Mini 1785: Game Over!

[JarJarDrinks]

omg Kush could scum-claim right now and Mr Meeks would be all "not alignment indicative". Of course self meta-ing is scummy. Especially when completely unprompted like that.

- Scum tries to act town
- People still read him as scum
- Scum is all "WTF yo. I'm totally acting like I'm towm. Lemme show you"

[Calvary]

The point is kush wants town points for playing differently than his last scum game while I'm merely pointing out that is exactly what I'd expect scum kush to do.

Do you agree or disagree with this? Who do think is scum, and why no vote? Ur predecessor replaced out in unusual circumstances so ur coming in with a scum lean in my point of view. So offer me something other than trying to critique my scum hunting abilities, which I can guarantee are far superior to urs.

Commenting on the previous game isn't telling in my opinion. People draw comparisons between their games as a defense all the time. He's spent a lot of his time defending his posts, however, and being that focused on yourself is scummier than merely discussing their meta.

I'll be posting some reads later as I've only skim-read parts of the game. Not voting yet for the same reason.

Replacements are never indicative of alignment, why would you even think that?

I wasn't 'critiquing' your scum-hunting abilities, I was asking how it helps because I do not see the value of hypothetical 'if you're scum' questions, nor some unwarranted snobbery about your skill.

I also like how Calvary tries to hint in his "b)" above like that would be a bad thing for town: lynching the weak link in the scum team.

News flash, a scum lynch day 1 is ALWAYS optimal to a town lynch.

News flash: We don't know wherever Lapsa is actually scum or not. I don't think he's the best candidate to focus on, given how obviously terrible his behaviour is.

[nnn_thekushmountains]

But also there was another omgusy aspect to my question to Jake. It seems suspiscious that he suspects me, given how differently I acted last game when I was scum.

We know that you were aware pregame that jake was in this game with you because in post 1 of the game u told him how excited you were to be playing with him.

So hypothetical question, if you had drawn another scum role and jake was not on ur scum team, would you have acted the same way as u did ur last game together? Or would you go out of ur way to mix up ur play style to throw him off ur scent.

All hypothetical of course...

You make a good point. If I were scum, I might approach the game like I dont have a lot of time or don't care, to disguise my mafia burnout. And I was somewhat try hard and serious last game so I would try to get townpoints from that contrast, as I am doing now.

So there are parts of our meta we can change, but also parts we can't. For instance, I would easily be able to read my own alignment, because I know myself. I was hoping Jake would have gotten to know me from that one game enough to townread me.

The more I write about it, the more presumptuous I sound to myself. It would be unfair to scumread him for not knowing my meta from that one game (we've had more games but they were years ago). But what makes me suspicious is that I don't see any thought process comparing my play to that last game. If someone is acting like a completely different person, tonally and content-wise, wouldn't that make you pause and say hmmm?

[nnn_thekushmountains]

Let me clarify, I don't have a scumread on Jake. I just thought asking that question was prudent, and part of me wanted Jake to be my white knight.

I think I might be Jake's biggest fan. The admiration is certainly one-sided, though. I played two games with Jake during my early, formative mafia years. We even had a PM conversation after the games. That interaction has had a huge effect on the mafia player I am today. After this last game, I PMed Jake again, but he ignored me.

So my desperation for acknowledgement from Jake has certainly colored my read on him. But I have recognized this and adjusted for it.

Final verdict: light townread on Jake.

[nnn_thekushmountains]

Also my name is Jake IRL so that coincidence deepens our bond.

[Mr Meeseeks]

omg Kush could scum-claim right now and Mr Meeks would be all "not alignment indicative". Of course self meta-ing is scummy. Especially when completely unprompted like that.

- Scum tries to act town
- People still read him as scum
- Scum is all "WTF yo. I'm totally acting like I'm towm. Lemme show you"

- town has played as scum with a player before and is playing differently because theyre town
- that other player is still scumreading them
- town is all like "wtf yo, youve played with scum me and it was totally different, remember"?

SELF META IS NOT FUCKING SCUMMY FOR FUCK'S SAKE

sorry i had to get that out of my system because i am sick and bloody tired of it being used as a scumtell. its not. fucking deal with it.

[Mr Meeseeks]

like youve just come up with a narrative of why self-meta could come from scum, and completely disregarded the fact that it could come from town in an equally likely situation

that is not a town mindset

with both your (still largely unexplained beyond pathetically defending a few points) lapsa townread and kush scumread, the way youve gone about it makes something clear to me

you didnt read their posts and decide from that theyre town/scum

youve decided theyre town/scum and then are using posts as evidence after your decision, making many of your reads flawed, missing the alternate perspectives on a situation that town would since that doesnt fit your narrative, and generally fitting square pegs into round holes

VOTE: jarjardrinks

fuckit

lapsa can wait

[nnn_thekushmountains]

like youve just come up with a narrative of why self-meta could come from scum, and completely disregarded the fact that it could come from town in an equally likely situation

that is not a town mindset

with both your (still largely unexplained beyond pathetically defending a few points) lapsa townread and kush scumread, the way youve gone about it makes something clear to me

you didnt read their posts and decide from that theyre town/scum

youve decided theyre town/scum and then are using posts as evidence after your decision, making many of your reads flawed, missing the alternate perspectives on a situation that town would since that doesnt fit your narrative, and generally fitting square pegs into round holes

VOTE: jarjardrinks

fuckit

lapsa can wait

I'm sorry, dude! I feel bad suspecting you, because you defended me so hard.
But this feels fake.

youve decided theyre town/scum and then are using posts as evidence after your decision

[nnn_thekushmountains]

whoops i didn't finish that... can you explain where that quote is coming from at the end?

also why cant you accept that some town think self meta is scummy? you yourself said you re tired of people thinking that.

also it's not like that's the only point against me.

[Mr Meeseeks]

the quote is basically saying

rather than how town make reads - ie read their posts and view from there

i feel like jarjar is scum who has decided that, to push the game to where he wants, he has to have a townread on lapsa and a scumread on you

so, his reads and reasons look artificial, because hes coming up with the reasons

after

deciding he wants the players to be pushed as town/scum


i can accept that some town think self-meta is scummy - but to push a narrative like that whilst completely ignoring the equally likely town possibility for selfmeta (that is to say, acting like only scum selfmeta) is not the attitude of a player who is seriously thinking about your alignment

[acryon]

Funny that you just posted this kush, because I was just about to say how I was initially annoyed by Meseeks and it felt like he wasn't being helpful, but am now really warming to him. He's fighting against people scumreading people for cookie-cutter scum reasoning, which is great because the game is a lot more complex than that. I feel like every game I have to get in an argument with someone about how we are looking for intent, not the person racking up the most boiler-plate scumtells.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah, that's why I voted him. The reads feel really fake and I feel like he picked reads and is trying to defend them after the fact more than any real development.

[acryon]

I'll admit that JarJar does actually look worse to me than kush right now. Although I still think Lapsa is the worst.

[Mr Meeseeks]

ill be honest

im not exactly townreading kush, at most a very very slight townlean, im having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess

but im fairly certain that jarjardrinks is scum and lapsa is a large scumread and my main candidate for third scum is i am innocent

and right now, jarjar and innocent are pushing kush, who is the counterwagon to lapsa

so by pure associatives of my more confident reads, im gonna go for a "nah" on him being scum

[nnn_thekushmountains]

I've been playing since like 2013, so I'm not a newbie.

[nnn_thekushmountains]

Funny that you just posted this kush, because I was just about to say how I was initially annoyed by Meseeks and it felt like he wasn't being helpful, but am now really warming to him. He's fighting against people scumreading people for cookie-cutter scum reasoning, which is great because the game is a lot more complex than that. I feel like every game I have to get in an argument with someone about how we are looking for intent, not the person racking up the most boiler-plate scumtells.

There are people who are very level 1 players. It doesn't mean they are bad or dumb, it's just how they approach the game. I would describe jarjar as level 1 but very insightful at the same time.

youve decided theyre town/scum and then are using posts as evidence after your decision, making many of your reads flawed, missing the alternate perspectives on a situation that town would since that doesnt fit your narrative, and generally fitting square pegs into round holes

This is from meseeks. This actually seems more like cookie cutter scum reasoning, general statements that aren't connected to specifics.

Jarjar has reasons why he's scumreading people, so just because he disagrees with those reasons is not evidence that the reasons were made up.

[JarJarDrinks]

ill be honest

im not exactly townreading kush, at most a very very slight townlean, im having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess

WHAT!?!?

VOTE: Mr Meeseeks

like are players not allowed to agree with the reasons of other players or what

what he has done does not appear to go anything beyond agreeing with someone elses reason and then voting on it

and if that is a scumtell then, well, thats fucking stupid

im sorry its hard to work out what player is being talked about when they exclusively fucking referred to as whathisname

i mean, he said right in that post that he voted because he agreed with jarjardinks points so idk what youre saying

im not saying it was an amazing unrivalled vote, im saying he voted because he agreed with someone elses point as kush has said many times, and acting like that is inherently a bad thing is just silly

that the kush wagon is largely mislead

i dont think that anything he has done at this point is clearly scummy. like, sure hes done some slightly stupid and dim things. but the main points against him i disagree with - see particularly the accusations of him arguing with little reasons etc etc that i disagreed with

i havent seen a convincing case on him beyond "oooh i dont really like this one thing that could be a town mistake i guess but ehh its an easy vote", and definitely no justification for a wagon as big as it is now so soon in the game. it looks like people voting for convenience and going with the crowd as much as anything else, although idk if crowding is really a scum thing or a mislead town thing, but id definitely guess at one scum on there

"town with you" =/= "both town"
"town with you" = "im town and playing with you"
use basic damn reading skills because im getting more and more interested in voting you as every post goes on, you accuse a player of "lurking out" when you have literally a single more post then them and i could just as easily accuse you of lurking out to wait for their wagon to build, and it wouldnt take much effort to find more scummy things in your four existing posts that existed at the time of this
the more i read your kush posts, the more they feel like trying to find any excuse to scumread a player rather than actually scumreading them, you can go up and be my third place scumread now, after Lapsa and acryon

Real talk: there's been a lot more activity so far than I was prepared for. So I kinda just did some dumb **** to be invovled. I'm going need some time before I can read everything closely and have good opinions.

Oh and for the record kush has been trying to defend himself/do damage control.

Consider me unimpressed.

defending yourself is not a scumtell
defending yourself is not a scumtell

VOTE: lapsa

anything to get rid of that awful kush wagon

- Calling Jake town

Hi Jake from State Farm. Excited to be town with you this time.

His explaination was basically that he worded it poorly. But really, what other explianation could he give?

And like, that wasn't even how he responded untill people starting getting on him about it. His first response was trying to sweep it under the rug and pretending that people were getting on him about saying he was excited.

The reason why I was excited it because it was scum last game and I do not like being scum.

Total misdirection.

as have stated before, disagree with this hugely. if anything, i know for a fact that scum are incredibly careful with their words and would very intentionally avoid something like that in case it was seen as a flip!

any attempt to push this as scummy comes off as unabashed, shameless opportunism to me. like seriously, this is pathetic.

ive already said that sheeping isnt a scumtell because common fucking sense

that is not lamist. like, at all.

and since your entire case seems to be based on him having read those quotes, i dont see how he sheeped bad. he read your post and skimmed over the quotes because its stuff hed already read (that is literally what quotes are, after all), thought it was good and voted, someone did a defence which he saw as not only defending your points but actually making your points look like theyd misrepresented you, and then unvoted to reconsider

SELF META IS NOT FUCKING SCUMMY FOR FUCK'S SAKE

I don't think I've ever hard-defended even a strong townlead quite like that. Let alone someone that "im not exactly townreading".

Like you've been defending him like he's fricken confirmed to you all game and now all of a sudden you're trying to figure out if its "slight newbieness and actual scumminess"???

[JarJarDrinks]

im having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess

Like all game you've said over and over that none of these things he's done are scummy.

- Defending yourself isn't scummy
- SHeeping isn't scummy
- self-meta'ing isn't scummy
- Scum aren't loose w/ their words like kush was

So your post is complete bullshit. You shouldn't be having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess cause you've been telling us that he hasn't done anything scummy.

It's not like you've been like "Naw guys, he's just being all noobish". You've been attacking everyone that's went after kush and calling their reasoning shit.

[Fire Assassin]

It feels like I haven't posted in here in a long time.
Time to read what I have missed.

[JarJarDrinks]

leaning on acryon scum and not a huge lapsa fan, i believe that garmr is probably town but just struggling a little, and that the kush wagon is largely mislead

3/4 of those could be seen by looking at my iso

so good job asking a useless question in an attempt to look useful

im gonna look more closely at you though as the game unfolds

In Disney world with my family right now so screw you. Clouds opened up tonight and just poured on us, so yeah I'm pretty grumpy and don't care for ur mudslinging about my "attempt to look useful." Ur defense of kush is noted, and most those other reads I'm not impressed with either. So when kush flips scum guess who I'm coming after next. U want to go 1 vs 1 with me, I'll eat u alive dude...

wow

i think someone's town

who you think is scum gosh im so scared of your threat.

[acryon]

@Mod

I'll be V/LA until morning CST on the 25th. I'll have varying levels of availability, but should be fairly available to post at least for the next few days.[/b]

[Mr Meeseeks]

a very very slight townlean

good reading skills jarjar it wasnt as if i said i townreaded him a bit in the SAME FUCKING POST YOU QUOTED

[Mr Meeseeks]

I've been playing since like 2013, so I'm not a newbie.

oops, i assumed you were a newbie-newbie by joindate, but let me elaborate more precisely what i mean

theres a general play style that can be associated with people who arent as good with the game, particularly those who are new but not exclusively. i dont like the term village idiot, but the kind of people who are easy mislynches for scum because they do slightly odd things every now and again and sometimes word things in a way that can be easily attacked. your play is falling into that for me right now.

[Mr Meeseeks]

im having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess

Like all game you've said over and over that none of these things he's done are scummy.

- Defending yourself isn't scummy
- SHeeping isn't scummy
- self-meta'ing isn't scummy
- Scum aren't loose w/ their words like kush was

So your post is complete bullshit. You shouldn't be having trouble distinguishing between some slight newbieness and actual scumminess cause you've been telling us that he hasn't done anything scummy.

It's not like you've been like "Naw guys, he's just being all noobish".

You've been attacking everyone that's went after kush and calling their reasoning shit.

that shit aint scummy though. its null.

who cares whether or not im townreading kush. shitty reasoning is shitty. simple as that. i will attack shitty reasoning if its the only reasoning used to vote someone, and your reasoning has been exceedingly shitty.

this statement is also pretty rich from someone who is townreading lapsa and was desperately trying to get a wagon off lapsa but still hasnt given a single fucking reason why lapsa is town despite prompting from multiple players.

also, bullshit in bold. there are three people voting lapsa right now and of them im scumreading one heavily and have my eye on the other, but when there were six people voting him i didnt "go after" all of them like you imply like im chainsawing the shit out of a scumpartner.

[Mr Meeseeks]

This is from meseeks. This actually seems more like cookie cutter scum reasoning, general statements that aren't connected to specifics.

nah, its not. thats a particular line of reasoning that never comes across from town, because town forms reads from reasons. sure, its a vague statement that encompasses a whole group, just like other reasons, but unlike, say, lurking and sheeping, this thing is pretty much scum-exclusive. the only time town does it is when tunneling, and even then the initial scumread at the least does come from reasoning. jarjar does not give off that impression to me.

Jarjar has reasons why he's scumreading people, so just because he disagrees with those reasons is not evidence that the reasons were made up.

a lot of his reasons for you, as i said, are either non-alignment indicative and he has not considered the possibility of it coming from town (not the mindset of someone seriously thinking about someones alignment), or fitting square pegs into round holes, where he comes up with reasoning that doesnt actually quite fit your actions

his scumread on you looks fake and forced