Newbie 1718 [Game Over!] Mafia

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I'm not caught up since my last post, but I'm not even sure if the post I've been working on all day is useful.

I'm trying to figure out the argument given against House (i.e., the initial vote of VC), but now that Doctor Pepper is the only person on that wagon, I'm not sure how useful it'll be. I still would like to know RC's train of thought at the time, and I guess that's why I'm just trying to figure it out on my own.

The post is a really long wall, too.

[Racer64]

though I now see there is a v/la ribbon on the side that I wasn't aware was

Ah, I missed this. I thought it was part of the title or avatar. (Still trying to get used to the forum layout).

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells
I don't believe in attacking someone who has no way of defending themselves. Even though I stand by my initial impression of RC, our info hunt is better placed elsewhere. The day's still young, and it's better to get more info from other people than to try and glean info from someone who can't respond.

That said, I think it was wrong for RC to place a vote knowing he wouldn't be around to give explanation.

House, I'll give a point by point rebuttal to your reply to me in a few mins. I'm having trouble with links and quotes.

[foedufafa]

I need to get ready for work and I'm having trouble formulating my thoughts here so I'll post later tonight. All I'll say for now is that I find the push against House throughout this game to be suspicious. It seems that everyone who has at some point voted for him has done so without providing any real thought process. His behavior thus far has been the most pro-town(meaning to say the most pro-discussion and anti-withholding of information, not to say that I have a serious town read on him). It just seems like a convenient player to turn against up to this point and has lacked any real discourse. Although we're only a few pages in I would like to see a little more of where these players thought processes are coming from.

[House]

His behavior thus far has been the most pro-town(meaning to say the most pro-discussion and anti-withholding of information, not to say that I have a serious town read on him).

Good!

I'm glad to see that you don't assign reads based on actions. Scum can act in pro-town ways, as well.

Motive is far more important than actions. This is why I am townreading RC despite his anti-town actions.

Look beyond what you see on the screen and try to figure out what the other person is trying to accomplish.

[foedufafa]

I'm trying to figure out the argument given against House (i.e., the initial vote of VC), but now that Doctor Pepper is the only person on that wagon, I'm not sure how useful it'll be. I still would like to know RC's train of thought at the time, and I guess that's why I'm just trying to figure it out on my own.

Makesnosense is still voting for him as well, I believe, unless I missed something. He initially voted with no reasoning. To be fair, it was still RVS but they later said they didn't provide an explanation in order to create more discussion. I kind of see what they claim they were trying to do, it doesn't make NO sense but it doesn't make much sense. I'd prefer to see more of where their head is at. They then reaffirmed their vote citing House's defensiveness but I'm not sure what they mean by that. His butting heads with RC seems consistent with his behavior in this game so far, going back to post 28: "My vote is not a desire to see him lynched, yet. It is my intention to make such play known as anti-town and unacceptable. I want to see reasons for votes and reads, be they scumreads or townreads."

MNS I'd like to hear more from you about where this game is at.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Under the spoiler tags, I have a post-by-post analysis of the suspicion directed towards House, because I'm honestly still unsure about why people are legitimately suspecting House. Like I said before, it's kind of dying out, but I feel as though the explanation behind it was lacking, so I'm going to try to amke a little sense out of it. There's also some explanation about my play from around RVS because it centered around House, but I'm also going to summarize the spoiler tag because I think you guys would prefer analysis over summary.

Spoiler: A post-by-post summary of the case vs. House

#10

Here, House votes for Smurphinator. This looks like an otherwise normal RVS vote, however...

#11

I decide to pull an interesting reaction test. Honestly, from the start, I saw nothing wrong with House's vote. There was some genuine curiosity about it, but I was not thinking "Oh! House is trying to quicklynch/bus Smurphinator!" or anything like that. I commented on it because I wanted to see how everyone

besides

House would react to me questioning his "bandwagon" vote. A two person bandwagon, as I hope you all know I know, is not actually a bandwagon and not really anything worth pursuing, especially during RVS.

The point of the reaction test, in case I forget to elaborate on that, is that I wanted to see who in the game is jumpier with their votes and the type to just agree with whatever is implied. By "kinda-sorta-not-really" hinting at suspicion, I can see who dismisses it or who agrees with it, seeing the question as a good reason to vote. Maybe it's not the best reaction test, but I hesitated a lot before making that post.

#12

This is just a EBWOP but I do fix a typo that affects the meaning of what I wrote above. I just emphasize that I'm

not

trying to cast suspicion onto House. That doesn't mean I townread him or anything, it's just not that I am not trying to build a case on him.

Posts #13 - #16 are all OOG posts and thus irrelevant.

#17

Harlii is the first to respond to my reaction test, and I would say that he reacted in the most pro-town, townreading way possible, at least to me. He was open to discuss the concern and take note of it, but took it with a reasonable grain of salt. I don't think Harlii scumreads House because of my concern, either, which is what I want.

It's questioning, not suspicion.

#18

Makesnosense's intro was, regardless of its intention, pretty bad. It casts a vote for someone whose actions are being taken into consideration, which makes it look as though it's voting because it actually suspects House. It would have been OK for MNS to suspect House because of what I said, but his lack of reasoning shows that he's either:

• A: Trying to be a yes-man, therefore gaining towncred by agreeing with a (non-existent) wagon before it's so popular that hammering is a possibility. This is a scum motivation, naturally.
  
  B: Actually suspicious of House and felt that he didn't need to explain his vote because he's agreeing with me. By receiving a vote, he's given more pressure to respond to me. This is mostly a town motivation, and it seems like something a fellow new townie may do. The lack of reasoning is still bad because of its ambiguity.
  
  C: Randomly voting. Nothing's wrong with that, but both the timing of the vote and its vagueness make its intention very confusing, and confusion never benefits town. After all, that's why joke reasons are typically given with random votes: to clarify that they're random votes. Later, we find out that this is what happened, so I'll get there.

In a way, makesnosense and Harlii's reactions are polar opposites. Harlii is behaving in the most pro-town way possible by promoting critical discussion, while makesnosense acted very anti-town by making the meaning of its vote ambiguous.

#19

House defends his vote by saying that, yes, it was random. This is pretty much the only defense House could have given to my comment, which is why the reaction test was not meant for him. This didn't surprise me at the time, so I didn't really get any new information out of this.

Really, the only non-random motivation for House to vote like that is that he wanted to apply pressure onto Smurphinator and perhaps encourage them to post. I don't think that's good play, which is why I doubt it actually was an intentional move to vote for House to put Smurphinator at L-3 (the horror).

#20 and 21

Here's the end of RVS, folks. House votes for makesnosense for its ambiguous vote and attempt at creating/joining a bandwagon with little reason.

#22

I try to explain what my reaction test was without giving away it's a reaction test. If I didn't ask if there was a motivation (good or bad) behind House's vote, would anyone? My guess is no. House's initial vote generated a discussion which then got us out of RVS before the end of page 1. I also try to emphasize again that my intention is not to make everyone doubt House, because the vote absolutely could be random.

Under the rule, I attempt the same reaction test again. This time, I pretty much

know

how to answer both questions as I'm asking them. To me at the time, makesnosense's vote was to agree with me, while House didn't like that makesnosense is trying to start a bandwagon off of just my comment. I realize that neither is 100% true, but that's how I saw it yesterday.

#23 and 24

House justifies his vote, which pretty much told me what I already knew. I did like #24 because it was very pro-town. Not providing reasons with reads or votes takes away from potential discussion and overall hurts the town.

#25

I, yet again, try to remind everyone that I don't suspect House because of his vote and just wanted to know if there was motivation behind it. I also tell the town that I'm sticking to my current vote. A bit tangential to this spoiler-wall.

I should tell the town, too, that I kept reminding everyone that I don't suspect House because suspecting him would turn the reaction test to a line of questioning, which it wasn't intended to be. Again, the test was for the 7 other players, not House or me. I might suspect House later today, who knows.

#26

Harlii reacts to the test again in a positive manner. He also shows he had pretty much the same train of thought as I did at the moment. His question to House makes him appear to trust House, which is fine.

#27

Pretty much the same thing as #24. I believe House when he said that he meant to randomvote, I just wasn't sure if anyone knew

why

I had asked about his vote before because it seemed unclear. My last post made it sound like any randomvote is suspicious, which, if true, would undermine RVS entirely.

#28 and #29

House explains why the vote is anti-town. I think this is more IC'ing than it is gameplay discussion, but the point he makes here is ultimately important: Discussion helps town. And, at the time, House was the one doing the most talking.

#30 and #31 are more about MNS than House

#32

Here's where I start being confused. From the above posts, I don't think House has done a single scummy action. He defends himself after being voted for, yes, but that's the natural response when someone asks why you're doing something. Also, the OMGUS from House had reasons beyond that of a normal OMGUS, specifically that House felt MNS's towns were anti-town.

Without a reason given, my reaction test is undermined because I don't know if it comes from my comment or if RC noticed something I didn't pick up on.

#33 is skipped because it's redundant (How pro-town of House to ask for reasoning! Discussion is great!), 34 and 35 don't really have info to work with

#36

House gives his reads thus far. He points out that it's possible for RC and MNS to simply be townies acting in an anti-town fashion, which I think is important to acknowledge. His tone does suggest it's unlikely.

#37

RC does echo the idea that anti-town =/= scum, but since House's tone implied that that probably wasn't the case, RC sees it as scummy.

#38 to #41 are about RC, not House

#42

This and, to an extent, #37 make me want to study House's IC meta better.

#43

I can't tell if this means RC dropped their suspicion of House. I assume it doesn't, personally, but from RC's POV I think foedufafa would seem scummier at the moment by jumping onto a bandwagon that quickly.

#44 to #46

I really think there's something personal between House and RC lmao. House is right in that you shouldn't vote if you don't have a reason, but I can see why RC disliked his tone and got offended.

#47 to #51

This is more about the fight between RC and House, so we'll ignore it.

#52

DoctorPepper votes for House, with his reason being a bit vague. It reads as though he thought House was pushing a RC bandwagon, but from the above posts in commentary, it seems to me that House was just pointing out that RC and MNS did some anti-town actions, not that they were scummy.

#53

House points out that he wasn't even on the wagon vs. RC, and this is clear because House doesn't even scumread RC.

#54 to 56 was about the fight between RC and House

#57

MNS returns and, while he says that his vote was random, he now has a case against House. My question is, why is it wrong to defend yourself if someone actually has their FOS on you? Was House being

too

defensive or jumpy? His arguments against RC and DP were valid in my opinion, as House's suspicion towards RC was short lived (and definitely not part of a bandwagon) and he was just criticizing anti-town behavior.

#58 and 59 is about RC.

#60 to #62

House wasn't really pushing on RC in my opinion. House did suggest that RC and MNS could be scum because of their anti-town behavior, but the fact that House didn't even vote for RC tells me that he was only stating the possibility, not intending to move onto a vote.

DoctorPepper also had the impression that House voted for RC, which clarifies some things. DP still has not moved his vote though.

#63

House confirms that he wasn't even pushing suspicion onto RC, or at least not intending to.

It seems that the potential arguments versus House are mostly based on:

• A: Me questioning whether House's first vote was random or intentional.
  B: He reacted to MNS voting him without a reason, which looks jumpy and overly defensive.
  C: House's reasoning for voting MNS was that he performed an anti-town action, which isn't a valid reason to vote because even town members do anti-town things.
  D: House pushed for a bandwagon onto RC by disagreeing with their actions.

A is part of a reaction test that tested everyone

but

House. B I disagree with, I felt he was criticizing his anti-town behavior, not defending himself. C is a fairly reasonable argument, but I think the vote on MNS is well-placed. D is just wrong.

Now, you might not have asked for it, but here it is: The post 11/12 explanation! This might end up being redundant with what I wrote in the spoiler but just roll with me here.

Hello, sorry for not being here most of yesterday. I had a funeral to attend, and then I couldn't get to my computer room last night due to some guests we have. I've adjusted my schedule, so I should be more active. I would however like to announce a V/LA for Saturday and Sunday. I have an airsoft game all Saturday, and on Sunday I'm not sure where our guests will want to go. With that out of the way, here's my current read on the situation.

VOTE: Smurphinator

For not being Smurftastic.

I know it's still early in RVS, but does something about this vote seem deliberate to anyone else?

This really rubs me the wrong way. It seems like Giga's trying to cast suspicion on House merely for being the second to vote on Smurf. Yet that's entirely what one would expect given the random nature of the RVS stage.

My "weird buddying with House" in constantly saying that I was not suspecting him was to make sure this isn't how my post is viewed. But then why would I want to ask the question I posed in post 11/12? Simple!

I wanted to see how quickly people agree or disagree with the post, and whether or not they think it's questioning or suspicion. I was genuinely curious as to whether or not it was a random vote, but ultimately I don't think it would have mattered. I do like that it helped us get out of RVS fast and onto actual discussion (ending at post #20 is pretty good, right?), but I think it ultimately backfired on me and makes me much more confusing to understand.

[]------------horizontal rule------------[]

This post was pretty long and honestly I'm worried that it's confusing. If anyone needs clarification on anything I wrote I'll be happy to explain it again. I spent way too long with this post and usually when I take a long time writing something it just becomes unnecessarily long and difficult to follow.

[Racer64]

foedufafa [1]

This is more intuition than anything solid. Take it with a grain of salt.

But why? foe gave us very solid reasons to townread him!

I'm not very trusting is all. We were on the same line of thought as far as RC, but I'm having trouble reading through his posts. I'm new to the forum style of mafia, and with my difficulty reading him, I need more information before I can come to a personal conclusion (or as close to one as you can get in mafia)

Smurphinator [-1]

Hasn't posted, which in my eyes, is inherently scummy. Once Smurf posts, or gets replaced (which I'd rather not be the case) I'll reevaluate this read.

This is bad. Activity is not indicative of alignment. Don't think like this.

Hence why I only put Smurf at [-1]. On my scale that's still neutral, and once they post, that will change. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is also a soft indicator of a mafia member. Mafia needs to deprive town of as much info as possible. The less one posts, the less their posts are scrutinized (up to a point). In conclusion, the [-1] is just a placeholder, nothing more.

DoctorPepper [0]

Post 52: I'd like to know what you're reasoning for Giga being towny is. I'm not accusing you, I just want to know in case you're seeing something I'm not.

THAT is your question to DoctorPepper? You're not at all curious about why he felt the need to defend a more experienced player? RadiantCowbells is one of the last people in this thread that needs a white knight.

Also, why are you afraid of being seen as accusing Giga? That's what MS is all about.

I'll answer your second question first. That was actually directed at DP, not Giga.
Now then, I've not really been paying mind to the SE's in relation to the Newbies. I'll keep an eye on that from here on out. That said, DP is an SE allegedly defending an SE, which is a bit different (as I see you've already realized). I don't find the fact that he hasn't redacted his current vote scummy, since from my perusal of the site it's neutral behavior. My read on him is either defending RC, or evaluating the logic behind what he presumed to be an initial push against RC. Hence, a neutral read for me that, once again, will be adjusted as he provides more posts.

If DP were Scum!Racer's partner, S!Racer would hardly be foolish enough to put him as a true neutral read. I understand you're putting pressure on me to defend my statements. Which leads me to:

House [-1]

I agree with some of the suspicion, but I read him as not quite as suspicious.

How wonderfully vague of you. What do you agree with. Why do you not read me as not quite suspicious?

Because you've been putting pressure on multiple people for their statements. You're drawing information from where you can find it, which is very townish from my understanding. Despite this, I couldn't ignore the accusations that were thrown at you, though I question their validity. As I said, I'm not very trusting of anyone, especially not in mafia.

With all this in mind,
UNVOTE: foedufafa
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Such a convenient/safe move.

I was attempting to put extra pressure on RC. For reasons I gave in my last post, that was a false step on my part. Was it suspicious? That's your call, not mine.

I think there was some misunderstanding with the read scale I have. -1, 0, and 1 are all neutral to different degrees. I should have made that clear.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

Hence why I only put Smurf at [-1]. On my scale that's still neutral, and once they post, that will change. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is also a soft indicator of a mafia member. Mafia needs to deprive town of as much info as possible. The less one posts, the less their posts are scrutinized (up to a point). In conclusion, the [-1] is just a placeholder, nothing more.

The popular scumtell with lurking is usually opportunistic lurking, or lurking for the sake of avoiding the need to defend yourself. I think Smurf just hasn't logged into MafiaScum the past day or two.

I think tomorrow I'm going to post reads of my own. I spent way too much time today on that one post and I need to catch up for the last real day of school, haha.

[Racer64]

The popular scumtell with lurking is usually opportunistic lurking, or lurking for the sake of avoiding the need to defend yourself. I think Smurf just hasn't logged into MafiaScum the past day or two.

I see. I'll update my personal notes and move Smurf to [0]. Hope your studying goes well!

[House]

That said, DP is an SE allegedly defending an SE, which is a bit different (as I see you've already realized).

That doesn't make his white knighting better. It makes it worse.

[House]

Despite this, I couldn't ignore the accusations that were thrown at you, though I question their validity.

Why not? It's your job to ignore accusations you feel are invalid. There will be many of them, you can't give them all weight.

Additionally, invalid accusations can turn into lynch wagons if people are too afraid to speak out against them. This happens. Frequently.

Take a stand. Make a decision, and stand behind it.

Your reads look designed to be able to be flipped at a moment's notice, which does nothing to make me want to townread you.

Scum has to maintain flexibility in their reads because they never know when they'll need to change who they will need to justify voting next.

Town doesn't have that fear.

[House]

Hence why I only put Smurf at [-1]. On my scale that's still neutral, and once they post, that will change. However (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is also a soft indicator of a mafia member. Mafia needs to deprive town of as much info as possible. The less one posts, the less their posts are scrutinized (up to a point). In conclusion, the [-1] is just a placeholder, nothing more.

The popular scumtell with lurking is usually opportunistic lurking, or lurking for the sake of avoiding the need to defend yourself. I think Smurf just hasn't logged into MafiaScum the past day or two.

I think tomorrow I'm going to post reads of my own. I spent way too much time today on that one post and I need to catch up for the last real day of school, haha.

Excellent post.

The term I've generally used is active lurking. That's where the player posts, but doesn't really say anything... not to be confused with fluff posting, which is basically spamming.

The difference between active lurking and fluff posting is frequency. Active lurkers post just enough to keep of the radar, without actually contributing to the game. Fluff posters flood a thread with garbage, which breeds apathy.

[Harlii]

In the interests of finally making a non-rvs vote:
UNVOTE: Smurphinator
VOTE: makesnosense

I was initially going to vote for DoctorPepper (who I also find suspicious, stemming majorly from their defence of RC, which has been discussed by others), but upon going back and reading some isos I find that makesnosense has provided fairly minimal information. If we want to talk about reads/votes that are easily flippable, the vote on House with no explanation ("To generate more discussion", which is...counterintuitive in my opinion) is a pretty big example, especially given it's context. The non-rvs version of the same vote is explained as "defensiveness", which seems weird to me because I would also be defensive about an apparently non-rvs vote on me with no explanation.

What I've recently come to realize is that votes in an ongoing voting system are meant not to lynch but to put pressure on individuals to provide more information, and it feels like makesnosense is the one I want the most additional information from at the moment.

[House]

Reads List:

gigabyteTroubadour
foedufafa

Harlii
RadiantCowbells

Smurphinator

makesnosense

DoctorPepper
Racer64

[innocentvillager]

Role PM's have been sent. I will unlock the thread when 8/9 have confirmed, or if this timer runs out (expired on 2016-06-17 11:50:32) (whichever happens first).

Replacing Smurphinator if he does not confirm via role PM by this deadline.

	VOTECOUNT 1.1
Player	Being voted by (in chronological order)	Number of Votes
1. makesnosense	gigabyteTroubadour, Harlii	2
2. Harlii
3. gigabyteTroubadour
4. Racer64	House	1
5. foedufafa	RadiantCowbells	1
6. Smurphinator
7. RadiantCowbells
8. DoctorPepper
9. House	makesnosense, DoctorPepper	2

Not voting: Racer64, foedufafa, Smurphinator

RadiantCowbells is V/LA until June 21st.

Please let me know if there are errors in the VC, or have any other questions in general. Don't forget to bold such requests to me.

[foedufafa]

VOTE: makesnosense

I really need more to work with from this guy. This is where I'm placing my vote until I see some more activity from them then I'll reevaluate.

[DoctorPepper]

I will get to this game soon, but I will say foe is suspicious af for latching on to any wagon picking up steam and getting off them once the heat is off

[foedufafa]

I posted a comment about makesnosense before Harlii cast their vote and, again, you keep referring to me being the only person voting for RC as a wagon. I'm glad my vote has that much power in your eyes that it counts as multiple.

I've also only "gotten off" of one vote. Your false narratives are suspicious to me.

[foedufafa]

I also didn't get off that vote because the heat was off, I got off it because the person isn't around until the 21st. Again, your accusations aren't based in reality.

[innocentvillager]

Looking for a Smurphinator replacement

[gigabyteTroubadour]

I will get to this game soon, but I will say foe is suspicious af for latching on to any wagon picking up steam and getting off them once the heat is off

Reading Foe's ISO, this is pretty much untrue. Foedufafa, as RC is on V/LA, didn't get

off

the wagon, he simply changed his vote from a vote to a FOS. That seems pretty normal, especially considering that half of the active players have also applied a pressure vote onto makesnosense at some point (me, House, Harlii, and Foe. 4/7!). I don't see Foe as opportunistic at all, especially because getting to L-2 is a pretty important goal in terms of discussion.

By the by, that does mean that

makes no sense is at L-2

. Please don't vote for him any more, because otherwise he could be quick-hammered!

------------horizontal rule------------

Will post my reads after school, I only have 10 minutes of class left and that's not enough time to write.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

*it, not he for makesnosense

i'm on my phone and i really prefer using my computer to make longer posts, so no reads yet

[makesnosense]

Sorry not wagon. Push. I dislike the push.

Also makesnosense, im voting House because of his push on RC

You do realize that he was voting me, not RC?

-------
It's interesting to see RC being white knighted by both DP and House. This makes me think she is town, and one or both white-knighter is scum. Right now, I'm leaning more towards DP since House did have at least a reason for his read.

Unvote. Vote: Dr.Pepper

Makesnosense is still voting for him as well, I believe, unless I missed something. He initially voted with no reasoning. To be fair, it was still RVS but they later said they didn't provide an explanation in order to create more discussion. I kind of see what they claim they were trying to do, it doesn't make NO sense but it doesn't make much sense. I'd prefer to see more of where their head is at. They then reaffirmed their vote citing House's defensiveness but I'm not sure what they mean by that. His butting heads with RC seems consistent with his behavior in this game so far, going back to post 28: "My vote is not a desire to see him lynched, yet. It is my intention to make such play known as anti-town and unacceptable. I want to see reasons for votes and reads, be they scumreads or townreads."

MNS I'd like to hear more from you about where this game is at.

@foe and giga:
Explanation for "Defensiveness":
* On this post, House immediately OMGUS me without even trying to understand why I'm voting him (which was really just RVS). That's what I would have expected from an IC-town. Thus, I believe he meant to play that to his alignment by threatening me to back off with a vote.
* His interaction with RC on Post 42 and Post 44 also shows high level of defensiveness over a mere suspicion on him.

In a way, makesnosense and Harlii's reactions are polar opposites. Harlii is behaving in the most pro-town way possible by promoting critical discussion, while makesnosense acted very anti-town by making the meaning of its vote ambiguous.

I'd like to believe that my naked vote has promoted more discussion than an ordinary non-interesting reasoning that anyone whether scum or town can possibly contrive. But then again, that's a matter of personal opinion.

Fixed -IV

[makesnosense]

@Mod: I would appreciate it if you could fix my quote tag fail

Fixed. Don't forget to bold such requests to me, in case I don't see it

[Racer64]

* His interaction with RC on Post 42 and Post 44 also shows high level of defensiveness over a mere suspicion on him.

I saw 44 as more attacking than defensiveness. RC wouldn't give an explanation for his vote, and House called him out on it. Besides, RC had already moved to voting for Foe in post 43.

What do you see that makes you think otherwise?

---

Also, is this the sort of line you're looking for, Giga? ^