Mini 1786: Inspirational Mafia (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record I believe that's L-1 on Implosion so nobody has an excuse to be unaware.

[Something_Smart]

Victory belongs to the most persevering.

VC 2.5

implosion (5)- SnarkySnowman, BlueBloodedToffee, Kmd4390, MagnaofIllusion, Creature

(L-1)

Creature (3)- Lowell, drmyshottyizsik, Thestatusquo
SnarkySnowman (2)- implosion, Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1)- kagesong

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

(expired on 2016-05-04 20:00:00)

Mod notes: Seeking replacement for kagesong...still. Tell your friends![/area]

[drmyshottyizsik]

so really what is the case on implo in a nut shell?

[Thestatusquo]

implo wagon is horseshit.

[drmyshottyizsik]

implo wagon is horseshit.

I agree, I see one bad post that could have been pre planned but I dont see it as a scum tell.

[Lowell]

I'm not thrilled with the way creature has somehow talked his way off the block by doing nothing. But yeah I'm ready to hammer if needed.

[Lowell]

These last few posts by creature look desperate as hell. Like a guy who can't contain his glee. Idk maybe I won't hammer.

[implosion]

Implosion continues to call Shotty as the only player being scum but holds his vote as a policy on Snarky which isn’t consistent with Town play.

Alright. You've done this at least twice now and Lowell has done it at least once as well. This is deeply flawed because you're projecting your particular version of how town plays on to me. I consider a snarky vote more important than a shotty vote right now because snarky is almost completely opaque. He continues to do nothing to justify his reads or make himself remotely readable halfway through day two. I see this as a massive problem for a town in which the majority of players have been contributing well; we very simply cannot allow snarky to be a lurker to the degree he is now or it has a strong chance of coming back to bite us (if he's town and we lynch the lurker on d4 or whenever, or if he's scum and we just let him get away with never justifying anything). I view getting readable content from snarky as a higher priority than voting for shotty.

Saying my holding my vote as a policy on snarky "isn't consistent with town play" is wrong for two reasons: one, you're calling it inconsistent with

your version

of town play which is very different from mine, and I as town am going to be playing by the maxims that I view to govern good town play, not those that you do. Two (although I can't quite tell if you're doing this based on your wording), even if your vision of "consistent with town play" were in some sense objectively right you'd be implying that town will always play according to that objective standard (which I think a very brief review of yesterday will prove wrong).

And his reads-list doesn’t really sort of align in my mind – I’m lumped into the group of ‘maybe scum’ (Untrod who he addresses directly) even though clearly implosion states he has no read on me aka I should be Null. Reads as setting the stage to move in my direction if the wind blows right.

Two things.

One, I often think about posts like that as I write them and I looked at my reads list, thought "hey, I haven't looked at UT in a while, maybe I should look at him more", did that, saw some scummy things, and then didn't update the reads list afterwards. You might notice that my commentary on UT comes after my reads list. Sometimes I'll edit earlier parts of my posts when later information pertains more to them and sometimes I won't.

Two, why the hell would I pick

you

as my "backup person I can push" as scum, when as scum, I would have a viable plethora of easy to push options in creature/kmd/bbt/lowell (at least two of whom would have to be town if I'm scum) all of whom I've said I'm townreading and

all four

of which are scumreading me in one way or another.

That tier in my reads list is, like you said, essentially the group of "maybe scum." Maybe it's almost like I think you might be scum? And literally every tier above that one is some form of townread, so that tier is the appropriate one for you? And also that people

were ordered

within each tier, and you were above snarky and tripod? I'm getting a lot of townreads as the day progresses and I'm still unable to read you particularly well. Frankly this post attacking me feels extremely opportunistic relative to some of the other votes on my wagon. The second of your points that I've responded to in this post almost sounds paranoid.

[implosion]

If I am lynched for the LOVE OF GOD can we at least wait until Snarky has given reasoning at all and BBT has given reasoning other than sheeping a person who now townreads me.

[implosion]

(or who at least thinks the wagon is bad)

[drmyshottyizsik]

implosion is just so town. Scum has to be on this wagon.

[Thestatusquo]

can we lynch snarky or creature instead?

Please.

Mega please?

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Implosion

Based mostly on wanting discussion with Shea at this stage.

can we lynch snarky or creature instead?

Please.

Mega please?

Creature I can see. However I’d like a case on Snarky from you that isn’t “he’s a terrible player”. So please indulge me.

Alright. You've done this at least twice now and Lowell has done it at least once as well. This is deeply flawed because you're projecting your particular version of how town plays on to me. I consider a snarky vote more important than a shotty vote right now because snarky is almost completely opaque. He continues to do nothing to justify his reads or make himself remotely readable halfway through day two. I see this as a massive problem for a town in which the majority of players have been contributing well; we very simply cannot allow snarky to be a lurker to the degree he is now or it has a strong chance of coming back to bite us (if he's town and we lynch the lurker on d4 or whenever, or if he's scum and we just let him get away with never justifying anything). I view getting readable content from snarky as a higher priority than voting for shotty.

And this is why I find your play vis-a-vie this to be scummy. Had you said “Snarky I find suspect even if Shotty is more directly scummy so I am voting a scum read with ancillary benefits” I might accept that. But you aren’t. Your vote is 100% policy driven with the policy with the stated goal of making Snarky post in a different manner.

Do you have any experience with Snarky? I will say that I’ve only been back on site maybe a month but reading him in multiple games I know for a fact your policy vote isn’t going to make him a different player. Much like if you were going to vote Firebringer for being a fluffing floater who doesn’t do anything expecting him to change – it isn’t going to happen.

So I see a player making a vote for reasons that are pointless. That’s not Town behavior. And yup – it is my assessment of Town behavior. You hold other players to your own personal standards of what you consider Town behavior. Don’t pretend anyone doesn’t.

One, I often think about posts like that as I write them and I looked at my reads list, thought "hey, I haven't looked at UT in a while, maybe I should look at him more", did that, saw some scummy things, and then didn't update the reads list afterwards. You might notice that my commentary on UT comes after my reads list. Sometimes I'll edit earlier parts of my posts when later information pertains more to them and sometimes I won't.

Two, why the hell would I pick you as my "backup person I can push" as scum, when as scum, I would have a viable plethora of easy to push options in creature/kmd/bbt/lowell (at least two of whom would have to be town if I'm scum) all of whom I've said I'm townreading and all four of which are scumreading me in one way or another.

That tier in my reads list is, like you said, essentially the group of "maybe scum." Maybe it's almost like I think you might be scum? And literally every tier above that one is some form of townread, so that tier is the appropriate one for you? And also that people were ordered within each tier, and you were above snarky and tripod? I'm getting a lot of townreads as the day progresses and I'm still unable to read you particularly well. Frankly this post attacking me feels extremely opportunistic relative to some of the other votes on my wagon. The second of your points that I've responded to in this post almost sounds paranoid.

1. Um, ok. No reason for me to assume that your posted a reads list and that prompted you to go back and look at UT and not the other way around … that you were explaining your read on UT in the further discussion. Do you think it isn’t a reasonable assumption for readers to make?

2 / 3. I’m not sure your point here – I’m specifically pointing out that you basically are avoiding actually making a read on me under the guise of “I can’t do it”. Unlike those mentioned players who you have already committed to a Town read on (and for the record – many for reasons that are at best fluff). You are specifically abdicating a read on my slot under the “It’s Hard” doctrine which I see as a fence-sitting position that is easy to evacuate from when the need arises. Much more difficult to 180 on a Town read without drawing suspicions especially given the light stances those reads are built upon.

Also the fact you call both BBT and KMD easy pushes I find highly suspect. Neither are such. In fact your “policy” vote basically has landed on probably the easiest push in the game in Snarky.

I have some strong concerns about yourself, Creature and Shotty. I don’t think all three of you are scum together but I can see possible connections between you and Creature that made consolidating the wagon on you seem worthwhile to see reactions.

[Untrod Tripod]

Snarky is still my preferred lynch today

can someone give me a tl;dr for the case on implo? I must have missed it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Snarky is still my preferred lynch today

can someone give me a tl;dr for the case on implo? I must have missed it.

Nah, how about you give a TL/DR of your case on Snarky because I seem to have missed it too.

[Untrod Tripod]

tl;dr I thought the way he questioned kagelord at the beginning of the day seemed like textbook scum rolefishing

[Kmd4390]

So I know I've been townreading Creature, but his latest interaction with Magna came off as trying to appease him rather than answer his concerns, especially the Implosion vote.

Creature, Magna wanted more info on your drmy scum read. Even if you're now fine with lynching Implosion instead, can you enlighten us on drmy?

Drmy, who specificaly do you think is scum on the Implosion wagon?

[drmyshottyizsik]

So I know I've been townreading Creature, but his latest interaction with Magna came off as trying to appease him rather than answer his concerns, especially the Implosion vote.

Creature, Magna wanted more info on your drmy scum read. Even if you're now fine with lynching Implosion instead, can you enlighten us on drmy?

Drmy, who specificaly do you think is scum on the Implosion wagon?

I'm in the middle of a VC analysis and iso read, but I'll get it to you tonight.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll get to this tomorrow night.

[Something_Smart]

Prodding SnarkySnowman.

[implosion]

And this is why I find your play vis-a-vie this to be scummy. Had you said “Snarky I find suspect even if Shotty is more directly scummy so I am voting a scum read with ancillary benefits” I might accept that. But you aren’t. Your vote is 100% policy driven with the policy with the stated goal of making Snarky post in a different manner.

This is YET AGAIN committing the same fallacy. You are projecting your way of playing the game on to other me. Saying that my vote is motivated solely for policy isn't an argument for it being scummy;

in practice there are players who will vote based solely on policy.

And I'm not entirely opposed to it.

And *YET AGAIN* in addition to you projecting the way you play the game on to me

the premise behind what you're saying isn't even right in the first place.

Let's look at the pieces:

Right now I think my reads list looks something like:
<me, kage-replacemnt, shea | creature, kmd | bbt, lowell | magna, snarky, untrod | shotty>.

people were ordered within each tier, and you were above snarky and tripod

15. This game is 3 mafia-aligned players versus 10 town-aligned players.

Let's do the math, shall we...
third read from the bottom... three mafia-aligned players... oh damn I guess implosion had a scumread on snarky.
That's not to say that I thought he had done scummy things per se. Just that I'm townreading enough of the player list that PoE is enough for me to be happy with a vote. Like I believe I've said I tend to read games primarily through finding townreads. I've found plenty of townreads that I'm happy with, and that only leaves a few players.

Do you have any experience with Snarky? I will say that I’ve only been back on site maybe a month but reading him in multiple games I know for a fact your policy vote isn’t going to make him a different player. Much like if you were going to vote Firebringer for being a fluffing floater who doesn’t do anything expecting him to change – it isn’t going to happen.

Never played with him.

If he's never going to post more than this, then with the number of townreads I have I'm frankly happy to lynch him on primarily policy. That said at this point I'm kind of hoping for a flake.

So I see a player making a vote for reasons that are pointless. That’s not Town behavior. And yup – it is my assessment of Town behavior. You hold other players to your own personal standards of what you consider Town behavior. Don’t pretend anyone doesn’t.

Never played with him. I'll see for myself whether or not he changes.

And I do not hold other players to my own personal standards of town behavior per se; I hold people to the standard of being town. People on this site have wildly, wildly different playstyles. If I expected every player to act how I act as town then I would think 90% of people in games were scum.

1. Um, ok. No reason for me to assume that your posted a reads list and that prompted you to go back and look at UT and not the other way around … that you were explaining your read on UT in the further discussion. Do you think it isn’t a reasonable assumption for readers to make?

Sure. Which is why I clarified it for you. You're welcome.

2 / 3. I’m not sure your point here – I’m specifically pointing out that you basically are avoiding actually making a read on me under the guise of “I can’t do it”. Unlike those mentioned players who you have already committed to a Town read on (and for the record – many for reasons that are at best fluff). You are specifically abdicating a read on my slot under the “It’s Hard” doctrine which I see as a fence-sitting position that is easy to evacuate from when the need arises. Much more difficult to 180 on a Town read without drawing suspicions especially given the light stances those reads are built upon.

My apologies for not being able to get a strong read on everyone. I prefer to take the humble route and not pretend that I have reads that I don't. I'm allowed to find you hard to read. That said, I'm beginning to find you slightly scummy for the point that I mentioned in my last post about paranoia. You're focusing so much on my read of you when I've given townreads on

more than half of the player list

. Your argument here is that I'm scum because I'm essentially giving myself more breathing room in my read on you. What I'm saying is that if this were my tact as scum, there's no reason why I would have restricted myself so much in my reads by townreading so many people.

I'm also curious which of my townreads you think are based on "at best fluff." I can give more detail on any of my reasons for townreading any of my townreads if desired.

Also the fact you call both BBT and KMD easy pushes I find highly suspect. Neither are such. In fact your “policy” vote basically has landed on probably the easiest push in the game in Snarky.

This is a red herring. I was comparing them to you, not to Snarky. Further, this discussion was about how the game would play out in the future (insofar as you argued that I was giving myself room to flip on you), not how it's playing out now.

[Something_Smart]

I am Innocent replaces kagesong!

[SnarkySnowman]

Still here, please implosion lynch

[I Am Innocent]

I am Innocent replaces kagesong!

Hello all. See we have 5+ days til the deadline, I'll need a day or two to catch up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Will get to this when I can.