Open 646 - Semi Nightless - Game Over (D6)

[Tenshii]

/confirm

[Tenshii]

1. Evidence

2. Most of my experience comes from unranked EpicMafia. I played 3 games on here a long time ago on an account I forgot the name of. It was enough to make me the level that's above newbie (SE or IC I forgot).

3. I don't remember what I preferred but I plan on doing both

4. The "I don't wanna take a 12 minute test" personality type

5. In most circumstances I agree

6. Yea

7. Of course I am. Am I scum to you now?

I agree that having a townread increase the odds of hitting scum from 2/9 to 2/8. But I don't see how that townread's vote/read increases that probability. I also don't see why if it did, how it would increase the probability more than your own vote/read.

I agree that it's unlikely for two mafia to bus each other D1. I'm not okay with outright ruling out the possibility despite it being unlikely.

@Thor At what post did you start townreading giga and why?

@Karnos Why did you post #70?

[Tenshii]

Io vs Karnos might be Town vs Town?

Karnos's posts towards vs Io are absolutely reasonable defenses. And #76 came off as "I know I'm town" rather than "I'm mafia and I want to get rid of the possibility of us bussing." Given that the #70 post was

justified by #140

, It makes sense for why #70 would be done by Town.

Io is grasping for straws but all of that revolves around Io truly interpreting #70 as scum trying to indirectly attack Thor.

This whole argument feels like a long battle of "how hard can I prove these few posts are supposed to be interpreted as town/mafia posts." If this argument kept going, today's lynch will probably come down to whoever won this battle. Which would be pretty stupid.

[Tenshii]

I still don't get why Karnos is scum. Please don't lynch him when we're like only 2 days into it.

VOTE: karnos for being the first one to post after my introduction!

Nah. This comes off as trying to hop on a bandwagon without trying to form an actual reason as to why Karnos to scum. Also why did you post 185?
VOTE: PhantomCobalt

with that based on what ive seen its karnos and KTL for the scumteam secondary scummy reads on luna and GT (gut mainly)
ANNNNNNND

VOTE: KTS

We real now

pedit: now that you mention that and transcend is not far off of making the list either.

How did you get these reads?

POST MORE TENSHII GODDANG

SUP WIT IT

more anti town then a naked vote near page 2, a call for a quicklynch on page 5 and policy lynch on yours truly on this page?

if you think trying fool you go ahead and vote me but im not gonna let KTL live outside D1. i can settle for a karnos lynch DEPENDING ON THE VC, MOD.

The former two came off as trying to reaction test. The latter does seem bad though. I also hate how KTS keeps saying "I'm obv town" as if it's helpful towards helping him get read.

[Tenshii]

COME ONNNN. Like I said in my 2nd post, this whole case on Karnos revolves around a scum interpretation of like 3 of his posts. Everything after that is just an argument as to why those 3 posts have to be scum.

For the sake of understanding where I'm coming from, force yourself to temporarily read Karnos as town. 100% town. Then reread this whole thread (because argument took like 75% of the thread and I s2g I reread this thread at least like 3 times trying to see where you guys are coming from so at least read it once through for me) and try to tell me that it's impossible for him to come from town. I think you're all just stubborn and think that you're so committed and deep in the hole that if you abandoned that wagon, you guys would feel dumb. So I'll give you all the light at the end of the tunnel you're looking for...

VOTE: Kcdaspot

Some of you guys are finding this dude obnoxious to deal with. And all he's done so far is poke people for a few posts, then say "x y z is mafia and a b c posts are town" without giving any substance behind it. He's trying to give off the vibe he's being productive and scumhunting without actually proving it.

[Tenshii]

Why don't you agree with it?

[Tenshii]

@ Thor, what posts please. Specifically what posts. I'm pretty sure I'm misreading who's "You" and "I" in your post so I want it clear.

@ Luna, Iirc, KTS was only scumread by you and giga. That's not really that strong of a tr. And KC already displayed intent on hammering Karnos.

Also I'm down for either KC or PC.

[Tenshii]

Lol I meant to say townread my bad. Idk why but I thought I remember you townreading him. And I for sure remember giga unvoting KTS due to "towny vibes"

PC voting without substance = KC reading without substance

But ayy lmao let's get this choo choo train goingggggg

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[Tenshii]

Btw, that still doesn't prove Luna's point about KTS being townread

[Tenshii]

Also I don't necessarily townread Karnos, I just seriously don't want the dude to be lynched yet because there's like little to go off of him. Again, his whole game is basically him being forced to defend your guy's scum interpretation. I'd at least want to see more from him.

[Tenshii]

Thor: question for Karanos.
Karanos: Misrep answer.
Thor: That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karanos: Defends the point of the misrep as some sort of weird 'teaching me a lesson' thing.
I cited him for dodging here: viewtopic.php?p=8124872#p8124872
He asked, dodging what? here; viewtopic.php?p=8124920#p8124920 (these last two weren't in my original lineup, but are here for completeness)
Thor: ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karanos: What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!

Thor - question for Karanos

"What presumes that I have a scumread at that stage of the game?"

Karnos - Misrep ANSWER due to his interpretation

/ Answers your question with "So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately."
Thor - That's a misrep answer, here's clarification if you're confused, answer now?
Karnos - "I interpreted your post in the same way Io did to me, yet you agree with her doing it to me and not me doing it to you" aka the lesson he's trying to teach you
Thor - I cited him for dodging
Karnos - Dodging what? (He already answered.)
Thor - ...ooookay, so will you answer now?
Karnos - What'chu talkin' about? 'quotes the misrep answer' I already did!

Karnos - Asked a question

"Obviously I have to be curious about that, but more importantly: how do you feel about people who flat out refuse to answer your questions?"

Io - Misrep READ due to her interpretation

[Tenshii]

Transcend, in this game, who do you not have meta on?

[Tenshii]

Thor did you read my 338?

[Tenshii]

Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

Yeah...except I'm not saying that, and if you can see how he logically interpreted that I was saying that - I'll give you a cookie.

And let's even go on further - do you think it is legit, if he agrees that he misunderstood/misrepped me in his answer, that he doesn't need to actually answer the question because he already did a misunderstanding/misrep answer?

Like, even if I was to go along on the crazy train that is his was a reasonable misrep teaching point (and I don't) do you then think it justifies as an answer to my question about his logic?

Line 1- THATS THE WHOLE POINT. YOU think that it's illogical to interpret it that way. But then Karnos is trying to bring up how Io is doing the same thing to Karnos (This is shown in the quote below)

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster.

I would agree.
Especially since I never said anything like that.

You are correct, you didn't say anything like that, I was just interpreting your post and reading between the lines, and taking into account the game state.

But now you seem to be pushing the idea that Io can interpret my posts, read details that were unsaid and you fully support her, while here you are arguing that your posts can only be taken literally.

It's a bit of a contradiction in your logic.

Line 2/3 - But he did answer your question. (This is shown in the quote below)

This logic doesn't make any sense.
Let's presume for a moment that you are absolutely correct and this is *exactly* how I see myself.
What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?
Because that's all that doesn't need to happen for this case to fall apart. Maybe I got my magical super accurate town read and haven't yet got a scum read - and, presto, my vote makes perfect sense even within the strange world of Mystic Thor the Wonderous Seer.

Do you have a rejoinder?

What exactly does a town read mean? IMO, it means the player isn't scum.

What exactly does a scum read me? IMO, it means the player isn't town.

You are pushing this inane theory that you are really good at town-reading people but really bad at scum reading them, which doesn't pass muster. There is no inherent difference between a scum read and a town read, they both measure the same thing, but town is on the positive scale and scum is on the negative.

So no, it doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several serious posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately.

Your question - What presumes that I have a scum read at that stage of the game?

The first 3 lines - The lesson

The last line - The actual answer. "So no, It doesn't make sense that at a point in the game where many players have posted several posts outside of RVS, you only have a read on one of them. And further, it doesn't logically follow that your town read is necessarily reading anyone else accurately." AKA he's saying that there's been so much information posted already, why do you only have a read on one person? Why wouldn't you have a scum read? And how do you even know that town read is scum reading anyone else accurately?

Also even if he weren't teaching a lesson, his Line 2 makes sense to me. I don't get the logic at all on depending a townREAD's read on another person. You don't know for sure your READ is town so chooing to bandwagon that READ's read over your own personal read doesn't make sense.

[Tenshii]

Note about my 363 post: When I say "Line 1" and "Line 2/3," I am referring to my top 340 quote.

[Tenshii]

@ Phantom, I'm willing to temporarily unvote you if you temporarily unvote Karnos.

[Tenshii]

@ Phantom, As either alignment town/mafia, you don't want to get lynched aka you don't want votes on you. So accepting what I said would be NAI.

[Tenshii]

@ Karnos, what's your 3?

[Tenshii]

VC Day 1 - 5

Karnos L-3 - Io, Thor665, gigabyte
PhantomCobalt L-4 - Luna Fox, Tenshii
Io L-4 - karnos, Killthestory
Thor665, Killthestory, Transcend and Rosske are all L-5.

(expired on 2016-07-29 16:30:00)

@Mod, Idk if that's standard but if you can please list out who's voting Thor, Kill, Transcend, and Ross on the next VC please.

@Thor, what are your thoughts on Io? Do these change if Karnos flips town? Flips scum?

[Tenshii]

Funny you say that coz i think Karnos is the bait here.

What do you mean by this?

[Tenshii]

i'm going to fact check this when i get time but i'm pretty sure lynchbait isn't widely townread by all but three people
(as in fact check if karækns is widely townread)

Not being townread doesn't justify a lynch. But being scumread does.

[Tenshii]

PC is the main lynch I want right now. Worst case scenario, non-contributing VI is lynched. Best case scenario, scum is lynched. Anything else, I'd have to reevaulate. I've kinda been debating on hopping on the Karnos bandwagon for the past few days, mainly cuz I do think that they plan on fighting to the death and they won't stop attacking each other until it happens, even to Day 2, 3, etc. So the sooner we can stop it the better.

@ Luna, can you explain your reads? All of them? Also how do you keep track of your reads? Do you just keep track of them in your head? Do you write them down on a notepad? Or what?

@ Io, who's Karnos's partner?

@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?

[Tenshii]

Who's your biggest scumread

In the "biggest scumread" kind of sense, PhantomCobalt is the one i think it's more likely to flip scum out of my non townreads.

and who's your biggest townread.

Gygabyte.

Which wagons would you agree to vote on, and which wagons wouldn't you agree with?

Current reads stand at:

Strong townreads: Tenshii and gigabyte
Townreads: Thor, Transcend, KC, Io, Rosske
Leftovers: KTS, Karnos, PC

Your last "current reads" post. I meant explain all of this. Or wherever your stand now.

[Tenshii]

@ Thor, who's Karnos's partner?

Not Io - that's all I've got.
Why, do you see any people who should be obviously ruled out or considered as more likely?

@Thor, Nah, especially cuz I don't scumread Karnos in the first place.

[Tenshii]

Tenshii, are you still scumreading Phantom? Walk me through your case if you are. I get the "well either we lose a VI or we get scum" but I'm really not seeing scum here.

Phantom, walk me through your scumread of Luna and me. Do you think we're scum together?

Hops on a bandwagon (Karnos) and justifies it with RVS. Eventually townreads (Karnos), his vote, but parks it anyway. Posted multiple times (aka multiple oppurtunities to unvote) without unvoting. Justifies it with not having a chance to reread through everything.

Town should be unvoting in this spot to decrease the chance of a townread getting lynched. I can't see any logical reason as to why town would act this way.

Iirc, any townread on him was justified with "He's acting so idiotic and/or scummy that he has to be town" which is garbage logic in and of itself. Which then leads to my logic of "Worst case scenario, lose VI. Best case scenario, flip scum." Getting rid of VI is better now than to keep VI into late game, especially when considering lylo.

[Tenshii]

Also, is it standard to just have read posts such as...

"I townread X, Y, Z and scumread A, B."

without justification? A majority of you guys just post reads without explaining why. Granted, some people explained how they got that read in previous posts but others just gather reads out of nowhere and don't explain them. But there are people that post reads without any explanation as to how they got there, which doesn't help me (and I assume others) read what you're thinking. *cough* Phantom *cough* And there are others that avoid explaining their reads when asked. *cough* Luna *cough*

@Phantom

@Luna

[Tenshii]

And there are others that avoid explaining their reads when asked. *cough* Luna *cough*

I havent avoided explaining them when asked.
They are literally everywhere in my ISO.

Eeeeh. So based off of your ISO, you townread Io when she was 2 posts in. And never commented on it since. Other than like restating the fact you had a townread on her whenever you posted a reads post. Based off of your ISO, I have to assume your townread is because of those 2 posts and nothing else.

My point being, I don't believe you actually have all of those reads, or you just haven't explained everything. Or you just actually townread her off of those 2 posts?!? So it'd be nice if I could see where you're at.

@Giga Whatever floats your boat

[Tenshii]

@Luna What's your reason for wanting to have X+1 in your leftovers? X being amount of scum alive.

[Tenshii]

In my case i only use 4 ranks "Super town" "Strong town" "Townreads" and "Leftovers" i usually lynch within the left overs, and "Super town" are people im 100% sure dont need reevaluation to the point of risking the game.

Do you have a "scum" rank that you use? Or are all scum just tossed into the leftovers. Will you ever use a "scum" rank?

[Tenshii]

I mean, I see evidence of sloppy play - can you translate it from sloppy to scummy?

Is what I said about him being scummy not reasonable? And do you think that what he did is towny? Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?

this and the fact that in the game i referenced, Phantom lurked h a r d there too (and he was a powerrole lynched D1 :/) just really makes me think that this is not a lynch worth pursuing.

This is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?

@KTS Why are you fillering so hard?

@mhsmith0 What do you think of Io?

[Tenshii]

@Luna I don't recall, please quote post(s)

[Tenshii]

@Luna That is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. Assuming you're okay with his play, what actions would he have to do to convince you he's scum?

@mh Your 2nd reason for voting Karnos was poor arguments, yet Io made poor arguments towards Karnos. How hard is your Karnos scumread?

[Tenshii]

@mh Your 3rd states a 196 post but links to a Luna post.

[Tenshii]

@mh So I will preface this with saying that I think Karno's 70 is NAI. This can be town asking an earnest question (as he justfied in 140). This can be mafia, as you guys are interpreting it. Therefore, it is NAI. Does this logic make sense?

75 - Io attacks Karnos on an NAI post
83 - Making implications on yet another NAI. Then trying to support her argument by putting words into Karno's mouth. Karnos being adamant about a Thor lynch =/= Indirect attack
89 - Io retracts the fact she made an implication. Then runs back 83.

Even if I was stretching that a little bit his reaction to the accusation by voting me is plenty enough to make a full case on its own because really just accusing your accuser for stretching an interpretation a little isn't even a defense it's just dodging the accusation entirely to get me to stop attacking him. A defense from him wouldn't have even been that hard to make as all he would have needed to do was to explain how I was interrupting his intentions wrong.

Accusing for stretching an interpretation is a valid defense. And he did point out how it was wrong.

And do you think karnos has defended himself in an honest and forthright manner? I feel like his defense has been sketchy, like he doesn't want to engage with the the actual case being made. And there's been a lack of clarity towards what he was even trying to do with his original posts (attack? Not attack? Just Thor? More than that?) that suggests that he's manly interested in just making the case go away.

Yep. Not exactly the way I would've wanted it but good enough. What posts made you feel this way?

Pps players who are bad town or mislynch bait type get more room to screw up in general before you can be sure they're wolves. It's annoying, but part of the game.

That is sooooo degenerate. Getting away with being bad town just because you've done it in the past is words I can't even explain. What actions would they have to do to convince you they's scum? Aka if they get "more room," where is the line drawn?

I could explain why in detail but it'd involve text walls and based on the way things have gone down I figure that town isn't actually interested. But some of the highlights:

I'm interested

"I meant ____" is a specific, direct answer. Karnos didn't do that

Semantics

[Tenshii]

@Luna If what Phantom did isn't enough to convince you, what would he have to do to convince you he's scum?

[Tenshii]

Atm nah, I have a soft town read on her. But ayy let's lynch Phantom yea?

[Tenshii]

@KTS I wasn't even talking to you but ayy we take those. Hop on this one man choo choo train.

@Transcend, momentum, wdym?

[Tenshii]

Hops on a bandwagon (Karnos) and justifies it with RVS. Eventually townreads (Karnos), his vote, but parks it anyway. Posted multiple times (aka multiple oppurtunities to unvote) without unvoting. Justifies it with not having a chance to reread through everything.
Town should be unvoting in this spot to decrease the chance of a townread getting lynched. I can't see any logical reason as to why town would act this way.

Is what I said about him being scummy not reasonable?

[Tenshii]

I mentioned earlier that I didn't think scum!PC would "rvs" his partner to L-2 without reading the game. Hence why I have been townreading Phantom very hard the entire game.

scum!PC can easily lie about not being caught up on the game and "rvs" bus his own partner. I still think any tr on PC is bull.

FTR if Karnos flips scum im lynching KTS tomorrow.
If Karnos flips town i need to reevaluate stuff.

Why did you let it be known that you would lynch KTS?

I'm salty af that mh dodged my one post that took me like a good hour or so because I actually had to reread those walls again. Also the reason I was so inquisitive about mh's vote on Karnos cuz I found it as meatless as KTS's vote on Karnos. If it's possible for KTS to be scum and bus hammer Karnos, then it's perfectly reasonable for scum!mh to bus L-1 Karnos. The difference being mh was able to point out reasons for Karnos being scum.

[Tenshii]

also he lynched a slot that someone he was formerly scumreading aka Luna Fox was voting him.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here at all. Also what is WKing

[Tenshii]

VOTE: Luna Fox

[Tenshii]

Also what is lamp shading

[Tenshii]

Thanks for answering my question mhsmith0

[Tenshii]

Lol I just realized my 982 has some great option coverage

[Tenshii]

Np means no problem correct?

P-Edit: I just looked it up.

[Tenshii]

@ Giga LOL I'm sorry

[Tenshii]

I don't like how Tenshii ignored mhsmith and my request for an explanation about you.

Yea? How do you think I feel then?

[Tenshii]

Does anyone honestly read through what I post? I s2g at least half of the people here have dodged a question I've asked them at least one time. It pisses me off that as soon as I'm asked a question, I'm expected to reciprocate with an answer but yet when I ask a question, I'll more likely than not end up getting dodged.

[Tenshii]

My 993 was directed towards everybody in general.

@ Giga Not really that. If anything you dodged my 959, but that wasn't a question, so technically it's okay. My point still stands though, you're tr'ing Phantom because you don't see scum!Phantom rvs'ing his partner to L-2. I'm saying that I find scum!Phantom more than capable of doing that if he was scum.

[Tenshii]

If he even does reply, hahahahaha <_<

[Tenshii]

@Giga The benefit/The motivation is getting townread for doing something like that. If either one of Karnos/Phantom flip, that RVS vote has a chance of making Karnos/Phantom viewed as seperate alignment. If they're both scum, this would be a good play on Phantom's part.

Like ffs, can ANYONE point out a SINGLE TOWNY THING Phantom has done?

Pps I can't tell you how annoying it is to play w people who are being bad town. In terms of how much I need to push them to lynch, it's hard to say tbh. Part of it is working specifically for finding wolf motivation, whereas w players you respect, "they're not playing like I think of them as town" can itself be a decent case. Then again this was (IIRC) part of why I was willing to lynch thor d1 in 644 (I found his Dunn case weak and reachy [it turns out he was right on it ] and it felt like he wasn't engaging the board as usefully as he did in our newbie together when he subbed there), and that was wrong, so *shrugs*

Who are you referring to as bad town? And why did you post this? Also are you a professional dodgeball player? hehehe

[Tenshii]

My vote on Luna is more of a salt vote than a read. LMAO. But Luna's all happy about it for whatever reason which pisses me off even more. I do think Luna might be scum with a part time job as a dodgeball coach, but if anything Luna is more likely to flip dodgeball coach more often than Phantom flipping scum. I basically hard read Luna as a dodgeball coach at 959, possibly could flip scum instead though. I still do want a Phantom lynch though. 100%. But given that everybody and their mother just reads Phantom as "bad town," I doubt that'll happen.

P-Edit: Idk why but I'm amusing myself alot by bringing up dodgeball.

P-Edit: @mh You're still reeking professional dodgeball player. I hard read mh staying as a pofessional dodgeball player after this post, but I lowkey think me bringing it up might end her career.

P-Edit: Luna + mhsmith0 are probably in a

scum

dodgeball team with each other. AYY LMAO.

[Tenshii]

I'm proud of my 1019.

[Tenshii]

Also I 10/10 think Phantom will flip Dodgeball Goon. bwahahahaha

[Tenshii]

Luna literally hard claimed dodgeball coach. Does anyone cc?

[Tenshii]

@mh Well yeah, you, yourself, claimed professional dodgeball player at 1018.

At this point, I'm more concerned about bringing up dodgeball for all my posts than getting a perfect town win.

[Tenshii]

@Luna Please for the love of god, don't dodge me, and give me the sources for the first 2 pics. I'll reduce your contract from dodgeball coach to dodgeball coach assistant.

Also if working in the dodgeball industry is alignment indicative, then my case on Luna and mh being a dodgeball team still stands.

[Tenshii]

Tenshii's Dodgeball Rankings

1. tojam2, probably has potential to stay as #1 on the rankings given how hard he dodges updating VC.
2. PhantomCobalt, hard read as Dodgeball Goon
3. Luna Fox, hard claimed dodgeball coach at 959
4. mhsmith0, hard claimed professional dodgeball player at some post I'm too lazy to go back and reference
5. Killthestory, he's that one dude that FILLS (heh) the water bottles of all the players on the team
5. Transcend, soft read as amateur dodgeball player
7. Thor, has aspirations for joining his school's dodgeball club but didn't decide yet
7. Rosske, insert some dodgeball joke here
9. Io, literally threw the dodgball that killed Karnos
10. Giga, Karnos whispered Giga who was on the other team to throw the game so Karno's team could win but Giga declined like a good person
11. Tenshii, fully incapable of playing dodgeball unless salt meters reach a certain point

This is now the post I'm most proud of.

[Tenshii]

70 seconds into the game, Karnos met up with Giga in an attempt to collude the game.

"Hey, if I give you this dodgeball, will you throw it at your teammate, Thor?," says Karnos, the dodgeball goon.

(imaginary story from here on out that demonstrates the point)

"There's no way Karnos can collude with someone on the same team as him." says Tenshii, the dodgeball spectator.

"But wait, what if she's trying to mind game everybody," says Phantom, the 2nd dodgeball goon.

Tenshii replies, "But Karnos is really passive and only really throws dodgeballs at people who throw dodgeballs at him. I really don't think Karnos is ballsy enough to collude with his own teammate because that would come off as rather aggressive in the late game."

Phantom shouts, "NO! That's impossible!"

Tenshii laughs, "Ohh no it isn't."

Phantom groans in disbelief, "Well dang Tenshii is so smart, I guess I should lynch myself."

Then Tenshii, Giga, and the dodgeball team that hard claimed hop onto Phantom's choo choo train to go see the end of the dodgeball ceremony. KTS ended up being a minute too late and missed the train, so he ends up lolhammering once again. And everyone lived happily ever after. The end.

[Tenshii]

"But wait, what if he's (Karnos) trying to mind game everybody," says Phantom, the 2nd dodgeball goon.

Wow I messed up my beautiful story. I feel sad.

[Tenshii]

No. I'm saying post 70 is Karnos, the dodgeball goon, trying to convince Giga to attack Thor. I can't see Karnos blatantly asking his scum partner to do this because he's putting his scum partner in a spot he doesn't want to be in in the first place.

[Tenshii]

i also do not like that he is not voting for phantom (even though phantom is probably town)

This confirms that no one reads what I post. As it stands, NOBODY would vote along with me, despite me working my blank off on the dodgeball court to try and throw dodgeballs at him. And I'm just generalized as the Karnos defender and the Phantom slayer. Everybody and their blanking mother is so convinced that he's bad town just because of meta. And combine that with the fact that Luna declared intent to 1v1 to the death with KTS, I don't see a Phantom vote besides mine happening today.

He's not leaving mislynch options open either which is what i'd expect scum to be doing at this point, he's also thining down the list of possible scum just like im doing, he's just more convinced that PC's scum, while im more convinced that KTS is scum.

What do you mean by mislynch options?

[Tenshii]

@Giga But by your logic, you should still dislike a KTS vote from me because I'd still be voting town.

VOTE: KTS

[Tenshii]

OMFG I FORGOT TO MENTION DODGEBALL IN MY 1068 RIP

[Tenshii]

Most of my vote on Luna was salt. And the more I thought about it, I'm basically picking between Phantom's doppleganger or Luna, which isn't that strong of an sr.

[Tenshii]

So there's this text box where we submit posts to the thread. We type in "Phantom" and highlight it. Then click on that little "vote" button. After that, click on the "submit" button.

[Tenshii]

On the for realzies though, if KTS is actually mafia, there's no way in anti-heaven he would self hammer.

[Tenshii]

Pseudo VC as of this post

Luna Fox L-3 - Killthestory, Transcend, PhantomCobalt the scumlord
Killthestory L-1 - Rosske, gigabyte, mhsmith0, Luna Fox, Tenshii the legend

Not Voting - Thor, Io

So the viable hammer pool is within - Thor, Io, Transcend, PhantomScumlord

[Tenshii]

Lol I really really wanted to bring up a strat early D1 where we use our two free lynches to confirm mafia.

[Tenshii]

Off Topic, anyone know any good balanced 6P + Mod setups for IRL. A setup with at least one power role or a setup with more than two factions. Or does anyone know where I can find a directory/list of setups?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... cro_Setups

That and EpicMafia were the closest I could find to a list of setups.

[Tenshii]

@Giga Yes please

[Tenshii]

Or 4 town 1 shot bp vigs
2 scum vigs + factional nk
Everyone dies = scum win

Are you saying there are 4 town's that have 1-shot BP and 1-shot vig? Or are you saying 4 1-shot BP vs 2 scum vig. Or..?

The 1st setup seems dope tho. Also the 2nd setup made me think 4 1-shot BP vs Scum vs Scum might be possible?

[Tenshii]

What is vlr?

Also I've never modded before but doing a VC looks easy af if you force everyone to use vote tag. All I had to do was start from the last VC, scroll until I see a white vote block, stop and note it, then keep going.

[Tenshii]

KTS is not my best scumread

[Tenshii]

Killthestory L-4 - Rosske, gigabyte, mhsmith0, Luna Fox

2. The Mafia can only lynch from Night 3 onwards.

Nah gais. This is proof that the rule is actually correct and both mafia are on KTS's wagon. *cue dramatic sound effect* DUN DUN DUNNNNNN

[Tenshii]

VOTE: KTS

Pseudo VC as of this post

Luna Fox L-3 - Killthestory, Transcend, PhantomCobalt

Killthestory L-1 - Rosske, gigabyte, mhsmith0, Luna Fox, Tenshii

Not Voting - Thor, Io

[Tenshii]

IO THE BLANKING LEGEND COMING THROUGH

VOTE: Phantom

[Tenshii]

Are you half lemming by any chance?

Eh? What are you trying to say by this?

[Tenshii]

@Io Have you read my posts where I've pushed Phantom? Or at least attempted to? Practically everyone I've talked to about it refused to switch to Phantom

[Tenshii]

At this point, I'm down for any lynch if it means getting the game rolling again

[Tenshii]

Here's another way to look it: We only need a townblock of 5 safe town to ride or die with. If we get 5, we can quicklynch the other 5 for a guaranteed win, and the last mafia won't be able to make the townblock small enough to win. At the moment, we're in 1 Mafia vs 4 Vanilla Town + 5 Townblock Town aka (1v4+5)

The flowchart to winning:

Day/Night Phase - Phase Action - Numbers at the End of Day

Day 2 Lynch Vanilla 1 (1v3+5)
Day 3 Lynch Vanilla 2 (1v2+5)
Night 3 Kill Townblock 1 (1v2+4)
Day 4 Lynch Vanilla 3 (1v1+4)
Night 4 Kill Townblock 2 (1v1+3)
Day 5 Lynch Vanilla 4 (1v0+3)
Night 5 Kill Townblock 3 (1v0+2)
Enter Day 6 with Mafia vs 2 Townblock

I'm down for Tenshii, Giga, Io, Rosske, and one of Thor/Luna. I'm unsure between Thor/Luna

[Tenshii]

Why smith

[Tenshii]

and there was TREMENDOUS potential for a karnos partner to take karnos side in the karnos-io debate, or just call it town-town, or find something else to talk about and change the conversation.

then why don't you just say it directly?

Although as of now, I'm down for Giga, Io, Thor for the first 3.

[Tenshii]

Who were you referring to then when you said that?

[Tenshii]

Finding town is just as valid as finding scum. Especially when there's like nothing happening towards finalizing a lynch (aka finding scum) in the first place

[Tenshii]

this is because the last scum is most likely to towntell and their scumtells will get overlooked.

I don't understand how the number of scum alive makes this true. Why couldn't scum be more likely to towntell when there's two alive? Why wouldn't their scumtells be overlooked when there's two?

[Tenshii]

Jsyk, My 1256 were genuine questions.

[Tenshii]

@Transcend At this point, you should totes restate your case on Luna. Your last x posts are "lets lynch luna" or something or other and no one is buying it. I also do think at this point you have conf bias.

[Tenshii]

I can get with 1298 and 1301. Also, we have like 3ish days left, idk how long that is for a forum game but I assume we should get a lynch relatively soon.

VOTE: KTS

L-1

Also lol at 1316

[Tenshii]

I don't plan on voting Giga. Unless that's like the only option other than no lynching.

3 days, 8 hours, 20 minutes

Is this accurate? I thought we were gonna end today/really early in the morning tomorrow.

[Tenshii]

Never minddddd. Just ISO tojam real quick and you'll get what I mean. The deadline has been the exact same for the past how many vc posts now.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[Tenshii]

@Thor My KTS vote was just a compromise. As far as I remember, I've wanted a Phantom lynch practically this whole game

[Tenshii]

@Thor Literally the only reason people are townreading him, or nullreading him at best, is because "he's a bad town." There's like nothing Phantom is doing that's town indicative. Scum with Karnos, I don't have anything on it.

@mh Nothing. Granted, Io brought up an interaction Phantom did with Karnos, but I don't find that strong enough to make that as a case by itself like she did. And there's like nothing in Phantom's interactions that will scream TvT, SvS, TvS and I assume it will stay that way.

[Tenshii]

I just realized how the countdown works. I literally thought he just copy and pasted the same time each time.

[Tenshii]

@Thor, PC > KTS even though you don't town read either of them because AT LEAST KTS has information to go off of to get an alignment read off him. PC is just gonna hardcore lurk the entire game. I don't see any reasonable explanation as to why a slot that has information to go off of (and assumingly will give more information in the futrue. ex: pc flip) should be lynched over a slot that's effectively just a 1 in X chance of it being scum.

[Tenshii]

What? What does it being lylo have to do with PC being lynched? And lynching scum slot, doesn't give you more info on the lurker slot. While lynching the lurker slot gives you more info on the scum slot. This is especially good considering that no one was absolutely sure on KTS being scum, so getting more info is always good. "I don't see any reasonable explanation as to why a slot that has information to go off of (and assumingly will give more information in the futrue. ex: pc flip) should be lynched over a slot that's effectively just a 1 in X chance of it being scum."

Idk. I know I'm town but I don't think I deserve a town read so to speak. Like, everything I've done makes sense as town. If that's what you mean then yes I deserve a town read, but I don't think anyone really deserves a town read so to speak. As for the ppl who are town reading me, at first, I thought I was getting town read to get buddied on but more people started town reading me so I realize there's some legitimacy to it.

Idk. I have the feeling I have the image of a VI and/or noob but like to me at least, everything I've done makes complete sense.

[Tenshii]

Lynching PC gives info on KTS. Lynching KTS doesn't give info on PC. Therefore, that is more info. And it doesn't necessarily have to be info as in townreads or scumreads, but also info like reacting to the flip of PC.

So you figure "dunno where it's coming from, but it's all Jake"

No idea what you mean by this.

Do you think the last scum is town reading you to buddy you - or is your theory only town are town reading you?

I don't know yet. I'm inclined to believe the latter atm.

Can you pint out one of your actions in this game and explain the complete sense it makes so I can maybe see the town energy it should contain?

Like me on Karnos? I still fully believe that he could've been the same way as town. He just happened to flip scum. So it makes complete sense for me to paint that as NAI. Or me attacking Phantom? Like I can't tell if you're just that deep in the hole or you truly don't get it. More information is always and undeniably good. Unless you are 100% sure on KTS being scum, you should always be happy to get more info on him. Keeping PC around will gain you NOTHING. PC will undeniably get lynched at some point. I don't see him getting nightkilled. The only way I can see PC giving info is if he just suddenly decides to start contributing.

Also I personally don't believe in asking a person to explain themselves to as why they are town. Like from your pov, anything I say to prove I'm town is just me painting a self meta that I'm aware of. It's like a loaded question. If I threw the question back at you and say for example you answered with "I attacked Karnos, and that makes me town." That implies that you wouldn't do that as mafia, and then because you yourself are saying that, it makes it lose credibility.

[Tenshii]

What would a town flip from PC have taught us about KTS?

You're saying there is no info to get from reactions to KTS' lynch?

C'mon dude you're answering your own question. And I'm saying that there isn't any info to get from PC off a KTS lynch.

Why did you change from scum buddying you to all town town reading you?

I said, at first I thought scum was buddying me, because I was only being town read by like 1 or 2 people. This was like early D1. Then eventually, aka right now, more people are town reading me. Logically speaking, not everyone who town reads me can be scum, therefore there is legitimacy to it.

I'm not following why your actions are supposed to read as town - they just look like opinions, like everyone has offered, yeah?

That's obviously not the case considering Karnos got lynched. Obviously not the case since KTS got lynched over PC. Also I'm pretty sure I was the first to bring up these to the table (Karnos being NAI and attacking PC). If your deal is, what are things you have done that nobody else has done, then I'll point you to my townbloc idea or me bringing up the Karnos vs Giga interaction.

Self meta only loses credibility if it can't be supported.
You're the one saying you understand why all these people are town reading you - I'm not asking for self meta, I'm asking you to explain why their reads appear justified. You...do think they appear justified, yeah? You must, because you're calling them town. So - explain it.

"Self meta only loses credibility if it can't be supported." What? Meta is using things like a tell, or behavior, or something that indicates a person is town or scum. Like if X has a meta of only being aggro as mafia, then that's his meta. As soon as he becomes aware of it, then it becomes irrelevant, because X will adapt by either not being aggro as mafia, or start playing aggro as town. My point being, I'm bringing up things I'm self aware of.

I, me, myself, think I'm being town read because of what I have done this game. Therefore, their reads are justified.

I'll be online if you wanna keep the convo going. Quick replies pl0x.

[Tenshii]

I agree with the bloc, and we should be getting rid of the scummiest first. The only reason lylo will be hard is if there's a reason for the bloc to collapse in the first place.

[Tenshii]

A bloc with Luna and Transcend together is likely to collapse, that's the issue.

Then why did you suggest it in the first place?

[Tenshii]

@Giga Where did your read on me flop?

[Tenshii]

Atm, I feel like we should either lynch me or Phantom today.

[Tenshii]

Hypothetically, Phantom stays alive today. I don't want to have to keep pushing Phantom the next day, or after that, etc. I 100% don't understand the purpose of playing with a slot that's effectively dead.

Also are we allowed to play the mod? Like get reads based off of mod activity?

[Tenshii]

Idk what the term is actually called. But it's basically where you make reads based off of what the game mod does.

[Tenshii]

Will post thoughts when i get home regarding the bloc and something else that recently just occurred.

So what was this then?

[Tenshii]

With that said, since I've misread him twice I'm going to back down a little bit from my hard Luna Fox scum-read a little bit. This bloc that Giga has I'll actually join but I'm going to disband if we haven't lynched scum in two (2) days.

Is there a reason you plan on abandoning the bloc at F5?

Also I do not understand at all why Rosske > Phantom

[Tenshii]

I dunno if I'm just retarded or if there's some godlike reason we should be keeping Phantom, the most obvious fucking townie in the universe, around.

Cursing feels great.

[Tenshii]

Anyways, I'm giving lf botd because my reads have been bad as of late. But I WILL NOT give it to her all game. Hence dissolution at f5.

Pc isn't exactly obv town but i have better suspicions on luna Ross and smith.

I don't understand where you stand at all. Are you saying you want a lynch order of Ross at F9 > Smith at F7 > Luna at F5? So then where's the PC lynch? Do you plan on taking PC to F3?

[Tenshii]

Don't disagree - are you voting Phantom right now? Because I feel like you're not, and then this comment looks weird.

Does me voting/not voting Phantom change anything I say?

[Tenshii]

@Thor I could apply the same logic to you. You're scumreading me atm right? Then why aren't you voting for me?

[Tenshii]

OH MY GOD THAT WAS FUCKING SARCASM

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[Tenshii]

Yes - that's why I literally said it would in the post you quoted. "then"

Sure dude. It totally does. Like if I spend all of this time attacking somebody, and I don't have a vote on him, it totally changes what I say. What's your point in bringing it up anyways? Are you saying I'm scummy for doing it? If so, how and why?

Yes, I am scumreading you.
I have not indicated my top scumread though.
Are you saying PC is *not* your top scumread?''

Yea atm Phantom is my top scumread.

@Transcend Why is 1536 scummy?

[Tenshii]

Yea.....and I'm asking for an explanation

[Tenshii]

That was the point right? He was using those quotes as a scum case for Rosske?

[Tenshii]

I've said you're scummy for a few things - pushing someone without voting for them while calling them your top scum read is a prima facie scummy action.

Vote: Phantom Cobalt

If you could explain how that is scummy, then by all means please do.

[Tenshii]

The day barely started, and there was discussion towards finalizing a townbloc. I didn't see a reason to immediately vote because I assumed that we would've all agreed on a lynch after finalizing said townbloc.

So you're saying scum would act like that to avoid being called out. But isn't there so much to call me out on already? This isn't a case like Karnos's where he tried to do a subtle indirect attack on you by disguising it in the form of asking Giga a question. This is me hard attacking Phantom. AKA you could actually call me out on attacking Phantom because I did do it. The only difference is that I happened to not have put a vote on it.

[Tenshii]

a vote on it today* I did indeed vote him previous days.

[Tenshii]

So you're saying scum would act like that to avoid being called out. But isn't there so much to call me out on already? This isn't a case like Karnos's where he tried to do a subtle indirect attack on you by disguising it in the form of asking Giga a question. This is me hard attacking Phantom. AKA you could actually call me out on attacking Phantom because I did do it. The only difference is that I happened to not have put a vote on it [today* I did indeed vote him previous days].

So you're saying scum would act like that to avoid being called out. But isn't there so much to call me out on already?

Considering that you started as a majority town read and I alone have yelled and noted to make people shift you to null or scum I would disagree.
You have intentionally been playing in a distant way in my opinion to try to avoid clear issues with your slot, and for the most part it worked for you.

So did you just only quote half of it to take it out of context? What people alignment read me as is completely irrelevant to how hard I attacked Phantom. And it is completely irrelevant to how much information there is to use against me for attacking Phantom. And distant? What? How have I been distant, in your opinion? And how have I been trying to avoid clear issues?

[Tenshii]

@Thor I don't understand how that is being distant. That's just a case of people reconsidering their read on me.

Empty = Nothing? All of my actions were justified right? How about actually pointing out what you mean by that?

Line 1 = I'm sorry that I don't go as hard in the paint as you supposedly expect me to? And I still believe in my Karnos defense.
Line 2 = And this is bad because? I don't think anyone and their mother refuted my logic on it. I'm even inclined to think you agree with me to at least some extent because you were on the wagon.
Line 3 = Yeah....what do you want me to do, not defend myself?

Also it's easy af to just generalize everything I did like that and call it "empty." Whatever you mean by that. Assuming your beef is that I haven't interacted with other people hard enough, did you not see my dodgeball rant? I'm pretty sure everyone in this game has dodged a question from me at least once. It doesn't help that for whatever reason, most people are inclined to dodge me unless it's a very argumentative matter.

[Tenshii]

It's getting late so I'm gonna get off. Gonna post the thoughts I have in my head atm, mainly for myself, but mainly cuz I feel obligated to post something. I don't have anything complete atm tho.

1) Thor's case on me is ass. I'll direct reply to it when I have time but I'm getting off. I'm not dodging it, just postponing.

2) Karnos + Rosske ...

Order of Events:

Karnos votes Io.
Rosske votes Thor
Rosske votes KTS
Rosske asks Karnos why he's not voting Thor.

Why doesn't Karnos vote Thor? It's really weird how Karnos tried to indirect attack Thor but when given the opportunity to bandwagon Thor, he doesn't take it. My main problem with the whole Rosske case is if Rosske is trying to support Karnos scum partner here, he should just be voting Io immediately instead of Thor. I don't get why Rosske would try to redirect momentum towards Thor when there was momentum towards Io. Unless there wasn't momentum there in the first place?? But if there wasn't momentum then Karnos should've bandwagoned along with Rosske's vote on Thor.

3) Karnos + Thor ... I was rereading and stuff. There was one post where Karnos defended himself with "me and Thor can't be bussing" therefore they aren't town. Not sure how viable of a scumteam this is yet. I'll need to think about it more. If this is the team then does it make sense for Karnos to not vote Thor when town!Rosske voted Thor? But then there's the whole indirect attack thing.

Giga + Luna for town.

Re-evaluating Transcend + mh

Also I got pretty apathetic rereading through all of that again. I quitted like 20 pages in, and I skipped all of the walls to get there. I'll probably eventually have to force myself to reread through everything though.

[Tenshii]

Dude, I'm cancer? That's hurts. I'm sorry I suck but damn dude.

I just logged in. Gonna finish what I had going but I had to post that.

[Tenshii]

Like what did I do that was cancerous to you?

[Tenshii]

Can you be more specific please?

[Tenshii]

@Thor. Your case on me is Distance, Not trying enough, Town Energy, Karnos Defense, Me scumreading Phantom, Me only defending myself against you.

Distance - What the fuck do you mean by me being distant? You're saying that because they reconsidered their read, that means they are distant. But that still doesn't make sense to me. That's just them reconsidering their read.
Not trying enough - Again, I feel that I've tried plenty hard enough, especially given how people have been responding to me.
Town Energy - I'm pretty sure this is how I got townread in the first place the more I think about it.
Karnos Defense - Your only reason on this being bad is because of his flip. At the time when I defended him, people agreed with me to an extent. Luna was the prime example.
Me scumreading Phantom - My logic was can't be town therefore scum. And I'm pretty sure I was not the only person who scumread him. You can't tell me that everyone who voted him just wanted to pure policy it.
Me only defending myself against you - At the time, I was 100% prioritizing the Phantom lynch. Fmpov, it doesn't make sense to push anyone else if I want a Phantom lynch.

[Tenshii]

Ugh, I can't even think straight after hearing that. I'll finish my Rosske thoughts some other time. Transcend, fwiw, I really want to know how I'm being cancerous to you so I can stop it. I didn't want to be a nuisance to anybody and if I did I'm sorry. And assuming I am, then I would really like to know how to stop being a nuisance. Aka, what to change about the style of my posts and my tone.

[Tenshii]

On the Rosske case,

Rosske voted Thor practically the exact same way Transcend voted Thor. Also Transcend voted the post right after Rosske's vote. Also Rosske asked Karnos to vote while Rosske had his vote on KTS. So I don't really think that could be a vote signal. mh kinda brings up a point of how Karnos was being pretty stubborn. I think the only real case you could paint on Rosske is that he's bangwagony but I can kinda see where he's coming from.

karnos L-3 - Io, Thor665, gigabyte
Thor665 L-3 - Killthestory, Transcend, Rosske [The real vote order was KTS, Rosske 2nd, then Transcend 3rd]
Io L-5 - karnos

I think Rosske was pretty justified in asking why Karnos didn't switch to his 2nd fos of Thor. The Io bw was getting nowhere and his Thor fos was. Karnos could've put Thor at L-2, but chose not to for whatever reason. I want to say that Karnos was scared of putting Thor at L-2? So why? This is kinda the bus aspect I was talking about.

The above logic depends on Thor being town as well. Scum Thor could be sheeping a supposed town, in which case that would make it much less likely I am scum.

Unless you think Thor & I are the sort of players who would bus each other day 1.

And this response totally would make sense if they were a team. Karnos's reponse to Io was very unstraightforward, and then he goes on a rant on why bussing shouldn't be a possibility. So the main problem I have with what I have now is why did Karnos indirect attack Thor in the first place if Karnos didn't plan on bussing?

1) Karnos + Thor: Given the gamestate, if Thor gets lynched, Karnos would be one of the inevitable lynches because Io existed. But when Karnos did the indirect attack, Karnos was clean and had potential to ride it out solo.
2) Karnos + Rosske: Doesn't want to hop onto a bandwagon with partner
3) Karnos + Transcend: Doesn't want to hop onto a bandwagon with partner
4) Karnos + Anybody else: Then this is literally the whole stubborn townie act mh brought up, but I do think Karnos could've gotten away with going onto Thor given how argumentative they were being, so I don't see this being a strong possibility.

[Tenshii]

On Io being nightkilled,

I'm not really a fan of analyzing nightkills because it's pretty wifomy. But fwiw, I do think the Io kill made sense. Io was a strong consensus townread. Also this might have been a nightkill signal? He is dead at this point, so anything he says at this point is either to manipulate town or to help his partner. So it kinda would make sense.

I seem to have a talent for getting hammered on weekends while I'm away from my computer, second game in a row where this happened.

GL town. Make sure you lynch Io for me tomorrow.

On Thor being a nightkill possibility,

Hypothetically I'm scum, and I nightkill Thor because he's tunneling on me. Therefore, I'm in a pretty bad spot correct?
Hypothetically I'm town, and scum nightkills Thor because he's tunneling on me. Therefore, I should be in a pretty bad spot? Not necessarily. I mean yea, I can see how there's strong potential for me to nightkill Thor here but there's also strong potential for me being framed. Which is why I'm against nightkill analysis in the first place because it's so wifomy.

[Tenshii]

Will pick up later

[Tenshii]

You are distant because you don't really get involved in anything. I've said this before. You've spent most of the game wanting to lynch a lurker for lurking - that was your big push. The only times you seem to have become involved are to defend Karnos and to defend yourself.

Okay so you're defining distant as in not getting involved. How is this not getting involved? Is pushing Phantom, defending Karnos, defending self, asking questions not getting involved?

People aren't responding to you because you're distant.
Are people responding to me? Yes? What magical power do I have that you lack?
Oh, and when people don't respond to me I keep asking - if you're town, it's your job to get an answer, asking once and going 'oh well' is not a valid excuse.

So because I'm being distant, people aren't responding to me. So how can people decline to respond to me in the first place if I'm asking questions aka getting involved?

I agree that it is a scummy action due to the flip and not inherently.
Doesn't change that it's scummy.
Can you describe anyone else who went to the Karnos defense level that you did?

I mean sure I guess if you wanna do that go ahead. I 100% disagree with it though. By that logic, if he flipped town would you townread me? To the extent that you scumread me now?

I also don't recall Luna particularly chiming in with support - if you think there's a case there feel free to present it.

I specifically remember Luna saying how she resonated with me and how she felt the whole argument between Thor+Io vs Karnos was TvT.

Can you describe a case offered by anyone on the slot? I'll wait.
I'll agree I may have been the only one being honest in my reasoning, but that doesn't change the reality of the wagon.
Do you think scum didn't vote for PC?

Io brought up a post which effectively started the bw on Phantom. I nullified Giga's auto-townread on Phantom due to an RVS vote, which I assumed eventually made Giga scumread Phantom. And I don't necessarily know if scum voted PC. I'm inclined to think that though atm.

And since then you've done...what exactly?

Okay sure dude, I've done nothing. Is me bringing up my thoughts on Rosske and Karnos's potential partners with reasons a bunch of nothing to you too?

Also, are you so deep in the tunnel and so sold on me being scum that you can post 1680 without even considering Rosske being scum?

[Tenshii]

Also, is the only reason Transcend is being townread because of the reaction to the KTS post? Because in that spot, mafia KNOWS for a fact that KTS is town, so mafia should be able to fake a reaction relatively well.

I'm kinda surprised Transcend is playing this stubborn-esque and he isn't getting much flak for it.

[Tenshii]

Night kill analysis is wifomy to some degree, sure. But io, while always likely to be an NK, was not especially likely to be the FIRST NK. Thor was.

I don't see what made Thor the supposed first NK target.

[Tenshii]

Thor not getting killed means something. It has to. Among the ideas:

1) Thor is the goon.
2) The goon doesn't understand how to make optimal shots.
3) The goon is trying to achieve something very specific by letting Thor hang around and Io (who has been much less active) get offed first.

Again, this is a decision that we KNOW was made by the last goon. It means something. We should be thinking about what that something is (though I probably won't actually do anything useful on that front until the weekend).

So how do you go about determining the motivation behind the night kill? The way I see it, you could paint anyone alive as scum using one of the three reasons you stated.

[Tenshii]

@Thor

Hypothetically, I get lynched and I flip town. Does that make you scum for pushing a town slot so hard?

I'm 99% sure you'll say "No because...." so whatever reason you have, just apply that to me defending Karnos.

[Tenshii]

Oh yeah, what's SPK? And what's smokescreen?

[Tenshii]

Rosske brought it up in 1623 and 1678

[Tenshii]

It was a general question towards anybody who could answer it.

[Tenshii]

@mh Hypothetically Transcend is scum and Thor is town....

Transcend wants to shoot Thor because?
Transcend wants to shoot Io because?

[Tenshii]

Oh wait nvm I totally missed it

[Tenshii]

VOTE: Thor665

-Saying I'm not getting involved even though I am getting involved.
-Not providing evidence even though I have.
-Townreads Rosske even though Thor has blatant problems with Rosske's play
-Scumreads me for not providing a case/evidence yet when Transcend blatantly refuses to give a case on Rosske, Thor just accepts it.
-His case on me is based off of flips and not the reason I defended/attacked said flips
-And if we add NK analysis, Thor being alive makes sense af.
-I think the main reason for Thor being townread is because of early D1 bus. If you guys think of Thor as a good player, Thor should be more than capable of bussing here.
-Karnos scumread Thor/Io D1. Karnos had a huge opportunity to put Thor at L-2 but FOR WHATEVER REASON, decided to stay on Io when Karnos was the only person voting Io.

[Tenshii]

Yeah that's kinda why I'm against NK analysis in the first place. Like if you wanted to go that deep, Did Thor not die because he's scum? Or because scum wants Thor to be suspected/mislynched for being alive? We dunno. I get what you mean when you say Thor should probably stay null-town-ish to avoid NK suspicion, and leaving scum!Karnos partner alive as long as possible, but straying away from this has it's own rewards too.

My only safe townreads are Giga and Luna/Wing. I suspect everyone else but Thor is my main scumread. I basically gave out most of my thoughts in that one post where I posted my thoughts on Rosske and Karnos.

[Tenshii]

I also have issues with Transcend's play.

Even better.

That's not actually why I said I scumread you - I would think you'd know this because you've asked me why I scumread you about four or five times by now.

You used it as part of your case on me.

[Tenshii]

I don't think scum!Transcend would intentionally not give a case when he could just restate/fabricate one easily.

I think Thor scumreads me defending Karnos as either alignment, but I think only scum!Thor lets Transcend and Rosske get away with how they are playing. Also note how still the only thing town reading Thor is him being so bussy.

@Wing Did you not read the whole 300 post? And IMO my unvote negotiation was a pretty sick play. Making it that much harder for Karnos to get lynched is sick. That effectively made it 7/8 to lynch Karnos. Add that I (thought I) made scum basically voteless and boom! I made a sick play.

Also I don't think anyone has made a case for town!Rosske that's only based on actual day play.

VOTE: Rosske

I don't really picture a Thor vote besides mine happening today.

This (and the rest of their back and forth) is one of those things that just makes it really hard to see Thor as karnis's buddy. What wolf boldly misreps his buddy in this way at that point? The push without a vote dampens it a bit, but it seems a lot more like "pushing a villager wagon without being on it" than it does "fake distancing/theater push on a buddy". The sheer depth of their back and forth on d1 just makes it incredibly hard to see Thor as the goon here.

Why would scum!Karnos be scared of voting a town!Thor here?

[Tenshii]

My lynch order atm is Thor > Rosske > mhsmith0

[Tenshii]

But I think only scum is within Thor or Rosske

[Tenshii]

Actually I take that back. mhsmith0 might be scum still.

[Tenshii]

What does that have to do with anything?
They did make a case based on meta - which is sorta day play, does that not count?
Apparently making a case on Thor for only day play is bad.
So why is it bad they went the other way with Rosske?

Iirc, Rosske's slot was townread due to one nightkill and less than 200 posts for meta. Both of this is the only thing townreading a slot that has 4 days worth of content. I personally find this ridiculous. Especially when Transcend/mhsmith0 concluded that stuff like NKA, Meta, VCA, should all be stuff that support a case and not be the whole case by itself.

[Tenshii]

@Thor When did your read on Transcend flip?

[Tenshii]

Like - you had a case yesterday of 'dude is lurking' and thought that was good but a case of 'looking over two games and seeing differences in scum and town play, combined with an analysis of who the scum's kill benefited and hurt makes me town read Rosske for the following evidence reasons (insert specifics)' is "ridiculous"?

Phantom was THE DEFINITION of not being town. His flip is the ONLY thing that made him town. Rosske is a slot who has nothing going for him being town except a night kill and a little bit of meta.

My current townreads are Gigabyte, Thor, and Rosske. Rosske primarily because the Io kill doesn't make sense from him, secondarily because meta points more to him being town but it isn't a strong meta read.

There isn't really much of a meta to go by. I refuse to use ongoing games for meta by principle, I should add.

I don't even think you made a meta case yourself on Rosske. The read was just bandwagoned. So if you can (re?)state why Rosske is a good meta read that'd be great.

I dunno, when did you see it flip?
Because my theory belief is it's when I just commented that he wasn't playing pro town a post or two ago (ignoring that I've been saying that about him for weeks) and also ignoring that it is easily possible to think someone is town playing badly and not scum.
So I actually think you're just skimming and asking empty questions.
If it was some other point in the game - outline where I flipped my opinion and I'll explain my reasoning.

Skimming, nah. But I don't really retain my memory of things that well. REGARDLESS, I think it's very fair for me to assume the possibility of you changing a read. Especially with that wording of "Transcend isn't TOWN AT ALL." Unless you're the type of person who just sticks with a read and locks onto it to oblivion

@Rosske - why is it when I ask you a question I don't get a response?
Answer some questions and pretend to be more pro town than Transcend who doesn't look town at all, please and thank you.

I think Thor scumreads me defending Karnos as either alignment, but I think only scum!Thor lets Transcend and Rosske get away with how they are playing. Also note how still the only thing town reading Thor is him being so bussy.

Requoting for emphasis.

[Tenshii]

Oh, doesn't look town at all*

But the point still stands

[Tenshii]

If he was the DEFINITION of not being town, why is it when I asked you what the case on him was you said 'lurking'?
Are you lying to me now, or were you lying to me then, or is the DEFINITION of not looking town lurking?

Not being town aka Not helping town aka Lurking

I don't get that at all - the only scummy thing I can really see there is maybe him not voting Karnos over it.
Looking at his completed scum game he explained himself a lot more, and stuck to a single position, and didn't vote very quickly.

So do you just assume that Rosske wouldn't explain himself a lot as town? Is this and a night kill really your whole town read on Rosske?

Yeah, there is, strangely, a difference between how you read someone and how you think they are looking due to playstyle.
I've been talking for literal weeks about how I think Transcend is shooting himself and his team, if he is town, in the foot due to his play.
Oddly the most recent statement of that stance changes nothing more than the previous ten did when it comes to my read on the slot.

So then why are you townreading Transcend?

[Tenshii]

VOTE: mhsmith0

The only thing I don't really agree with is how Karnos challenged kcdaspot. I don't really get why Karnos would attack his own partner like that. Other than that, everything adds up. kcdaspot's reaction to Karnos challenging him was pretty bad too imo. kcdaspot responded late (idk if that's necessarily indicative though) and had a poor reason of needing an updated vote count when it (i think) was pretty obvious that Karnos had way more momentum to get lynched.

[Tenshii]

It's still really weird I think that karnos never bothered making a meaningful survival move onto a different wagon, like Thor or PC, when there was reasonable chance to justify it. I guess he was trying to imitate townie stubbornness but it really didn't work.

It's also pretty annoying that we don't get VC's in order of voting, so it's kinda hard to unpack that way. I may try and pull one together that orders votes, but probably not ASAP.

Also this post initially rubbed me off the wrong way when I first saw it but it kinda makes sense now. mhsmith0 was trying to do an indirect attack on Thor. I think mhsmith0 would've pushed this harder as town. I don't understand why town!mhsmith0 brings it up like that without any followup.

[Tenshii]

kcdaspot's reaction to Karnos challenging him was pretty bad too imo. kcdaspot responded late (idk if that's necessarily indicative though) and had a poor reason of needing an updated vote count when it (i think) was pretty obvious that Karnos had way more momentum to get lynched.

kcdaspot basically ignored it in his first post after Karnos challenged him. (Where I thought he ignored) then after Kcdaspot replies to Karnos with VC update being necessary.

I more or less agree with the latter half of your 2026.

It's an interesting data point, just like the NK, where we have an action that we KNOW came from a wolf. Why do you think it's indicative for me to de-emphasize this particular point while emphasizing the NK in particular? If your theory is that I'm just trying to throw dirt on Thor, then there's a point of suspicion either from "why is Thor alive" or "why didn't karnos try to survive". Your theory seems to be that my de-emphasizing one point is wolf-indicative, even though what actually happened was that i ended up spending more time on the other point, which in your world also is just throwing dirt on thor.

I don't see how my choice to spend more time on one point instead of the other is remotely indicative on me, using "how does this impact Thor" as a framework. I DO, however, see this choice as potentially indicative on me if "how does this impact Tenshii" is the framework instead, since my choice to look more at NK motive and less at the voting pattern implicates Tenshii relatively more, and Transcend relatively less (both Thor and Rosske are implicated in either set).

Response?

Can you quote where you attacked/elaborated on Thor being alive? Iirc you never attacked/pressured Thor for it.

Also do you have any questions for me mhsmith0?

[Tenshii]

Btw Wing's page 80 is basically what convinced me. But mhsmith0 hasn't refuted much of it

[Tenshii]

seems pretty consistent with that viewpoint, for instance. Like, do you not think it's believable that someone who seemed to only bother to do one read-through of the thread before getting into things wouldn't have bothered to remember who was voting for who? If he was a wolf, then he'd probably be aware of who was on karnos and was just faking this note. Do you think it's fake? Or do you think that he, as a wolf, would simply not bother to keep track of who's voting his buddy?

Lean fake yeah.

Also, to be clear, you agree that the original note was a very weird thing for karnos to say to his buddy? But you still think it was something that karnos did in fact say to his buddy?

I don't think Karnos would say that to buddy. In regards to that challenge, I only think KC's reaction to it was bad.

Is it your opinion that I should have been directly attacking him with it, even though I had an overall town read, and other data (including the number and quality of interactions between Thor and karnos) made Thor look very town? I touched base on my opinion on thor wrt that info at viewtopic.php?p=8250571#p8250571

Yeah why not? It's not like it's a clear town read in the first place. Also I think if you're scum then this is you setting up for a Thor lynch after I get lynched.

I also discussed the implications of the NK (as I saw it) fairly extensively; look at my ISO between 1649 and 1763. I've also been discussing other info, including interactions (most notably at 1830), VCA, etc. I'm putting information into the thread, and pretty openly working through the implications as I see them. Why do you think this is wolf-indicative of me? Am I just trying to simulate a town process? Am I trying to do something actively pro-wolf? If you think I'm the goon here, I want to know why exactly you think this.

Well yeah wolf can simulate being town. That's how town generally wins in the first place.

[Tenshii]

UNVOTE:

Idk. At the time I felt like I thought mh was it out of the two. But now I can't remember exactly what I was thinking. mhsmith's reply basically refuted everything I can remember atm.

[Tenshii]

Intent to hammer

[Tenshii]

NO NO I THOUGHT MARIA WAS AT L-1

[Tenshii]

Oh wow I forgot Thor was voting me

[Tenshii]

Yeah I just realized

VOTE: Maria

[Tenshii]

@mhsmith0 In a world where you make it to 3p lylo with Trans and Giga, who do you vote?

[Tenshii]

isn't the last two what?

[Tenshii]

oh nvm misread. and idk, im just going through all the possibilities in my head

[Tenshii]

Why save GIga > Trans?

[Tenshii]

Not atm at least. And I didn't agree with lynching him because iirc like the only info on him was the whole Io/Thor vs Karnos debate. I wanted more info.

[Tenshii]

@Tenshii: Also, on a totally different tack... let's say you are in fact the last wolf. Who would you have shot the last two nights and why?

I contemplated this actually when you guys brought up the NKA. I think that in a true optimal sense, it's better to rng or let your partner pick the nightkill so that you don't get attached to the nightkill, and it's easier for you to play the day from a townie perspective. Idk if I'd actually follow through with it because you could rng a bad slot kill, but it's something I would contemplate doing.

OK so what kind of "more info" were you looking for? His thoughts on other players? Multiple days of voting data? Something else?

Everything pretty much. He was only arguing with Io/Thor.

[Tenshii]

imagine you guys being the town that blew 5 lynches and handed scum a game.

Why do you bring this up? Especially in other posts that you make?

[Tenshii]

I agreed with the sub-optimal thing. And the advantage of RNG is that YOU aren't making the kill, technically. So people can't necessarily paint a motive to the nightkill on you.

Potential info from Karnos > PC

[Tenshii]

Pontential info...

[Tenshii]

AKA, getting info from PC was unlikely

[Tenshii]

BLANK. IS THERE REALLY NOT A WORLD WHERE THOR IS SCUM?

[Tenshii]

Why is it not theater to you?

[Tenshii]

@Wing Did you not read the whole 300 post? And IMO my unvote negotiation was a pretty sick play. Making it that much harder for Karnos to get lynched is sick. That effectively made it 7/8 to lynch Karnos. Add that I (thought I) made scum basically voteless and boom! I made a sick play.

And I don't see why they couldn't be this way as w/w

[Tenshii]

Stuff like this suggests Tenshii lacks the ability to properly value call interactions, which could lead to a bad kill choice decision being made.

What's does the ability to properly value call interactions mean again? Lol

[Tenshii]

@Tenshii - why are you so game on the idea that maybe I'm a wolf but that Giga isn't - how can you clear Giga but suspect me? I could see suspecting us both, and I could see clearing us both, but the half in and half out thing makes the stance look screwy. Whassup?

Well yeah I'm paranoid about Giga too. But I'm more certain about Giga being town

[Tenshii]

I don't have much to justify it atm. I was planning on rereading at some point tho

[Tenshii]

O w8 yea, @Giga Does your read on me change just because of yesternight's nka

[Tenshii]

Meant to post yesterday but I had to get off. Gimme a bit to catch up I'll post in a bit.

[Tenshii]

just a vague "well I'm not 100% sure giga is town so there's a bit of paranoia there, even though it's not a priority to evaluate" thing?

This.

Apparently my actions can be a bus. Why can't his?

Why does scum!Karnos not vote his top scumread, Thor, when there's a bandwagon on Thor and nobody but him on Io?
Why does scum!Karnos challenge a scum!kcdaspot to hammer him?
Why does scum!kcdaspot not hop on your wagon and just try to counterwagon onto KTS?
Why does scum!Thor call me out for having a lack of ability to value call interactions and not explain what value calling interactions is?

@Tenshii when you can, may you please explain why you voted KTS over Luna Fox?

Which KTS vote?

If "we need a lynch" was your justification for hopping onto KTS in 1317, what made you change your mind and hop off him in 1377 onto a PC wagon that wasn't really going anywhere?

That was a deadline compromise lynch. And then I switched back when I realized we had more time than I thought.

This is a busywork question - why are you making it up to ask me? Frankly, the first one was fairly busy work also.

I still don't understand how that was busywork though.

I feel like it has to be Thor, despite everyone and their mother townreading him. Also is it just me or dae feel like today is lylo?

[Tenshii]

I was replying to all the questions referred to me in one post. Assuming you realize that, then I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Tenshii]

Oh I get it. Okay so Reply 1 was saying "This" as in what I replied to is what I agree with. And Reply 2 is saying there's more reasons for Thor to be scumread here than Giga. And also Karnos's interactions with Giga have tidbits in there where it comes off like Karnos is talking to town!Giga. And Giga has tidbits where she talks like she genuinely doesn't know for sure Karnos is scum.

[Tenshii]

if thor were to flip town, would you think it's me? Giga? Trans? Or are we all sufficiently strong town reads that you're really not worried about that possibility?

By itself

So, given that you think he's the last goon, how do you think his performance here compares to his one there?

Holy shit that ending tilted the crap out of me. I feel sorry for Thor. Also I had no idea what the color talk was about. But idk, I was never a fan of meta in the first place because meta assumes that the player is unaware of self or unable to adapt. All I got from it is that Thor never interacted much with Katsuki, part of it being that Katsuki was inactive. But none of this says, "Thor won't bus a Karnos partner"

[Tenshii]

Actually no I townread Giga. But Thor sr by itself

[Tenshii]

The above logic depends on Thor being town as well. Scum Thor could be sheeping a supposed town, in which case that would make it much less likely I am scum.

What kind of defense is this where Thor is town?

You're voting Karnos.
Ergo, if I'm right about you, statistically by voting who you vote I'm more likely to target scum.

Terribad vote

Why does scum!Karnos not vote town!Thor when Karnos scumreads Thor and Thor was at L-3 compared to Karnos solo voting Io?

Thor essentially death tunneled onto Karnos. It's not like there was any reconsideration as to a possibility of Karnos being town.

You guys are just saying Thor attacked Karnos so hard Thor has to be town, when there's nothing that says the way he attacked Karnos is town and not mafia.

[Tenshii]

Meta states that a player has a history of doing X. It doesn't state that a player is incapable of doing Y. You are confusing the two together.

Because currently my best guess is it's you, and if you're the last wolf, then if we lynch Thor you get an easy path to victory when Trans snaps me in F3.

This logic applies to 4/5 players in the game.
scum!Transcend is setting up mhsmith lynch today and wants me to snap to Thor in 3 way
scum!mhsmith is setting up Tenshii/Transcend today/tomorrow because Thor tr's mh
scum!Thor is setting up Tenshii/Transcend today/tomorrow because mh tr's Thor

I don't think it's Giga because of how Karnos and Giga interacted together.

I don't think it's Transcend because the only reasons I scumread him is lack of substantive reasons for pushes, filler posts, and trying to use fear as a defense. But the former was townread by Thor, and the latter two was never brought up by anybody, so it's probably just a trivial point.

I do think there HAS to be a reason why Karnos decided to not hop onto the Thor wagon. (It's either Thor because doesn't want buddy to be lynched, or it's Transcend because Karnos doesn't want to be voting along with buddy. Way more inclined to think the former)

I do think there HAS to be a reason why Karnos challenged kcdaspot into hammering him. (Karnos trying to set up Thor to look good)

I also don't really understand where Thor's reads are at the moment. He opened today with saying that I should be town due to NKA and abandoned that as soon as I continued to push him. He also plans on lynching Transcend despite previously having a townread on him. Going as far as to say things like "Bwah, you're so bad and you're being so anti-town but you're town" and stuff like that.

[Tenshii]

So you townread Thor, or just disagree with what I've brought up? Why?

[Tenshii]

Okay so why do you townread him

[Tenshii]

@Giga I don't know. Maybe it was an honest question I guess. I still think there has to be some reason why Karnos acted the way he did. Also, in a world where I make it to 3 way with Thor/Trans, would you want me to vote Trans?

@mh Why do you townread Trans? Also do you just straight up not agree with my 2593?

@Trans I still think it's Thor. But it sucks how 3/3 don't want to vote him. I'll fight against mh if Giga declares intent to hammer but I still think it's Thor.

[Tenshii]

I at least want Giga to post first. I'll switch if it comes down to it.

[Tenshii]

VOTE: mhsmith0

I really hate how mh just dodged everything I had on Thor completely. The fact that mh isn't even being open to the idea of Thor being scum (even after using walls of questions towards Thor) makes me sus of him. But all of Karno's actions point to Thor. So I don't really know anymore. If it's mh then mh buddying up to Thor today makes sense.

If there's any consideration left in you then reread any town case on me by Transcend, Wingback, iron, Luna. 3 of which are confirmed town. I feel like anything I'd say to directly defend myself would make you paranoid and just make you think "Oh he's just saying that as mafia." so there'd be more credibility of it coming from a conf town slot.

[Tenshii]

But I just really struggle to see how it's NOT tenshii here.

You should self vote tomorrow. Put your vote where your mouth is tomorrow for me.

[Tenshii]

I'll assume I'm just bad and Thor is town because NOBODY has agreed with me in the slightest. If I still have a say then mhsmith0 > Transcend.

[Tenshii]

Just tell me where your head is leaning before you vote.

Why is this information relevant to you? Also do you plan on making a final plea?

[Tenshii]

Oh @Giga basically just reread my last few posts on Thor. And as for the indirect subtlety thing, it's either an honest question or a distance attempt gone wrong.

[Tenshii]

Screw the "your iso/slot is empty" argument bullshit. In the game I was in, I was told the same thing and I still flipped town. And I still don't fucking understand how I'm/was being empty. In this game and in that game. Can you even elaborate on how my ISO is "empty?" Empty is the biggest fucking buzzword ever. Fuck. Your shitty empty argument is empty in and of itself.

FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD GIGA, reread Wingback's, iron's, and Luna's case on me. If for whatever reason you're scared of me voting Thor in 3 way then I'll vote the other instead. I would highly despise it but at this point I've come to terms with being trash.

Is there a world where I NK iron yesternight as scum? Is there a world where I hard defend Karnos as scum? Is there a world where I shitpost/salt vote as LAST scum?

So all the stuff about tenshii being self focused and not doing much in the way of scum-hunting, as well as the plausibly strategic vote hopping, didn't register at all with you?

Self focused my ass. And I totes wasn't scumhunting, you're right. And my vote hopping was amazing ikr. You guys were sooooooo slow to see it. I can't believe you guys didn't catch me earlier. <_<

[Tenshii]

If "meta" states that I have a tendency to be livid when I'm about to hammered as town, then "meta" can go screw itself.

[Tenshii]

@Thor, If you me and Transcend made it to 3 way with you having hammer, who are you more likely to hammer?

[Tenshii]

lol dwai

[Tenshii]

and I did think you were kinda coasting and not really scum-hunting

I disagree

[Tenshii]

What's HM?