is now a diminished scumread.

[Ircher]

You're still my top priority ck.

[Ircher]

I kinda get why Fire wants to lynch me, but could you be a bit more.... broad/open to other perspectives?

[Ircher]

Maruchan and Ice.

Maru I already explained, even if you think the reasoning is poor.
Ice cuz he is doing a lot of lurking and hasnt contributed anything.

I guess that Minsc comes 3rd on my list, but that isnt quite as strong right now as the aforementioned ones.

[Ircher]

I would like Maru's thoughts on people OTHER than me.

[Ircher]

I always have the games that I'm really interested in and those that its not so much. This is one of those latter games......

[Ircher]

Another quicklynch?

[Ircher]

Fine. I think we should end this game, no ones trying, but lets do one more lynch.

Obv, not lynching myself.
I'll get killed by Maru for this, but out of the alternatives (and since no traction for Maru), I could survive with a Titus lynch.

VOTE: Titus

Lets just end this day phase.

[Ircher]

Then who SHOULD we lynch?

I kinda sobt think its worth my time to go build cases, etc for this game.

[Ircher]

Can we decide on a lynch?

At this point, I'll lynch anyone besides 1) Myself 2) Gork or 3) RC

[Ircher]

Well, we agree somewhere....
I can agree some with not lynching Rosh too.

Maru, Titus, and Ice are definitely people who I would be ok with lynching right now.

[Ircher]

@Titus
What are your reads?

Pedit: A Maru wagon? All aboard!
VOTE: Maruchan

[Ircher]

@RC Anything that strikes out in particular about Iec?

VOTE: Ice

[Ircher]

Wait up!

[Ircher]

16 pages in one night! Oh my!

Please dont lynch til I catchup!

[Ircher]

@Not
We're not lynching RC.

[Ircher]

Spoiler: Mini 1781 - D2 Catchup 51-67

1. 1268 - Andro says I'm null and Maru's sketchy. 1270 - Andro puts me on the same tier as Maru -

That just isn't right. Sketchy implies you are leaning scum on them, yet you put me, a null read, on the same tier? That makes little sense to me. -

Null-Scum-Indicative

2. 1309 - Titus says I was folloswing RC and the Ice wagon had no reasoning behind it -

Yes, I was sheeping RC cuz 1) He's good and 2) He's very likely to be town. But, Aristo did do an Ice ISO earlier, so there was some reason for the wagon. -

Null-Town Indicative

3. 1331 by RC -

Oh wow! That's like a first! I wonder why...... -

Null-Indicative

4. 1373 - Gork requests town case for Andro -

Looking through, ever since you guys started voting and scumreading them, they've been on the defensive. Their defensive arguments are poor and they seem to be appealing a lot to AtE or trying to get a counterwagon going. Their last readlist was absolutely awful and inconsistent, so yeah, I can agree with a scumread on them. -

Null-Indicative (for Gork)

5.

Regarding Titus right now: At first, it just seemed Titus was being unreasonable. But, reconsidering, Titus always has an aggressive playstyle, regardless of alignment. I'm starting to read her posts as being genuine rather than faked. It does help Titus a lot when Andro's #1 scumread right now is Titus who was probably the easiest target to choose..... -

Town-Indicative

6. 1416 - Ando claims tracker -

Who'd you target N1? -

Null-Indicative

7. 1426 - Andro got a song titled "Minsc and Boo" -

Music Vendor? I wonder who that is.... -

Null-Indicative

8. 1462 - RC says protect him - [i)Any particular reason? -

Null-Indicative

[/i]

9. 1478 - Gork complains about Andro targeting a townread -

Meh, maybe they weren't confidemt? Idk.... -

Null-Town Indicative

10. 1505 -

97% chance of town RC.

11. 1519 - Andro thinks RC is gonna coast -

Trust me, that's not happening. -

Null-Indicative

12. 1539 -

The key is you flipping town.

13. 1564 - Andro is heavy AtEing -

Is this normal as both alignments for them? I'm starting to think town, but idk. -

Null-Town Indicative

14. 1571 - Andro states RC and Titus not scumteam -

I would prefer Titus in that case. -

Null-Indicative

15. 1574 -

Exactly! Ranger wasn't a good pick though.

16. 1647 -

Good reason to state why Andro is town.... Unless they are faking it all. I'm back to wanting Maru lynched after this post..... -

Very Town Indicative

[Ircher]

So, whats the chances of the claim being true?

[Ircher]

More so than RC? (@Andro)

Oedit : I kinda buy the AtE though.

[Ircher]

And, yet you brought it up in thread as an attempt at towncred?

[Ircher]

@Andro -- But why not privately?

[Ircher]

Btw, is Gork a music vendor?

[Ircher]

Ok, I'm getting sick of this....
VOTE: Andro

If you flip town, we'll take a closer look at RC and Titus. If you flip scum, we'll look elsewhere.

[Ircher]

Didn't you just say you're like, really sure I'm town?

~Nahdia

No, I said I have doubts about you (being scum). Huge difference.