Mini 1800 - Game Over

[qubixes]

@Karnos: We still have more than two days now.

[karnos]

@Karnos: We still have more than two days now.

I'm aware. I have the most time to read and post during the week, at work. After work today I probably won't be on the forums as often as I would like, so I am showing intent now.

But since you moved your vote, that makes it easier for me, I can just push him back to L-1 and leave the hammering to someone else.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Note: don't take this to mean I am not willing to consider another lynch. I will still read the boards over the weekend, and I'm perfectly willing to move my vote if necessary.

[Masquerade]

@masquerade: At some point you said that there might be something suspicious in my ISO, but you would check to make sure. What were you looking for?

I don't remember, can you link the post where I said that?

I do NOT want to figure out who to lynch in the last hour. If Johny was a PR he should have claimed already so either he is scum or a vt, so lets lynch.
Here is my intent to hammer.
Does anyone have anything they *need* to say before nightfall?
I'm done and I'm getting bored with this. Either pick a goddamn wagon that has votes or stay on Johnny. THIS IS NOT HELPING US LNCH SCUM>

[Masquerade]

Actually, no. No. I'm not going to risk another unvote and end up with apathy and no flip.

VOTE: Johnny

[Masquerade]

Found it myself btw. Will get back to you on that tomorrow, am going to reread most players after we see Johnny flip.

I'm also going to read Qubixes, I think I saw something but I need to make sure if it fits. I'll let you know either way.

Thing is, I never got to rereading Qubixes because my attention was caught elsewhere (Karnos' claim, Johnny, Mathblade..)

[karnos]

Wow, I wasn't expecting that so quickly.

Lets hope for a scum flip!

Anyway, if anyone wants to shoot out an investigation suggestions I will take them into consideration, though I have a person in mind already.

[qubixes]

Wow... Not expecting the hammer either. Why should Johnny have claimed? He is only at L-1 since very recently. Also, wingback was trying to see whether a Dierfire lynch would be possible, so we'd have had at least 2 votes.

@Karnos: I think you should decide for yourself. That way we can also hold you accountable for your choice, instead of you just saying someone else suggested it.

Not too hopeful for a scum flip, given how the day ended. If he does flip scum, I'll have to re-evaluate for sure.

[MechaGoomba]

I understand the Dierfire suspicion but don't support it. From my read, he's got a very analytical playstyle; such players tend not to do well on day 1.

I'm pretty convinced MathBlade is town. Their behavior w/ regards to karnos, specifically the way their reads center on him even after disengaging, would be extremely difficult for scum to fake.

I'd be willing to go for a Kappy lynch eventually, but not right now. See what he says, to what degree he elaborates under questioning; if we lynch him while he's away, it's a shot in the dark.

I have no idea why Math is even voting Magna. Something about "not reading", "misrepresenting", both of which are code for "not agreeing with me"/"not understanding my reasoning". Not going there without actual arguments.

Johnny's content primarily consists of the one giant post he made full of statements that are 100% correct and 100% unoriginal, as well as a bunch of poking at perceived inconsistencies and bits of karnos discussion. I do see why some call it a lurker lynch, but I disagree. The reason I'm voting him is because he loves saying things that are right but useless and avoids concrete opinions if at all possible. Low posts I can take as being busy; little content to each post I can take as playstyle. But if so large a proportion of the content you make is bland, useless fence-sitting, that's just scummy.\

PE:

Actually, no. No. I'm not going to risk another unvote and end up with apathy and no flip.
VOTE: Johnny

Not a great hammer, but an understandable one ... if it is a hammer. The vote counter can do really strange stuff.

If anyone wants to shoot out an investigation suggestions I will take them into consideration.

You can't play Neapolitan like a normal cop because you can't get a solid guilty result. You can, however, get a solid innocent, so you should be aiming for people where innocents matter: strong, active players who will be able to make use of being conftown, but aren't already universal townreads; if there isn't some suspicion on them, conftowning is much less valuable. Still worth it, but not as valuable. One player that fits that mold is Dierfire; there are others, but he's who I'd pick.

Wining the mafia about your target isn't much use; the only normal role that would care about it would be a rolestopper. However, I'd recommend you not say who plan on targeting until the next day, so that you can choose whether or not to out them if you get "Not VT".

[qubixes]

Actually, no. No. I'm not going to risk another unvote and end up with apathy and no flip.

VOTE: Johnny

Why do you think it would have ended up with apathy and no flip? I think almost everyone has stated willingness to lynch Johnny, so why do you think a lynch wasn't possible at a later time?

[MathBlade]

....I swear this was dumb Johnny has clearly demonstrated they are on a different timezone. That hammer is all kinds of bad.

Still getting ready for work and the amount of walls posted was staggering.

[MathBlade]

Mecha. I mean not reading. Both him and Masq have asked the same question and repeated the same talking points I have already addressed. For example the vengeful crumb question after I answered it. Masq kept pushing I ignored things after indirect and direct answer once and still won't provide reads. Then Karnos does L-1 and then Masq immediately hammers.

This shit. This is what I am talking about about Champion of the wagon. Masq just pulled a perfect example of it. I plan on poking the shit out of Masquerade tomorrow because with how that hammer went down from my POV I don't think Johnny flips scum.

[MathBlade]

Dierfire is a bad pick. Definitely could be scum to me if one of Magna/Masq isn't.

And for posterity purposes I know who I would pick but I think the endeavor is fruitless as mentioned before.

Symbolic vote change Masq

<< If day was still going I would vote here but don't want to mess with automated vote counter.

[MathBlade]

Running late now reading backwards will catch up later. Left off before Masq's posts.

[Wingback]

@Mathblade, why would a hypothetical scum-Masquerade quickhammer Johnny if all the other lynch options (Dierfire, Mathblade) are town? You say Dierfire is a bad pick and I'm assuming you think you are town.

Masquerade's hammer makes the most sense if he's scum with one of Mathblade or Dierfire, and Johnny is town. I'm guessing he saw the case on Dierfire and qubixes agreeing and panicked at the possibility of a last minute switch. I don't buy for a second that there would be "apathy and no flip" when there are more than two days left to deadline. Also think if Masquerade was town, he'd at least give Johnny time to claim after hammer intent was stated. There was a four minute gap between his intent and hammer.

I need to thoroughly re-read Saru as well. In my notes I had him as town for his angry/genuine response to Persivul and his breakdown of Kappy's logic in Post 237. But his later posting has been a cause for concern.

[MathBlade]

@Mathblade, why would a hypothetical scum-Masquerade quickhammer Johnny if all the other lynch options (Dierfire, Mathblade) are town? You say Dierfire is a bad pick and I'm assuming you think you are town.

Masquerade's hammer makes the most sense if he's scum with one of Mathblade or Dierfire, and Johnny is town. I'm guessing he saw the case on Dierfire and qubixes agreeing and panicked at the possibility of a last minute switch. I don't buy for a second that there would be "apathy and no flip" when there are more than two days left to deadline. Also think if Masquerade was town, he'd at least give Johnny time to claim after hammer intent was stated. There was a four minute gap between his intent and hammer.

I need to thoroughly re-read Saru as well. In my notes I had him as town for his angry/genuine response to Persivul and his breakdown of Kappy's logic in Post 237. But his later posting has been a cause for concern.

I am of the opinion if Karnos is a Neopolitan which I doubt they have to townfirm here. That is how we caged in the role. Forcing them to do NKs after confirming town. If they hit scummy targets and then claim PR then we are back in the same dilemma as today. Do we trust Karnos or the the person they claim is a PR? If you are going to rely on this "site meta" bullshit at this point it has to be followed through. Otherwise the cage is simply not effective. We make scum townfirm.

I don't quite get how you get it makes sense for it to me be and Masquerade or Masq and Dierfire. Care to explain?

[qubixes]

I think wingback means that the most likely counter-wagons to Johnny's were your wagon and Dierfire's wagon. If Masq is scum panick hammering, he is most likely to be panicking because there is a competing scum wagon that he wants to prevent from taking off.

[MechaGoomba]

they have to townfirm [...] If they hit scummy targets and then claim PR then we are back in the same dilemma as today.

If a cop claimed, would you tell them they have to get a guilty result in order to be able to prove they're not lying?
I do believe karnos should be aiming for townfirms, but saying a "Not VT" result means he's lying is just stupid.


Masq's hammer was, as stated, all kinds of bad, and I wouldn't bat an eye if they got lynched over it. However, I personally see no reason to waste time repeating that over and over.
Tomorrow, we go over associatives, what we may have gained from rereading during the night, and then, if Masq doesn't have an incredibly good reason, we force them to claim.

Hmm. Actually, if Masq is VT, they may want to claim now so karnos could consider clearing them? That might be a horrible idea though; I'm insufficiently paranoid to properly evaluate it right now.

[Saru]

@Saru: So you don't like the Johnny wagon and think I'm scummy. Yet, you say you don't care if someone hammers?

I was talking about post-flip associations in 380. But you already know Johnny will flip town, maybe? As I said, lazily hopping on another wagon only makes sense (is AI) if I'm scum hopping onto a town wagon. You're also aware that if you apply the same logic to yourself, you're also scum?

And yes, I didn't feel very strong about anyone really. Even on Johnny I didn't feel strong (because of gut read). So what? Finding more than one scum on Day 1 is hard, period.

Actually

UNVOTE: Johnny
VOTE: Saru

I don't really see the point of pushing you too much to be honest. Because it feels like a wasted effort when you're town read by almost everyone (afaik), and it's also too close to the deadline.

LMFAO, this post is all kinds of wrong.

First off, this is quite a

strong

reaction to me just calling a single vote of yours scummy. I didn't even say you were some confscum or something. If you're really going to vote me due to me finding a single thing of you scummy and pushing on it

slightly

, that just shows how your overreacting. Too funny.

Also, nice vote of me and then unvote. Oh, so dramatic. The theatrics of it all. I love it.

And as to your point about not caring if someone hammers: good job showing you don't care to read. But no matter, I'll explain in another way, if I really have to. I don't like the Johnny wagon because I felt it was too fast and convenient. I make this point in my previous post. Your vote on him is scummy because your reason for voting him is absolute garbage. Other people on the Johnny wagon had fine reasons, not the best, but well enough to understand why they might do it. Your vote comes after you conveniently hop off the Karnos wagon when it disbanded, keeping in mind you were its champion. I'm calling total bullshit on you not feeling "strong" on Karnos as you were pretty much 100% sure he was scum no matter what, even after the claim, arguing for a scum neapolitan. Anyone reading your ISO from the Karnos vote to the Karnos unvote can easily see how you have extremely strong feelings for a scum!Karnos. Don't try to play the "gut" card here. It's too obvious.

And no, applying that logic to myself doesn't make me scum. My vote on Johnny is not me "lazily" hopping on as I point out that I think he's town even when I vote him. That's a policy lynch. No two ways about it. Scum don't vote someone right after they profess they think that person is town and just hope no one notices or something. Reason for a vote is important. And seeing as Johnny has been hammered by Masquerade who points out that he doesn't want to have to look for a lynch in the last hour of the game, I think it's safe to say that my point about frustration over the twice extended deadline has its merit. Persivul is another good example of frustration in 866.

[qubixes]

@Mecha: I think Masq VT claiming is not a good idea. If Karnos fake claimed he is basically given the easiest pass ever. It would only help if they're both town. (Which I don't believe.)

[qubixes]

@Saru: The gut read I was talking about was a "town gut read" on Johnny, which is why I was conflicted about his slot. Given the way the lynch went down in the end, I'm a little less conflicted right now.

Obviously I'm not just having a gut read on Karnos, that's ridiculous.

Policy lynches are pretty lazy imo. And if you don't like the wagon, why not do something about it. Because basically ever since the Persivul argument, you have been sitting back. You voted Kappy for reasons already stated before, sure. But that was 10 days before the original deadline, so this frustration about the deadline feels rather weak, unless you think deadlines should be 5 days? You have just been popping in when someone asks you something or it is about you, which makes perfect sense if you're scum and feeling you're being universally town read.

And don't make it appear like it came out of totally nowhere. My questions to MoI made it obviously clear that I had some reservations at least towards your slot. But at least you got a good laugh, right?

[Saru]

@Saru: The gut read I was talking about was a "town gut read" on Johnny, which is why I was conflicted about his slot. Given the way the lynch went down in the end, I'm a little less conflicted right now.

Obviously I'm not just having a gut read on Karnos, that's ridiculous.

Policy lynches are pretty lazy imo. And if you don't like the wagon, why not do something about it. Because basically ever since the Persivul argument, you have been sitting back. You voted Kappy for reasons already stated before, sure. But that was 10 days before the original deadline, so this frustration about the deadline feels rather weak, unless you think deadlines should be 5 days? You have just been popping in when someone asks you something or it is about you, which makes perfect sense if you're scum and feeling you're being universally town read.

And don't make it appear like it came out of totally nowhere. My questions to MoI made it obviously clear that I had some reservations at least towards your slot. But at least you got a good laugh, right?

The bolded part is literally all answered in 895. I guess I was right that you didn't read. Thanks for proving that.

And you said you didn't feel

very strong

about anyone. Are you seriously going to tell me you didn't feel strong on Karnos? Because "anyone" implies everyone, obviously.

And yes, I understand you have reservations about my slot. That's fine. My point is that your vote and unvote of me just serves as theatrics, more or less. Like, "hey guys look I'm

clearly

frustrated at Saru for his posting and I want to make sure everyone knows!"

With that being said, where do I stand in your reads? Am I getting scummier for you by the minute or something? I'm curious.

[qubixes]

Except you were already sitting back before that point? Your response was rather lackluster. Sounds like a poor excuse to be sitting back, especially considering you were already sitting back when the Mecha/Math/Magna thing happened.

You're splitting hairs here. I think it's obvious to anyone that reads even half my posts that I feel strongly about Karnos being scum. "anyone" -> "anyone but Karnos". Whatever. You think that's scummy? How?

I was planning to keep my vote on you, but realized it wasn't going to do anything. I left it in there, yes. Currently I feel the most likely scum team is Karnos/Saru/Dierfire, in that order. So yes, I was trying to show how I read the game at that point. Was it slightly theatrical? Sure, why not. But I don't think it's scummy.

You're not improving on my list, if that's what you're asking. It's kind of pointless at this point though. I would like to see the flip and have a thorough read through your ISO, but that can wait for Tomorrow. And no, you're not dead stone scum to me, especially with no flips.

[Masquerade]

Ok I read some posts after my hammer before I realized how many and big they became. I have never seen such activity after a hammer.
We had several extensions, this dayphase has gone on longer than usually is and should be the case. We do not need to use all the time provided but the way things were going I saw the following scenario happen: Last hour of the phase. Johnny still at L-1 (or maybe L-2) Suddenly everybody stops wanting to lynch Johnny and we have to rush another wagon and hope it will be hammered.
I wasn't going to wait for that to happen.
There was no progress being made as far as I could tell. Lynchtargets are being suggested but no new wagon was building up AT ALL. I admit, I panicked. But not because I was afraid because a hypothetical buddy is in the line of fire. If I wanted a misslynch I would have hammered Johnny when I had the first chance (assuming me scum and him town, that is)
I'm vt. I was 100% sure Mathblade is scum and I figured that if people ended up lynching me over Math it wouldn't be a horrible loss. That's the thing I didn't want to say earlier. Karnos can decide for himself who he wants to investigate. I don't object to it being me but he shouldn't announce it. If I really am town I will be able to show you that tomorrow through talking, if you then still want to lynch me, so be it. I'll be there to defend myself and scumhunt.

[Saru]

Except you were already sitting back before that point? Your response was rather lackluster. Sounds like a poor excuse to be sitting back, especially considering you were already sitting back when the Mecha/Math/Magna thing happened.

What exactly was I sitting back on anyways? I've commented on the major wagons and what I felt about them with my own reasoning and then placing my vote or unvote. If I was sitting back as scum who was happy to be universally town read, I would never make posts like this: 383 438 where I leave myself open to being criticized. Scum who are universally town read don't try to drawn attention to themselves. Is this really what you think I was doing? Just seems like your trying to come up for an excuse because you can't find anything else on me. The reach is real. Your whole read on me seems to be that I was "sitting back." If you feel I'm scummy for that, then the majority of the players in the game would have had to be scummy for you seeing as we had a whole ton of replacements that came about because people were inactive at some point or another. I'd rather "sit back" and see how things unfold and then make my own decisions rather than lazily hop onto a wagon like you.

You're splitting hairs here. I think it's obvious to anyone that reads even half my posts that I feel strongly about Karnos being scum. "anyone" -> "anyone but Karnos". Whatever. You think that's scummy? How?

No, just feels like a lapse in thought. You say "anyone but Karnos" first and then "anyone" which sounded like Karnos didn't seem all that scummy to you anymore. Not sure how you expected me to see that another way. I'm sure you would do the same if I did that, seeing as you love to point out petty things such as "sitting back."

I was planning to keep my vote on you, but realized it wasn't going to do anything. I left it in there, yes. Currently I feel the most likely scum team is Karnos/Saru/Dierfire, in that order. So yes, I was trying to show how I read the game at that point. Was it slightly theatrical? Sure, why not. But I don't think it's scummy.

This makes me town read you because you stick to your thought/voting pattern as indicated in your ISO. Good job.

You're not improving on my list, if that's what you're asking. It's kind of pointless at this point though. I would like to see the flip and have a thorough read through your ISO, but that can wait for Tomorrow. And no, you're not dead stone scum to me, especially with no flips.

Have fun.

Responses in

bold.

Currently town read you(pretty much have the entire time) but just feel you're misguided as fuck.

[qubixes]

I did town read you for 438 actually. The things before and after are what makes me scum read you. Don't understand why you're trying to needle me while having a town read. Anyway, this is going nowhere for now, so I'll leave it for tomorrow.