Brexit

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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:51 pm

Post by Fenchurch »

In post 196, springlullaby wrote:Because you are satisfied with the EU government as it currently is as your own government? You can't understand at all understand why people may not think it is not legitimate as their own government?

If the UK had voted to stay what do you think would have been the next time you'd be given a chance to think about what form of governance you want for the EU?
Yes and no. I think it's completely legitimate and I want us to be a part of it.

I think about what form of government I'd like all the time, and I do what I can to influence it with my voice and my vote, but I'm not seeking to get rid of government entirely.

What are you issues with the EU, spring? And I don't mean issues with any of its prior actions, since those are determined by the elected representatives, but with its fundamental structure and process. What would you change and why?

Edited: to fill in a missing word and to clarify my meaning.
Last edited by Fenchurch on Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:02 am

Post by Tazaro »

In post 184, SleepyKrew wrote:if you don't understand the issue, sure you could see it that way
"Tazaro feels (that something is awkward because ...)" and "Tazaro understands ..." are different things. So the phrase is not SAW it that way (my understanding is that remaining in the European Union would have been a calmer decision), but FELT it that way.
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:05 am

Post by Elmo »

YouGov Survey Results
Sample Size: 1656 GB Adults
Fieldwork: 13th - 14th June 2016
(By voting intention)

MI5 is working with the UK government to try and stop Britain leaving the EU

RemainLeaveDon't know
Probably true162810
Probably false543327
Don't know303963

It is likely that the EU referendum will be rigged

RemainLeaveDon't know
Probably true114618
Probably false703032
Don't know192450

Hm.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:01 am

Post by springlullaby »

In post 200, Fenchurch wrote: What are you issues spring? I don't mean issues with any prior actions of the EU, but with it's fundamental structure and process. What would you change and why?
My understanding of public administration is not very deep but the first things that come to mind and which shock me are: parliament has no right of initiative, and are excluded from budgetary votes.

This seems to me almost purposefully designed to keep various political movements across Europe fractionated and irrelevant. I think giving parliement more power would means inciting more investment in the european elections, favorise the forging of alliances between political parties across europe, and involve people whose side lost the presidential elections.

Plus, from various tidbits I've read the Coreper, which elaborate directives for the Council to present, serves as a black room in which negotiations takes place with zero scrutiny. The problem is not that some initiative doesn't make the cut, but that no one actually know why these initiatives didn't make the cut since there is no public report.

Those are the things I'm aware of and have objection with.

As for an end goal to Europe, I think it has to become some sort of federal government long term.

Also it need a tv channel. And a cultural commission.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:08 am

Post by Fenchurch »

Okay. I definitely agree with some of those, and the others I don't know anything about right now.

Do you think those issues will be helped by by our leaving the EU?
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:13 am

Post by springlullaby »

^edited: it's Coreper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee ... sentatives) Not coporer.

I hope it may. IRC JK Rowling tweeted something about 'using an hammer to fix something that's broken'. That's pointedly ignoring the fact that the core problem is the only choice that's ever been given to you is 'hammer or nothing'. *


If any of the keener commentator are correct, the brexit vote was an anti-establishment vote. One thing you can put absolute faith in is that the establishment wants to stay the establishment. Since I think we can still trust that a minima of democracy is taking place during national elections, and since we've come to the point the people (brit people no less, the supposedly practicals ones) are ready to grab the hammer, said establishment will have to give some and actually propose something else than 'hammer or nothing' to grab those anti-establishment votes.

What makes me even more optimistic is that corporate interests has zero to gain with the dislocation of the EU, because to the least it will create market volatility worse than what's happening to the UK right now. They bet on docility and 'remains', they lost. I trust self-interest to see it's time make, some hypocritical I'm sure, concessions.

So you see, I think we are at this rare conjecture where corporate and the people's interests are actually converging.

(Very interesting points have been made about how this false choice perverts the public discourse. For examples. 1)The topic of Islam: there has always been a strong tradition of laicité here in France - I personally think Islam is as dumb as Christianity in term of ideology, if not worse for women and totally for keeping hijab out of public school. But because of 'racist' vs 'good people' mentality instilled by propaganda, nothing can be said about how to integrate Islam (not the muslim) in France anymore and now even when Michel Onfray - a philosopher whose been a hardcore anti-religion atheist (I'm actually softer since I'm only anti-clerical) since 30 years ago - get on tv and emits the tiniest amount of skepticism about Islam, he has to fend off 20 minutes of near libel, and brandishes the books he has written as shield to prove that he is 'kosher'. Now, what that translates into in the voting booth is that the choice you get is either 'muslim are all terrorists' or 'a hijab is the same thing as a bikini, you fucking racist' which just makes me facepalm. 2) The concept of 'useful vote' which is basically saying 'if you vote for a movement that actually represents you but is not either one of the big two, you are committing the cardinal sin of spreading the voting base, and making the far right win. I had another digression in mind but forgot.)
Last edited by springlullaby on Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:48 am

Post by Fenchurch »

springlullaby wrote:the brexit vote was an anti-establishment vote
Sadly I don't see it like that at all. I don't think the people here who voted for leave wanted a different EU, and certainly not in the specific ways you've mentioned. What it came down to, both in polls and for people I've spoken to, is that they 'don't want to be governed by anyone who's not British', and think we 'need to reduce or control immigration'.

The 'this is broken' angle was one that the leave campaign leaders sometimes pushed in order to help their agenda, but they didn't offer any specific problems, or solutions for how it could be improved - nor did they take any steps to improve it from within (e.g. UKIP MEPs claimed their salaries but basically never attended or voted. That's people who want to destroy something, not improve it).

If you wanted to see improvements in the way the French government was run, do you think the best way to go about that would be a referenda to the people asking "do you want to have a government - yes or no?" I would say it's much better to campaign for those changes.

Earlier you seemed surprised that I don't see the EU as at all less legitimate than any other government. Do you see it as such? If so, why - for the reasons you've just mentioned?
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:02 am

Post by Fenchurch »

Oh wait I've just understood the first part of what you were saying.

But it's never been 'hammer or nothing'. There have always been other ways to make those kinds of changes happen, namely: campaigning, raising awareness, creating pressure. A referendum like this is not the only way and nor is it a good way to bring about the kinds of changes you describe.
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:41 am

Post by Fromage »

In post 203, springlullaby wrote: parliament has no right of initiative, and are excluded from budgetary votes.
That the parliament cannot initiate laws is a real pity but at least it has to consent to the budget. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of ... pean_Union

I also think the European parliament should stop commuting every 4 weeks for 4 days to Strasbourg. I just don't see any benefits in it. And yes Strasbourg is a beautiful city. France should be compensated by getting other institutions like the ECJ.

I agree that the European parliament is very fragmented. Mostly the only practicable majority is a grand coaliton between the center-left (S&D) and the center right (EPP). Maybe it could help to introduce an European-wide threshold of anything between 1 and 3 percent. That way parties who are unable to find partners in other countries would be unable to enter parliament.

Springlullaby, I think you're overly conspicious of "corporate interests". Corporations aren't directed by one evil master. Hedge funds generally like uncertainity, while companies from the manufacturing industry don't. I also think policitics and economics often aren't a zero-sum game. If it's easier to lay off workers, companies might hire more in the first place and thereby reduce unemployment.


Regarding the question whether it becomes easier to change the union after Britain leaves it: I don't see any difference in the short term. But in the medium and long term, it might be easier to change the treaties. The Remain campaign had effectively promised to block any further integration. Without the UK it's a bit easier. However there also isn't much agreement in the rest of Europe how reforms should look like.
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:56 am

Post by springlullaby »

Below post @Frenchchurch 206

Eh. The point is there isn't, and has never been, any discourse about how to reform european institutions in the polical proposal of the bigger european party. In france what we get is "Right: it's the EU that let all the immigrant in. If we're elected, we'll shake the table in Brussel and show who's boss!" or "Left: it's EU that makes make your additional hours obligatory, not us. If we're elected, we'll shake the table in Brussel and show who's boss!"

The only time people have got a say about Europe is the ultimatum referenda: 'do you want us or not!'

I wouldn't be too worried about UKIP being too efficient. Seeing how Marine Le Pen has severed ties with his fascist father, so that the later can lead away the true racists of that electorate, it's clear she's moving in position to be a legit contender (not just a dark horse). And if you think someone with 30 points in polls haven't gotten some deals offered to her behind the scene, I'd think you are naive.
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Maybe brexit was a true surprise, but the siren song of becoming the establishment will take hold soon enough. And I don't think any of these people are Hitler caliber.

My question was whether you could see why people could reject the EU as a legitimate government. I can.

But to your question, no, the EU is not a legitimate government because the EU defines itself as an economic and political union. It never has undertaken the responsibility of being a government that holds itself responsable before its people.
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:15 pm

Post by SleepyKrew »

In post 201, Tazaro wrote:
In post 184, SleepyKrew wrote:if you don't understand the issue, sure you could see it that way
"Tazaro feels (that something is awkward because ...)" and "Tazaro understands ..." are different things. So the phrase is not SAW it that way (my understanding is that remaining in the European Union would have been a calmer decision), but FELT it that way.
if you don't understand the issue, sure you could feel that way
To be clear: quack
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:58 pm

Post by ActionDan »

I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:38 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

All together now...

Image
#greenshirtthursdays
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:39 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

All I ask is for, in either major party, just one person who is both a) competent and b) not actually evil

but there isn't one lol ffs why
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:39 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
#greenshirtthursdays
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:44 am

Post by mykonian »

ok, this is again where I'd need some "help" from you Brits. I thought you'd be pleased if it wasn't the opportunist Johnson leading you. Why he does it is his problem moreso (idk if it'd be political suicide to lead the country now for him).

And I'd probably need someones (nexus? :) ) opinion on Gove, don't know the guy at all.
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:15 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

I would be pleased that Boris Johnson will not be our next Prime Minister if any of the alternatives were preferable. The two most likely candidates are Theresa May (who consistently advocates for repealing and leaving various human-rights conventions and is in favour of even more snooping on everybody in the name of security, is generally just flat-out evil) and Michael Gove (a ludicrous, egomaniacal shitstain who carried out a vigorous campaign of fuckery upon an already weary education system, and is the No.1 preference of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre so fuck you very much to anyone who'd have him be
my
leader). It'd be like opting to be stabbed in the crotch rather than stabbed in the eye, but I'd have taken Johnson over either of those. The other candidates are no better, simply less likely to win.

There's also the general principle of the thing, which is that BORIS TORE THE ARSE OUT OF THIS COUNTRY IN A WAY THAT WAS DESIGNED PURELY TO MAKE HIM PRIME MINISTER and now he doesn't want to be the name attached to pulling the trigger on the worst foreign policy decision this country has ever made so basically IT WAS ALL FOR FUCKING NOTHING
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:17 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

FUCK HIM INTO A SUPERNOVA AAAAAAAARGGGHGHGGGH
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:28 am

Post by Nexus »

Gove hates teachers.
Trans rights are human rights.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:32 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 216, ChannelDelibird wrote:I would be pleased that Boris Johnson will not be our next Prime Minister if any of the alternatives were preferable. The two most likely candidates are Theresa May (who consistently advocates for repealing and leaving various human-rights conventions and is in favour of even more snooping on everybody in the name of security, is generally just flat-out evil) and Michael Gove (a ludicrous, egomaniacal shitstain who carried out a vigorous campaign of fuckery upon an already weary education system, and is the No.1 preference of Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre so fuck you very much to anyone who'd have him be
my
leader). It'd be like opting to be stabbed in the crotch rather than stabbed in the eye, but I'd have taken Johnson over either of those. The other candidates are no better, simply less likely to win.

There's also the general principle of the thing, which is that BORIS TORE THE ARSE OUT OF THIS COUNTRY IN A WAY THAT WAS DESIGNED PURELY TO MAKE HIM PRIME MINISTER and now he doesn't want to be the name attached to pulling the trigger on the worst foreign policy decision this country has ever made so basically IT WAS ALL FOR FUCKING NOTHING
I think it's funny that Cameron basically made it so that Boris Johnson would have to actually pull the trigger, and he's too scared to now.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:53 am

Post by hitogoroshi »

Yeah, the only thing worse than Boris Johnson being in charge of anything is Boris Johnson being so shamelessly transparent that Vote Leave was essentially a parliamentary Springtime For Hitler.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:52 am

Post by springlullaby »

In post 208, Fromage wrote:That the parliament cannot initiate laws is a real pity but at least it has to consent to the budget. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of ... pean_Union
Last time I heard something about it was it being a contentious point in the Lisbon Treaty. My belief stand corrected. Thought the EU really needs better RP and more of it.
I also think the European parliament should stop commuting every 4 weeks for 4 days to Strasbourg. I just don't see any benefits in it. And yes Strasbourg is a beautiful city. France should be compensated by getting other institutions like the ECJ.
I first read that as you wanting France to get compensated for the environmental pollution caused by the flocks of oily politicians descending upon Strasbourg every 4 weeks and marring the view.
I agree that the European parliament is very fragmented. Mostly the only practicable majority is a grand coaliton between the center-left (S&D) and the center right (EPP). Maybe it could help to introduce an European-wide threshold of anything between 1 and 3 percent. That way parties who are unable to find partners in other countries would be unable to enter parliament.

I'm for diversity in the political offer but what I really wish for a stronger sense of bond between the people across europe, a sense that the people who voted for the same party as you in another country are your bros .
Springlullaby, I think you're overly conspicious of "corporate interests". Corporations aren't directed by one evil master. Hedge funds generally like uncertainity, while companies from the manufacturing industry don't. I also think policitics and economics often aren't a zero-sum game. If it's easier to lay off workers, companies might hire more in the first place and thereby reduce unemployment.
I don't think corporations are evil, they are just what they are because of the law of the market, and I do think the EU's economy is failing because it isn't competitive enough (mostly on fiscal issues and flexibility for entrepreneurship for smaller companies imo) and some reforms are necessary, but that doesn't mean I think social protection isn't good for humankind.

If the EU doesn't serve as a strong medium between the people and corporate interests through the democratic process, what you will get as an end game globally is a competition of which kind of regime can exploit its people for cheapest without popular uprising. I want China to align to western standards of welfare, because its people deserve it too, not the opposite. So yes, corporations have to know they can be shown the door too.

Also finance is a great invention, but fuck triple A's rating, really. After 2008 you have to pause and rethink about what to keep from a system which basically draws on the same peculiar human fascination that make people bet on dogs racing each other. (BTW, the UK is really weird about animals.)
Regarding the question whether it becomes easier to change the union after Britain leaves it: I don't see any difference in the short term. But in the medium and long term, it might be easier to change the treaties. The Remain campaign had effectively promised to block any further integration. Without the UK it's a bit easier. However there also isn't much agreement in the rest of Europe how reforms should look like.
I think it's human that people wants to belong. I think the way to do integration is to formulate an european identity. Not tell people they are racist if they want to know where their home would be.
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:51 am

Post by Fromage »

In post 221, springlullaby wrote:I think it's human that people wants to belong. I think the way to do integration is to formulate an european identity. Not tell people they are racist if they want to know where their home would be.
I'm absolutely for a positive European identity. But how do you achieve that? Freedom of movement and Erasmus facilitiate the exchange of people and ideas. However the EU cannot dictate an identity.

The EU needs a common copyright law. There should be no more geoblocking in the EU. Licence agreements should define a language instead of a country. This might help to diminish the huge country bubbles which exist in the media today.

What are your proposals?
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:03 am

Post by ConManMick »

26 + 6 = 1
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:22 pm

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If these things are true, it makes me think Britain made the right decision.

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