Mini 1800 - Game Over

[Saru]

While kappy is barely posting because he is in Kansas, there are a number of player who have been posting even less, or not at all in the past few days. Why single him out?

The ones I haven't seen post in some time are Shady(being replaced still), Sick(also still being replaced), Mizzy(said she was taking a break, but has been a while since then), Species(he did offer a prodge but has yet to post since then), and Snork(who hasn't posted since he came back from his niece's graduation, so pretty much 3 days).

It wasn't a single out of Kappy more than it was looking towards the future. I thought he meant he

couldn't

focus on mafia for a whole week, but he cleared up by saying it just isn't his

main

focus right now, which is fine. There are only 3 people out of the 5 I listed who don't have valid excuses for not posting. But they might come back into it with a prodge and then post some real content. Kappy's situation(I felt) was totally different.

[Mizzytastic]

This is a unashamed prod-dodge, though I will read back up. I'm currrently having to sort some stuff out with the listmods. I will read up and try to post something later today, but I might be having to replace out. If I do I'll try to rememer to come back after the game to explain why.

For now though I do remember that Persivul asked me who I was ok voting. At the time he asked I was happy voting Karnos or Shady, as I wanted to poke Shady more - he had said some things I wasn't sure I was happy with. I could compromise on Kappy but I really wasn't sure if that was scummy or just style s it wasn't my favourite place. I wasn't sure about sick but once he had explained himself I didn't think it was the best place to vote. Especially as I felt like Shady had said something that might have been indicative of thinking he was town. Of course this is all 10 pages old now, but it's where I'm starting from when I read up.

[Persivul]

How many Mafia players did MechaGoomba say are in the game?

368

"because there aren't that many scum in the game"

I didn't say he said how many are in the game, he implied that he knows how many are in the game. I just find his wording a little but too specific. He could have said there are

probably

not that many scum, or he could have said

usually

there won't be that many scum, but instead he wrote as if he knows for a fact exactly how many scum are in the game. A slip, or arrogance? Probably the later, but I want to see what others think so I point it out.

He said "There are always more town than there are scum."

And he's right, and I don't see how you can find that at all specific.

I was specific when I said there are usually 3 scum in a 13 player game. You don't need to be scum to know that. It's general knowledge.

[MechaGoomba]

Later that same day, he starting playing a bit more seriously, the majority of his wagon vanished, and for a time he was only being voted by a single player

The actual ordering is "later that day, his wagon vanished, and then he started playing more seriously." ISO him; everything above 77 is pure fluff with only, what, 2-3 game-relevant one-liners? But then, after 77, he puts out 2 separate readslists. While the second one does come after Persivul and Karnos's vote, he wasn't under particularly serious pressure at the time, and now, when the pressure ramps up, he's inactive.

Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.

Something about this just feels really terrible.
He admits nobody else is going for me, but doesn't actually push me in any way. Town generally aren't that content with being the only one on their scumread.
He fails to actually give any explanation for why he's changing his vote now, of all times. Top of the scumlist, yes, so why not switch to me earlier? Because he didn't have an undefined "bad vibe" then.
And, of course, this vote just coincidentally happens to be placed right after I've finished discussing why I'm unsure that Kappy's scum and I might switch to voting him.

VOTE: karnos
I'm feeling pretty confident in this.

[Snork]

@mod: I apologize - I won't be able to play this game right now. A major project was dumped on me at work on Friday and it just doesn't give me the time I normally have to read a game properly. I will need to be replaced.

[karnos]

He said "There are always more town than there are scum."

And he's right, and I don't see how you can find that at all specific.

I was specific when I said there are usually 3 scum in a 13 player game. You don't need to be scum to know that. It's general knowledge.

He made more than one statement. The statement about there being more town than scum is silly and irrelevant, but not a scum tell. It was the other statement, the one I quoted above, that I took issue with.

usually

3 scum in a 13 player
there aren't that many scum in the game

I don't find the first statement to be a scum tell at all, you are stating a fact.

The second statement is the one I find odd, because it's not qualified with a "usually" or "probably". Especially when I didn't even read anyone as definite scum. Mecha was speaking from knowledge. Of course it's crossed my mind that even as a scum, he wouldn't know whether or not another scum team or serial killer exists, but the more I think about it the more I suspect it might have just been both a scum slip and an error, the error being he forgot that there might be more scum than he knows about.

[Persivul]

Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."

There's nothing specific there either.

[karnos]

Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."

There's nothing specific there either.

A scum slip isn't negated because the rest of the post is reasonable.

[karnos]

Actually I missed exactly what you quoted, I thought you were posting the other part of his message.

"there aren't that many scum in the game"

is incredibly specific, when I only indicated 4 potential scum. It means there are 3 or fewer scum in the game.

[qubixes]

Actually I missed exactly what you quoted, I thought you were posting the other part of his message.

"there aren't that many scum in the game"

is incredibly specific, when I only indicated 4 potential scum. It means there are 3 or fewer scum in the game.

I think you're reading it the wrong way. He says that you need more town reads than scum reads, because there are more town than scum in the game. You had 4 scum reads and 3 town reads, so I don't see this "scum slip". He doesn't say here that there can't be 4 scum in the game (though unlikely).

[karnos]

The actual ordering is "later that day, his wagon vanished, and then he started playing more seriously." ISO him; everything above 77 is pure fluff with only, what, 2-3 game-relevant one-liners? But then, after 77, he puts out 2 separate readslists. While the second one does come after Persivul and Karnos's vote, he wasn't under particularly serious pressure at the time, and now, when the pressure ramps up, he's inactive.

Not really, but keep lying, it makes your scum motivation more obvious. 45 53 65 71 - not shiny examples of awesome town posting, but they were legitimate serious posts, as opposed to the random silly posting style kappy was using prior. Two of the three players voting him changed votes after 45, so that is why I read kappy as I did.

Also, "everything above 77 is pure fluff with only, what, 2-3 game-relevant one-liners?"

Care to guess how many game relevant posts you have made up to that point? A big fat ZERO. Of course kappy only had a couple short relevant posts, because that is all that ANYONE had at that point. It was the 3rd page of the thread, we were barely out of RVS. You are making an absurd argument and I am calling you out on it.

Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.

Something about this just feels really terrible.
He admits nobody else is going for me, but doesn't actually push me in any way. Town generally aren't that content with being the only one on their scumread.
He fails to actually give any explanation for why he's changing his vote now, of all times. Top of the scumlist, yes, so why not switch to me earlier? Because he didn't have an undefined "bad vibe" then.
And, of course, this vote just coincidentally happens to be placed right after I've finished discussing why I'm unsure that Kappy's scum and I might switch to voting him.

Oh I see, nice OMGUS. In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell, and I hate it when people act like it is a scum tell, but I can't resist point out how blatant it is in this case.

I didn't switch to you earlier for obvious reasons I'd be happy to reveal later.

[Persivul]

Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."

There's nothing specific there either.

A scum slip isn't negated because the rest of the post is reasonable.

A reasonable statement isn't a slip when you pull it out of context.

[karnos]

And I screwed up the post links, oops. 45 53 65 71

[Kappy]

Actually I missed exactly what you quoted, I thought you were posting the other part of his message.

"there aren't that many scum in the game"

is incredibly specific, when I only indicated 4 potential scum. It means there are 3 or fewer scum in the game.

I think you're reading it the wrong way. He says that you need more town reads than scum reads, because there are more town than scum in the game. You had 4 scum reads and 3 town reads, so I don't see this "scum slip". He doesn't say here that there can't be 4 scum in the game (though unlikely).

Yes, he meant "there aren't that many scum" referring to there not being enough scum to have more scum than town.

[karnos]

w/e. I can see I am in the minority on this thought. All the same, I was reading him as scummy before and after that post for other reasons, even if the slip isn't as telling as I think it is I am still voting him.

[Kappy]

w/e. I can see I am in the minority on this thought. All the same, I was reading him as scummy before and after that post for other reasons,

even if the slip isn't as telling as I think it is I am still voting him.

If there's no actual slip, just your misinterpretation, why would you vote for him? I don't understand that.
VOTE: karnos

[karnos]

If that isn't already clear to you, then no explanation is going to be sufficient.

[qubixes]

Karnos is not looking good at all. To be perfectly honest, I'd be voting him right now if Kappy was answering questions and/or being proactive.

VOTE: mechagoomba

Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.

@karnos

I can easily interpret the OMGUS the other way around actually. Whether he actually voted for you at that point doesn't matter so much.

Btw, you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here. If you truly believe that OMGUS is not a scum tell, then why call it blatant, or bring it up at all. The fact that you say that you don't believe it, kind of makes the acting bit more true about yourself.

[Persivul]

w/e. I can see I am in the minority on this thought. All the same,

I was reading him as scummy before and after that post for other reasons

,

even if the slip isn't as telling as I think it is I am still voting him.

If there's no actual slip, just your misinterpretation, why would you vote for him? I don't understand that.
VOTE: karnos

WTF dude, he addresses that in the very post you quote.

[karnos]

You are not wrong about that first part, I am letting meta-observations from other games slip into my thinking here. However...

you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here

What I actually said:

In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell

How exactly do you read "don't consider it a scum tell" to imply that I think it is a legitimate scum tell?

[qubixes]

You are not wrong about that first part, I am letting meta-observations from other games slip into my thinking here. However...

you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here

What I actually said:

In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell

How exactly do you read "don't consider it a scum tell" to imply that I think it is a legitimate scum tell?

No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you were

acting

that it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:

Oh I see, nice OMGUS. In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell, and I hate it when people act like it is a scum tell, but I can't resist point out how blatant it is in this case.

How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?

[Kappy]

w/e. I can see I am in the minority on this thought. All the same,

I was reading him as scummy before and after that post for other reasons

,

even if the slip isn't as telling as I think it is I am still voting him.

If there's no actual slip, just your misinterpretation, why would you vote for him? I don't understand that.
VOTE: karnos

WTF dude, he addresses that in the very post you quote.

Now I feel stupid. UNVOTE:

[qubixes]

Now I feel stupid. UNVOTE:

Why? Do you think his other reasons are good?

[karnos]

No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you were

acting

that it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:

How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?

Because it still has a meaning. I'm just saying his vote on me might not be motivated purely because he thinks I am scum, but rather as a reaction to me voting him.

[karnos]

It's not just important to separate scum and town, it's also important to figure out which town are playing smart and coming to logical useful conclusions, as opposed to the town that play from emotion and want to lynch the first person to challenge them.

TL;DR: Town can be wrong, and showing why town might be wrong is a useful thing.

In any case, the above is largely a philosophical discussion, because I do believe mechagoomba to be scum. That is, his OMGUS vote isn't what makes him scum, but it certainly doesn't make him town either.