Micro 622: Queen Mafia GAME OVER

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VOTE: Postie

please tell me who your scumbuddy is

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Fire Assassin, are you a hydra?

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I meant an alt.

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I find it interesting that you are more worried about it than I am, IPS.

This doesn't seem like a town post from Ari. This seems like he is trying to start putting pressure on someone because he has pressure. He acted very relaxed to pressure on him but that's not alignment indicative for him.

If you believe that to be the case, what do you make of this?

Vote him

Because you Omgus'd him?
Or because he is displaying a newbie characteristic?

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Just answer my question please. You called Aristo out for trying to start pressure on someone when he was pretty much defending the slot in his very next post.

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Perhaps. Answer my question please.

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Very well, I agree.

I don't think #32 makes much sense given the context of #30.

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I find it interesting that you are more worried about it than I am, IPS.

So Aristo, could you explain why you thought this was interesting?

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None at the moment. Never played with her before though.

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Iprobablysuck, what's your read on Elyse?

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Actually let me rephrase that. What do you think about her 'sheeping' and putting Aristo at L-1? I honestly can't tell if you find it suspicious.

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Could you elaborate?

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Actually I'll admit the post is rather interesting.

I really didn't like Elyse posts cause they seemed lazy excuses for the posts, but given this reaction by Bullet. I am now thinking its more town, which is by associations, which I hate.

Could you explain this Fire? I'm not entirely I understand what you're saying.

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I assume you're referring to my post, but I saw no reason to do it seeing as it was on the same page.

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Fire could you respond to my question in 71 please?

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Actually I'll admit the post is rather interesting.

I really didn't like Elyse posts cause they seemed lazy excuses for the posts, but given this reaction by Bullet. I am now thinking its more town, which is by associations, which I hate.

Could you explain this Fire? I'm not entirely I understand what you're saying.

It was a crappy association read and now I am ignoring it.

But what associations? It sounded to me like you thought Elyse was suddenly town because Bullet pushed on her. I assumed that meant you thought that Bullet was scum, but that doesn't really line up your follow up posts.

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Or well you called him "meh", but you didn't push or vote on him after, which I thought was rather odd since you seemed to imply he was scum (and that Elyse was town for thar reason), unless I misunderstood your post in which case I'd like you to explain exactly what you meant.

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I take it back Fire's probably town.

I'm curious, why?

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I see.

I got to admit I was a bit surprised to see you town read him after his recent interactions with BNL. You thought they were a team earlier because of the interactions between them on page 3, so I take it you like their interactions on this page? That's interesting, I actually thought it felt very weird.

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You thought they were a team earlier because of the interactions between them on page 3, so I take it you like their interactions on this page?

No, it's nothing to do with how they've interacted.

You misunderstand, I'm not asking if your read is based on that, I'm asking you if you liked their recent interactions since you called them out for it earlier.

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Hm. I'd really like to hear from Aristo at this point.

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Aristo thoughts on Postie and BNL?

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VOTE: Aristophanes

This doesn't feel like your town play.

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VOTE: Aristophanes

This doesn't feel like your town play.

How do you figure?

Honestly it's a mostly a character read. I'm not getting any townvibes from you, which I usually do when your town. I will admit it is possible some of it has to do with you going V/LA so yeah.

In any case, why isn't your vote on Postie?

VOTE: Aristophanes

This doesn't feel like your town play.

Does it feel like his scumplay? Because I agree but I see little reason to suppose this is scum!Aristo as opposed to just different!Aristo.

Perhaps, not sure. However this does not feel like his town game so I see no reason not to apply pressure.
I'm honestly not sure what to think of this post. You agree that this does not seem like his townplay, so where exactly are you going with this?

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I'm honestly not sure what to think of this post. You agree that this does not seem like his townplay, so where exactly are you going with this?

I agree but I see little reason to suppose this is scum!Aristo as opposed to just different!Aristo.

I still don't get the point. It sounds like you're trying to discourage me from voting on Aristo for no apparent reason. I honestly don't think your post makes much sense, so I ask you gain, what was the point of it?

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To elaborate, it feels like you're defending Aristo. You see little reason to suppose this is scum Aristo as opposed to just different Aristo, but for some reason it sounds like you believe that makes him more town, correct? Please explain why.
If that is not the case, then I don't get the point of your post.

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Honestly it's a mostly a character read. I'm not getting any townvibes from you, which I usually do when your town. I will admit it is possible some of it has to do with you going V/LA so yeah.

In any case, why isn't your vote on Postie?

I didn't vote Postie because I obviously need a better footing here, as I'm missing too many things (as Elyse noted). I need to reevaluate things before proceeding.

ISO Postie then please, and tell me if it made you change your read on her and if so, why.

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Duppin can be back to town.

Back to? Does that mean you had a townread on me earlier? If so, could you explain why it changed please.

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You see little reason to suppose this is scum Aristo as opposed to just different Aristo, but for some reason it sounds like you believe that makes him more town, correct?

Incorrect.

Hm alright I see, but what was the point of your post then?

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Although I am gut townreading Aristo, ftr.

Interesting, considering you agreed that this wasn't his towngame.

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No, are you?

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vote Postie

I'm going to ask you for the third time (or fourth?), what was the purpose of #244?

I fail to see the town motivation behind it. Basically what you said was that you agreed this wasn't his town game but just him playing differently, which honestly just implies that he could be either alignment. That is correct.
Seeing as you agree it isn't his town game, don't you think it is a good idea to pressure him to get a better read? I thought so, apparently you did not because otherwise I do not see why'd you post that. I felt like you were trying to discourage me from voting on him but on the otherhand you weren't willing to commit to a townread. Seemed a bit like fencesitting.

So what I wanted to know was why you did not agree with my vote on him. The most logical answer was that it was because you were townreading him, so I asked you if you thought him playing differently was towny. Your response was no, but in the very same post you claimed you had a gut town read on him, which I thought was a bit weird but it could possibly explain why your post, although I still don't like how you worded it.

But if that is the case, please explain why you thought he was town at the time? Because the posts you brought up in #279 all came after #244, so obviously they couldn't have been part of your initial gut read on him.

Anyway, I still find Aristo suspicious, but at the moment I think you are more likely to be scum. You could very well be scum just fishing for townc redit (if Aristo is a mislynch). I think this would explain the weird progression of your read. (playing differently > gut town read > hard defend). In this world it would seem like you tried to keep your options open at first (#244 feels a bit like fencesitting) but then when questioned you commit to a townread on him.
It's also possible it was just you posting just to get some content in.

So yeah Postie, plx stop dodging and answer my question. Why did you feel the need to question my vote on Aristo? If it was because you were townreading him, why were you being so cryptic and can you explain your town read? (as in why you were townreading him at this point)

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Duppin can be back to town.

Back to? Does that mean you had a townread on me earlier? If so, could you explain why it changed please.

54
You went back to null because you started being lurky. You are now town again because I liked your weird push on Aristo for not voting Postie.

It seems like I missed that post, my bad.

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And I'm going to give you my answer for a second (or third?) time: I agree this doesn't feel like Aristo's townplay, but it also doesn't feel like his scumplay, so my 244 was me pointing out the flaw in your logic if you were scumreading him for it.

I'm sorry what? That's honestly a pretty bad argument. Basically you're saying my logic is flawed if I'm scumreading Aristo for not playing his towngame? Just because it doesn't feel like his usual scumplay does not mean I can't find it suspicious.

I assumed your vote was a serious vote, not a pressure vote. It would have helped if you'd have said this earlier. Your vote wasn't accompanied by any attempts to engage Aristo, which is what I'd have expected from someone trying to put pressure on him, and so it came across more like an opportunistic jump onto his wagon and/or vote parking. Which is why I called you out on it.

I kind of understand what you're saying, but when I voted I clearly stated "this does not feel like your town game", so I was hoping for him to engage me and ask why and then take it from there, which happened.

As for it being an opportunistic vote I called him out in one of my very first posts, where I said I disliked his play. I also asked him several questions before voting on him, so I'm not sure why you find my vote to be more opportunistic compared to some of the other voters. Please note that this is not really a read I agree with, but from your pov I just think it seems a bit strange.

And to be honest I don't really agree that I should say that I'm just doing this for pressure.

If not having a read on a player is fencesitting then I guess I was fencesitting.

But your post gave the impression you thought he was town and later on you claimed you had a gut town on him.

I didn't. I disagreed with your vote on him because I didn't like the reasoning behind it.

Why? Him not playing his town game = most logical conclusion is he is not town. Is he playing his scum game? Not sure, can't tell yet. I decide to pressure him because I believe that will help me read him. If he is town, I expect I'll get to see it doing this, if not then I think he is most likely scum.

I sincerely can not understand how you can dislike the reasoning. It sounds like you are reaching the conclusion that him not playing his town game or scum game (which I can't tell yet) makes him more likely to be town and that's the logic I don't get.

Why?

Because nothing he has done so far has made me change my read. The only thing that makes him less suspicious is that I think it is unlikely you two are together and I find you more suspicious.

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Btw, I'm more sure on GuiltyLion for scum than TellTaleHeart, and fairly sure BNL and duppin aren't partners.

Your possible pairings, from most to least likely, are...
GL/TTH
GL/duppin
TTH/duppin
TTH/BNL
GL/BNL

I'd like to hear your read on all the players listed here, including me. I do know you've already said a couple of things, but I would really like just one post with your actual reads.

Like I find it difficult to follow your read on GL, because you're basically calling him scum for scumreading you. I mean at the moment the majority of the game seems to be scumreading you, so why is it a scumtell for him?

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I do think it is possible you are town, but I don't think your play has been towny at all and I simply can't understand the motivation behind what you did with Aristo. I'll gladly admit that I'm perhaps reading a bit too much into it. That does not really change the fact that I find your play rather suspicious. I also feel like you're OMGUS'ing quite a bit, but I could be wrong so I'd really like to hear your reads.

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Wait what, are you really suggesting me and Postie could be scumbuddies?

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So you think I start a train on my scumbuddy for defending the player I was pushing? (You)

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So you think I start a train on my scumbuddy for defending the player I was pushing? (You)

I don't think you gave yourself much choice really.

Had you not reacted as you did, questioning her town lean on me, it would have been weird. From there it escalated into a way where you couldn't have backed down without suspicion being on you should she flip. I would say that your walls were a saving grace, as it would be a bit much for a bus, but neither of your arguments against each other are very good, as if they weren't meant to actually create a wagon.

It would have made sense if you thought I was bussing or attempting to distance myself from her by doing this and then banking on the lynch not going through yes, but saying I backed myself into a corner where I had to vote on her makes no sense. I think you should go back to her post that started it all (#244). If you truly still believe that to be the case, then I'd like you to point out exactly when it happened, especially given the context (as I was questioning her).

What I get from this is honestly just that you're not really paying attention to the game if this is what you believe. If she is scum then it is possible I am bussing her (but let's be honest, still fairly unlikely), but I honestly think the reason you provided is rather absurd.

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Postie could you explain your scumreads?

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I strongly oppose any assertion that anyone not playing to their typical towngame is likely scum because of it. Playstyles can vary from game to game.

Does that mean he should gain immunity for playing differently? Why does it make me more likely to be scum if I pushed on this?

While you claim you weren't townreading him initially, how exactly am I to understand what you're saying now? You keep claiming that anyone not playing their typical towngame isn't necessarily scum which is true, but they aren't necessarily town either. I honestly still don't like your reaction.

But we can probably talk about this for ages. Right now I'd just like to hear your scumreads.

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I'd mainly like to hear your read on me and TTH.

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Ooh I hate this post. And every time duppin says "to be honest" or "honestly" I wince.

Well to be honest I honestly don't care.

Why do you hate the post though?

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Hm, that's a fair read I think.

It is however not what's happening. In no way is that me trying to wash my hands, like how would that even work out? If Postie is town and we mislynch her, would I be opening tomorrow like "so yeah I mentioned that it is possible for her to be town, so I'm definitely not scum"? I get your point, but I fail to see how it would play out.

I actually thought you disliked the post because you thought me and Postie were scumbuddies and it was me trying to work myself out of it but meh.

There was no hidden agenda though. I think she is very suspicious but my main reason for scumreading her comes one single posts. (or at least that is what started it). What made me question my read was simply because of what she said in #435

This seems to be at the heart of our disagreement and I'm not sure there's much we can do about it other than agree to disagree.

Not because it is alignment indicative in any form, but it just made me consider it a possibility that perhaps this has more to do with us simply not agreeing than it has to do with her play being scummy. I obviously still think it is scummy though.

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(and also now your 461 being mildly towny),

How is that post towny? What's up with the weak town reads this game by the way. (not aimed at you, several players have been giving out weird townreads)

but I can ISO TTH to try and pinpoint why I'm feeling that way if you like.

I'd like to hear it yes.

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Oh and,

You keep claiming that anyone not playing their typical towngame isn't necessarily scum which is true, but they aren't necessarily town either.

So what don't you understand? I've already explained that I formed a townread on Ari

independantly

of this (see readswall), not because of it.

Because I don't understand your need to come out the way you did you weren't townreading him. I know you've explained yourself several times but I obviously still don't agree with your logic.
But I don't feel like this discussion is really getting anywhere at the moment.

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I agree that Aristo hammer was terrible. There was a vote count on the very same page he hammered (with Wingback voting a couple of posts before him).

I mean he did say that "he will finish reading up soon", but if he hadn't caught up with the same then his vote is atrocious. Like why even vote then when you have absolutely no idea if someone else has voted on her or if something else has happened that would make you change your mind. What was the point of that vote?

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Postie I promise I'll take reconsider GL, but I actually feel pretty good about his slot.

I'm not sure I understand your strong townread on Fire though.

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SK isn't possible in this setup. (it's confirmed 7:2)

Anyway, pretty sure TTH is town. GL is confirmed town. Thought Elyse was fairly town yesterday as well, which leaves me with Wingback and BNL.
Was leaning town on IPS, Wingback hasn't really said anything to change my mind while I'm completely null on BNL.

I'm pretty sure we just lynch Wingback and BNL in any order and the game is over. I don't think Elyse and TTH are with Aristo.

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I'm ascetic vig lol

Since there's no way to convince you that I'm not SK (since if I were SK, I would play this exact way), why don't you tell me who you think Aristo's partner is first. Trivially it can't be me. I know there's no serial killer, so if we lynch the other scum today we win.

This normal setup is confirmed to have faction numbers 7:2.

You are confirmed

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GL do you think I am town?

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why would you ask conftown that question?

I'm asking you because I believe the game is auto. If you think I'm likely scum, then you don't need to include me in the auto. I'm pretty sure Elyse and TTH aren't ever with Aristo.

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I mean sure I can explain why I think the idea of me ever being with Aristo is rather silly, I just don't really think it matters if we can just auto this.

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Well yes, it is a possibility. I just don't think the way TTH went from a rvs vote on Aristo to a serious vote came from a scum trying to distance herself from her partner.

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Weren't you townreading TTH yesterday though?

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Also, I'm townreading BnL though I'm unsure if the reason I'm doing it is really justified. :S

Right off the bat, Wingback's SK obsession is pretty awful.

Mind explaining why you're townreading him?

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Also, thoughts from everyone on what I've posted so far would be appreciated.

Well while it is obviously a possibility I think it is unlikely and there is no way Elyse is getting lynched today.

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There isn't.

I was going to slow dance this, but I can't keep it in my pants. I'm a one-shot neapolitan.

I crumbed it in my first post and in the course of doing so, learned that there is a "neapolitan pizza."

I can confirm that Elyse is town. She's not getting lynched. Ever.

VOTE: Wingback

Why did you check her?

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Actually it doesn't matter, I don't really care. Pretty sure the game ends with Wingback/BNL. Elyse is now confirmed town and I'm pretty confident TTH is town as well.

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BNL, GL already stated he was going to shoot you so I honestly don't get the point of what you're trying to do, but I'm not bulletproof no.

Intend to hammer.

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I honestly didn't really care who we lynch first to be honest. As I said earlier this day I found your d1 play more towny than his, but ultimately it doesn't really matter. Elyse's slot is confirmed town, so is GL and I believe TTH is town as well, so I think the game ends after we kill you and BNL.

But now that I've been thinking about it, I actually want to lynch BNL first. First of all I find him talking about BP really strange (especially considering GL had already revealed who he was going to kill). If BNL is BP then he is could get to final three and it would probably be me, TTH and him. TTH has already expressed to have a townread on BNL for unknown reasons, so if TTH truly believes BNL is more townie than me I see absolutely no reason to risk this going into final three.

I don't think there is any way for Wingback to win final three and I do not believe he is BP either, so he'd probably die to GL anyway.

VOTE: BNL

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As in the winning play for BNL would be to:

Lynch Wingback today, kill GL tonight (and considering he might be BP he will survive GL's attack). Force a sleep tomorrow (considering we are going to be 4 alive), kill Elyse's slot and then convince TTH (who is the only one who claimed to have a townread on BNL) to vote for me.

While I don't think it's possible for Wingback to ever win this as scum, as he would have to convince me TTH was scum in last of three assuming he would even be able to make it that far. He would probably die to GL tonight.

So I'd rather lynch BNL.

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The reason I want to lynch BNL first is because of the whole bulletproof thing. I really didn't like it and can't help but feel he has a plan (as in he won't die to vigi). It's still going to be very difficult for him to actual win the game if he is scum, but it is the best shot he has so he has to push the whole "I'd rather get vigged" idea.

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Ultimately the order probably doesn't matter though.

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Well this sucks.

I thought TTH's play as really townish. I'll probably need to go over her ISO again, but my read is obviously going to be conf bias since I know she is the last mafia now.

I imagine it would be easier to convince you I am the town.

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I really thought TTH was town. Her vote on Aristo d1 didn't feel like bussing to me.

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In fact she was my top town before the claims.

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Because I was very confident in my read. Obviously I was wrong.

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I didn't believe Elyse and TTH could ever be with Aristo after day 1. I'm not sure what you want me to say to be honest, obviously I know now that I was wrong, but on the otherhand it seemed like pretty much everyone else agreed that the mafia was in Wingback/BNL. In fact Wingback and BNL were pretty much the only players that really considered other worlds.

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I never called your slot super town before the check on you. (Although I did state I had a slight town read on you). My main reason for townreading Elyse was that I couldn't see her be with Aristo considering she put him at L-1 two times d1 and the second time was actually when the Postie train was beginning to gain traction.

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Well,

VOTE: TTH

Anyway Serra, I'm honestly not entirely sure what to say at this point. I didn't expect the game to get here. I am however town. I'm not sure there is any point in me going over my play or trying to encourage you to check my ISO as you already did that yesterday.

But I also think TTH has played a towny game. To be fair I don't believe I have played with her before, so it's possible I'm just bad at reading her but I really thought she was town.

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And Serra while I assume you've checked yourself, I'd like you to consider the fact that TTH had zero interactions with Aristo while I had several and actively pushed on him. (And Aristo also called me out).

While I personally do not believe this makes TTH suspicious, I think it tells you that it is more unlikely for me to be with Aristo than it is for TTH. I mean sure it could've been bussing and whatever.

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Well I just realised something, TTH yesterday you claimed you were townreading BNL but you weren't sure the reason you were scumreading him was justified (#587) and in #633 you claimed the reason you were townreading him was because of his role.

BNL claimed in #588, which was after you claimed to have a townread on him. While I honestly don't really care about your answer, I'd still like to hear it. For what reason were you townreading him in 587 and why weren't unsure about it being justified?

I'm curious as to if you actually have a reason or if you're just going to pull a weird read out of nowhere now.

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were you*

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@duppin: how do you explain scum!TTH choosing to clear Elyse?

As in what I make of her outing her result? I don't think it had anything to do with her wanting to clear Elyse as much as it had to do with her wanting to claim her role. I just assume she checked your slot n1, since she knew you were a VT, which means she outed her check when claiming. Maybe she did it to make her claim seem more believable or maybe she was attempting to buddy her. Elyse had called me out a couple of times, so seeing as it was rather obvious from TTH's PoV that it would most likely end up with a last of three with her, Elyse and me, so perhaps she was just trying to get Elyse over to her side. I don't really know what her motivation was for doing so, I personally just think she outed n1 to make her claim seem more trustworthy but it is a possibility she was planning ahead.

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Sorry doing this from my phone.

I personally just think she outed her n1 check*.

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Lynch TTH 2016.

No but really, I am town and she is not. Since you like to talk about her meta, I encourage you to check my other games if you want to. I'm honestly not sure what to talk about at the moment. I don't think TTH play has been super suspicious even when I know she is scum. She did a decent job at distancing, although I obviously read a bit too much into her initial vote on Aristo. In hindsight, she did do a couple of questionable things. Like she tried to push a Aristo + Postie team (by questioning someone why it wasn't possible) when they were the two possible wagons. I never suggested they could be teammates, in fact I explicitly stated that the reason I moved my vote was because I found Postie more suspicious now because I failed to understand the motivation for her post and thought it was more likely to be scum pushing for town cred than two scum buddies. I actually never once really looked for possible scummates of Aristo d1. If I was scum, why wouldn't I have attempted to at least bring up possible scenarios in case Aristo ended up being lynched? Especially since it was unlikely he would survive for how long given the mislynch on Postie.

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The difference is that you're scum though.

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Anyway serra, what do you make of the FA kill?

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I asked him, not you.

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But I'm glad you approve!

[duppin]

Honestly it's a mostly a character read. I'm not getting any townvibes from you, which I usually do when your town. I will admit it is possible some of it has to do with you going V/LA so yeah.

What did this mean?

It sounds a bit dissonant after

VOTE: Aristophanes

This doesn't feel like your town play.

It means exactly what it said. I didn't think he was playing his town game, but I wasn't sure this was his scumgame either and my read might've been influenced by him simply being V/LA.
This was the main reason the whole Postie thing happened. (she agreed it wasn't his towngame, which was why I disliked her reaction).

[duppin]

So I haven't really been thinking about the implications of scum having day talk enough.

I actually feel like scum!TTH and aristo would have interacted more D1 with day talk available, as one of the things scum tend to keep an eye on is whether their interaction is believable.

duppin makes sure to have a series of questions at aristo, but I don't think any of them are very interesting. duppin also jumps onto postie at a pretty crucial moment.

What do you mean by a crucial moment? I started the train on Postie, so unless you think believe I calculated that Postie would jump in with a questionable defense of Aristo so I could get a wagon on her, I'm not sure why you believe this was me attempting to deflect. I mean for some reason pretty much everyone agreed with my Postie read, so do you believe I was just banking on someone screwing up when I was pushing on Aristo?

Also as for the FA kill, why would I kill FA? You claim I was universally townread, but Postie and Elyse both called me out. If I wanted to win this game, why would I not get rid of people not trusting me? I was in a pretty good position as you said so yourself, so why wouldn't I just get rid of the threats to me and go for a easy victory? As scum there is no way I would've taken Elyse, who didn't seem to trust me + TTH, my top town who cleared Elyse. How would I ever be able to win that? I know this is such an useless statement as it is all WIFOM, but I guarantee I would've killed Elyse n1 if I was scum.

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And we don't know if mafia has daychat, but if they do why would you expect TTH and Aristo to interact more? She had already gotten herself into a excellent position should Aristo flip scum due to her early push on him.

[duppin]

Look at the actual content instead. I can understand why you might think the timing looks a bit off, but I think this would be a terrible play as scum. Basically I would openly be deflecting off Aristo, who was at L-1 and pretty much the obvious lynch d1 to try and get another train going? I'd never play like that, I don't try to save my teammate by deflecting as scum. In fact the last game I played my vote was parked on my partner d1 even when she was at L-1 I believe. I bus if I consider my teammate to be doomed, which would definitely have been the case for Aristo there. If you think I'm scum, you should consider it a possibility that I was bussing Aristo which is fair, not that I tried to deflect when he was on L-1 and looking very likely to get lynched. You'd still be wrong though.

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Also I probably would have went for the "postie protecting scumbuddy" angle in that situation if I was scum, because it was very likely that Aristo was going to get lynched, but I didn't because I thought it was unlikely. TTH on the other hand did later d1 touch the possibility of them being scumbuddies.

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Well I missed that, doesn't change my point though.

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Wait no what, that post is about the 7:2 confirmation. How does that have anything to do with daytalk?

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Ah I see it now. I fail to understand why me missing it is infuriating. I only read the notes for the OP, not the rules.

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Because I only took notice of the notes. Like really, I never read the copy paste rules, the note part stood out because it was bolded though.

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You were wrong.

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Well played TTH, really thought you were town. (before lylo obviously)