Mini 1770: College Mafia! (Game Ovah)

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Is it common to ignore someone voting for you, even in RVS? Was Jeanne's joke so bad that it didn't warrant a response?

Question for anyone: How much of an influence do themes have on mechanics on this site? From 1 (re-skin of normal game) to 10 (go wild with imagination about roles/mechanics possibilities). I am only asking because this is the first themed game I play on MS and I'd like some site-meta and/or host-meta.

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Is it common to ignore someone voting for you, even in RVS? Was Jeanne's joke so bad that it didn't warrant a response?

Question for anyone: How much of an influence do themes have on mechanics on this site? From 1 (re-skin of normal game) to 10 (go wild with imagination about roles/mechanics possibilities). I am only asking because this is the first themed game I play on MS and I'd like some site-meta and/or host-meta.

VOTE: zefiend

We don't know until roles are out. Not liking the early rolefish. Convince me you shouldn't be expelled so I can protect my cute adorable children.

~Titus

Let me try to clarify my question. On mafiascum, how much variance is there between the mechanics of normal games and theme games, on average? and/or For anyone who has participated in games with Aeronaut hosting, how variant are his setups, on average?

Could you explain how you construed my question as rolefishing?

@ɀefiend
are you an alt?

-Dwlee99

I am not an alt. I had an account on MS in 2010 and played 2 newbie games. Then I lost that account info and made this account in 2013 and played 1 newbie and 1 normal game. Overall I have been playing mafia for 7 years, on and off (mostly on another site or IRL).

[ɀefiend]

What defines the end of RVS to you? You said you had town reads but didn't mention scum reads, which means you still have to place your vote somewhere, or do something else to continue getting reads. If RVS ends when you just get a couple of reads and everybody stops doing things, the game is just going to stagnate.

I consider the end of RVS to be when someone has starts making a serious push, I;e in this case NH attacking Zefiend for rolefishing.
I already stated that I was waiting to see where NH went with that specific push when the massive wagon formed so I questioned it.

I'm trying very hard to understand the dynamics of this post. I see two things that could possibly be worrisome but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to try to explain.

1. If you consider the end of RVS to be when someone starts making a serious push, could you explain this statement?

(Why do people always end up calling me Cakey on every forum I go to?)

I've gotten a couple townreads already so yeah we're out of RVS successfully.

(my italics for emphasis.)
Do you mean:

A, therefore B.
A cannot happen if B is happening. A happened, therefore B is no longer happening.
or something else?

2. NH's push on me appears to be tabled or scrapped at this moment. Besides asking one question to one Head of NH, you haven't mentioned their Zefiend-push since then. Yet, you used the reasoning that you were interested in seeing where it was going to slow down the massive wagon? Furthermore, what is wrong with a simultaneous Zefiend-push by NH and massive-wagon by others? FYPOV, why should wagoning on one player (massive) be contingent on the resolution of a different push (NH on me)?

[ɀefiend]

Prod received. (Typically not on ont he weekends- sorry guys).

Anyways,

Vote: ɀefiend

What kind of character is that?

Swish z.

[ɀefiend]

@BBT: I am not opposed to policy-lynching Firebringer, either. But there is plenty of time to decide that. For now, I'm interested in the SC-Firebringer connection and the possible WKing theory floating about. I need to see how certain things develop.

[ɀefiend]

What defines the end of RVS to you? You said you had town reads but didn't mention scum reads, which means you still have to place your vote somewhere, or do something else to continue getting reads. If RVS ends when you just get a couple of reads and everybody stops doing things, the game is just going to stagnate.

I consider the end of RVS to be when someone has starts making a serious push, I;e in this case NH attacking Zefiend for rolefishing.
I already stated that I was waiting to see where NH went with that specific push when the massive wagon formed so I questioned it.

I'm trying very hard to understand the dynamics of this post. I see two things that could possibly be worrisome but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to try to explain.

1. If you consider the end of RVS to be when someone starts making a serious push, could you explain this statement?

(Why do people always end up calling me Cakey on every forum I go to?)

I've gotten a couple townreads already so yeah we're out of RVS successfully.

(my italics for emphasis.)
Do you mean:

A, therefore B.
A cannot happen if B is happening. A happened, therefore B is no longer happening.
or something else?

2. NH's push on me appears to be tabled or scrapped at this moment. Besides asking one question to one Head of NH, you haven't mentioned their Zefiend-push since then. Yet, you used the reasoning that you were interested in seeing where it was going to slow down the massive wagon? Furthermore, what is wrong with a simultaneous Zefiend-push by NH and massive-wagon by others? FYPOV, why should wagoning on one player (massive) be contingent on the resolution of a different push (NH on me)?

1. What is A and what is B?

2. The Zefiend push was unrelated to the massive wagon. I said I wanted to see what NH was doing with the push and how you would react before evaluating it, since it looked like there was evidence to back it up. Massive wagon had nothing to support it so I questioned it. The massive wagon and zefiend push had no correlation here.

1. A is "I (SC) got a couple townreads." and B is "We're getting out of RVS."

2. I know that the massive-wagon and Zefiend-push have no correlation

per se

, but you typed these two things congruently on two different occasions, which means that you are associating them at some level:

...
I already stated that I was waiting to see where NH went with that specific push when the massive wagon formed so I questioned it.

And also earlier, here (context is BBT questioning your questioning of the massive-wagon):

Not necessarily. I was forming town reads and I was waiting to see where Night Hunters was going with their Zefiend push.

Can you see how given the above statements I could construe this to understand that your reasoning (at least partially) for questioning the massive-wagon is because you were waiting to see where NH's Zefiend-push went?

[ɀefiend]

For 1, I meant A, therefore B. That was less complex then I thought.

Well, I believe our discussion is suffering due to the limited clarity one can convey in a message over the internet. But I will admit that your responses and line of thinking have remained consistent, so I am happy with the exchange.

The cakey wagon has kind of died out, a lot of you want either a Fire policy lynch or a Gl scum lynch, and seen as he voted for me basically for agreeing with someone else:

VOTE: GL

This is setting off loads of alarm bells.

Same.

Vote: tojam

.

[ɀefiend]

Also, I am against a Fire policy lynch. Either you think he's scum or you don't, we're not going to give everyone convenient excuses to join a wagon

without trying to play the game

. Policy lynches are terribly anti-town.

Do you see the irony in italics here?

[ɀefiend]

Also, I am against a Fire policy lynch. Either you think he's scum or you don't, we're not going to give everyone convenient excuses to join a wagon

without trying to play the game

. Policy lynches are terribly anti-town.

Do you see the irony in italics here?

If you are saying I am not playing the game I think you can't read....like at all.

Not playing the game = Not Posting.
If your posting your playing.

And I have been scumhunting so don't even go there.

Sure, you have been in attendance every day. But you will still get an F in scumhunting this semester. [/theme joke]

The majority of your posts are fluff, unsubstantiated reads, or defeatist statements attempting to explain your attitude. Also, unrelated to BBT's policy, I will policy lynch defeatists who say they don't care if they get lynched. Better off to never have even joined the game with an attitude like that.

[ɀefiend]

Do you see the irony in italics here?

Is that supposed to imply that Firebringer isn't playing the game? If so, what gives you that impression?

My point was just that policy lynches give everyone an excuse to not scumhunt. I don't think BBT is scummy for suggesting it but it's a bad idea regardless.

See the above post.

As I pointed out earlier, I am not suggesting we policy lynch immediately and call it a day. I am stating that if worse comes to worse towards the end of the day, I will be happy to fall back on a policy lynch candidate.

[ɀefiend]

That's cute.

I guess I'm gonna have to lynch you.

You can have until tomorrow though because I'm busy right now.

I like your level of arrogance, but I don't consider that "town"

Your actions so far, are pretty anti town

or at least neutral.

Keep saying that you must lynch me.

Cause thats really shows you are trying to scumhunt.

Coming from someone who claimed PR unprovoked.

At least your last few posts have generated some useful content compared to earlier in the game. But I believe you will have to look elsewhere because BBT actually has been trying to scumhunt, IMO.

[ɀefiend]

...

Altogether, it was mostly justifiable claims about his play so far, but nothing convincing and certainly easy enough reasons for someone to fake a scumread over. And then you have all the subsequent posts like this:

I agree with BBT, SC has had a weird change in heart and only in less than a day. VOTE: SC

and this:

You have no scum reads, and don't want to continue wagoning people....yep, I'm good with this wagon.

VOTE: SirCakez

and this:

For now, I'm interested in the SC-Firebringer connection and the possible WKing theory floating about. I need to see how certain things develop.

and this:

In any case, I don't find it a reason to townread SirCakez

and it all reads together like a lot of action on the sidelines around SirCakez, where I believe there is a better chance of scum posturing than there is of SC being scum (by sheer probability). That's why I get suspicious of the early wagons and why I'd rather investigate the voters instead of the voted.

Let's discuss this, shall we?

1. I had not noticed tojam's early vote on SirCakez til this post and I went back and re-read. After seeing it and realizing that his next post is hopping from SC to you, I find this wishy-washy and certainly potential posturing against town!SirCakez. It gives me a town-lean on you and SirCakez because tojam's latest post(s?) have not changed my mind that he's scummy. Would you agree with this assessment?

2. What do you think of shaddowez' post 214? Lots of good questions and content. How does this post and other shaddowez actions fit into your posturing investigaton?

3. Since I never actually voted for SirCakez, did my exchange with him give you the impression that I was pushing him? If you have time to read all of it, what is your over-all take-away from both our stances during the exchange and how does my behavior fit into your posturing investigation?

4. This looks like possible shadow-casting. Would you agree? massive has been getting stronger on my scumdar and if SirCakez is town I definitely see the alleged posturing here.

[ɀefiend]

Welp, I don't know what to say and sound rational.

I will keep my vote where it is. I feel comfortable with it.

So we can assume that this is ... not rational?

Would you mind providing your top scum-read so far with reasons? Your vote is currently sitting on a claimed PR and I think everyone would appreciate some more meaningful content from you.

[ɀefiend]

Alright! I have officially caught up on the game!

Reads thus far:
Scum Leans: Cake, ToJam, Zeif
Town Leans: NH, FB, Shadow, BBT

VOTE: Cakey

Would you like to talk about these reads in more detail?

I can understand why you lean scum on SirCakez, although I do not agree. I definitely agree with your scum-lean on tojam. However you are the first person to openly read me as scummy if I'm not mistaken. Please expound.

How are you arriving at NH, Firebringer, and BBT all at town-leans given the current dynamics of the game? Namely, BBT has called out NH, and Firebringer seems to think there is one scum in NH/BBT. Also, given that GuiltyLion is a large part of the current focus with these players, where do you lean on him and why?

[ɀefiend]

How are you arriving at NH, Firebringer, and BBT all at town-leans given the current dynamics of the game? Namely, BBT has called out NH, and Firebringer seems to think there is one scum in NH/BBT. Also, given that GuiltyLion is a large part of the current focus with these players, where do you lean on him and why?

Why are you proposing that NH/Fire/myself cannot all be town?

I'm not. Aristophanes specifically mentioned y'all three as town-leans and I wanted an explanation that accounted for dissenting opinions among you guys. I was pretty satisfied with his answer.

I will try to catch up with everything else after work today, but for now VOTE: Unvote.

[ɀefiend]

You questioned how he arrived at the reads - that leads me to believe you disagree with them because if you thought it was possible then you wouldn't have questioned it.

You are mistaken about the last part. I will question anyone about anything whether I think it's possible or not and whether I agree with their reasoning or not. I am interested in the thought process behind reads regardless of my stance on them.

[ɀefiend]

Let's discuss this, shall we?

1. I had not noticed tojam's early vote on SirCakez til this post and I went back and re-read. After seeing it and realizing that his next post is hopping from SC to you, I find this wishy-washy and certainly potential posturing against town!SirCakez. It gives me a town-lean on you and SirCakez because tojam's latest post(s?) have not changed my mind that he's scummy. Would you agree with this assessment?

2. What do you think of shaddowez' post 214? Lots of good questions and content. How does this post and other shaddowez actions fit into your posturing investigaton?

3. Since I never actually voted for SirCakez, did my exchange with him give you the impression that I was pushing him? If you have time to read all of it, what is your over-all take-away from both our stances during the exchange and how does my behavior fit into your posturing investigation?

4. This looks like possible shadow-casting. Would you agree? massive has been getting stronger on my scumdar and if SirCakez is town I definitely see the alleged posturing here.

3. Your initial exchange with him did give me the impression that you were setting yourself up to move there, particularly "I see things that are worrisome but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say if they want to look like they're scumreading someone but don't want to jump on yet while everyone else is doing their dirty work.

I also didn't understand how your question about the logical train of thought (A therefore B) would uncover anything alignment indicative, and I wanted to see where you took that, but then you dropping the conversation left the exchange overall rather null for me. Can you explain how this lead you to townread SirCakez?

Thank you for answering all my questions so diligently.

You are correct; I was indeed setting myself up to move to the SirCakez wagon. Rather than come out swinging with an argument based on presumptions, I wanted to have more evidence to lead a push distinct from the other people going after him for, IMO, shaky reasoning. My goal from the exchange was to find out whether there were discrepancies in SirCakez' statements and to see if he would backpedal on any of them. He did not, so I backed off and currently have no pressing suspicion of him.

[ɀefiend]

How can you expect us to follow you when you haven't really done anything to justify yourself?

Because it's a good wagon, I'm a forceful personality, and I have presented a valid case to anyone who can understand it. And if you can't, eh, maybe as the wagon gets bigger you'll bandwagon on general principle. Do you have a town read on him? If not - it's already a decent wagon, and will only get better if I do get some bodies, and looking at the playerlist I suspect at least a few will either understand me, or grok the meta reality of how serious I am and at least sheep on that.

You went from calling Firebringer a mild town read to adamantly voting for him. I cannot try to understand reasoning that is non-existent. Please, present your case, preferably without any more ethos appeals.

[ɀefiend]

I have full intention to vote for massive but I will not be placing him at L-1 until we hear from Aristophanes, shaddowez, and Jeanne, and until Thor fully acclimatizes into the game.

[ɀefiend]

Ooh Cakey wagon coming back.

It really isn't.

You're helping scum push a counter-wagon. Stop it.

Who is the scum in this scenario? Aristophanes?

[ɀefiend]

Prodging, been hella busy at work but I will catch up with everything tomorrow.

[ɀefiend]

Just did quick ISOs of my top suspects.
Would like to lynch: Aristophanes, shaddowez, or Jeanne
Will lynch: massive
Will not lynch: Firebringer, tojam, NightHunters, or kirroha on account of claimed PR
If it matters/helps in the future, my belief in the claims, in order from most believable to least believable is NightHunters, kirroha, tojam, and Firebringer.
Will not lynch: BBT, SirCakez, or GuiltyLion on account of having a town-read on them
Will not lynch: Thor on account of being a useful null-read

So I will VOTE: Aristophanes in case I cannot get back online in time for further developments.

[ɀefiend]

Looking at the final vote count I am going to make the not-so-crazy guess that

all

the scum were actually on the tojam wagon. Final vote count for reference:

Spoiler: vote count

VC 1.22

VC 1.22

(With 13 students still enrolled, it's 7 to Lynch!)

[L-5] Aristophanes

- GuiltyLion, ɀefiend
[L-7] BlueBloodedToffee -

[L-6] Firebringer -

Thor665
[L-7] GuiltyLion -
[L-7] Jeanne11 -
[L-7] kirroha -
[L-7] massive -

[L-5] Night Hunters -

BlueBloodedToffee, tojam2
[L-7] Thor665 -
[L-7] shaddowez -

[L-6] SirCakez -

kirroha

[LYNCH] tojam2 -

massive, Aristophanes, Night Hunters, shaddowez, SirCakez, Jeanne11, Firebringer

[L-7] ɀefiend -

Not Voting

-

Mod Notes:

Tojam2 has been lynched!

Final Exams begin

right now! Oh no you didn't study!

Re-reading kirroha, her defense of people who claimed/crumbed PRs feels very townie to me.

Re-reading GuiltyLion, his thought process/reads are almost identical to mine which puts me at ease. He was defensive of tojam in a sincere, frustrated way, and is also skeptical of the NightHunters claim based on logic.

Finally, everything in my brain tells me Thor is town, especially the fact that he was in support of No-Lynch over tojam. My gut is somewhat paranoid because he seems like a strong, aggressive player. Since this is only Day 2 I will ignore my gut for now.

So for me, right now, it's a PoE between massive, Aristophanes, NH, shaddowez, SirCakez, Jeanne, and Firebringer.

I am very disappointed that a tojam lynch happened because it means that some townies are actually bad enough to lynch a claimed PR on day 1 when there were clearly better lynches.

VOTE: Jeanne absolutely looks like scum for swooping in at the last minute while not having done jack-all the rest of the day.

@shaddowez, why are you WIFOM-ing so hard on the BBT kill? If NH is legit, maybe he wasn't killed because scum is scared of a protective role. In my opinion, BBT was killed for being universally town-read. BBT was never going to be lynched, which would be a serious obstacle for scum.

[ɀefiend]

So for me, right now, it's a PoE between massive, Aristophanes, NH, shaddowez, SirCakez, Jeanne, and Firebringer.

So just to be clear - your PoE is the entirety of the tojam wagon. That means you think no scum stayed off the wagon, right?

Looking at the final vote count I am going to make the not-so-crazy guess that

all

the scum were actually on the tojam wagon.

@shaddowez, why are you WIFOM-ing so hard on the BBT kill? If NH is legit, maybe he wasn't killed because scum is scared of a protective role. In my opinion, BBT was killed for being universally town-read. BBT was never going to be lynched, which would be a serious obstacle for scum.

Is one line explaining my thought process WIFOM-ing "so hard"? I won't deny there's a little WIFOM there as it's speculation, but it's not like I'm fighting for it, using it as my only argument, or that it's so far fetched it's not even possible.

As a sidenote, I'm still waiting on NH to tell me what they saw when they followed me. Based on their followup questions to me, I'm pretty sure they're not legit.

I counted more than one line.

I actually find it hard to believe that an admitted tracker wouldn't have been NKed over somebody who crumbed, but never actually said they were a PR let alone what type of role they may have.

With the amount of PR claims/crumbs in this game, I actually find the BBT kill unsurprising because 1) he was obv-town and 2) casting doubt on PRs worked so well for scum on Day 1.

so offing him before he could get any more arguments would be a smart play.

Or kill him to imply that scum!NH would want him dead to avoid arguing with a strong player. Pure WIFOM here.

but like I already said that doesn't make sense why they'd be alive over BBT if they actually are town

Here you

explicitly

use the argument that a claimed PR is still alive and therefore must be scum because there is no way they'd survive. More WIFOM.

So I would disagree with your assertion that

it's not like I'm fighting for it, using it as my only argument

because presently it is the only argument you have brought forth. I am aware that both you and NH want each other to play your cards first, but casting shadows without anything but speculation is not helping. If you have something concrete, bring it to the table.

[ɀefiend]

Prodge. At SXSW currently. I will give this game some devotion when I get done tonight.

[ɀefiend]

Ugh I didn't even get to do anything on day 2. And now getting prodded on day 3. I need some time to retread and gather my thoughts.

[ɀefiend]

Alright, I've thoroughly reread and there's a lot I would like to talk about before a lynch goes through, since we have plenty of time. And I don't think massive will quick hammer. I'd like to hear anyone and everyone's thoughts.

1. Is it possible Thor died in one action due to a non-bullet kill like knife or poison? Or perhaps there is mafia power that ignores protection of all types? Who really believes Thor was shot twice? If you do, can you explain the scenarios involving factions where this is likely?

2. To clarify, Aristophanes hasn't actually claimed anything, but NH is saying that he was informed by the mod that Aristophanes neighborized him? If that's so, why can't Firebringer confirm or deny this if he and NH are in the same neighborhood?

3. Shadow was a town neighborizer. If Aristophanes confirms that he did neighborize NH and FB, that makes him likely scum neighborizer. Is it mechanically possible for scum to recruit people on their own team? Depending on this basis, does that make it more likely that NH/FB are aligned with each other? Or more likely that one of them could be part of a second scumteam? If Aristophanes denies that he's a neighborizer altogether, then obviously one of him/NH is scum, but what does that mean for FB?

4. The whole "there must be 3 roleblocker or GL is ascetic theory"... why does FB's claim that he jailed Jeanne (who claims VT) require the presence of a third roleblocker? On a related note, why would a jail keeper (and since someone mentioned it) and/or a tracker need to be enabled? And how can we distinguish between blocked results and unenabled actions without being bastardized by the mod? Last point on this subject,

with the mod error basically confirming Shadow's story (but not necessarily NH's role),

why the FUCK did NH, and everyone else voting him, stick with the Shadow lynch yesterday??

5. Why was there only one death N1 and two deaths N2? Does this suggest a limited SK, more BPs, a double kill on BBT, or something else. I want to hear all the theories.

[ɀefiend]

Massive who are you thinking about voting?

[ɀefiend]

The shadowez flip makes me lean heavily towards Aristo being scum because I can't see why there would be two town neighborizers. I don't think aristo has directly addressed this or provided an explanation, either.

What I'm failing to understand is why NH can't believe that FB could be scum if FB is lying about his role/who he blocked as scum blocker. Am I missing something or is it not possible where NH and GL are both town?

The same from FB's perspective, he and GL can both be town if NH is inventing his role/results.

[ɀefiend]

Do both of your heads believe this is multi ball? And if so do both of you agree on the final scum?

Speccing multiball makes me paranoid of yall because it seems too desperate to make some of your theories work...

[ɀefiend]

Aristo and NIght Hunters on this wagon makes me uncomfortable.
>.>

Unless you think there's 3 roleblockers (which could explain you, GL, and NH all being town), then fypov either Aristo and NH are scum or one of them is bussing GL. So then would you rather lynch a claimed tracker or a claimed neighborizer, considering that a town neighborizer has already died? In either case you should be voting Aristophanes, unless you can explain how he's town.

[ɀefiend]

Gonna ISO everyone and post my thoughts later. Why's this game so quiet right now?

[ɀefiend]

Well I lied about re-isoing everyone, at least for now. I just wanted some life injected in the game. Now that Nahdia's here, there's no harm in letting her catch up.

FWIW, I have every intention of voting Aristo today. But I don't want some impatient person to hammer while I still feel there's stuff to talk about. Mainly, why NH keeps going on about multiball. Does multiball mean two scum teams? Or does SK qualify as a ball? Because I can buy an SK in this game, but two scum teams will require a convincing argument.

[ɀefiend]

I don't like Aristo's "let's make a deal" approach. That's not how town aims for self-preservation, IMO. For instance, why can't Aristo's flip prove something just as meaningful.

Also, something I've been meaning to ask NH: You said you know by mod error that Shadowez visited no one on the night he attempted to neighborize GL. If he was roleblocked, which seems to be the prevailing story at the moment, then this makes sense. But if GL is ascetic, wouldn't you have seen Shadowez visit GL anyway, but his action have "no result." Or is that not how Tracker/ascetic mechanics work? This is hypothetical since your actual claimed action is being blocked and getting no result, but it still has applications to the "3 blocked people in one night" scenario.

The application being that shadowez being confirmed blocked would make one of you/Firebringer almost guaranteed scum... hmm... Now I'm starting to talk myself into circles.

[ɀefiend]

2. Why not Firebringer? (and, as an addendum to this question - what are your thoughts about his nervously self-noted OMGUS on me after I claimed I caught him as scum, like, you find that the townie reaction? Y'know,

when you play as scum

and someone is like "I *know* you are scum" your immediate reaction is to vote them, laugh it off as OMGUS, and not start demanding to, y'know, ask 'why' they claim to know you're scum, since clearly they have to be wrong, and also it would be slightly psychotic for scum to try a 1 v 1 on Day 1, so...y'know, they're either incredibly bad scum you ought to be able to own, or really mistaking town you should try to sort...that's how you'd play it, right, with an OMGUS?

WTF.... Why did nobody catch this at the time?? Jesus Christ I need to reread this entire game at least twice more now...

On my current reread I am developing a hypothesis that Thor actually bussed Firebringer. Why? He brushed away Fire's claim willy nilly. He was so sure Fire was scum for no solid reasons. He made promises, repeatedly, that good things would come from a Fire lynch. He was building towncred into his posts as setup in case the Fire lynch went through.

And let's look at it from the Fire perspective. He didn't fight back Thor much at all. He claimed to JK Jeanne, but as I have always understood the Jailkeeper role, even VTs are informed when they're dragged to jail, and Jeanne herself had doubts about this action too. Then there's the reckless claim of Fire to begin with (echoing NH). And of course, the WIFOM comment about never being NK'd.

I have too many thoughts and theories running through my head right now. Someone talk to me, please.

[ɀefiend]

Even on the theory he has a PR and it is provable (neither of which I believe)
He could still be a scum PR with a provable claim - so tomorrow we still wouldn't know anything.

Maybe he'd be a scum neighborizer or something, big whoop.

Also, maybe, even if he is town,

scum have a roleblocker

, and again nothing would be proven.

The wait for proof is meaningless - the question is whether he is scummy or not.
And he is.
Did you read his reactions to my push on him? That is blatant scum reaction.

This post.
This post was made Day 1. The first bolded statement: is this a scum-crumb? Thor being flipped scum knew the fellow scum PR(s), and nobody had claimed neighborizer of any type yet. Since Shadowez is flipped town neighborizer, this makes me strongly believe Aristo is scum neighborizer.

The second bolded statement: (also WTF, how did nobody catch this?) fits perfectly with the theory that Fire is scum roleblocker claiming the perfect cover, Jailkeeper.

[ɀefiend]

NH: I need you to re-explain your 807. I don't understand, "Shadowez was supposed to be the original target" nor "fire and us were swapped..."

Sorry I can't quote things well, I'm on phone atm.

[ɀefiend]

Yeah I know what ascetic means, it's just that on other sites I used to play at, there is an important subtlety when it comes to targeting and visiting. That being, someone targeting an ascetic is still seen as visiting them (by a tracker or watcher for example) but the action garners no result. Compared with being blocked, where the person is not seen as visiting and still gets a no result. Maybe I should pm mod about this because obviously you have motivation to twist how the mechanics work if you're scum (not my prevailing thought at the moment, but I'm being careful).

[ɀefiend]

From your link:

A role attempting to visit an ascetic should be seen doing so by a tracker or motion detector.

Wow, I should have just read the wiki. So you

are

twisting things, or are confused. Because now, fypov, the mod's error confirms that Shadowez was actually blocked. Because it is more likely that the mod messed up on you being blocked, then messing up the result had you not been blocked. So fypov, Firebringer is confirmed scum and GL is not confirmed ascetic.

BAM.

[ɀefiend]

Well I still think the way the wiki is worded describes it as following a person who targeted an ascetic, you see that they visited the ascetic. But this is moot for two reasons: Aeronaut told me in PM that it doesn't work that way (in this game, at least), and we are basing a lot of our arguments on a mod error which could mean nothing.

However, when you broke it down so nicely for massive, it actually follows that #2 is more likely than #3, even though they're not exclusive of each other. But that 50/50 is not for today.

[ɀefiend]

Leaving with my thoughts on each player.

Firebringer: currently think was bussed by Thor. I trust NH more than FB and this looks like a cut and dry, opposite alignments scenario. I believe FB is probably Mafia JKer or Blocker. Lean-Scum

GuiltyLion: idk if NH has planted the seed enough times it's beginning to grow on me, but I don't trust GL completely. Something seems off, call it gut. Scummy null.

Nahdia: mediocre entrance. But Jeanne's performance was probably bored-town, too. Still, the skating by on Day 1 and coming in to lynch was sketchy. Null.

Massive: hard to trust a veteran like this guy. But I still don't think he's done anything particularly noteworthy, whether he's town or scum. Null-town.

NH: yes, I'm putting a lot of faith in choosing to accept this PR as genuine. But it's my best bet at solving the game. I don't want to play so paranoid that I go crazy. Rereading NH's posts makes me shudder to think that they and Thor could have concocted this all up. I don't wanna believe that.

SirCakez: don't completely trust this guy because he is only active when he's on the chopping block. It gives me bad vibes. Scummy null.


VOTE: Aristophanes Nothing you've said or done this game has made me think you're town. Your votes and reads give me bad juju. There's your dubious associations with Thor, and of course the whole second neighborizer thing.

[ɀefiend]

You were at L1 for a while. You could have just claimed Vig LOL.

Not the end of the world. Tomorrow is probably mylo but we will lynch anyway.

[ɀefiend]

Yeah if we misslynch today and then two kills happen at night there's possibly only two townies left vs three scum. At least this way it's probably gonna be 4v2.

[ɀefiend]

I gave intent all day today without explicitly stating, I'm ready to hammer. No need to do that for someone whose claim is already out and someone who isn't bringing anything to the table.

Vig still more believable than second neighborizer lol.

[ɀefiend]

1) you're scum so I don't remotely feel bad for hammering you.
2) if this is an etiquette issue, I gave intent to vote you multiple times. I'm not gonna sit around and wait longer than I think is fair.
3) being at L-1 and knowing someone is willing to vote you, you should have came out with your master plan a lot sooner.
4) I don't negotiate with people unless I can joint with them or its Lylo and I think it could buy another day. Neither was the case here.

[ɀefiend]

I feel your pain. Personally, I hate drawing SK.

Why did you decide to shoot Thor twice?

[ɀefiend]

Damn. Well played, then lol. Too bad you weren't an actual vig.

[ɀefiend]

Prodging in advance because I'm gonna be busy til Monday for sure.

Don't want to jump to any conclusions until I can properly analyze all the possibilities of interactions and scum teams.

[ɀefiend]

NH can we also talk about your distinct lack of results? What with the Firebringer "weird jailkeep" it makes me wonder if you guys need to re-read your role PM. How many of your blocked nights do you think are due to Fire, and how many to some unknown other RB?

I have no reason to doubt you at this moment (the "gambit" D2 is awful extensive, with unnecessary mod corrections, to risk for just one mislynch) but three nights of "we were blocked" is excessive.

N1 - We checked Shadow. Fire blocked shadow; thus blocking us.
N2/N3 - Blocked, presumably by Fire. We tried tracking Fire both nights, got no result each time.

What do you mean, "Fire blocked shadow; thus blocking us?" You explicitly said you were blocked that night.

[ɀefiend]

NH you're making a lot of assumptions about N1.
1) Fire lied about being blocked.
2) Fire lied about his target.
3) Fire's JK ability asceticizes the target.

If all these are true, then only one roleblocker in the game could explain everything. But N2, I don't think there's anyway in hell Fire lies about being blocked while trying to target Thor. This means there are two roleblockers needed to explain everything. And I don't think scum has two roleblockers.

Explain the rationale for Fire lying N1 AND N2, and link me a game where the JKer asceticizes his target.

Or die

[ɀefiend]

"No actions will work against this player, but they also will not be able to use any of their actions, if they have them."

@Aeronaut (and anyone else who could answer), does a player using an action against a jailed player receive a message that they were blocked, or just a simple "No Result?"

Need an explicit answer on this because the mod has already informed me that some mechanics in this game are different from described in the wiki.

[ɀefiend]

Mostly a prodge because weekend, etc. Maybe I should actually start using the whole V/La thing on weekends...
Massive raises a good point and I want the VCA from NH too. Maybe I'll try one as well despite being wrong about the Thor/tojam connection...

[ɀefiend]

NH is obvious town but I guess we're insisting on NL'ing and just letting them die so I don't have much to say.

How is NH obvious town? He is literally the most suspicious player in this game right now.

If NH is town, GL is almost undoubtedly ascetic mafia.
If GL is town, NH is almost undoubtedly mafia.

There is no way scum!NH shoots GL because NH will be the insta-lynch. There is no way scum!GL shoots NH because GL will the insta-lynch. Thus, neither of them will be dying tonight.

@Night Hunters

One of your heads keeps implying that both you and GL can both be town. I don't see it, at all, considering the facts and massive's point about Fire's vote for shadow. I need you to provide a game completed by Fire where he lied about his target as a town PR if you want to lend your theory even a shred of credibility.

@Massive

Man I feel kinda bad being told I'm "coasting" and "not doing much" when I'm the only one who presented a reasonable case outside of the role interactions and reliant mostly on interactions with flipped scum. I guess though that I'm easy to discredit.

-Reasonable case on who?
-If Aristophanes, he was getting lynched regardless for claiming a dead role.
-If someone else, they didn't get lynched, so why aren't you pushing this case today?
-The only flipped scum is Thor. His interactions with the SK didn't matter. What other interactions are you talking about?

[ɀefiend]

NH is obvious town but I guess we're insisting on NL'ing and just letting them die so I don't have much to say.

How is NH obvious town? He is literally the most suspicious player in this game right now.

Their efforts to solve the game are blatantly genuine.

Dear god I hope you are scum now because I don't see you playing this badly as town.

NH has been inventing a new story every time something happens that does not align with him being OBVSCUM. His current theory involves assuming a confirmed townie lied multiple times to the town, or that the scum team is overpowered.

Meanwhile, people who are actually trying to solve the game are finding it increasingly incredulous that a claimed tracker has been alive for this long and produced nothing of worth, only to flood the thread with far fetched assumptions and accusations.

NH is now trying to backpedal from the 50/50 with GL, claiming that there is a possibility that they are both town, which is rubbish. He's calling me and Cakez scum now, because he knows I scumread him, and Cakez is positioned to vote or bus him as it stands right now.

He's appealing to someone who he has called scum for the majority of the game (and indeed should be scum from his pov) for support

[ɀefiend]

I can't think of anything else I'd like to say or ask, so VOTE: No Lynch.

[ɀefiend]

One of you probably read my 1458 and the other didn't.

You have ignored every request I've made and every point I've brought up about the unlikeliest of your theories and therefore I have zero reason to believe you're town.

[ɀefiend]

Then why didn't you claim?

I'm Ramen Noodles, VT

[ɀefiend]

I also think NH is scum.

Does anyone else find it interesting that "Your Parents" and "Crippling Debt" would probably be aligned, thematically, since your parents usually incur crippling debt when you go to college?

[ɀefiend]

"Shouldnt netflix and chill be aligned thematically with crippling debt because having a child can cause crippling debt" like holy fuck dude I could do this for so many of these flavors

Netflix and chill doesn't always lead to having a child if you're using protection.

[ɀefiend]

Why does the setup HAVE to include an investigative role?

[ɀefiend]

Also, please bring forward the "conclusive evidence" that Firebringer lied. I still haven't seen it.

[ɀefiend]

Too busy right now. I'll hop on later.

[ɀefiend]

Well, this is gonna be a bombshell, but I have had a change of heart.

I believe NH is legit tracker. I believe GL is ascetic (possibly +roleblocker).

Several reasons for this:

1) At first I thought that NH was adapting the story of events to match whatever agenda he had, because of his interactions with GL, firebringer, and Jeanne. But re-reading, I think I was blinded by the fact that firebringer and jeanne (who are conf-town now) were providing logical frustrations with NH story. Now my attitude is that NH was actually coming from a "figure-everything-out" mind set. Nahdia alluded to this and I give deference to her because she replaced-in. She is conf-town and would have read things differently than me (who has been part of the game since the start).

2) I don't think Firebringer lied. He had no reason to, and both times he revealed his actions his posts were very straightforward. Here's what I think happened:
fire jails jeanne
nh tracks shadowez
shadowez neighbors GL

GL ascetic means shadowez visits no one meaning nh gets no result

fire jails thor
nh tracks fire
GL blocks fire

GL blocking fire means nh gets no result

I think GL (or his partner) blocked Fire hoping that they would stop him from interfering from with their own night kill. At that point in the game, nobody knew there was a multi-kill possibility, so mafia weren't worried about Aristo messing up their plans. The block on Fire backfired hilariously.

The above scenario explains all the actions and accounts for a RB-ing and ascetic power on the mafia side, and occam's that Fire told the truth.

3) NH's reaction to my theme-speculation. I read it as genuine townie-frustration about not being believed. Also, during my re-read I found that NH's generally frustrated tone about trying to prove himself legit tracker/explain night actions has been consistent. I don't think it's faked.


The only thing that bothers me is why shadowez was blocked. On the other hand, this WIFOM didn't enter my mind until GL mentioned it in #993.

I am still conflicted between Cakez and massive.

Rereading all the remaining players' isos has made my head hurt.

[ɀefiend]

@Zefiend, please explain how blocking Fire generates no result instead of "Fire goes nowhere"

The same way that shadowez being blocked generated a no result for you. See, if the mechanics of tracker vs. person-visiting-ascetic were crystal clear in this game as outlined in the wiki, then I wouldn't be giving you this chance. But the mod answered some of my questions about these interactions and a couple of them are not in agreement with the wiki/NAR.

Perhaps the scum roleblocker also asceticizes the target that night?

[ɀefiend]

Shadowez doesn't need to have been actively blocked to explain all the blockage, if GL is ascetic anyway.

If GL is ascetic, Shadowez gets blocked reflexively. The same night, NH is targeted by the RB'er.

The next night, it's legitimate to think that scum have more to gain (guaranteed NK barring other shenanigans) than lose (being followed to the kill) by blocking the JKer instead of the tracker.

[ɀefiend]

GL, I agree with you that Fire didn't lie. It's bizarre that NH is still trying to run with that. But Fire not lying means that the lynch today should unequivocally cross between you and NH. This is interesting because NH still has reservations about voting you, SirCakez wants to lynch massive, and massive hasn't given a firm stance on the cross yet. Basically, there's a wrench being thrown somewhere by someone and I haven't figured it out yet.

[ɀefiend]

Despite zefiend thinking that "{RB} blocking fire means nh gets no result" that's definitely NOT the Occam answer -- it's that N2 Fire claimed to have jailed Thor and NH was blocked, so Fire wasn't, and therefore Fire didn't jail Thor (who was killed). (PS have fun at Coachella)

Here's the problem with that and why Occam's Razor agrees with my line of thinking:
Fact: Fire is dead and confirmed town JK'er
Strong opinion/site meta: Town have no reason to lie, and if they do, it comes out later as a gambit/other explanation
Statement (paraphrased): "I jk'd Thor the night he died"
Conclusion: Fire's ability was blocked somehow

My answer is based on assuming a confirmed townie told the truth. Your answer is based on assuming that a confirmed townie lied AND that an unconfirmed tracker was targeted by the scum RB'er. To clarify, I believe that NH is actually tracker right now, but if the scum RB'er asceticizes their target (like a scum JK'er maybe), it explains how tracker!NH got a No Result on Fire.

[ɀefiend]

everyone continues to ignore my questions.

I'm ignoring them because they have no relevance to me... I believe you are town after re-examining everything; I don't need to be asked rhetorical questions to be further convinced.

[ɀefiend]

Are you discounting my theory that you were blocked via target by scum RB'er, and Shadowez was blocked via targeting an ascetic?

[ɀefiend]

Aristo was also visiting.

How is town blocker vs scum blocker unlikely?

Where do you currently stand with respect to NH's tracker claim? If you don't believe it then your vote today is obvious. But if you do believe it, your vote today should still be obvious UNLESS you think Fire lied. In that case you would be voting massive today? Please explain your stance regardless.

[ɀefiend]

Can one of you pinpoint the pattern of votes and explain how that makes you believe GL/SC team is not possible?

[ɀefiend]

Need to hear from massive on all this.

[ɀefiend]

Can one of you pinpoint the pattern of votes and explain how that makes you believe GL/SC team is not possible?

This still needs to be explained.

[ɀefiend]

So some things we've been thinking..
Ari gets lynched a hell of a lot faster if GL is scum
cakez being scum

This also needs to be explained.

[ɀefiend]

Also: Why does town reading someone for reevaluating a read (something scum don't have much motivation to do at this point in the game with titus and I's slot) = survivalism?

When zefiend was scumreading you, you scumread him and talk about voting him. Then when he townreads you, suddenly you townread him in return. It reads to me like you're dropping the need to crossvote as soon as it no longer looks like he may vote you, like your original scumread was out of necessity rather than a genuine belief in him being scum.

This is interesting, but what worries me is that you insinuate that a cross vote would have happened between me and NH. That sure as hell would not and will not ever happen, because you have called me town already and SirCakez currently has his sights on a NH/massive team. It is painfully obvious to anyone reading this game that scum!me does not back off NH if at least one townie is strongly supporting voting him.

[ɀefiend]

Titus does the vca, not me. Also tho I want my question answered

Titus is ignoring all my posts apparently.

And I'm getting to it, dammit.

[ɀefiend]

The town players aren't really helping

Who are you referring to here?

There are 4 days left and I'm getting the sense that you're stalling it out. Do you still think SC is scum? Do you think NH is town?

Mostly everyone. It seems like a lot of our now-proven townies were focused on other now-proven townies, or acting scummy enough that EVERYONE left alive was equally scumreading them.

I do still think SC is scum.

I don't think NH+SC make sense as a team.

Who are the "now-proven townies"? Also, you are being very non-committal about NH. If he can't be on a SC-scum team, then do you think the last scum is me or GL?

[ɀefiend]

I will make an in-depth PoE post when I get to a computer.

[ɀefiend]

Titus please come in here and answer everything that dwlee has skirted to you.

[ɀefiend]

Assumption: Scum vote in lylo when they believe they can win. We haven't seen any votes. Why? Scum don't think they can win. Who is scum reading us? Sircakez & Guiltylion. Who isn't scum reading us? Massive & Zefiend. If there is town and Sircakez and Guiltylion why haven't scum voted?

Please clarify this mumbo jumbo. If I recall correctly, you were the first one to threaten to place a vote (on me as a matter of fact).

Your recent behavior is making me very uncomfortable. If you are town you should feel bad for making me start to second guess myself.

Need massive in here, too.

[ɀefiend]

GL, I agree with you that Fire didn't lie. It's bizarre that NH is still trying to run with that. But Fire not lying means that the lynch today should unequivocally cross between you and NH. This is interesting because NH still has reservations about voting you, SirCakez wants to lynch massive, and massive hasn't given a firm stance on the cross yet. Basically, there's a wrench being thrown somewhere by someone and I haven't figured it out yet.

This post is still highly relevant, except for the fact that NH is now voting GL.

@SirCakez, do you think Fire lied about his N1 target? I haven't seen your opinion on this anywhere but feel free to link me if you've already answered it, or just answer it now. If you agree that Fire didn't lie, do you see why you should be voting either NH or GL? If you think Fire lied please provide reasoning.

@massive, your stance still seems to be that Fire lied about his N1 target although you haven't provided any concrete reasoning. I know that you would probably like to cross with SirCakez but I really need your opinion on where you lean in the NH/GL cross.

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: Night Hunters
If they are town, town's lost already.

Wow. That is such a shitty mentality to have if you're town. Can you give any better reasoning or explanation? You seemed pretty deadset on massive toDay.

[ɀefiend]

Zefiend, it should really be clear but I'll put it another way.

1) Scum need only one townie to vote to win.
2) If a town was tunneling another townie to the point of no return, scum have no reason to vote the townie to get the ball moving. It reinforces the mistaken townie AND likely triggers the townie to vote incorrectly.
3) SirCakez and GL have been posturing voting us. If either were town, the scum in Massive/Zefiend would have voted us ages ago.

I strongly prefer Cakey as I had minor doubts on GL until the recent exchanges where he failed to grab the basic concept here AND he failed to ask. When you were tunneling us, and GL then floated a vote there, it felt icky but I just didn't see the pattern.

But by the same logic:

If you are town,
And scum knows I am town pushing on you at the start of the Day,
Why doesn't scum vote town!NH when they had the chance to "get the ball rolling?"

[ɀefiend]

Can one of you pinpoint the pattern of votes and explain how that makes you believe GL/SC team is not possible?

This still needs to be explained.

So some things we've been thinking..
Ari gets lynched a hell of a lot faster if GL is scum
cakez being scum

This also needs to be explained.

^ these titus.

It's the day where Ari and GL were wagoned. If GL is scum, Ari needs to be the lynch. Why was there so much stalling in that case? There was a perfect reason to lynch Ari as he was semi-proven not town. Why would scum dicker around unless from the Scum's perspective either lynch was OK?

Do you see why I'm losing faith in you Titus? This completely falls apart now that fypov the scum team must be GL+SC or the game is over. Also, I want to mention that you answered my 1629 but not my 1628.

[ɀefiend]

The problem with your reasoning, in a nutshell, is that SirCakez was voting GuiltyLion on the Day Aristo was lynched. This doesn't preclude a SC+GL scum team because Aristo was the obvious lynch that day regardless of whether you or Nahdia were going to be persuaded. It ended up being you. There's a case to be made that scum!SC could have been avoiding the Aristo wagon if he knew Aristo was "town."

[ɀefiend]

Im here, just reading. It just sucks cause everything is coming out in the open in the last few hours instead of earlier in the Day.

Really need massive in here. Unless it's massive+NH, this game could already be over.

[ɀefiend]

Im here, just reading. It just sucks cause everything is coming out in the open in the last few hours instead of earlier in the Day.

Really need massive in here. Unless it's massive+NH, this game could already be over.

Now, this I find insulting. I've highlighted just the many ways Cakey's read was fake on day 1 and how GL was awkwardly defending him then. No one listened. Now you're stating this is just coming to your attention? Really?

What are you talking about dude? I'm well aware of GL's defense of SC. SC should have been the lynch D1 but YOU and other crumb bumbs lynched a PR instead.

"Everything coming out in the open" refers to how this major argument between you and GL is being perpetuated with a few hours to go, instead of being started at the beginning of Day.

[ɀefiend]

If NH is town this is the worst case of hydra-disagreement threatening to lose the game, ever.

[ɀefiend]

If massive doesn't come on, he's getting lynched. I will not hammer you over massive. Plain and simple. We have to assume LYLO.

SC is not voting GL. So the only possible lynches with the players we have is you or massive.

And that's only a win if the team is massive+GL.

[ɀefiend]

I agree that SC has been displaying a few town tells, but that could easily be faked for the end of Day.

The fact that he says he's willing to vote massive is helpful though.

[ɀefiend]

I'm telling Titus the logistics of the situation.

I want a GL lynch. Without massive online, that is currently impossible.

Therefore the only two possible lynches are you or massive (if SC stays true about willing to switch to massive).

I would lynch massive before you, and I think you would vote massive before yourself, so that is the state of things.

[ɀefiend]

Also I find it interesting that Titus has been hard-town-reading massive all game and yet she doesn't appeal to him for support, like ever. Example: when I was asking about your flavor being connected with mafia flavor, you burst out and pleaded to GL (who was/is/should always be conf-scum to you), "look how he treats us" instead of your hard-town-read.

Of course that could have been dwlee, but it's still a problem.

[ɀefiend]

FWIW I would also lynch SC before NH, but again that isn't currently possible.

[ɀefiend]

actually zefiend has expressed willingness to lynch all three of myself, SC, and massive in the past few hours

is a zefiend/NH team possible

SC don't vote yet. you voted massive earlier and I want to see if NH/zefiend got ruled out in that time period

Yes because I believe that lynching you, SC, or massive has a better chance of hitting scum than lynching NH.

Lynching you won't happen because massive isn't here and SC won't vote you.

Lynching SC won't happen because NH head problems, massive isn't here, AND you won't vote SC.

Lynching massive is possible.

[ɀefiend]

I will hammer massive at deadline if NH lynch is impossible, but blaming zefiend/massive for loss if this is a mislynch

How can you possibly blame me if you've been unwilling to talk about choosing between SC and massive all Day? I don't want NH lynched so if you thought I was town you should have talked to me about the other options.

[ɀefiend]

If NH is scum with massive this is still OK. Why are you getting bent out of shape? Unless you think it's NH+SC which you haven't really talked about.

[ɀefiend]

Why are you assuming SC will be killed if the game continues?

[ɀefiend]

GL, why the wakeup call on SirCakey?

I think zefiend/Nahdia are town

Therefore scumteam is in NH/massive/SC

I don't like how SirCakez is pushing you after townreading you in D2/D3. The read doesn't really seem like a natural progression to me. And I don't think generally he's been a proactive scumhunter this game. Instead of interacting with players directly, he seems to instead look at groups of people arguing and then arbitrarily picks someone in the group as scum. His scumread on me felt like it was a "you have the highest chance of getting lynched" scumread.

Do you agree with this assessment?

At what point did you realize that fypov, it has to be NH + one of them instead of lumping them altogether (considering massive+SC)?

[ɀefiend]

It could only be SC+massive if Firebringer threw the game.

[ɀefiend]

If game is over and NH was scum I'll take the blame.

[ɀefiend]

To be SC+massive means you and NH are town. Only way that's possible is if both NH and shadowez were independently blocked. NH probably by the scum blocker and shadowez by Firebringer (who claimed to have blocked Jeanne).

[ɀefiend]

inb4 it's NH + GL

[ɀefiend]

If NH is real tracker then there might be more problems with how Aero action resolution than meets the eye. I just gotta keep individual mod-metas for mechanics I guess.

And people thought I was scummy for asking about mechanics in my opening post.

[ɀefiend]

The way you guys are posting, either town is getting trolled or massive was in fact someone's partner.

[ɀefiend]

If it's SC/NH/GL in lylo tomorrow, SC must have the hammer.

[ɀefiend]

Playing to the flip is only optimal if either A) massive is scum or B) there is a possibility of hidden mechanics (like vengeful) that can be readily deduced. I think A is more likely than B.

[ɀefiend]

I don't want to be in 3-way-LYLO anyway so NH if you're scum please shoot me.

[ɀefiend]

BECAUSE I'VE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE GAME THAT THERE IS 100% PROBABILITY OF SCUM IN NH/GL UNLESS FB LIED.

If FB didn't lie, SC gets the hammer. If FB did lie, then fuck him and this game.

[ɀefiend]

If it's SC/NH/GL in lylo tomorrow, SC must have the hammer.

::@:@:@:@:@:@

Why do you think Cakey is town?

Like fuck this if Massive is scum.

I have to reread the entire thread supposing that scum were just absolutely strategy challenged which is not an assumption that jives with Thor being on a scumteam.

BECAUSE I'VE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE GAME THAT THERE IS 100% PROBABILITY OF SCUM IN NH/GL UNLESS FB LIED.

If FB didn't lie, SC gets the hammer. If FB did lie, then fuck him and this game.

[ɀefiend]

Why are you asking me a stupid question?

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Is it common to ignore someone voting for you, even in RVS? Was Jeanne's joke so bad that it didn't warrant a response?

Question for anyone: How much of an influence do themes have on mechanics on this site? From 1 (re-skin of normal game) to 10 (go wild with imagination about roles/mechanics possibilities). I am only asking because this is the first themed game I play on MS and I'd like some site-meta and/or host-meta.

VOTE: zefiend

We don't know until roles are out. Not liking the early rolefish. Convince me you shouldn't be expelled so I can protect my cute adorable children.

~Titus

Why would you post this if you were planning on crumbing your role using theme the whole game?

The disparity between dwlee and Titus heads will end up costing the game if they're town.

[ɀefiend]

The question is stupid because it doesn't matter who you track.

Track to the kill -> scum
Track to no one -> town

[ɀefiend]

@both of you: why wasn't I killed?

[ɀefiend]

OK I see why NH had to die regardless.

There are a LOT of things bothering me by both of you. I'm just gonna start cramming questions into the thread.

[ɀefiend]

I was certain in a NH/massive team, just more certain on massive
Then massive flipped Ninja and confirmed NH as town which of course leaves you as scum

since the only way you and NH were both town is if Fire lied

which I highly doubt

Is this a scum slip? FYPOV there is NO way GL and NH are both town. Furthermore, IF the only way for GL and NH to both be town was FB lying, then FYPOV you wouldn't just "doubt" it, you would claim it's impossible that he lied.

[ɀefiend]

the only way you and NH were both town is if Fire lied which I highly doubt

No, this is a false notion that I've figured out.

Aero's post:

Let's just be clear here. If there is/was a tracker in the game, they would receive NO RESULT if the player tracked is role blocked. They would also receive NO RESULT if the player is jail kept. If the player does not visit anyone, they would receive PLAYER DID NOT VISIT ANYBODY. Finally, if the tracker was blocked, then the tracker would receive NO RESULT

Obviously you must have blocked shaddowez N1 and Fire N2, who just happened to be the track targets both times. The ascetic push on me never made any sense which is why I was so certain NH was scum

I agree that an ascetic mafia existing is unlikely because alongside Ninja and 1SBP would probably be imbalanced. So +1 for you.

But this quote contradicts your general sentiment throughout the game that "why wasn't a tracker (NH) blocked?" Explain.

[ɀefiend]

I meant I highly doubted Fire lied. Fire could have lied and GL still be scum, they aren't linked now that the weird Tracker rules have been clarified.

Speaking about that, and since NH is conf-tracker, can you please detail what you think N1 and N2 looked like? Please include names, roles, and targets. I'm still trying to apply the unconventional roleblocking/tracker mechanics to this game.

@GL I would appreciate if you did this too.

[ɀefiend]

Damn I thought weekends were counted as half days. Wrong mod I guess. Been busy with work, but I'll try and get to this later tonight.

[ɀefiend]

Here are a lot of thoughts I have about the game at the moment. Feel free to pick off what you think needs responding to that will convince me.

- Neither of you have strongly scumread each other or even somewhat pushed each other til today when it became obvious you had to. Even yesterDay, SC was like certain it was NH+massive and GL was like "don't make me choose between SC and massive today, just lynch NH first." Basically, both of your progressions of reads on each other don't really add up this game.

- SC was actually willing to vote Massive pretty readily yesterday. If SC was scum with massive, he could have just parked his vote on NH. A GL lynch would win him the game (if massive came back and voted with me and NH), a NL would have won him the game (if massive simply never came back), and a SC lynch was looking pretty unlikely at the time because of the hydra disagreement, and the real/feigned reluctance of GL to vote SC (or massive).

- On the other hand, a massive lynch was happening whether GL hammered him or not, because I would hammer before letting it NL. So GL's vote on massive looks like a very redundant and regretful "bus."

- If GL's argument is that SC bussed, it wasn't a very aggressive bus. I mean, SC was calling out massive for pretty much the same reasons any townie would call him out. Massive's responses were more akin to deflection than actually trying to sell a bus.

- Both SC and GL have disturbing trajectories regarding massive. SC has a LOT of posts questioning the massive wagon/votes for massive/case against massive. Meanwhile, GL is largely distant from massive. So this is a case of whether I believe veiled chainsawing was going on or just flat out purposeful avoidance of each other.

- SC's play on D1 was catastrophic and lynch-worthy and yet this was never brought up again because all the attention surrounded the claimed PRs. This allows him a comfortable position on the sideline to pick his shots vs NH or GL as need be. I very much dislike SC's post (can't link/find it right now cuz mobile) that is basically lining up lynches via a deal with the SK, Aristo. If SC is scum then he would be very much warming to the idea of three townies being on the chopping block regardless of what happens. At the same time though, I have to wonder if mafia would rather have Aristo alive or dead at that point.

- Which brings me to GL's play on the Day Aristo was lynched. GL is adamant about lynching Aristo no matter what, although he does continue to entertain the idea that NH is probably scum. I probably need to go look at the voting patterns of everyone that day because there's something I'm probably overlooking.

Anyway that's all I can think of right now, I'll try to remember/reread later.

[ɀefiend]

GL, FB, I've got a deal for you.
I'll compromise on an NH lynch today.

If they flip town, we lynch GL tomorrow.
If they flip scum, we lynch me tomorrow.

Thoughts?

I actually kind of like this plan.

This post.

If you're scum, you saw two lynches on town being lined up (as well as Aristo, an anti-town player surviving).

If you're town, you were fine with lining up GL after NH because……? You never really gave a reason at the time.

[ɀefiend]

SC do you have a response to GL's case he posted at the beginning of the Day? The post about Shadowez etc.

Also can you try to talk about your repeated questioning of the massive wagon/votes on Day 1?

[ɀefiend]

Guess I'll drum up a VCA later tonight.

[ɀefiend]

The feeling when both the townie and the mafia ignore your big "thoughts out in the open" post...

I'm at like a 60/40 point right now.

Maybe you guys could try telling me why you're town instead of scraping up cases on each other at the last minute that didn't exist at all before toDay.

[ɀefiend]

What?

Are you claiming your scum game is so impeccable that you can effortlessly and perfectly replicate a townie post in Lylo? If you were scum, then you'd know that SirCakez is town and therefore there would have to be some portions of your attack/defense that are inherently contrived or deceptive.

NOBODY plays the exact same way as town and mafia and for you to insinuate that you would do so when asked to make arguments in 3p Lylo is very unsettling to me.

[ɀefiend]

Basically, I'm at a point where my brain says SirCakez but my gut says GL.

I reread the game and I'm certain SC is scum up until yesterDay. Then I read yesterDay and everything in my gut tells me that it must be GL based on how they both acted yesterday.

The reason why my brain says SirCakez is
-the very bad connection to massive D1
- the fact that massive would probably bus to try to do anything helpful since he knew he was useless/likely to be on the chopping block anyway
- the fact that almost all of his reads and votes throughout the game have been seemingly conjured or based on very light, subjective reasoning
- his trajectory in this game follows no natural progression or intent to solve the game; rather, his votes and opinions seem to revolve around whatever is currently going on and he hasn't really produced any independent content

The reason why my gut says GL:
- large distance from massive all game. The notion that you started a big wagon on him is false. You naked voted him and then when the wagon started to blow up you said your vote was some kind of bait or trap, but didn't expound any further. That is not a convicted push like you are trying to suggest.
- in retrospect, you were very very wrong about NH whether you're town or mafia, and looking back on the arguments you had with him in a new light has made me very suspect of you. Since NH is conftown now, I can read his posts with the understanding that he's coming from a completely townie mindset. Most of your retorts to him are denial and counter tunneling. YOU as a townie weren't ever considering that he could be town until it became necessary for you to align your views that way.
- to build on that point, your focus for most of the game up to and including yesterDay has been NH. You barely scraped the surface on massive/SC partner which I called you out on and you still didn't give a concrete reply. If SC is town, then fypov all you have to do is remain adamant about NH and either he gets lynched or a NL happens, and you win. SC on the other hand actually considers switching to massive; transition to next point
- this still has yet to be explained; if SC is scum then he can just leave his vote on NH and guaranteed win the game. Because you were tunneling NH and never giving the impression of voting massive, a massive lynch wouldn't have happened from his pov. Any other lynch or NL wins SC the game. There is no reason for scum!SC to suggest pulling the votes together for massive when he knows town!GL is willing to vote town!NH.

EVEN IF you try to make the argument, "Well zefiend you refused to vote NH so his lynch wouldn't have happened, and it came to an impasse where deadline was approaching so the only logical lynch was massive," SC STILL brought up the notion of lynching him while YOU waffled about "not wanting to guess between SC and massive today."

- the way I see it, YOUR play is more indicative of being backed up against the wall with a partner who abandoned the game during Lylo (sorry btw) than being town and trying to make the best of a tough situation. Whereas if SC was scum, I don't think he would have been so brazenly switching his vote between NH and massive. He would have locked in NH and just stuck it out.

[ɀefiend]

GL you missed the point of the question entirely. Obviously just quoting a post and saying "here, this is why I'm town" renders my question pointless.

The point of the question is to see HOW people respond to the question, and HOW they shape the argument that they're town in conjunction with the posts they dig up.

You failed to do both. Thanks for ruining it.

[ɀefiend]

Both of you need to read that wall (and possibly the other wall) and soothe my concerns.

[ɀefiend]

Let me try to explain the rationale in a different way since I actually believe it is important and not bad play at all, contrary to your beliefs.
My question "show me you're town" is a reaction test. I'm not really interested in the game content you specifically pull, because as you stated that can be seen for myself and both alignments can easily post the same quotes.
I'm more interested in HOW you respond to the question in the sense that, you're right, scum may sometimes slip up by over explaining or give themselves away by pollution of WIFOM. On the other hand, genuine townies could reaffirm their positions by introducing new observations that were previously missed, or by correlating earlier things with current things that provides new insight. THAT type of analysis is very hard to fake as scum because 1) they're informed and 2) it is very very easy to call out bullshit if they try to fabricate an argument of that nature.

The fact that you didn't even TRY and instead are trying to have a strategy/theory debate with me is VERY peculiar. You failed the reaction test hard.

[ɀefiend]

GL, you said you voted massive to see how people reacted to it. Yet, your follow up to that strategy was virtually fruitless.

Your vote on massive being naked allows you to remain flexible as if you're his partner, you can bus with some added reasoning later on

On the other hand, SC puts massive at L-2 when he didn't really need to...

Your interactions with NH look bad because (ironically) you kept using the argument, "NH isn't even considering that we could be town, therefore he's scum," when it was actually YOU who literally NEVER considered that NH could be town. You just tunneled him all game while denying his efforts to sort you out. That is why I am leaning towards the interaction being TvS.

Precisely the fact that you were waging your whole game on your NH vote is why I disagree about the vote swapping thing. scum!GL only has three options to win the game yesterDay: 1) Lynch NH, 2) Lynch SC, or 3) NL. Lynching me was not an option to anyone. So you went with the most probable scenario, that SC misvotes NH and either massive sneaks on and hammers, or you persuade me to vote NH over NLing. i believe town!GL would have been more open to the idea of discussing who scum!NH's partner is, and yet you strayed away from debating SC/massive with me. Meanwhile, SC, while wrong about NH, at least entertains the idea of catching scum!NH's partner, by suggesting to vote and then voting massive. Furthermore, the fact that NH is confirmed town and engaged in repeated vote swapping does not bode well for your assertion that it's not something a townie would do.

[ɀefiend]

Oh and I missed the last point you made:

But we essentially lynched massive without you on the wagon, because I would have hammered massive anyway. So if you were technically "off the wagon," wouldn't this sink you too? Your vote on massive was inconsequential.

[ɀefiend]

Actually rereading your last point again, it's complete BS because the same argument can be applied to you: both scum!SC and scum!GL have the plan in mind to push a NH lynch because at least one townie is misreading them. The only difference is that SC might have had a contingency plan to bus massive, while you had no backup plan whatsoever. The contingency plan theory is still shattered by a point that has been repeatedly made; if SC just sticks to NH or otherwise does nothing to spur the massive lynch, he wins anyway.

[ɀefiend]

Explain to me why peculiar = scummy.

Why would a scum!GL argue this with you instead of pandering and doing what you wanted?

My point here is clear - asking both players to cater to you only serves to benefit whoever pushes your buttons correctly.

You begrudge my reaction test on the basis that scum can pollute with WIFOM, then you ask a blatant WIFOM question. Really?

[ɀefiend]

:/

Is there going to be an extension given? even like half the time lost would be helpful.

[ɀefiend]

Let's try something else. Can both of you go look at Thor's associatives and find some evidence on the other? I will do the same.

[ɀefiend]

Waiting for GL to respond to the Thor thing.

[ɀefiend]

I think the answer to this game lies somewhere in Thor's posts because

1) As I believe NH pointed out, if Thor was on the scum team, he would have concocted the "plan."
2) Most of Thor's references are to Fire, massive, SC, and GL, in that order. Once NH and I auto-town read him, he pretty much ignored us. A few posts single out other townies but they're useless now.
3) The narrative with GL and the narrative with SC is being interpreted differently by each of you. Therefore I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

It just sucks that it's up to me to find that middle.

But I like the focus on this topic, so please try to find the missteps/holes in each other's arguments while I look over Thor's posts myself. It should be very telling that both of you chose different posts of Thor's ISO except 410.

[ɀefiend]

I'm here just still undecided :/

[ɀefiend]

Any last words guys?

[ɀefiend]

Except I haven't; I've changed my mind about 3 or 4 times this final Day. :/

[ɀefiend]

I'm gonna vote so you guys can tell me who won.

[ɀefiend]

VOTE: SirCakez

[ɀefiend]

Damn. Sorry dude :/

I feel bad, but I would have felt bad mislynching either of you.

[ɀefiend]

I should have gone with my gut, as usual.

But yeah, the fact that town should have actually lost yesterday makes me feel slightly better. Well played though.

[ɀefiend]

SC I actually looked at your prior games and it seems like you have a bad habit of not getting town-read for some reason. So I'm not alone in that department.

The main reason I didn't think it was GL was because he did a good job disguising that he was informed. His posts vs, NH that were saying "Aristo flip is gonna bury you," etc and even starting the random Aristo wagon D1 seemed like "outsider looking in" posts to me ... Ah well.

[ɀefiend]

I didn't even notice that, either. Damn.

[ɀefiend]

This game seemed to go on for a very long time....

It sucks cause I was going to trigger vote GuiltyLion at the start of Lylo due to Cakez coming back and lynching massive. Then the site crash happened and I lost train of thought on this game, and GL was able to sway me with all his arguments at the end :/

[ɀefiend]

A lot of "WHAT IFs" this game:

1) SC was lynched d1? Massive was lynched d1?
2) Tracker/ascetic/jk mechanics were normal?
3) Literally any of the town PRs were useful?
4) SC saw NH as town in 5way Lylo?
5) NH hydra didn't disagree between SC and GL?
6) The site didn't crash causing me to hammer sooner?
7) SC had ended up clear instead of me?

Don't get me wrong, scum deserved to win this game. NH was basically mislynched in Lylo, and town was pretty much in shambles the whole game. Nobody strongly scumread GL except dwlee at the end. And I went with brain against gut in a game where a lot of logic went out the window.