Open 638: Friends and Enemies! (And Enemies!) - GAME OVER!

[karnos]

As for the whole mason claim: the correct play here is for me to neither verify nor contradict Killthestory's claim, for obvious reasons.

Obvious reason being, you are his scum partner?

I think we should all be in agreement that if KTS flips as anything but a mason, his vouch for ranger and kop is invalid and both have a strong potential to be scum.

I don't see a pro-town reason to not immediately out a scum KTS, given the opportunity to do so.

[karnos]

Another possibility, of course, is that KTS is scum who randomly happened to name an actual mason as a mason, by pure chance. But I'm not sure what incentive a mason would have to not out KTS's lie.

[Ozymandias]

Another possibility, of course, is that KTS is scum who randomly happened to name an actual mason as a mason, by pure chance. But I'm not sure what incentive a mason would have to not out KTS's lie.

This would be irrelevant, they could just say that they are not Mason and Kill is lying and they expose scum without outing themselves as mason.

There is no reason for scum!Kill to make this play D1, fakeclaiming mason makes sense only later in the game from a scum PoV. And it doesn't strike me as a gambit either, since I am not seeing the benefits, besides having all the Town angry at you.

I don't know about Kop ( where is he, by the way? ) and Ranger ( still think he is scum ), but Kill is definitely Town.

[karnos]

Are you suggesting that KTS is actually a mason, but is lying about who the other masons are?

[karnos]

no when I was in my scum perspective before I looked back at my role, Ranger seemed pretty obvtown. I agree moreso with his reads here because now I know I'm actually scum, and that when I was in my scum mindset, he was scumreading me. His reads are correct this game, and I like them. He's town af dude lol.

BTD6 is not town tho

Ozy, it was this post that lead KTS down the road of claiming mason. I agree it would be silly for a scum to claim mason day 1 in a typical day, but after making a huge misspost like this he had to cover it up somehow so he claimed he meant to say mason.

[Ozymandias]

I am suggesting that Kill is either:

1. Mason who is telling the truth.

2. VT who is gambiting.

3. Mason who is lying about the other two masons.

In all of these cases, Kill is Town. For now, I will work under the assumption that Ranger and Kop ( and Kill ) could not be Masons.

no when I was in my scum perspective before I looked back at my role, Ranger seemed pretty obvtown. I agree moreso with his reads here because now I know I'm actually scum, and that when I was in my scum mindset, he was scumreading me. His reads are correct this game, and I like them. He's town af dude lol.

BTD6 is not town tho

Ozy, it was this post that lead KTS down the road of claiming mason. I agree it would be silly for a scum to claim mason day 1 in a typical day, but after making a huge misspost like this he had to cover it up somehow so he claimed he meant to say mason.

They could have just said they typed scum instead of Town, by mistake, which they did and I think it's what happened here. Nothing too hard to shrug off as a simple mistake.

Scum!kill would have waited to see the reaction of people to it, instead of thinking on the spot of a gambit who would probably lead to his death.

[Ozymandias]

Kop is due for a prod in about 8 hours, by the way.

[BTD6_maker]

4. Fakeclaiming scum (possibly pretending to be 2 or 3)

Without confirmation, I'm not convinced. If he is a Mason, why lie about the others? Surely it would suffice to say "I am a Mason" without specifically naming two non-Masons. In fact, if he does this, chances are 13/18 that he has called a scum a Mason.

We should probably wagon KTS. If he really is a Mason, surely Ranger and Kop will support him at L-1. Also, if he is scum, consider the possibility that neither Ranger nor Kop are his partner.

[Randomnamechange]

I'm interested to hear why you think I'm scum.

Sure.

Top class play coming from kts, not calling L-1 on page 2. Confident in the vote now.
Also kts, I was the first person to vote you. I'm not jumping on the wagon, I'm returning to it.

This post came after Kill accused you of OMGUSing ( is that a term? ). While I don't really put much stock in OMGUS as a reliable scum tell, your first vote on Kill was in the very first post of the game, so clearly not serious, which makes your answer to Kill strange. How does the fact that you voted Kill in the first post of the game means that you are not "jumping on the wagon"?

Yeah, that's a poor vote kop. His push on Joe would be a better reason

Masq's defense of Kop was a bit off.

Both of these posts gave me the impression of someone distancing himself from the conflict, they are pretty general statements, who seem to doubtcast without actually exposing themselves.

I know you elaborated on them, once me and ranger ( I think ) asked, but that was my first impression of them.

Your entrance was really good, as I said, so there is that, but the rest of your play has been meh.

Also, you voted a guy who said he was going to be V/LA until Monday morning, like five posts after he said it. I really don't think that's a good vote.

You are the less comfortable of my scumreads, as I already said somewhere, which is why I was interested in BTD's read on you.

1. The thing about kts was a joke
2. I wasn't distancing myself. I was talking about it. Literally the opposite.
It didn't cross my mind about masquerade being on V/LA
UNVOTE:
VOTE: charloux

[Randomnamechange]

4. Fakeclaiming scum (possibly pretending to be 2 or 3)

Without confirmation, I'm not convinced. If he is a Mason, why lie about the others? Surely it would suffice to say "I am a Mason" without specifically naming two non-Masons. In fact, if he does this, chances are 13/18 that he has called a scum a Mason.

We should probably wagon KTS. If he really is a Mason, surely Ranger and Kop will support him at L-1. Also, if he is scum, consider the possibility that neither Ranger nor Kop are his partner.

This is an awful idea. Masons will flip soonish and we can confirm it. No need to do it yet especially as it won't wipe out a scumteam.

[karnos]

They could have just said they typed scum instead of Town, by mistake, which they did and I think it's what happened here. Nothing too hard to shrug off as a simple mistake.

No, because if he thought he was scum then he would have had to think he also had a scum partner. Can't fake that as a VT, but you could plausibly claim that you were a mason, and you just didn't register the fact you had 2 partners instead of 1 as scum.

I'm surprised you don't think it's a possibility that KTS is scum. Not trying to rolefish, but are you trying to subtly hint that you are actually a mason with KTS?

I'm just trying to understand why, if KTS is mason, he would vouch so strongly for some unknown players. If he is wrong about kop or ranger it could be disastrous for town in endgame when they are trusted above actual masons.

[Ozymandias]

I'm surprised you don't think it's a possibility that KTS is scum. Not trying to rolefish, but are you trying to subtly hint that you are actually a mason with KTS?

If you think I am trying to subtly hint at it, then don't point it out, man.

Luckily, nope, that's not the case. I could or could not be mason, with or not with Kill, I am obviously not answering this, no matter my role; but I was not trying to subtly hint at anything, I don't have any problems saying this much.

I am just confident Kill is Town, like I am confident Kasu is Town. Maybe even more.

[Ozymandias]

1. The thing about kts was a joke
2. I wasn't distancing myself. I was talking about it. Literally the opposite.
It didn't cross my mind about masquerade being on V/LA
UNVOTE:
VOTE: charloux

1. Fair enough, I can see how it can be meant this way.

2. You were talking about it in very general terms, your tone seemed distanced. That was my impression.

3. Alright, I guess.

[Ozymandias]

Wow..... This game.... Wtf, why did the masons claim day 1??? Really guys, I think it has to be legit because by now a real mason would have countered. But I also agree that we shouldn't rush things because we have so much time left. Give everyone a chance to respond. Also, if this is a fake claim, please only one mason counter. I doubt it is a fake claim but just in case. I don't like karnos' latest post against kts. I understand you think it may be fake, but if it is we will know soon, no need to push the issue so hard right now. If it is true, bad luck for getting kop as a mason considering how inactive he is. For now I need to...

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Javajoe24

Almost forgot about this post. The reactions looked fake to me.

Do you have some reads, Joe?

[Ozymandias]

reaction*

[Randomnamechange]

Yeah, that was poor from Joe. Probably put them at null-scum for now.

[Masquerade]

Too much happened for me to respond to rn but will try to get in tonight.

[Charloux]

@Random: you know... Please stick with a vote for more than 2 posts, or it won't hold any credibility.

[KuroiXHF]

So due to this cluster fuck, I'm adding another week to the deadline - three days more than what we've lost.

Also, prod-clocks are reset. Everyone is now treated as if they have just posted.

[Masquerade]

Intentionally or not, you're playing exactly how a fakeclaiming scum would play in your spot

I am also new, this is my 3rd game, 2nd on this site.

So how do you know how a fakeclaiming scum plays?

Wow..... This game.... Wtf, why did the masons claim day 1??? Really guys, I think it has to be legit because by now a real mason would have countered. But I also agree that we shouldn't rush things because we have so much time left. Give everyone a chance to respond. Also, if this is a fake claim, please only one mason counter. I doubt it is a fake claim but just in case. I don't like karnos' latest post against kts. I understand you think it may be fake, but if it is we will know soon, no need to push the issue so hard right now. If it is true, bad luck for getting kop as a mason considering how inactive he is. For now I need to...

UNVOTE:

Hate this post.

VOTE: javajoe

I also wasn't much impressed by Karnos and charloux, but Karnos seems to really believe in his scumread on Kts which is something I'd sooner attribute to town than scum. Even if this is multiball.

[Randomnamechange]

Nice doubtcasting there Charloux.

[karnos]

I don't have much to say, the downtime kinda ruined my train of thought. I am also a little surprised that nothing really came out of the whole KTS-Kop-ranger = mason thing, I am still thinking something fishy is going on. Given the absence of any counterclaims, I don't know what to believe anymore. kop still hasn't posted.

There is an interesting web of buddying going on, I may try to decipher things and see if there are any clues from that.

[Ozymandias]

I am not used to day phases so long.

Anyway, I am leaning Town on Karnos, liked their posts recently.

Still waiting for Kop to comment on Kill's claim or on anything, really.

[Kasumeat]

So then both claimers get lynched and you've traded a scum for a mason which is a bad trade for the scum.

In a normal game, sure. In this game, one scum faction comes out clearly ahead in such an exchange.

Maybe it's still overall good for town, but it's even better for town if the 3 masons can drive a lynch into KTS without directly coming out, isn't it?

Whatever, just forget I brought it up. I think most likely KTS is indeed what he says he is.
-----------------------------

Back to scum hunting, I'm truly puzzled at the "kop is town" reads. Hiding so much is more often than not a scum tactic. And if kop does it every game, that certainly isn't indicative of him being town, it's just a null indication. So far ranger and KTS are the two pushing the idea that kop is obvious town...

Between the two, I trust ranger a bit less, especially given the recent discussion on KTS' role. Gotta put my vote where my mouth is-

VOTE: ranger

Obviously subject to change if anything comes out against KTS.

So I've thought about this some more, and contrary to what I said earlier, Karnos is looking somewhat scummy to me rather than VI. I neglected the obvious benefit to Karnos' post which is forcing all the masons to claim. There is still a strong element of "this is too scummy to be scum" which in my limited experience is actually true, so consider him a scum-lean for me.

[Kasumeat]

So how do you know how a fakeclaiming scum plays?

Because it happened in my first game on this site: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65937
It's an ongoing game though so I can't elaborate further.