Open 638: Friends and Enemies! (And Enemies!) - GAME OVER!

[BTD6_maker]

In post 195, BTD6_maker wrote:
In post 185, Masquerade wrote:
@BTD6: I checked that game, newbie 1700 right? Wow, I feel sad you had to go through that. Such a bad effort and something that barely happens. I've also seen town get frustrated enough to selfvote and I've thought about doing it once or twice as well but it's bad form to do as town. As scum as well btw, either way it's screwing over your team.


It mostly is bad regardless of alignment. However, for Town there pretty much never is any advantage. As scum, it mostly harms your faction but at least there is the hope that you are helping your partner to escape detection or make them look good or making a Townie look bad. For example, when RadiantCowbells self-voted I was not sure of his intentions but it may hae been to make me look suspicious even before the flip. Tojam2 just gave up - we had a guaranteed win anyway. Essentially, self-voting as scum (when there is another partner alive) is essentially a form of self-bussing.

I can't understand Kasumeat's motivation though as Town. Kasumeat, if you are Town, please unvote.


Self voting usually means three things:

1. Frustated town.

2. Scum faking frustated town.

3. Scum who just self hammered.

I think we are in the first situation here.

If he is frustrated town, then unvoting himself will undoubtedly be beneficial to Town. This s why if he is Town he should unvote in his next post.

[Masquerade]

Hiya, gonna have a busy weekend so [/b]I'll be v/la until Sunday night or Monday morning[/b]
Will try to post something decent later today.

[Masquerade]

Oh messed up a tag.. Edit for mod-visibility:

Hiya, gonna have a busy weekend so

I'll be v/la until Sunday night or Monday morning

Will try to post something decent later today.

[Ozymandias]

Kill, I am interested to hear why you think Ranger is Town.

VOTE: Ranger

No point keeping my vote on Karnos, for now.

I would lynch inside [ Ranger, Creature, Karnos ], at the moment. Maybe Random, but I really liked their early posts on tone.

Town reading Kill, Kasu and Masq.

Everyone else is either null, close to it or I have to re read their posts.

Spoiler:

The first was on masq's defense of kop which seemed to be jumping the gun to try and defend them on one point after a small amount of suspicion. The situation with Oz and kas is different.

I'd like to see how; they both seemed fairly similar to me. (The only difference being, I townread Kop and think Masquerade was white knighting, whereas I think both Kasumeat and Ozymandias are scum.)

Kop was only being questioned on one thing with no votes on him, there is a large possibility of kasumeat being lynched.
UNVOTE:
I'm not convinced this isn't mislynch bait.

Mod Notes:
- <3

<3 to randomidget who returned the love. He gets bolded hearts because he's special.

awwww <3

Buddying with the mod, scum confirmed. Clearly has privileges.

What made you change your mind from your first vote on Kasu to now?

Some of his posts have definitely been scummy, so I voted him. But i'm starting to get a gut feeling this is a mislynch from his most recent posts.

Which posts did you find scummy? If not him, who would you want to switch to?

Spoiler:

In post 195, BTD6_maker wrote:
In post 185, Masquerade wrote:
@BTD6: I checked that game, newbie 1700 right? Wow, I feel sad you had to go through that. Such a bad effort and something that barely happens. I've also seen town get frustrated enough to selfvote and I've thought about doing it once or twice as well but it's bad form to do as town. As scum as well btw, either way it's screwing over your team.


It mostly is bad regardless of alignment. However, for Town there pretty much never is any advantage. As scum, it mostly harms your faction but at least there is the hope that you are helping your partner to escape detection or make them look good or making a Townie look bad. For example, when RadiantCowbells self-voted I was not sure of his intentions but it may hae been to make me look suspicious even before the flip. Tojam2 just gave up - we had a guaranteed win anyway. Essentially, self-voting as scum (when there is another partner alive) is essentially a form of self-bussing.

I can't understand Kasumeat's motivation though as Town. Kasumeat, if you are Town, please unvote.


Self voting usually means three things:

1. Frustated town.

2. Scum faking frustated town.

3. Scum who just self hammered.

I think we are in the first situation here.

If he is frustrated town, then unvoting himself will undoubtedly be beneficial to Town. This s why if he is Town he should unvote in his next post.

While I agree self voting is bad, in most situations, I really don't see the point in what you are saying. Would Kasu unvoting himself in the next post change your view on him?

[Charloux]

Now that i think about it, if Kasumeat wanted to end the day early, he would've waited for L-1 before voting... Guess he really was frustrated

[karnos]

I see some serious discussion went down.

Reading back, I wasn't really feeling the Kasumeat wagon until he decided to vote himself. I see no good reasons for town to self vote, it's either a scum ploy or a weak town player, neither one is useful to keep around. Still, it's yet early in the day, no reason to rush to hammer.

Kasumeat: if you are town, please unvote. Give your top reads. If you are scum, carry on get lynched.

Ozy: just to respond, even though you have already switched votes: my "careful" posting style is just how I post. Read through the start of last game if you care enough, I was accused of similiar right from the start.

[Ozymandias]

Kts has 2 votes, I'd understand being careful for a derphammer but the wagon isn't even close to hammer. Seems like you're being overly careful. What exactly is the 'lead' you have on Kts? What do you think is scummy about his play so far that warrants a maybe-vote?

Mostly his early posts, for example #21 doesn't really serve much benefit, it just makes people less likely to post. Don't get me wrong, it's not a strong scum read of any sort, it's just the most I have seen so far this game. I personally think that reads on day 1 are unlikely to be accurate except through dumb luck anyway.

I guess it doesn't hurt to back up my thinking with an actual vote.
UNVOTE: dr dolittle
VOTE: Killthestory

How does the post you linked make people less likely to post?

Can you answer this, Karnos?

.

Ozy: just to respond, even though you have already switched votes: my "careful" posting style is just how I post. Read through the start of last game if you care enough, I was accused of similiar right from the start.

I will, if I have the time. What do you think about Ranger?

[karnos]

Kts has 2 votes, I'd understand being careful for a derphammer but the wagon isn't even close to hammer. Seems like you're being overly careful. What exactly is the 'lead' you have on Kts? What do you think is scummy about his play so far that warrants a maybe-vote?

Mostly his early posts, for example #21 doesn't really serve much benefit, it just makes people less likely to post. Don't get me wrong, it's not a strong scum read of any sort, it's just the most I have seen so far this game. I personally think that reads on day 1 are unlikely to be accurate except through dumb luck anyway.

I guess it doesn't hurt to back up my thinking with an actual vote.
UNVOTE: dr dolittle
VOTE: Killthestory

How does the post you linked make people less likely to post?

Can you answer this, Karnos?

.

Ozy: just to respond, even though you have already switched votes: my "careful" posting style is just how I post. Read through the start of last game if you care enough, I was accused of similiar right from the start.

I will, if I have the time. What do you think about Ranger?

1: didn't it? He posted, then he jumped on the next person to post, and then there was a little back-and-forth directly talking about how killthestory made the board silent, then nothing until the next morning.

2: not much. Ranger, BTD, killthesttory are all the players I played with previously. While I had a slight scum leaning on killthestory, I didn't have much feeling one way or the other for Ranger - or BTD for that matter. However, I do consider posts like #152 to be scummy, yet in my fist game it was been a tactic most often used by town, so I am not considering it to be a strong negative tell. I will say that whenever someone just flat out tells me to vote someone without clear reasoning, I take it with a grain of salt.

[karnos]

This game messes with my usual strategic thinking, because of the odd format. The largest "buddy" groups are actually town masons, and a heavy push to lynch a verified scum doesn't actually indicate the pusher is town, as they could just be the other scum faction. This might not be a terribly useful post, but these facts are constantly on my mind and I guess I want to remind everyone else that tells from a normal 1-scum faction game don't fully apply to this game.

[Randomnamechange]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: masquerade

[Kasumeat]

[/unvote]Kasumeat[/unvote]
VOTE: Ranger

[BTD6_maker]

UNVOTE:

This makes Kasumeat look more like a genuine frustrated player who realised his mistake. I'm not saying he can't be scum, but his self-voting is no longer a strong scumtell to me.

[Kasumeat]

Kasumeat: if you are town, please unvote. Give your top reads. If you are scum, carry on get lynched.

I've already explained my Ranger scumread, but I'll reiterate. Ranger admitted her own mistake with the read list. And while I do believe her reason she gave for why she made the mistake, I think it's a mistake that scum are more likely to make than town. Also, there's the fact that she's supposedly this savant-like scumreader and she's wrong as fuck about me but still maintains her stance. I expect better of The Legendary Ranger. The one thing that gives me a shred of doubt about her is that she might just be a spiteful and petty town like I, admittedly, have been this game too. But unlike her, I'll admit that my mistakes are a reasonable reason to vote me. I don't think the wagon against me is necessarily scum-driven.

Kop is also scummy as fuck. His entire posting history, 3 days into this game, is one RV plus one vote on me with the sole justification being that I wasn't reading carefully,

immediately after Creature just admitted that he didn't read the thread carefully.

And after that, Creature defended Kop's vote by saying that Kop had other reasons to vote for me when Kop's #104 explicitly states that it was the sole reason. If that isn't buddying, I don't know what is. This hasn't been a low-content game so the only reason to be lurking that hard is if you're scum with no pressure on you.

[Ozymandias]

I won't be able to post much until Tuesday, sorry about this.

UNVOTE:

This makes Kasumeat look more like a genuine frustrated player who realised his mistake. I'm not saying he can't be scum, but his self-voting is no longer a strong scumtell to me.

So when he votes himself he doesn't look like a genuinely frustated player, but now that he unvoted himself he suddenly looks such? Could you explain how your opinion on Kasu changed over the time, starting from when you voted him?

Kasumeat: if you are town, please unvote. Give your top reads. If you are scum, carry on get lynched.

I've already explained my Ranger scumread, but I'll reiterate. Ranger admitted her own mistake with the read list. And while I do believe her reason she gave for why she made the mistake, I think it's a mistake that scum are more likely to make than town. Also, there's the fact that she's supposedly this savant-like scumreader and she's wrong as fuck about me but still maintains her stance. I expect better of The Legendary Ranger. The one thing that gives me a shred of doubt about her is that she might just be a spiteful and petty town like I, admittedly, have been this game too. But unlike her, I'll admit that my mistakes are a reasonable reason to vote me. I don't think the wagon against me is necessarily scum-driven.

Kop is also scummy as fuck. His entire posting history, 3 days into this game, is one RV plus one vote on me with the sole justification being that I wasn't reading carefully,

immediately after Creature just admitted that he didn't read the thread carefully.

And after that, Creature defended Kop's vote by saying that Kop had other reasons to vote for me when Kop's #104 explicitly states that it was the sole reason. If that isn't buddying, I don't know what is. This hasn't been a low-content game so the only reason to be lurking that hard is if you're scum with no pressure on you.

That's a bad reason to scum read Ranger, I really don't think it's alignment indicative in any way. He is scum because his reads are fake, not because he put the Moderator in his reads list.

I don't think I can remember a single post from Kop, will look into it when I have the time.

[Ozymandias]

Kts has 2 votes, I'd understand being careful for a derphammer but the wagon isn't even close to hammer. Seems like you're being overly careful. What exactly is the 'lead' you have on Kts? What do you think is scummy about his play so far that warrants a maybe-vote?

Mostly his early posts, for example #21 doesn't really serve much benefit, it just makes people less likely to post. Don't get me wrong, it's not a strong scum read of any sort, it's just the most I have seen so far this game. I personally think that reads on day 1 are unlikely to be accurate except through dumb luck anyway.

I guess it doesn't hurt to back up my thinking with an actual vote.
UNVOTE: dr dolittle
VOTE: Killthestory

How does the post you linked make people less likely to post?

Can you answer this, Karnos?

.

Ozy: just to respond, even though you have already switched votes: my "careful" posting style is just how I post. Read through the start of last game if you care enough, I was accused of similiar right from the start.

I will, if I have the time. What do you think about Ranger?

1: didn't it? He posted, then he jumped on the next person to post, and then there was a little back-and-forth directly talking about how killthestory made the board silent, then nothing until the next morning.

The only players who should be afraid to post are scum players, after the post from Kill, are scum players.

[Creature]

I've already explained my Ranger scumread, but I'll reiterate. Ranger admitted her own mistake with the read list. And while I do believe her reason she gave for why she made the mistake, I think it's a mistake that scum are more likely to make than town. Also, there's the fact that she's supposedly this savant-like scumreader and she's wrong as fuck about me but still maintains her stance. I expect better of The Legendary Ranger. The one thing that gives me a shred of doubt about her is that she might just be a spiteful and petty town like I, admittedly, have been this game too. But unlike her, I'll admit that my mistakes are a reasonable reason to vote me. I don't think the wagon against me is necessarily scum-driven.

I don't agree lynching someone over a mistake. I feel like this was an NAI mistake.

Kop is also scummy as fuck. His entire posting history, 3 days into this game, is one RV plus one vote on me with the sole justification being that I wasn't reading carefully,

immediately after Creature just admitted that he didn't read the thread carefully.

And after that, Creature defended Kop's vote by saying that Kop had other reasons to vote for me when Kop's #104 explicitly states that it was the sole reason. If that isn't buddying, I don't know what is. This hasn't been a low-content game so the only reason to be lurking that hard is if you're scum with no pressure on you.

Excuse me, I didn't defend Kop's vote.

[Kasumeat]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p7920414]
Excuse me, I didn't defend Kop's vote.[/quote]

Oh fuck that was Masq, my mistake.

[Creature]

No point keeping my vote on Karnos, for now.

Why not?

VOTE: karnos

[Masquerade]

So... Kasumeat.. Anything you wanna talk to me about?

[Kasumeat]

Oh, whoops, that was meant to have a readslist.

{randomidget}
{Creature, Kop}
{Charloux, karnos, BTD6, Javajoe}
{Killthestory}
{Masquerade, Kasumeat}

I'm thinking, but in the meantime, sure. Why did you speak for Kop and defend his vote against me?

[Kasumeat]

Oops, didn't mean to quote that. The above post is directed at Masq.

[Kasumeat]

{randomidget}
{Creature, Kop}
{Javajoe}
{Charloux, karnos}
{Killthestory}
{BTD6, Masquerade, Kasumeat}
Three.

First, having posted LITERALLY NOTHING other than a single RV, Kop is somehow the second-most town player in the game according to Ranger.

VOTE: kasumeat

I like this vote simply because it appears he isn't reading the thread in great deal like town would.

Now we have this really stupid vote from Kop, his only other post of the game...

Oh, whoops, that was meant to have a readslist.

{randomidget}
{Creature, Kop}
{Charloux, karnos, BTD6, Javajoe}
{Killthestory}
{Masquerade, Kasumeat}

... yet somehow this hasn't hurt Kop's towncred according to Ranger.

{randomidget, Kop}
{Creature}
{Charloux, karnos, BTD6, Javajoe}
{Killthestory}
{Masquerade}
{Kasumeat}

Mod: I moved my vote to Masquerade, but I'm still listed on the Killthestory wagon.

Though,
VOTE: Kasumeat.
Masquerade's no townread, but his 117 puts him a tier above Kasumeat. (They were otherwise equal in scumminess until that point.)

And now, Kop having posted absolutely nothing since then, Ranger now has Kop as super-town.

Ranger's reads are fake as fuck and she is scummy as fuck.

[Masquerade]

I'm thinking, but in the meantime, sure. Why did you speak for Kop and defend his vote against me?

I didn't defend his vote. I agreed with his point against you. I don''t get why it is so hard for people to differentiate between the 2. I also explained what I thought i saw and asked Kop whether I was close to what he saw. Other than that it means nothing, because even though he has a point on you that i agree with, the 2 of you can potentially be opposing scum.
This is multiball, it;s a little different.

[Masquerade]

Also, Ranger has played with Kop before, I have played with Kop before, maybe you should start listening and just accept that the inactivity is not alignment indicative for Kop.

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: kasumeat

I like this vote simply because it appears he isn't reading the thread in great deal like town would.

Kop didn't say you weren't reading.

Yeah, that's a poor vote kop. His push on Joe would be a better reason

I kinda think that is part of the reason though.

Here is Masq "not defending" Kop's vote.

I'm thinking, but in the meantime, sure. Why did you speak for Kop and defend his vote against me?

I didn't defend his vote. I agreed with his point against you. I don''t get why it is so hard for people to differentiate between the 2. I also explained what I thought i saw and asked Kop whether I was close to what he saw. Other than that it means nothing, because even though he has a point on you that i agree with, the 2 of you can potentially be opposing scum.
This is multiball, it;s a little different.

No, you didn't agree with his point against me. His point against me was that I wasn't reading the thread carefully. You didn't state that you agreed with that, but rather you said he voted me because of my push on Joe. You are blatantly lying right now.