Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[lane0168]

You said you wanted him to elaborate because it seemed generic

[Infinity 324]

lane, what do you think about s_s's response? It looks very towny to me, he doesn't try to overexplain himself, it looks like he really believes he didn't do anything scummy.

Plus all the stuff I quoted

[lane0168]

So it's a pretty shitty case. I just don't think s_s is genuine.

VOTE: fa_q2
Pedit: meh. Idk I'm not convinced by any means.

[lane0168]

Idk. My shit is shit. Part of me feels like he explained away my whole case easier than I can wipe my own ass lately.

And a part of me can't believe he's town. The original gut feeling was him and fire assassin throwing weak town reads on each other based on nothing

[Infinity 324]

s_s hasn't even given a read on fire.

fire has given a lot of weakly-reasoned reads on a lot of people.

[Infinity 324]

I'll keep your feeling in mind but I doubt s_s is scum.

[lane0168]

I just need a flip. And s_s said fire's "probably" comment was his town play. The fire I know says that crap no matter what

[FA_Q2]

Also, FA_Q2's non-response to me replacing in and voting him is telling. If he was honestly scumreading my predecessor, he'd have been even more convinced that I was scum for laying down a vote on him with zero reasoning apparently disappearing from the thread.

I already pushed your slot and gave the reasoning. Responding to nothing is pointless - you give no reason and then expect me to somehow respond to it. That is idiotic.

I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

[FA_Q2]

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

MM is null - I don't really see the scum case against him. Lane is a scum read - I have already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed.

[Fire Assassin]

@Fire: How good would you say you are at making your interactions with people look genuine as scum?

Overall I would say my scum game is just a bit better than the average? It has its ups and downs, and if I put in the effort I think I can do it pretty well, but I personally think my town game is much better because its hard to fake the genuine trying when you are town. If you put a lot of effort into the game as town people can see your motivations as town, but if you are scum its easier to look disingenuous and people do point it out.

I think my best ability as scum is making it look like I am not associated with anyone. I am very good at interacting with a scumbuddy so that it looks like I am either not aligned or that it is unlikely. Thats my opinion on that though.

[Fire Assassin]

Idk. My shit is shit. Part of me feels like he explained away my whole case easier than I can wipe my own ass lately.

And a part of me can't believe he's town. The original gut feeling was him and fire assassin throwing weak town reads on each other based on nothing

What bothers me most about Something_smart was his pointing out my town lean on him and saying "Fire is good at reading me", which really seemed to pander to my ego which bothers me. Because first off I dont' think I am much better at reading him than most players, maybe above average, but it seems weak. Also what does my read have to do with him actually being town?

I will have to re-analyze him later. I don't want him lynched today though.

[lane0168]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

[farside22]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

I think it's a good idea to let someone I town read win a pot.
Not sure why you disagree.

[farside22]

Spoiler:

MM, if you end up with your current cash at end of phase, what will you do with it, and why?

This is rather blatant role fishing. There is no town reason to tell scum what you are going to do with the money gained - it jsut tells them who they need to eliminate and/or what potential a particular slot may have.

@the mm, why are you letting people think you're a noobie, when you're not

I don't have a definite plan in head, so I'm open to suggestions. The Tracker shot is tempting me as the most obviously townie ability of choice, then again I don't know who I'd track. The Tracker shot has the advantage of being refunded if the target does nothing.

And you should not be discussing those plans anyway.

So Lane, you had garbage, and went all in when there wasn't much to win, but significant number of people left to call. Why? Again, I could get that if you pleaded ignorance about poker, but you then acted as if you're pretty knowledgeable about poker.

MM's call with a straight is of course reasonable. If the chip dumping theory has merit, it has to be based on lane's action alone. Although as noted lane claims poker knowledge but made a bad play, he does goof off at times, and its not like this is for real money.

No. If this was a gambit then MM being the scum that lane was ceding the money to makes sense. His actions are just as important to analyzing the hand flips as lane's actions are. I still do not buy lane's excuse for making such a colossal poker error while, at the same time, accusing others of not understanding poker. It just does not add up.

VOTE: lane

If I was scum and had day talk... And I planned a scum money dump, how do you think that would actually go? What would be the actual plan?

First of all I wouldn't do the plan if we didn't have better than a pair. And I would've been aware of jokers so a pair doesn't mean much. You can figure this out by saying I have a bad, meh, good, very good, probably unbeatable hand.

2 options to start. Either the one with the good hand goes all in, and the shit hand calls. Or the bad hand goes all in and the good hand calls.

To me, it makes sense for the good hand to go all in first. Then if town calls and there's a chance they have a better hand, the bad hand can save its money. That obviously didn't happen.

So now if the bad hand goes all in, and even if a town calls, the good hand would still go all in, because it would've been decided its a very good hand that probably wouldn't get beat.

Considering there was only one call, the only option here is me and mm.

That's no way we would do that plan unless we were very confident we wouldn't be throwing money away. Cause that'd be dumber than town going all in on a bluff.

So faq2, why aren't you voting the mm?

Because you are scummy for more than your bad play. Not only did you push a bad play but you followed that by defending yourself with character attacks (saying that others obviously do not know how to play poker) and have been almost exclusively defending without any real interest in finding scum. You also seem to be willing to throw suspicion anywhere that might not be you. That is not very townie.

You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?

Why vote persivul?

You said something was a blatant rolefish, sounds like you think he's scum.

And I explained why I was not voting for him. Why did you not bother to comment on that and even cut that out of your quote?

I feel like people this game are looking too much at people's actions and taking those at face value rather than trying to analyze the motivation behind them. If lane/mm were scum trying to get money for scum, they wouldn't do it so blatantly. Based on play alone, I think lane and mm (and persivul as well btw) look quite town.

FAQ2, I feel like you're just looking for things to comment on as opposed to actually trying to scumhunt. Some reads with reasons for each, please.

And I feel like you are trying to misrepresent me.

Lane is my strongest scum read and I have explained why. Persivul is next because of his reaction to me calling him out on role fishing. Rather than engage me on it he sidestepped it and went OMGUS with a bullshit reason. You want me to explain why he might be wrong yet he has not explained anything as to why my meta may be a tell. There is noting to really say as to why he is wrong on that bullshit OMGUS vote, it is based on activity which is almost never an accurate alignment tell for anyone. There are very few players that change activity with alignment.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

It is not necessity a scum tell in this case (as there are already some knowns about the abilities themselves). I do not like the response though.

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge. The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

It is not necessity a scum tell in this case (as there are already some knowns about the abilities themselves). I do not like the response though.

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge. The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

What I don't like about the Persivul case, is he says the role fishing is blatant, and also not a tell. Yet here he talks about Persivul trying to cover his role fishing. It was obvious. True, but what's to cover? I feel like he's just trying to pad the case with whatever he can.

Literally no one cared about the role fishing because what was said was true, scum know who the most powerful person is, there's nothing to hide. And yet hes after Persivul about it. When nobody in the game cares? I don't see anything wrong with Persivul's reaction.

So because no one seems to agree with my case that makes it scummy? That is a pathetically weak argument.

Pers is scum - I do not see his actions coming from a town mindset. I was not 'padding' the case either - it is a good case in my opinion and if you don't like it oh well.

Also, FA_Q2's non-response to me replacing in and voting him is telling. If he was honestly scumreading my predecessor, he'd have been even more convinced that I was scum for laying down a vote on him with zero reasoning apparently disappearing from the thread.

I already pushed your slot and gave the reasoning. Responding to nothing is pointless - you give no reason and then expect me to somehow respond to it. That is idiotic.

I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

MM is null - I don't really see the scum case against him. Lane is a scum read - I have already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed.

Okay just to get some things moving I highlighted the quotes above on why FAQ2 is a scum read.
In short calling lane scum or his move in playing poker and continues to hold that as an excuse to scum read the slot.
Calling Persivul scum for rolefishing and for voting FAQ and hasn't moved passed that.
Talks about not interacting from Persivul to engage with him, which he hasn't done either so yeah not buying what he is selling for reason's to scum read someone.
Blantently ignores others in the game who scum read him or responding to others who have made points on him. IE: Why is persivul scum for not engaging but others aren't???? Yea that makes no sense to me.

Also if my damn internet stops slowing down I will eventually check into MM something struck me recently about him and I want to see what he is like typically as a player.

[Infinity 324]

@Fire: What's your read on faq2 and why? Why did you vote him and then not mention him the entire game since then?

I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Seriously? Persivul wouldn't give a shit about fire not wanting to be meta-read if persivul wasn't trying to read fire in the first place. If persivul was scum, fire making himself harder to read would only benefit scum.

Using "replacing out is NAI" as an excuse for not commenting on an important thing your scumread did is flimsy at best.

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

MM is null - I don't really see the scum case against him. Lane is a scum read - I have already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed.

You think lane is scum because of the bluff, yet it makes no sense to bluff without your partner calling. If lane is scum with someone other than mm, then the bluff still wasn't scum-motivated and a silly mistake just as if he was town.

Do you have any

other

reasons why lane is scum, or are you just going to continue to pretend to scumhunt using the same BS logic from page 10?

[lane0168]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

I think it's a good idea to let someone I town read win a pot.
Not sure why you disagree.

If we're doing the chip dumping plan, then I agree. But if we're not, like today, quit delaying play.

[lane0168]

Please

[lane0168]

There should be an unwritten agreement to expedite poker play as much as possible

[farside22]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

I think it's a good idea to let someone I town read win a pot.
Not sure why you disagree.

If we're doing the chip dumping plan, then I agree. But if we're not, like today, quit delaying play.

Hmmmm I think tomorrow if I'm alive I would like to explore that.


Also I did my research on TheMM and the one game he played on MS was much more thoughtful then the one he is playing here. Plus he had scum reads for reason's in that game.
Adding him onto my scum list.

[Something_Smart]

And I'm caught up.

fold

I think s_so missed my question, I could be wrong, too tired to check right.
Someone reminder to check on it.
Interestingly enough RC has me rethinking my scum read on him

Yeah, I did. Here it is:

You want to explain why your protecting RC?
As for meta on RC no, he'said someone I remember but not what his playstle.
You think being defensive for an experienced players is town??,???
Sure maybe if it was valid but that was page five and RC push was weak.
Why is MOI'so points against RC reachy?

1. At the time of me posting that, I was townreading RC and scumreading your slot.
2. I think being defensive is not always scummy, even for experienced players.
3. I think MoI was trying to find scum motivation in actions that were not necessarily scum motivated:
"Read back through his posts surrounding Lane and notice his posts where positions that Lane isn’t scum but refuses to take a stance that Lane is anything but Null." (203)
"Yeah, I had forgotten you hopped on MM. Why did you just happen to hop on the biggest wagon again?" (203)
"Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge." (107)
"I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows." (107)

Wait no it wasn't, why did you care if he had himself at the bottom? You had yourself at the bottom. You were voting yourself

Yeah but that was RVS and if he was copying Ranger like he said he was, those reads would be real and therefore a bigger deal than RVS.

You said you wanted him to elaborate because it seemed generic

Okay, semantics. What I meant was, it's easy to say my posts sound genuine. Can you tell me why? (because that's harder to fake).

I just need a flip. And s_s said fire's "probably" comment was his town play. The fire I know says that crap no matter what

That was me looking for any shred of stuff I could read Fire with, because he's a real pain to read. I've never played with scum!him, so I wouldn't know if he does that too as scum. (Which I mentioned in that post.)

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

[lane0168]

If you're asking me to tell you the difference between you calling something genuine and him calling more than one thing genuine, there is none. You both said the same thing. Yet his wording is somehow generic

Why did you need it out there that you wish you rolled scum? Was that just a preemptive excuse if you had bad reads?

And why did you need to find a read on fire based on nothing? Why not just have him as null since there was nothing to go off of?

So you think him having himself at the bottom was real? Like you thought he might actually legitimately have himself as his own top scum read? Having yourself at the bottom of a page one reads list is no different than a page 1 self vote

[Something_Smart]

If you're asking me to tell you the difference between you calling something genuine and him calling more than one thing genuine, there is none. You both said the same thing. Yet his wording is somehow generic

It is generic, and so was mine. But what I meant was obvious. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell.

Why did you need it out there that you wish you rolled scum? Was that just a preemptive excuse if you had bad reads?

Kind of, it was more of an explanation for why I didn't have very strong reads.

[qupte]And why did you need to find a read on fire based on nothing? Why not just have him as null since there was nothing to go off of?[/quote]
Because then he'd be null forever. There was stuff to go off of, I just didn't (and don't) know where to go with it.

So you think him having himself at the bottom was real? Like you thought he might actually legitimately have himself as his own top scum read? Having yourself at the bottom of a page one reads list is no different than a page 1 self vote

I didn't know what he meant... if he was being facetious, if he was looking for reactions, if he inverted it and put towniest at the bottom... in any event, asking someone to explain something you yourself did is not scum indicative, it's indicative of wanting to see if they did it for the same reason as you.

[Something_Smart]

dang it the one time I don't use preview...

[lane0168]

Hypocrisy maybe isn't a tell. But asking the amounts of filler questions that go nowhere like that is. Scum trying to look town.

[lane0168]

I think fa_q2 is l-1