Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

MoI's case on RC is so bad that I think RC could be town. It's mainly based on "you said this thing that doesn't make sense" or "you said this thing I don't agree with", which don't mean at all that RC is scum. Usually it's easy to avoid being called scum for bad arguments as scum, but not if you don't expect those arguments...

That is, I think MoI's case on RC is bad, and I think RC maybe could have avoided doing the things MoI is calling him scum for if he was scum.

I'll have to think about this more.

[RedCoyote]

lmao, lane you are the best

[lane0168]

I really love the idea. Just needs a little tweaking for next time. Anyways. I can't decide if I'm wrong about the mm right now. I believe he should've clarified when people try to clear is play as newbie badness if he doesn't think he's bad and has experience, and never went and finished a newbie game. And the adding those reasons upon reasons really bugs me. Like you said, the truth is what his answer should've been. Not a string of answers.

But is he town who just keeps blurring stuff out and can't help but incriminate himself? Idk.

Really need moi to tell me in what world I go first and my partner doesn't call. And his case on me. He seems like hes just making shit up to not vote the mm. Basically doing anything he can to not vote the mm

[Persivul]

Yes, or just make every hand 48 hours. If you can't act, then your hand is folded.

Yeah that would work.

[Persivul]

Possible avatars for Lane:

[Persivul]

Call

[lane0168]

Lol

[Persivul]

When lane plays poker, a pair of queens beats a straight...

[Something_Smart]

hahahahahaha

Need to reread MM, but let it be known that I'm bad at reading new players, whether or not they're experienced elsewhere.

[lane0168]

When lane plays poker, a pair of queens beats a straight...

AHHHHAHAHA!! Nice

[FA_Q2]

^ shit - wrong thread. Can you take car of that MOD?

~Done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok magna, why don't you tell me how scum would make a money dumping plan? Make it fit what has happened, but make it make sense as me being scum.

It’s already been assessed – one scum would go all-in and another who due to Pre-Game talk the scum knew had a strong hand would call.

It makes sense with you as scum as your hand was so startlingly bad there was no reason for you to go all-in as you did. And MM’s hand was certainly a winner given the Poker format so he makes a logical partner. Why you are going on about your partner not calling in 327 I haven’t a clue – MM makes logical sense as a partner under this scenario.

Bam. Pretty damn easy to do given we already did it early on.

And what are you townreading the mm. Cause some people town read me? Your case, as far as I thought, was based on us being partners.

I'm not sure I follow your scum reading of me now.

I said that if I was going to lynch between the two of you to determine if you are possible scum partners I would vote you first. But given I think MM is Town for the general quality of the wagon on him I’m open the possibility that you are just bad Town.

but I should forewarn you that MoI likes to scumread me in virtually every game we play together regardless of our individual alignments.

So this is the sort of statement that bears following up on – we haven’t played a game together in over 4 years. So I dug through my completed game archives to see games we hand in common and how you were treated in them.

The Switchboard

( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=22959 ) – Both of us were Town.

Read through the ISOs of us (should not take long, RC died N1) but it is a strike against this premise. We actually both voted to lynch AngryPigeon and I pushed IAI as my other focus. Never voted Red.

Micro 57

– Stratego Mafia (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=23654) – RC Town, MoI Mafia

Another strike against this theory – we spent all of Day 1 basically joined at the hips on wagons on players and I never once pushed any suspicion against Red. We killed him N1.

Return to Boring Town

( http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=22676 ) – RC Town, MoI Mafia

This game really can’t be relevant as RedCoyote replaced in when I was at L-1 and hammered me shortly after. So no interactions to mine.

Cyclical Experiments 2 Mafia

(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=19396 ) – MoI Town, RC ???

This game was eaten in the great Tiger attack of 2011. I know I was Town but don’t remember RC’s alignment. This is the only game where I do actively push on RC and I was Town.

So I went through three full pages of my Topics archive to find these four examples, one of which isn’t valid and two of which directly contradict your statement. In fact the only game I did push on you I was Town. So I don't see how, even with the limited number of games, you think this statement is correct.

Why would you lie about something that was so easy for me to check and post information about?

[lane0168]

I only ask because why wouldn't you vote the mm? He's got the money. Voting me does the town no good.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I want to see someone raise just to make Pers's blood pressure sky-rocket ...

[Persivul]

It's already up from the fact that we'll be waiting at least two more freaking days for this hand to resolve.

[qubixes]

@Magna:

In my opinion these are the most important points of the MM case. Why do you think my hop was suspect?

[Plan about scum giving each other money.] I called

to

break that [..]

Here he basically tells us that he tried to do something good for town by calling, through breaking scum's plan. The word "to" is the important bit, if he said "I called and I broke that" for example, it would be a different thing. His response wasn't very convincing, giving all sorts of reasons why he called, and saying that I/we are reading too much into it. It just seems to me he tried to look like a white knight fighting for the good of town.

The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”.

That was the plan in a shellnut, though you put it to parody levels. But wanting to look as Town as possible is not limited to scum.

Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

In the first quote he tells people to keep in mind that he might be playing bad, because it is only his second game etc. So, he is pre-emptively defending himself with the newbie/being bad card. Then in the second quote he says that he wouldn't be so bad and transparent as scum. I think he's using both sides of the argument here. Below I have added the response to my poking:

Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.

@MM: I can't really follow the logic. [Mafia scum Pro's ---- you ------ Mafia scum newbies ------ everyone else] Like that from good to bad?

[qubixes]

@Persivul: I already folded

[Persivul]

@Persivul: I already folded

Cool, that means if fire calls or folds, the hand is over.

[Alchemist21]

♠ ♡ DAY 1 VOTECOUNT ♢ ♣

MM(4):

lane, Red Coyote, BBT, Qubixes

Red Coyote(2):

Infinity, Magna

Persivul(2):

MM, FA

FA_Q2:

Persivul

Not Voting(2):

Fire Assassin, Something Smart

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

The current pot is $250

The amount to call is $100

Still in the hand: MagnaOfIllusion, Persivul, Fire Assassin

Fire Assassin must act.

Spoiler: Betting History

Bet orders:
Ante
Persivul bets 50
Bbt folds
Mm folds
Qubixes folds
Infinity folds
Something smart folds
Magnaofillusion raises to 100
FA_Q2 folds
RC folds
Persivul calls

Day ends in (expired on 2016-07-05 12:30:00)

Fixed the errors of Lane and Qubixes still being in the hand.

[RedCoyote]

So this is the sort of statement that bears following up on – we haven’t played a game together in over 4 years.

First off, I don't care if it's 4 years or 40. The only reason to even throw that comment in there is to attempt some poor logical fallacy implying that if a game happened X number of days/weeks/months/years ago it should be invalidated.

Second, if you insist on getting technical, how about you don't just decide to omit the games that don't suit your agenda?

In The Switchboard, indeed, both of us were town and this game is an anomaly. This is the only game we've been on the same side and worked together cohesively. This one I'll grant you I did not recall you being in. This was a fun game and one of my favorites, actually. Thanks for the memories.
In Stratego Mafia, this one I actually did recall as being the exception to the rule. As you noted, we were on opposite sides, however.

In Return to Boring Town, we have a game that doesn't really apply. I replaced into what was effectively a confirmed slot.

In Cyclic Experimentation Set x01, you suspected and criticized me while you were alive, though you never voted me (we killed you N1 in this game because I distinctly remember you being a strong town voice that was targeting me and another scum teammate).
In DEFCON 3.0, we were both town, you suspected and criticized me while I was alive, voting/lynching me very early on in the game.
In Cyclic Experimentation Set x02, we were both town in this iteration, and you suspected and criticized me for a good chunk of this game, voting me toward the middle of the game before the Tigers got it.
In Abarat, we were both town, and you suspected me strongly throughout, voting me toward the middle of the game.

So, I'll grant you it's not quite as skewed as I originally presented it (I recall it being 1-1-4 rather than 2-1-4), but, still, the majority of our games consisted of you coming after me, 3 of the 4 times in error. This game appears to follow that pattern if you are town.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, it seems you have the wrong number next to The MM and you still have Kappy in the "current bets" area tag.

Fixed. Thanks for letting me know!

[RedCoyote]

Also, Pers, the MS PC police are going to get you if you keep making jokes like that, lmao.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I looked at RC's recent posts again, and some of them were really towny. The frustration about s_s not seeing the explanation for the persivul reads looks very town to me, and so does his frustration over MoI tunneling him. RC could definitely still be scum, but I'm starting to get the feeling that the way he's playing is more playstyle than anything.

I wanna see what s_s has to say because I really liked his thoughts so far and this game is starting to confuse me cause I have way too many townreads.

Still think faq2 is scum though.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: faq2

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here he basically tells us that he tried to do something good for town by calling, through breaking scum's plan. The word "to" is the important bit, if he said "I called and I broke that" for example, it would be a different thing. His response wasn't very convincing, giving all sorts of reasons why he called, and saying that I/we are reading too much into it. It just seems to me he tried to look like a white knight fighting for the good of town.

This is in my opinion you stretching to classify something as scummy. The whole notion of “to” being a huge difference maker between scum and Town motivation is pretty poorly thought out given that written English can convey the same notion in many different ways. I’d classify the whole point as nitpicking looking for reasons as opposed to actually looking for scum intent.

Since the last bit of your post is basically a LAMIST attack – what do you think of Red Coyote’s similar “I don’t make mistakes so you should see me as Town” posting?

Admitting to try and look town because of pressure. Admitting it doesn't really make it better in my opinion.

Also very weak as Town also try to look Town also. You are taking something that is at worst a Null statement and only prescribing scum intent to it. Note that I commented on his initial post and this is his response which I thought was pretty reasonable Town.

In the first quote he tells people to keep in mind that he might be playing bad, because it is only his second game etc. So, he is pre-emptively defending himself with the newbie/being bad card. Then in the second quote he says that he wouldn't be so bad and transparent as scum. I think he's using both sides of the argument here. Below I have added the response to my poking:

Bad and scummy are not synonymous. Frankly I can point to at least one other player in this thread whose shtick is to play purposefully bad for whatever reason. That doesn’t mean they are always scum. Which is unfortunate because I want to lynch said player every time for being a worthless pile of junk. As to your “he’s wanting both sides of the coin” – meh … I don’t find that compelling. If he was trying for Newbie shield while simultaneously attacking someone else for trying to claim Newbie status I would find that suspect. This … not so much.

So if these are the tentpoles of your case I can’t say that I find it vote-worthy.

If you think MM is scum who is his partner? Is Lane also scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off, I don't care if it's 4 years or 40. The only reason to even throw that comment in there is to attempt some poor logical fallacy implying that if a game happened X number of days/weeks/months/years ago it should be invalidated.

No it isn’t. The fact is I remember you as being a player here on MS but before going through our common games I didn’t remember one bit about your play. Sorry if that hurts but the only thing memorable about you was your username.

But speaking of someone looking to put a negative spin on every post someone makes … see this post by Red Coyote as an example.

Second, if you insist on getting technical, how about you don't just decide to omit the games that don't suit your agenda?

Who isn’t reading now? I SPECIFICALLY mentioned I went through 3 pages of my topics looking for games we might have in common. Many of my games we didn’t but I needed to check them. This took me over one hour. Are you suggesting it isn’t reasonable for me to find 4 games after an hour of searching and conclude your point wasn’t valid?

And the only person with an agenda on this point is you – specifically trying to sell that I would attack you regardless which absolutely isn’t true.

So, I'll grant you it's not quite as skewed as I originally presented it (I recall it being 1-1-4 rather than 2-1-4), but, still, the majority of our games consisted of you coming after me, 3 of the 4 times in error. This game appears to follow that pattern if you are town.

See now you are moving the goalposts. Your initial point was as follows –

If enough people are sadistic enough to request that I do, then I suppose we'll carry on the charade, but I should forewarn you that MoI likes to scumread me in virtually every game

we play together regardless of our individual alignments

.

The bolded is important as it doesn reflect reality. Using the list of you gave we have the following situation.

MoI Scum – RC Town – two games, one of which isn’t relevant and one in which not only did I not attack you in the least we more or less worked together to mislynch Town.

MoI Town – RC Scum – one game where I properly attacked you as scum.

MoI Town – RC Town – four games. Three of which I attacked you and one of which I didn’t.

So your statement (which I feel was yet another attempt to discredit my feelings on your slot) was that I attack you regardless of alignment. Small sample size of scum games shows me never attacking you. Town games I correctly read you 2 of 5 times and incorrectly read you 3 of 5 times. That’s hardly the poor situation you are presenting.

Frankly the situation you brought up shows that I’m more likely to attack you as Town.