Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Imperium]

Nos is someone I want to look back at. I asked Nacho the other day what his current thoughts about her were and he said fine, but we'll see when I get through the game.

Yeah, I mean pm. I call pms emails. Sorry.

[Nosferatu]

PoE makes??

Town:
Ranger
Imperium
Ollie
Killthestory

Everyone else:
Virtue
MagnaofIllusion
Masquerade
Massive
OceanWind

so two of my [everyone else] reads need to get bumped to town.

[OceanWind]

The whole fucking idea that it's an ok thing announce reads but not go in depth AT ALL is absolutely trash. I'm not necessarily one to talk seeing as I often make votes and not explain those immediately, but when I suggest a possible lynch on someone, I make damn sure to explain why the hell I'm proposing to do so.

This is why I don't know how to sort SS, because I can't know if he fabricated the read on severa or not because of this shitty new read list meta.

Considering this, explanations to go with those reads would be awesome.

[OceanWind]

Here, she's reconsidering a Magna read when the meta does not match.

Where did Ranger reconsider her read on Magna? The confidence in her Magna read is actually one of the reasons I suspect her because I don't see it.

[Titus]

That Micro game where you flaked as scum really supports that position too ...

Oh, right, now that you bring it up...does this Killthestory feel like the same Killthestory-as-Kanbei from that game?

It doesn't to me.

Here we go. It was KTS not Magna, Ranger was reconsidering. I think I misspoke there. It was Magna making the point though.

[Nosferatu]

PoE makes??

Ranger - meta (Blitz 2, Mini 1774)
Imperium - tone
Ollie - made some posts I agreed with, particularly 438 comes to mind
Killthestory - meta (Mini 1774, Mini 1740)

[Nosferatu]

simple sentence reads.

[OceanWind]

I've already talked about Magna.

This just hasn't felt like his scum game.

Ranger was right about magna and him having that aha feeling. That fits in more like his town game. You can save your why and where question follow up.

See, this is the kind of bare assertions that get me nowhere. "Why" and "where" were exactly the questions I was going to ask but you pre-empted that by basically saying that you can't/won't point it out. I suppose that's par for the course with the group of players in this game.

I buy the RadiantCowbells explanation though.

I imagine he'll be back and posting when he's caught up with his other games or if I need him to do something in particular, but until that happens, you've got me. (Which to anyone even moderately familiar with either one of us should clear up any doubts about our alignment. I can't imagine a world where I ask to take the lead in a scum game when there's a town game I could have taken the lead in. Although that should also already be clear from the way I pushed CoM, so.)

Can you get him to post more? He's one of the few people that was providing straightforward answers to questions and when I played with him in a game offsite, I found him to be pretty clearly town. If he's all caught up, that shouldn't be too burdensome a request.

You've both featured in games that I've followed but I wouldn't say I'm moderately familiar with either of you so I'm not quite sure why you are insisting that your push on ChurchOfMercy clears you. I've pushed mislynches as mafia before on D1 and I assume almost everyone who's decent at the game has.

[OceanWind]

PoE makes??

Ranger - meta (Blitz 2, Mini 1774)
Imperium - tone
Ollie - made some posts I agreed with, particularly 438 comes to mind
Killthestory - meta (Mini 1774, Mini 1740)

Simple sentences on Ranger and Killthestory meta would be nice. Just the highlights. What was the difference in their play as town and as mafia and how have their posts here fit more with their townplay?

What does "tone" even mean in this context?

More examples of Ollie posts you agree with please. That one post I find to be rather null. If Ollie knew Severa was town, that would have been an easy read to make.

[kelbris]

VC 3.03

Virtue (1): Nosferatu
Ranger (3) [L-3]: OceanWind, MagnaofIllusion, Ollie
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (0): none
Masquerade (0): none
Nosferatu (1): Virtue
Massive (1): Masquerade
OceanWind (0): none
Ollie (0): none
not voting: Ranger, Imperium, killthestory, Massive,
With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
day 3 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-05-19 01:10:00)

[Nosferatu]

PoE makes??

Ranger - meta (Blitz 2, Mini 1774)
Imperium - tone
Ollie - made some posts I agreed with, particularly 438 comes to mind
Killthestory - meta (Mini 1774, Mini 1740)

Simple sentences on Ranger and Killthestory meta would be nice. Just the highlights. What was the difference in their play as town and as mafia and how have their posts here fit more with their townplay?

What does "tone" even mean in this context?

More examples of Ollie posts you agree with please. That one post I find to be rather null. If Ollie knew Severa was town, that would have been an easy read to make.

Well it's less agree with and more genuine?
this one I really felt he was being honest about.

As for kill and ranger, the tone of their posts is very much like their posts in the games I listed.

As for Imperium, he's just got that townie feel I guess. As I mentioned before, I'm tonal with my town reads, analytical with my scum reads.

[OceanWind]

What do Killthestory's and Ranger's "tones" look like when they are town, and when they are mafia? What posts in this game corresponded to their town "tone?"

Imperium's

just got that townie feel you guess?

What does that even mean?

Some more of Ollie's genuine posts/ones that you agreed with would be nice.

[Ranger]

I'd have hammered Ranger btw

You would have been right.

I'm never playing that good as scum again. I don't think it's indicative of my normal scum play for what it's worth; I was entirely convinced that game was a 0% chance of winning, so instead of aiming for a win, I was aiming for personal goals: zero mislynches, game doesn't count on my wiki, one mislynch, I accept the loss and record it as such, two mislynches, I record the game as a win on my wiki. I never thought I'd get the third!

Incidentally, I've been procrastinating on this game partly because I've wanted that game to be officially, 100%, declared over. (Still feel guilty. I should

not

have won that game given the conftown, obvtown, strong town, and weak/dead buddies.)

[Imperium]

Oh now that Cyberpunk has ended, Titus one of the reasons I didn't like CoM early on was because he felt like he was doing the same thing he did to me in that game with throwing soft suspicion my way. Like in Cyberpunk when DGB called me town, he responded with something like I was a good player so she shouldn't town read me that soon. (It was where I first started suspecting your slot btw because it didn't feel right.) ABR said he hadn't read our posts yet and mentioned us being good players then had us as a gut scum read but didn't actually push us or interact with us about it. Since he had just drawn scum in Cyberpunk and recently been lynched, I thought his demeanor here reflected his resignation to drawing yet another scum role so soon.

OW - Nacho will get here when he gets here. You're just going to have to deal with that. As far as people answering your questions, not to be rude or anything but you kind of oversaturate the game with questions. Now normally I think asking questions is a good thing but you want everyone to be as robotic as you are and we aren't. It's actually somewhat becoming partly a distraction and I think is hindering the process of the game. I told you more than once I wasn't going to give reads on people before I reread and reevaluated the game yet you asked me for my magna town read more than once. This conversation you're having with nosferatu is going nowhere yet you're badgering her to answer your way. In the event she's town, you're just going to make her dig her heels in about her reads and if she has a wrong read will probably keep her from reassessing. Sometimes watching how things play out is a good thing. If you're town, I get that you want to figure out the game and maybe you're just lacking direction or focus, I don't know. But the way that you're approaching the game is confusing to me. Like you literally defended us yesterday from an accusation that you are today accusing us for. I don't know why you can't find any town reads this game. I don't know why you're coming up with the scenarios you are. You keep making assumptions about us as players and if you don't know us I don't know why you think we would do things the way you're saying we would or should do them. But in many instances I don't feel like you're actually reading what people say.

When I said that about my CoM push day one, I said the *way* I pushed it. Key word there. But you don't read that part, you just go oh everyone has to push mislynches day one as town, ignoring what was actually said because it was more important to you to refute what I said than actually process it. Xis gave a meta read on me day one that was spot on. Of course I have to push mislynches as scum. I didn't say one didn't. I hate scum. My scum game sucks precisely for one reason. I have a hard time pushing mislynches on people when I know they're mislynches. I'm not completely incompetent and I've come a long way over the years, but I still have a hard time pushing mislynches, especially on people I play with often or like in particular. ABR respects my town game and has told me as much recently; therefore a scum me wouldn't be pushing their lynch as hard and relentlessly as I did. Scum me doesn't get mad that a mislynch is slipping by for another mislynch I could just easily get the next day. Maybe one day, but not today. But I've talked about this to Ranger I'm pretty sure.

pedit: I didn't follow that game Ranger, so I don't know how you played. I only would have hammered you based on things said by players dead in that game who were obviously referencing that game.

[Ranger]

Nacho thinks it's a ranger kill.

I already crossed that off my "to do" list, so no.

RC was obviously a VT. He was also going to take a lot of heat from the SnarkySnowman mislynch. That's not my type of kill. If I were scum, I'd probably have killed you, or someone else (I have a fairly good guess for who one of our PRs are, you might be able to guess who as well, but for obvious reasons, I'm not stating their identity; they're in my will-not-lynch list).

Ranger calling the game cancer and regretting replacing into it was what shook my suspicion of her.

I fail to see how. As scum, my misery would be, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game would therefore be real. As town, obviously, my misery was, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game was therefore real. What in there could be considered town?

Here, she's reconsidering a Magna read when the meta does not match.

I've done this elsewhere.
Not this game.

My MagnaofIllusion meta is incredibly consistent, and all of my looking-at reads are on players I'm looking at without meta.

had literally no idea it was you

It was pretty obvious to me.

[Ranger]

Here we go. It was KTS not Magna, Ranger was reconsidering.

Uh, no, that was me reaffirming my townread on Killthestory.

I have an engagement for a few hours today (it's Mother's Day!), but I'll return later to start the reread.

[OceanWind]

OW - Nacho will get here when he gets here. You're just going to have to deal with that. As far as people answering your questions, not to be rude or anything but you kind of oversaturate the game with questions. Now normally I think asking questions is a good thing but you want everyone to be as robotic as you are and we aren't. It's actually somewhat becoming partly a distraction and I think is hindering the process of the game. I told you more than once I wasn't going to give reads on people before I reread and reevaluated the game yet you asked me for my magna town read more than once. This conversation you're having with nosferatu is going nowhere yet you're badgering her to answer your way. In the event she's town, you're just going to make her dig her heels in about her reads and if she has a wrong read will probably keep her from reassessing. Sometimes watching how things play out is a good thing. If you're town, I get that you want to figure out the game and maybe you're just lacking direction or focus, I don't know. But the way that you're approaching the game is confusing to me. Like you literally defended us yesterday from an accusation that you are today accusing us for. I don't know why you can't find any town reads this game. I don't know why you're coming up with the scenarios you are. You keep making assumptions about us as players and if you don't know us I don't know why you think we would do things the way you're saying we would or should do them. But in many instances I don't feel like you're actually reading what people say.

When I said that about my CoM push day one, I said the *way* I pushed it. Key word there. But you don't read that part, you just go oh everyone has to push mislynches day one as town, ignoring what was actually said because it was more important to you to refute what I said than actually process it. Xis gave a meta read on me day one that was spot on. Of course I have to push mislynches as scum. I didn't say one didn't. I hate scum. My scum game sucks precisely for one reason. I have a hard time pushing mislynches on people when I know they're mislynches. I'm not completely incompetent and I've come a long way over the years, but I still have a hard time pushing mislynches, especially on people I play with often or like in particular. ABR respects my town game and has told me as much recently; therefore a scum me wouldn't be pushing their lynch as hard and relentlessly as I did. Scum me doesn't get mad that a mislynch is slipping by for another mislynch I could just easily get the next day. Maybe one day, but not today. But I've talked about this to Ranger I'm pretty sure.

Several points here:

1. I think you are projecting with regard to oversaturating the game with questions. I thought your questions to me fell under that category especially the "why should we answer before the thread is locked" type questions. When I brought up those two points against you (your MagnaOfIllusion read, your SnarkySnowman push), instead of responding with something to the tune of "I'm townreading MagnaOfIllusion because..." and "I voted Snarky because..." you instead asked me twenty other questions. I answered them in good faith to hopefully move the game forward and get a better understanding of where you are coming from, but still felt like I had to squeeze your RadiantCowbells read out of you until you finally gave something decent.

2. Nachomamma8 has been more diplomatic and direct. The majority of your posts when I suspect you have been aggressive complaints and abrasive responses. I felt that having a level-headed player who responds calmly to suspicion and answers questions I ask would help me scumhunt better. That's why I wanted him here.

3. I didn't ask you for your current read on MagnaOfIllusion. I asked you why you were townreading him before. You don't need to re-read the game to explain why you had a past read.

4. Nosferatu's reads do not make any sense. He's just repeating "tone" or "they just feel like it." If he's town, the only way I'll figure that out is by having him go in-depth on all those reads to the point where the thought process is just too deep to have been faked. I'd really appreciate it if you don't interrupt me when I'm questioning others and discourage them from answering by making comments like the one you made.

5. I'm not robotic nor do I expect anyone else to be. I do think there's a certain playstyle clash between a rational player like me and an emotional player like you but that's something I'm accounting for in my reads. What I want is for people to explain their reads beyond "gut" or "tone" or "it just is so." Every read can be explained and I don't buy that people have reads that they are incapable of explaining.

6. I defended you yesterday from Ranger because I found Ranger's read on you shallow. I stand by the fact that you and SnarkySnowman don't make sense as partners which is the entirety of Ranger's read. Considering I was voting SnarkySnowman, it should have been obvious that I suspected him - and by extension that I didn't really have much suspicion of you. After Snarky flipped town, I reconsidered my reads. Your Snarky vote I wanted explained in-depth with knowledge now that Snarky is town. If Snarky had flipped mafia, I wouldn't have thought it worthy of much investigation. I explained this.

7. I can't find townreads this game because of players like Nosferatu "they just are town. Tone." Because of players like Massive who show up once every two or three days and post nothing that's readable. Because of players like Masquerade who have very minimal input. Because of players like SnarkySnowman who are impossible to read. Titus is hard to read also by the way - I've mislynched her slot in Blitz games twice. Then there's you. Then there's Killthestory ("I hammered my townread because I wanted to push actual mafia but now that D3 has arrived, I've forgotten about it entirely!") I've been trying my best to squeeze alignment-indicative reads out of players so I can get a sense of the game. I'm not in the mood to appreciate mafia advice from someone who's put in half as much effort as me so let's cut that out and focus on game-relevant stuff.

[Nosferatu]

If you want something analytical out of me, you shouldn't have looked in my town reads for it.

[OceanWind]

I didn't specify town reads. I just asked you to explain your reads. It doesn't seem like there's anything behind your townreads other than "they just seem like town" which doesn't make any sense to me because there has to be a reason why their posts made you feel that way.

I don't really buy into "tonal reads" but if you want to want to elaborate on your non-town reads, I'd like to hear them.

[Masquerade]

Sorry for slacking off. I had the weirdest night where I suddenly lost power, then internet, and a lot of sleep trying to fix it all. And then mother's day today. Will get to this tomorrow.

[Nosferatu]

I didn't specify town reads. I just asked you to explain your reads. It doesn't seem like there's anything behind your townreads other than "they just seem like town" which doesn't make any sense to me because there has to be a reason why their posts made you feel that way.

I don't really buy into "tonal reads" but if you want to want to elaborate on your non-town reads, I'd like to hear them.

when I get a proper scum read I'll make sure to consult you.
UNVOTE:

[OceanWind]

Just explain what your reads are. For someone that made this post,

The whole fucking idea that it's an ok thing announce reads but not go in depth AT ALL is absolutely trash. I'm not necessarily one to talk seeing as I often make votes and not explain those immediately, but when I suggest a possible lynch on someone, I make damn sure to explain why the hell I'm proposing to do so.

This is why I don't know how to sort SS, because I can't know if he fabricated the read on severa or not because of this shitty new read list meta.

I don't get why this is so hard.

[OceanWind]

Here's what I wanted:

What do Killthestory's and Ranger's "tones" look like when they are town, and when they are mafia? What posts in this game corresponded to their town "tone?"

Imperium's

just got that townie feel you guess?

What does that even mean?

Some more of Ollie's genuine posts/ones that you agreed with would be nice.

[OceanWind]

I fail to see how. As scum, my misery would be, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game would therefore be real. As town, obviously, my misery was, very clearly, not faked; the desire to have not played the game was therefore real. What in there could be considered town?

The use of such strong language (cancer) is more likely to come from someone that feels like they're being wronged than from someone who knows that the suspicion on her was accurate.

But if you claim you'd have done it as mafia, I won't argue with you.

[OceanWind]

So lowell who as far as I can tell replaced out of the last scum game he rolled isn't as involved or as scum hunty as the last game I read, didn't replace out of here but offered to stay in this game when he was force replaced as a hydra. I still think his reaction to ABR looking scummy matched mine and feel natural.

I'll review this on my reread this week, but this is one I like.

Let's look at Lowell's actual posts. ISO him and read along. He starts with a silly push on KTthecreeper, early townreads on MagnaOfIllusion, and yourself neither of which are explained or feel like they have a strong basis considering they were on pages 2-3. Expresses slight suspicion of ChurchOfMercy. This is the post you are strongly townreading him for? All he said was

I'm also a little worried CoM might be scum. Which makes me sad. And that Killthestory might be town. Which makes me sadder.

I found it town also because it matched with my thoughts as well (and by the way, using that logic, you should also be townreading me - I was the first vote on ChurchOfMercy and you guys voted because you agreed with me. Why townread Lowell but not me?). But that's a small reason for townreading him that just doesn't hold this far into the game.

What else does Lowell do? He votes Church because he's sheeping Killthestory. That doesn't make sense with being sad at Killthestory being town (someone brought this up before I think). Then he re-iterates suspicion of KTthecreeper (which means that rubbish case at the beginning was actually serious and not as you say, some reaction-test to move the game forward). Then suspicion of Bellaphant for "asking and answering pointless questions." Then this unnatural confidence that he has the game solved with ChurchOfMercy, Bellaphant, and KTthecreeper as the team. Considering his reasoning was so weak, and he was barely participating in the game, this looks like fake confidence. Then he resorts to prod-dodging for a while.

Once he's back, he says he's getting townvibes from Snarky. Then that changes to "pretty comfortable calling Snarky town." In between this time, Snarky hadn't made a single post. And he had only made one post before Lowell gave his initial townread which was a naked list of reads. Out of Lowell three suspects, Snarky had Bellaphant as a townlean, ChurchOfMercy as a scumlean, and did not mention KTthecreeper/Xis at all. So, there was nothing in the reads there that would have made Lowell think "this matched my thoughts and is so town." It looked like Lowell just wanted to be contrary and townread a townie that other people suspected.

D2 - he posts some vague stuff about my case being "okay" but Severa's reaction being bad, and that he's ready to lolhammer whenever. Then Ollie pushes him and he omgus's Ollie. This bit in particular is hilarious:

It's my experience that the first person to point out "Lowell has been dodging, let's get him" in invariably scum.

That almost reads like "I'm going to lurk it out and if you call me out on it, you are mafia" which completely disregards that there is pro-town motivation to push lurkers.

Bella could be scum, too, but yeah, I'd eat my hat if ollie is actually town. Cautious as whoa. ISO that rube and join the wagon.

So, with no previous suspicion of Ollie, just based on Ollie's vote on him, he has this eat-my-hat level of confidence. Then rather than tell us to lynch Ollie, he disappears for several days without giving a shit about the game when he had such confidence in a suspect.

The strong townread on heuristically_alone is another one I find ridiculous. Serious, how in the world does anyone get a strong townread on heurstically_alone? I get null. I get "not necessarily suspicious." I don't get "strong townread." But of course, Lowell isn't going to give us reasons.

The rest is fluff. So, clearly he doesn't care about the game. Has close to zero involvement. The majority of his posts are uninvolved prod-dodges with weird flashes of extreme confidence here and there. He's so uninvolved people wanted him force-replaced. But he makes this little quote over here:

well GL masq.... let me know if you need a hydra partner...

and that excuses his low activity? I'm not sure if this was even a serious offer to hydra. So, I'm not seeing it at all. Like I get that his suspicion of Church matched yours and mine but considering his posts as whole, that just isn't enough for me to townread him.

Now that I went through his posts, I actually think there's a decent chance he could be mafia. Going to look through Masquerade's posting.