Mini 1762: Game Over

[implosion]

I keep opening this game and wanting to be motivated but it just isn't coming. I definitely think I might be wrong on Rask at this point because some of his recent posting does give pretty strong townvibes but idk. I still just really don't think syn or moi makes sense as scum.

Like rask is sounding somewhat town but I don't really agree with his points. Like post 2020 feels like too simplistic of a view of how scum act. But it feels like reasoning that's coming from town.

Right now I just really think gif is scum coasting on a fake inno and I just can't get a confident read. The other three all seem pretty strongly town to me. And I can't really get past any of those reasons. Like, rask gave some townvibes early on that disappeared early yesterday and his posting started seeming fairly scum-motivated to me, but now it doesn't feel scum-motivated anymore.

I sort of feel like I should give this game an iso read of each of those three slots at least but like the constant delays and missing player slots and everything have just sapped my motivation for this game. I have time for it but not motivation. It's really annoying that the only slot I really feel good about as scum is gif and I still agree we shouldn't lynch gif today.

[Raskolnikov]

Play the game or replace out. I'm not as convinced on you as I am on syn but if you're town you should realize you're being useless by refusing to ISO/re-read and coming to no conclusions in your analysis; either step up or get out but I don't care about your personal struggle to find motivation. "I think gif is scum but the other three feel strong town and hey we shouldn't lynch gif" doesn't contribute to this game and I think you're more likely scum abusing apathy because it's safer than faking nuanced town stances and thought processes. If I had no motivation in this situation I'd at least attempt to help even if it's deciding who I marginally feel worse/better about and asking questions or trying to engage people if I can't be bothered ISOing them. I would be too embarrassed of myself to post into Lylo what you did and I'd also have shown some remorse being in the game without really playing it for as long as you have.

If you're town you have to realize that playing like you are isn't going to let anyone be able to read you as town because we can't follow along with your thoughts and views to see if they're genuine if you don't actually have any substantial thoughts and views to analyse. It's incredibly easy for scum to play or fake apathy, but it isn't even necessary because scum can be genuinely be lacking in motivation (in this case motivation to fake towny looking posts and analysis) and scum are obviously going to be apathetic about doing(faking) town things they don't care about like "scumhunting" and "figuring the game out" which is why they have to pretend to care about them most of the time.

If you don't agree with my points on syn then go into detail and we can have a discussion about it, just saying you don't agree with something (but it feels like it's coming from town) doesn't do anything to push the game forward; if you pointed out someone's post and said it felt scummy that would at least be a stance and something of substance but pointing out things you think feel town when you have 3 strong townreads doesn't mean anything.
How do you think scum would act as opposed to what I said in 2020?
Why do you think syn or moi don't make sense as scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA for weekend family sense of duty from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning.

Ok so today is a simple proposition for me. Regardless of Implosion / GIF being possibly falsely gunsmith cleared the other isn’t. So I’m not going to bother to look in either of that direction today. Not worth the effort today as it distracts from getting today’s lynch correct.

My vote today comes down to either Synd or Rask. After seeing the Kirroha as Town flip I really need to re-assess both your ISOs in context of Golden’s slot as well. I’ll be asking some questions of both of you as I go through your ISOs. It may be today or it may be Monday.

[Raskolnikov]

See, if MoI's scum he's at least putting effort in to pretending to care.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I started my Synd read but got bogged down with a project ...

I'll finish it Monday.

Also I need to re-look at IAI's Day 2 ISO.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod I think Gif is in prod range?

[Metrion]

GuyInFreezer has been prodded for inactivity.

[implosion]

Rask it's not like me replacing out is going to be good for this game. It'll be really bad. I've

been

playing this game and have experienced the earlier days and have reads based on those. Look at all of the playing the game that dwlee was willing to do yesterday. He basically arbitrarily listed reads until a lynch happened. IMO the biggest reason this has been a struggle game was the constant stream of slots being under replacement from day one until yesterday.

I don't really care about being read as town right now. I care about figuring out which of the three of you is scum (or which two) so that we can not-lose the game today. If we manage not to screw up today then I'll start caring about how I'm read.

I would have remorse for having been in the game and not playing it but i

have

been playing it. I analyzed things as the game went on. I re-analyzed them yesterday. At some point it feels like looking at the same material too many times does more harm than good. Especially given that that's essentially why I don't have any strong reads right now. I've basically second-guessed everything that I've thought throughout this game. I was really, really confident rubixx's slot and synd were town based on their play and interactions with gr, and your recent actions probably aren't on par with the degree to which I saw their actions/relations as townish but because of recency they're more at the front of my mind.

I've explained both of those townreads in pretty high depth throughout this game I think. Rubixxx made posts that I don't think would have been faked. Gr interacted with synd in a way that I don't think would have happened if they were both scum. With regards to 2020 like I said it's just overly simplistic. It's overlys implistic because assumes synd-town would be so confident in her read on you so as to stake the game. After you offered the 1 for 1 synd described you as "probably scum?" and I would hardly expect town with that stance to want to take an offer of a 1-for-1. It's overly simplistic because it assumes scum will just go for that kind of thing. Scum aren't going to "accept" or "go for" a 1-for-1 offer because that doesn't mean that it happens. That can look scummy to do. Like, most of the time that that kind of thing happens from town it's so that analysis like you gave in 2020 can be given and at that point you'd be calling anyone who jumped on scum and scum would know that. If you and synd are both town then it really isn't surprising at all that no one jumped on to that idea because it's not like as soon as people agree the 1-for-1 trade becomes sacredly ensrhined in gold with no takesies-backsies. It's not like scum can just say "okay guys we did it the two townies are 1 for 1ing, we win, lets vote them." Because that's not how the dynamic nature of a mafia game works.

[Raskolnikov]

Poked you and you gave me this beautiful scumpost

There is a difference in you and dwlee, and a huge difference between syn/you vs everyone else in the game. It's presence. Dwlee came in and clearly tried to figure the game out with what little time he had; though technical analysis was limited I could see he was trying and follow a progression in his thinking. MoI's been very clear with his stances and we had an extensive engage so I know there's depth there, and I've seen played with maybe a handful of people who could fake that level of town thought process. Even GiF though he's been a lurksac I can say has contributed to this game; getting us to massclaim and having had actual stances shown when he townread me and stuck up for me yesterday. You're content to sit on old gut-reads and actually defending yourself having no scumreads. I'll tell you what town would do having 2 strong/high-depth townreads in your position in syn and rubixx; PoE and then push onto me and GiF. I know as a fact you wouldn't have made this post if I didn't prompt you do so and everything you say about trying to figure the game out means squat when you never "show your work"; do you think people would just take your word for it? And don't tell me about the "struggle" this game was; it wasn't replacements that ruined this game, it was everyone being lurking sacks who can't even meet lynch deadline day 1. That's why we needed replacements and why I'd welcome any more.

I've seen town struggling before and this isn't it. I've been town in a position where I wasn't sure about any read and it's not like this; it's a hellish situation but you sound content and if I had to summarise your play with a word it would be complacent. Idk how you manage you defend it so strongly; I don't know how town in your position could end up with that warped perspective of their own place in a game.

[Raskolnikov]

This is also hell though.
Stuck talking with scum while town is V/LA + afk and even though I'm 100% on my reads I can only hope and essentially pray neither of them screws up :/

[Syndesis]

I was going to do this game last night but I got derailed and forgot. Commitment #1 is finished finally though.

Case on Ras Soon^TM?

[implosion]

honestly my perspective on this game is pretty warped. You're right about that. I don't know how you still care about this game so much, regardless of your alignment. Saying GiF has had more presence than me is just patently absurd and pretends that I haven't done anything this game. Which I have.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't know how you still care about this game so much, regardless of your alignment.

I really want to win after personally screwing up my last two lylos; this game was really shitty early but the mass claim, GR lynch and gs innos made it interesting and very winnable. In general I have to play through information and analysis instead of feeling or gut; through trying to follow someone's progression through the game (does their stance make sense going from x->y->z) and interactions, especially ruling out partner associations; it's really shitty day 1 and 2 but really fun lategame. I kind of wish I could play more intuitively and just read people with gut feel but I don't have the social skills for that and I've failed horrendously when I've tried that approach. This is offtopic af and you're probably scum anyways so idk why I'm even answering, I guess there's nothing else to talk about atm though.

Saying GiF has had more presence than me is just patently absurd and pretends that I haven't done anything this game. Which I have.

Okay that was probably an exaggeration; I think it's about the same if you're only talking about GiF (not ink). When I say presence I mean impact on the game; GiF in his short time got us to massclaim, developed reads and defended his townread on me preventing that wagon, whereas it feels like you've been completely static with no scumreads since about day 3 and I'll admit I'm biased towards the former. Comparing slots as a whole is a different story because of ink's play, and if I were to ignore that it'd be a lot harder to judge but as is I like the overall slot way more. As it is it's pretty irrelevant since we have to lynch outside the innos today and I only want syn, and at this point I'm not sure if it'll go to day six anyways.

Idk, call me crazy but I feel like I have some obligation to win this even if nobody else cares; dragging what's left of the game to the finish line if I have to. Naturally if I'm wrong it'll suck but regardless of the outcome I wouldn't feel comfortable with myself if I wasn't putting all my effort into it. There's nothing you can learn from a game if you didn't even try and I personally would sooner replace out of a game than give up but stay anyways, but again I think you're way more likely just scum feeling good/complacent about your chances to win lylo either today or tomorrow with this "I'm town with no motivation" shtick. I'll give it to you, it's decent play considering the site meta because I usually see scum favour excuses and defend their apathy rather than straight up admitting they have a screwed pov + they don't care and probably won't in future; you went about half-and-half here with 2032 being the former and elsewhere the latter.

[Raskolnikov]

@mod

replace GiF?

[Raskolnikov]

Can it please be monday already?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA –

Pulling out my notes from where the ended on reading Synd and Robster’s slot and will post my feeling shortly.

[Metrion]

GuyInFreezer has been booted for failing to respond to his prod.

[Raskolnikov]

Is everyone here?

[Raskolnikov]

*anyone

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I've finished my review of Synd and Robster's slot in tandem ISO. I chose Synd first as I have the most reassessment to do on his slot given the Kirroha flip.

In review the interactions between Synd and the Robster slot I can certainly see as scum. Day 1 and 2 there was minimal ineractions that were more than on the surfact between them. As examples -

Synd asked ShortCut a question at 200. ShortCut was absent for an extended amount of time and when ShortCut did return Synd again asked reminded SCB of the question. Aside from that nada either way. And Synd only moves to pressure that slot after ShortCut's replace at with 553 which assesses “your predecessor was too terrible”. Yet Synd had minimal interactions with the slot before that and really never mentioned SCB as scummy in any signficant way. Reads as possible bussing.

I also dislike his hop onto the Tojam wagon off of Robster's slot. Tojam had only 5 posts before Synd made his change moved to the Robster slot wagon. So Synd goes from voting the Robster slot to voting someone who joined them on said wagon. I can see this as a possible bussing partner who saw the chance to move to a non-partner lynch on another low content target.

After Golden replaces in the Synd - Golden interactions are very, very soft the rest of Day 1 and Day 2. Robster on multiple occasions calls out Synd for scummy actions (example in 800 but doesn't make any effort to pressure or vote Synd. This happens multiple times including posts in the 1000s and 1122. In summary those days Synd was always in the bottom of Golden's rankings as to who was scum but there was never any action to follow up on those claims.

Synd's read on Golden doesn't seem very organic to me. He mentions Golden is a Null read at 1277. Then about 60 posts later at 1332 Golden is now a probably Town read yet there is nothing between there where Synd interacts with Golden and Golden continues to softly call Synd scum. I can see this as scum unwilling to commit to a counter-bus when the Beeboy slot was around to mislynch.

Probably the most damning part of the Day 2 exchange is 1285 by Robster. Here Robster is trying to link Synd to GiF for the sin of "calling each other scum without interacting with each other" but that is in a nutshelll the treatment Robster's slot has laid on Synd - softly calling him scum while not interacting with him or trying to vote Synd.

Day 3 could be cross-bussing. The snipe back and forth at each other but Golden is happy to move to a Rask compromise lynch despite having a supposed strong scum read on Synd and Synd now moving Robster to a scum read.

Overall I could see them as partners who got desperate due to Radiant's push on them Day 3 who decided to cross-bus in hopes that one would escape unscathed after the fact.

Certainly not sold 100% but within the realm of possibility.

Next up - review of Rask and the Golden slot.

[Raskolnikov]

It's worth mentioning the thing that makes me feel so sure on syn is how syn is in comparison to everyone else instead of in isolation; syn doesn't have any shining moment where I can feel confident thinking "That's a genuine town perspective". You, GiF and even rarely implosion (though I think he's prob partner) have various posts and/or actions throughout the game which make me want to townread you, whereas syn's defining action/contribution this game was her gr case and I already went over why I thought it was really dodgy.

[Syndesis]

this game is making me shrivel up and die.

Spoiler: stream of consciousness read at own risk

case still coming soon (tm) in the meantime have

one

two

four reasons ras is scum:

Let's dispel once and for all this fiction that Kirroha doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what she's doing. Kirroha is undertaking a systematic effort to change this game, to make 1762 more like the rest of the world. We don't want to be like the rest of the world, we want to be 1762. And when I'm elected president, this will become once again, the single greatest nation in the history of the world, not the disaster Kirroha has imposed upon us.

- this post do not like it's shady and kind of weird

- d1/2 coasty and noncommittal nnnnngh. for much of d1/2 ras had zero presence. (this may not be factually correct but I remember nothing there at all)

- weird counterwagoning of GR (will show later)

- really bad (ab)use of meta toDay


I think I'm going to stop before I embarass myself with my mad typing and communication skillz even more yeahhhhh

[Raskolnikov]

case still coming soon (tm) in the meantime have

one

two

four reasons ras is scum:

Let's dispel once and for all this fiction that Kirroha doesn't know what she's doing. She knows exactly what she's doing. Kirroha is undertaking a systematic effort to change this game, to make 1762 more like the rest of the world. We don't want to be like the rest of the world, we want to be 1762. And when I'm elected president, this will become once again, the single greatest nation in the history of the world, not the disaster Kirroha has imposed upon us.

- this post do not like it's shady and kind of weird

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I've completed my Rask / Robster slot re-read ...

The Day 1 interaction between the slots is basically non-existent. ShortCut has very limited interactions with Rask. 505 is the closest they get to anything game related and that is very, very soft interactions. In fact I find it bordering on coaching from Rask to ShortCut "Hey just make this Townie style post and you can get some of the heat off you". Although in a Daytalk game that really doesn't probably hold much weight. Still ... it just is odd.

I think given Rask's penchant for pointing out Rule of Three posting that 546 actually fits that pattern - we have ShortCut mixed in with a group of 3 Town players.

The vote on Robster's slot at 785 comes out of left field. No suspicion posted their way just a hop onto a wagon with the reasoning "my wagon on BBT (Town) isn't viable".

Another point against Rask is that at 451 she made a show of stating that pushing for claims was a bad idea Day 1 or Day 2. Yet she is willing to bounce around to multiple wagons at the end of day (IAI, BBT, Golden) which basically generated at least 2 more claims than Kirrohas' VT claim and Kill's Jailkeep claim. Reads as posturing to me as opposed to actual Town thinking.

The Day 2 interactions with Robster really aren't more indicative of Town trying to read scum. Rask really never does much to establish a scum-read on Golden via interactions. And Golden plays with the concept of suspecting Rask but keeps pushing it off to "another Day".

Very much don't like 1511 1512. If Synd is Town then this very much reads of indecisive bussing on Rask's part.

By the time Day 3 rolls around the interactions between the slots don't really deepen much. They take turns voting each other and then backing off to another player without any questioning or scum-hunting backing up the movement. And having re-read Rask's play around my entry I really, really dislike it. Re-readiing the PoE again leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I can certainly see scum willing to bus (Robster) but happy to lump three Town in the "must lynch" pool and being willing to vote anyone there at a drop of a hat.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok next stop on the train is reading IAI's ISO again.

It would be great if Implosion would actually commit to making a read for today and if we could get a GiF replacement to comment ASAP.