New York 196: My Game, My Flavor Mafia (Mafia Win)

[Airick10]

This is my first game where I don't know what the roles are, it's a bit unsettling.

Same. Is it known what all the roles are with this game or is it designed to be hidden?

I also find the no vote troubling. We absolutely need to lynch someone day 1. That being said, I do read that Performer is willing and ready to vote for someone. Just not now.

[Airick10]

By the way, I'm also V/LA the next few days until Monday next week. Will try and log in when I can.

[Airick10]

Back - Just logged into the thread. Holy Shit! 69 pages?? I have some reading to do. Will post soon

[Airick10]

Okay I read through about the first 8 pages and then started to black out. I'm now reading from 67 on up and trying to get back on track here. Mass chaos....

So I see Titus's fake claim. And also noted Zach's retraction on post 1684.

My retraction was a fake retraction, Titus' retraction might be real.

Exactly how am I to believe that your retraction was fake?

I assume Dunn is not a Mason, Dunn...care to confirm that? But from what I see from Varsoon, he is still claiming mason. Varsoon, am I wrong?

Still catching up

[Airick10]

VOTE: titus i guess i mean i haven't reread them but i remember avidly scumreading them. i heavily doubt that titus/dunn are scum so if it's one it's this slot.

So you're voting for Titus if you heavily doubt she's scum? Or are you looking for a reaction here?

[Airick10]

i'm mason with boem

our bickering with each other was only theatrical

vote: zac

time's up buddy retract or die......

Okay you just voted for Zach. Why the jump onto Dunn/Titus? Are you now saying that the Varsoon/Zach pairing are town?

[Airick10]

Fuck... I log in this morning and get back home and I have 12 more pages to read. Okay, I suppose this is a dozen pages behind or so as I'm going to target the Titus/Dunn and Varsoon/Zach groups.

Titus - I see as town. Sure, it looks like an anti-town move on her part but I've viewed it as town saving town. If someone is that sure a potential lynch candidate is town, I think that says something. Actions speak louder then words.
Dunn - Town. If someone else is that sure you're town to really sacrifice themselves. Call my naive, but I'll believe it.
Zach - Always have had a town read from the beginning.
Varsoon - No strong feelings really one way or another, but out of the group of four... would get my vote.

Vote: Varsoon

Also, for the love of god can we stop posting unneeded messages that are cluttering up this game. It's been a nightmare to read through.

[Airick10]

When did I say I've read the entire game? I'm no where close to it. I'm trying to catch up

I have no strong feelings on varsoon, but with the lie fest that was going on with the mason claims dozens of pages ago, I'm going to work with what I know so far. Why settle voting? We need to lynch someone and I don't have strong scum reads... Just a lot of bickering

[Airick10]

You have two players who have admitted to lying about being masons and you're giving them both passes for it? Why?

Four players. Is Zach getting away with lying about being masons too? I haven't seen where you actually come out and say you're not actually a mason.

[Airick10]

I don't see Dunn and Titus running away with this if they are both scum + there's a plenty of time to ISO and discuss them tomorrow.

Agreed

[Airick10]

There's even an entire discussion thread on why fake claiming is anti town. I argued with Lapsa over this several times, in other games too. This is going to take some more time for me to catchup with what else I missed. Still only on pg 79.

I haven't seen that discussion and sure, it's an anti-town move. But I also think it's a case-by-case basis by game. I argue if someone believes another is town so much to take that much of a risk, it becomes a town move. That's the reason Titus has mentioned she did it and I've seen nothing from her to suggest otherwise.

Constant negativity from Titus. Starting to sound strange to me because my first impression is that it's pointless to constantly inject your negativity in here , as there's plenty of drawn-out discussion already.

I do agree with this however, I don't like the constant negativity vibe she gives off throughout the game. The game itself has made it rather easy to go negative pretty quickly, but the attitude of really not even caring much anymore about it does give off an anti-town vibe.

[Airick10]

I'll go back to it but Performer is viable scum. Remember this.

I'm curious on what your scum read is on Performer. Because I don't see it.

Vedith might just be dumb town

Like don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind lynching him knowing he's town

I'm curious how many times you've flip-flopped today. Also, the second sentence is bad.

Absolutely agree with this.

Fuck it. I haven't been impressed by Vedith and you fucks are going to let Titus off the hook.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vedith

I've seen too much of this talk recently. How exactly is Titus being let off the hook here? Doesn't she STILL have the most votes even with your vote on Vedith? In fact, you just took your vote off Titus. Aren't you letting her off the hook yourself?

[Airick10]

To clarify, I agree with both Wake's points on Dunn.

[Airick10]

As transcend said posts ago... we are at 100 posts on D1. Clearly the vocal players have not been able to convince the town to lynch anyone. In fact, as A50 puts it (my math was wrong) you left a L-4 to join a L-6. Who is convincing you to vote on the smaller wagon? The whole game you've been on Titus, now you switch? Your vote screams emotion and no logic. I also sense following a hot wagon just to do it.

Unvote

Vote: Agar

[Airick10]

@Wake --- Noticed the same thing

[Airick10]

We spent some 40-50 pages dealing with two sets of mason claims, all of which are bullshit. Multiple people who were voting Titus have since said "I won't vote Titus today." Go and read the fucking thread and see it for yourself dickweed. Don't lurk your ass of for the whole game and then opportunistically NOT KNOW what the fuck is going on and claim "Hurr durr you left L-4 to go to L-6." You're both fucking stupid and need to read the game.

There is logic. We need

something

of fucking use to happen for now. If that means wagonning up Vedith, I'm all for it. He's been absolute shit since he came in, and he replaced a slot that contributed nothing, so we might as well consider him a fresh start. Am I pissed that we're not going to powerlynch the fuck out of scumbag Titus today? Absolutely. But don't be part of the dipshit brigade, this is a logical and intentional move.

I have read the last 2 days of the game. After V/LA, I simply gave up on the first 3 days reading through 60+ pages. However... yes I acknowledged in post 2309 that the town maybe open to discussing Dunn/Titus further in D2.

That being said, you've had a vote on Titus throughout 100+ pages of posts. Titus is also the closest to be lynched now. I do not find it logical to bail on her to follow the Vedith wagon. The first thing you mention is that he's been absolute shit since he came in. There's no logic there. If you want to say he hasn't contributed, fine. If you come out and say you feel more confident Vedith is scum, fine. But don't try to come across that you casted a logical vote blaming the town on not riding the Titus vote.

[Airick10]

I honestly think that if we lynch Podo and he's town we have a better shot at winning this game.

I honestly think that if we lynch Titus and she's town we

STILL

have a better shot at winning this game.

Dear God... I may just start ignoring you two... Seriously guys?

[Airick10]

the agar wagon is just an excuse for people who don't want to be scrutinized for leaving the titus wagon

From what I see, no one voting for AGar now was on the Titus wagon.

[Airick10]

Trying to get players mod-killed IS in fact a scum tell.

I'd correct this in saying it's a scum move. Way too overt to be a tell. Eh, potato potahto

[Airick10]

I wouldn't just laugh off that Dunn stuff. Shannon did in fact ask for a mod-kill. I'm sure scum would love a free kill.

I disagree with Vedith that it 'insults' the mod. I think that's kind of ridiculous. But I did not see that as a bad vote switch.

[Airick10]

Is there something specific that makes you think I'm scum with him or do you just think we're both scum? To my knowledge I've barely acknowledged him this game.

That doesn't matter, in fact that makes it even more suspicious.

I

am

obvTown this game.

Ha! I think everyone would echo you here.

It's mischaracterising my position to say that I was 'called on it' and made AtE. I don't feel under attack from the people that have scum read me for wanting the mod kill. I get that everyone has a different view and that it could be a scum wanting a free townie kill, but in this instance it is a genuine townie wanting to get rid of liars. You'll only see that when I flip, and at any rate it doesn't really matter because no one else (not least the mod, who PMed me about it) went for the idea.

Here's the thing with this... on one hand, you're calling out Titus for sacrificing herself to save Dunn. Which is an anti-town play. You're correct about that and you've had pressure on Titus throughout the game because of it. That's fair. On the other hand, wanting a mod kill is also an anti-town play and it's fair to criticize you for it. Your response is to ask the town to lynch you (as you've claimed VT). If you are in fact town, why is that a pro-town move? It seems like a desperate defense attempt. As I acknowledge both were anti-town plays, I certainly don't see how your play was all that much opposite as to what Titus did.

[Airick10]

To clarify - your play on this current defense.... "Sacrificing" yourself to the town.

[Airick10]

Wow, reading back from last night that looked like a really fast wagon. I don't have a problem lynching Vedith as long as we were careful with the soft claim. Of course that didn't happen and here we are. I hope the town is right!

[Airick10]

This whole action really concerns me (yeah.. well duh right?). Dunn is willing to follow Titus all the way to hammering.

Did I really

To be fair nobody called l-2 or l-1 or anything

To be fair, they shouldn't have to. Surely this all plays off 'dumb town', but it's incredibly scummy nonetheless. In the span of two hours, beyond midnight (at least my time)... five votes are cast that hammer Vedith. The same Vedith who declared he'd share his role. We are hammering him without even giving him a chance to share that to the town? I really hope Vedith somehow flips scum, but if he does in fact flip town I would definitely target Titus, Trancend, Beom, and especially shannon and Dunn.

[Airick10]

I want to take this back to basics here...

- Vedith was at L-5, where in a span of about two hours around deep in the evening (for me at least) five votes were casted seemlingly immediately to go Vedith out. Titus says she sees no problem with the wagon. Transcend says he just wants to kill someone who isn't AGar. Boem implies he's following the wagon as well. Shannon puts him at L-1 and Dunn hammers him without even knowing it.

Because Vedith flipped scum PR (Well done btw!), is it really fair to assume that all Titus, Trancsend, Boem, Shannon, and Dunn are all town? Would scum join that immediate wagon and kill one of their own? I think that's a question we have to start asking and I really don't see that being done. That act alone sheds a lot of info here. The counter to that (and I agree) is to start looking at the AGar wagon and the Titus wagon... those who did not join in that wagon and I highlight that two hour window because did everyone actually have a chance to cast a vote before it was too late? I think the focus is way too far into the Wake and Titus tunnels and cherry-picking... where as we need to work with what we know and ask the right questions.

Also, I'd like to highlight those who were voting Vedith before that night. AGar, Performer, PV, Zach, and I'll include beeboy because I don't think beeboy intended to start that two hour wagon. Isn't it reasonable to suggest one of these may very well be scum sitting on this wagon (not thinking it would escalate like it did)? Zach, since you were on Nos/Vedith for most of the game... I figured after the Dunn hammer that you'd be thrilled. Instead... here's your first post after the hammer.

....I was one of the original proprietors of this wagon..... I have nothing to do with any of this you all should feel bad

Hmm, you seemed pretty confident that Vedith was the right kill in D1. Why all of the sudden are you frustrated and claiming innocence when we killed the scum that you wanted us to kill? You're immediately attacking Dunn for hammering Vedith. Why is that? Didn't he do the job?

As far as the Lapsa kill - I agree with Zach on post 2885. You used one your bullet on night 1 on Lapsa? You mention your Lapsa/A50/Mir team that there's scum there. That could be the case, but according to the final D1 vote, NONE OF THEM were voted on. So you are going to use your bullet on one of them, hoping he'd turn scum and the rest of the town would immediately target A50 and Mir? That's a hell of a risk. I wish you had that bullet back now and gotten a little more information.

[Airick10]

The job was done. Your vote, just like nine others, voted to kill him. You did unvote Vedith after his soft claim, but a day later voted back for him. All of the sudden his soft claim didn't matter anymore?

[Airick10]

UNVOTE:

Not pushing anything

I am OPEN to ideas

So much for being open to ideas. All boem said was he thinks we should look at A50/podo/implosion. Look Dunn, I do believe your claim... but between the fake masons, the 'accidental' hammer, a waste of a one shot in my opinion, and constant flip-flopping I'd just like to see a town figure actually play as town.

[Airick10]

Yes you have been voting him today, and I have no problem with the A50 vote. I just wonder why bother unvoting if you just immediately agree with someone who voted for your target for today? That's not being open to ideas.

[Airick10]

I'm not pushing anyone right now, a50 claimed jailkeeper

UNVOTE:

Alright, I examined Lapsa's iso

1: He talked to me a lot. This is useless.
2. He suspected Titus. However, I think Titus would have killed me, instead. It looks more like somebody trying to frame Titus, than Titus being actual mafia
3. He was maybe killed if Mirhawk is mafia to do both 2 and try to get suspicion off of mirhawk

Right now, best bet:
VOTE: Mirhawk

Haha. Not pushing? People are following.

[Airick10]

I'd like to hear from either Performer or Mirhawk. Although it being July 4, I didn't expect this many posts today!

[Airick10]

Except that's speculation and you vigged Lapsa lol

Why would you claim the kill instead of trying to draw tonight's NK? You already used your shot and you haven't really been game solving... just sheeping Titus

Where do you get this impression? I am finding Dunn to be difficult to work with myself.

My take, just a couple examples. Posts 2210 & 2211. Also the Vedith wagon. Dunn would follow as far as to hammer someone without even knowing it. Note, Zach told Dunn that he's sheeping you. He did not ask you if you enjoyed it.

[Airick10]

@Dunn:

That is beside the point. the point is you're voting EVERYONE, accusing EVERYONE, and making a lot of noise with little to gain. I can't even wrap my head around half of the content of this thread bc of your noise. Tone it down a little. Focus. Give me something to read through, mate!

Agree with this. I don't see it anywhere... A50 - Why did you Jail Dunn?

[Airick10]

So to sum up where I am with those who were on the pre-blitz Vedith wagon...

AGar - I honestly felt 2362 was the scummiest move of the game. Vedith did turn up scum and I didn't like his logic behind this. I did however much more like this post 2635. It was reasoned out a bit more then just a simple emotional (and irrational) vote change. I'm not quite as suspicious as he never unvoted after being attacked and I doubt scum would have wanted the spotlight on them for it.

Performer - I don't see a reason he gave to vote Vedith other then it was a popular choice at the time. I do want to point out post 2329. The same day he voted Vedith for no reason and also changed his read on Mir. Vedith wasn't on his 'lynch' list. So either he wasn't all that confident in that lynch list or he really felt Vedith was scum? Interesting.

PeregrineV - Voted Vedith with the addition of thinking Mir was linked up with him (interesting). This post is really the only reason I see why he did it 2507. I recall seeing this a lot in D1, where Vedith just gave nothing or his posts were shitty. Simply an emotional reason vs. an analyzed reason. On PV's second point, I think Mir was referring to 'newtown' as someone who replaced Nos. Not necessarily just a new player?

Zach - I still find Zach's reaction to the Vedith hammer very strange. Again, Zach was onto Nos/Vedith for quite some time and got the lynch he wanted. You're upset about the hammer? Out of this group, that reaction stands out to me as someone who didn't actually want Vedith to be lynched.

Beeboy - I liked this post 2662 where he is calling out the blitz wagon as it's happening. I think he's the most town person on this list.

[Airick10]

Well so much for hitting submit vs preview.

Anyway... I was going to say I think we are ignoring the voting groups that were formed in D1. I still find it very peculiar that 5 of 10 votes were counted for Vedith late at night in a span of two hours. And I also think it's reasonable to suggest one of them could be scum. I also think it's even more reasonable the first 5 votes that were not part of that late blitz wagon also had scum in there. The post above is my take on those five votes. To be fair, I don't know if any of them would unvote during that blitz wagon as it was happening... but given the short time frame of it. Did they even have a choice?

Out of the five, three of them (AGar, Performer, PV) haven't responded in D2 so far... granted, it is a holiday. But they have quiet most of the game and I wouldn't expect them to unvote during that blitz. I'm open to looking at other groups who voted who in D1, but I do believe there is scum in this list.

[Airick10]

To clarify - out of this group I suspect Performer and Zach mostly. I'm not completely gone away from AGar, but I did like his last posts towards the end of D1.

[Airick10]

shannon, you're correct... I am narrowing into my own time zone. So that really is irrelevant. But I'm more startled at a two hour 5-vote blitz.

[Airick10]

Hmm, did you though? I don't recall seeing an answer to why you revoted Vedith after you unvoted due to the soft claim.

Um, because he claimed IC to fuck with us like a scumbag. I don't know people's alignments so I have to factor in room for error. I'm pleased that my original decision was right though

The job was done. Your vote, just like nine others, voted to kill him. You did unvote Vedith after his soft claim, but a day later voted back for him. All of the sudden his soft claim didn't matter anymore?

[Airick10]

Mirhawk thoughts... He never struck me as posting scummy posts. The read he had on Ved was that he was 'newtown'. He explains in 2531 what he means by that. Okay, that's fine by me. The thing that is interesting to me is that his vote was on shannon. Unvoted, then voted shannon again (saying he doesn't need to explain why). Whatever that means. What stands out isn't the unvote and re-vote, but it's that he never unvoted shannon during the Titus wagon, AGar wagon, or the Vedith wagon. He stayed on the shannon vote to the end. Adding to that, Vedith also voted shannon. To sum it up, I personally am null on mirhawk. Could he be teamed up with Ved and not voted on him (plus defended him as newtown), maybe. If so, would he be stupid enough to leave his vote on the same person Vedith vote? Maybe.

I'm not sure that Mirhawk would leave his vote on shannon with Vedith if they are partners, that's seems dumb to me.

If we are looking at the voting pattern, I tend to agree with this. But again, maybe mirhawk really is stupid?
---------------
Here's something else I've noticed in D2. Mirhawk has a wagon on him and here are reasons that are given.

If Lapsa flipped mafia, there would be strong associative evidence for mirhawk and A50.

But Lapsa didn't flip mafia. So..?

I want my vote to do something; to that end I'd rather vote together with someone else than throw out a naked vote on, say, Mirhawk. This should be clear from my play yesterday.

Alright, I examined Lapsa's iso

1: He talked to me a lot. This is useless.
2. He suspected Titus. However, I think Titus would have killed me, instead. It looks more like somebody trying to frame Titus, than Titus being actual mafia
3. He was maybe killed if Mirhawk is mafia to do both 2 and try to get suspicion off of mirhawk

Right now, best bet:
VOTE: Mirhawk

VOTE: Mirhawk based on what Dunn says in 3010

Even I didn't think it was

that

convincing of an argument

Unvote

VOTE: Mirhawk
And i swear if anyone calls this vote opportunistic after what i've been saying today there will be words.

UNVOTE: Wake

I'm going to vote Performer or Mirhawk. I have not decided which. Both might be scum.

Out of all of these votes and comments, the only case anyone is bringing to the table is that Mir may have shot Lapsa. Although Dunn himself is saying he shot him... Or maybe he didn't if Dunn was jailed. That's a lot of votes for... hmm, well nothing?

Again, I don't see any real scummy posts from Mirhawk. I'd like to actually see him post! I don't have a strong read one way or another, honestly.

[Airick10]

Well it was a shitty soft claim. Are you implying he was my partner and I bussed him in the end? LMAO

Yes, I'm saying that's entirely possible. I'm looking at votes and what happened at night and asking questions. As I've said, I think it's plausible to believe someone who voted Vedith was scum. I tend to believe it was one of the early votes. It's also plausible someone who did not vote Vedith was scum. Out of the five people who voted Vedith before the blitz wagon, I find Performer and your actions the most suspicious.

[Airick10]

Voting him for not posting anything is a fair reason (take away a holiday and the mafiascum server outage aside). I give you that. But I haven't seen that as a reason to vote him throughout D2, except for now. Did I give your reason for you?

[Airick10]

Anyway... glad to see the servers are back up. I'm out for the night.

[Airick10]

Well it was a shitty soft claim. Are you implying he was my partner and I bussed him in the end? LMAO

Yes, I'm saying that's entirely possible. I'm looking at votes and what happened at night and asking questions. As I've said, I think it's plausible to believe someone who voted Vedith was scum. I tend to believe it was one of the early votes. It's also plausible someone who did not vote Vedith was scum. Out of the five people who voted Vedith before the blitz wagon, I find Performer and your actions the most suspicious.

You've got a better chance landing a fucking plane than landing a lynch on me, and I hope you're a pilot.

I'll also note that while you find mine and Performer's actions the most suspicious, you have cast a vote on no one.

First of all, funny enough I do fly planes and have landed hundreds of times.

You're pretty defensive over some simple questions, that you...kind of...answered. Such as why you'd revote Vedith after you unvoted him due to his soft claim? You're saying it was just a shitty soft claim. Okay, I trust your actions more then I do your words. You're correct, I have not voted anyone yet. That's because I haven't narrowed down the top scum target on my list. I'm going through D1's vote totals and trying to find scum. Yes, I'm suspicious of you, but haven't voted you yet.

I'm also going to dig through the non-Vedith voters and see if I notice anything that strikes me.

Yay server is back up!

Airick can you explain why you are soft defending Mirhawk with the null read in 3084? There are only four votes on him, why try to derail the wagon before we get a response from him?

A null read means soft defending him? A null read is a null read. I think the key is the vote on shannon. Is he that stupid to leave his vote with Vedith on shannon? Maybe. I have to look at his votes again, but I don't recall him ever joining in on the TItus, Agar, or Vedith wagons.
I'm attacking the Mirhawk wagon because there's no substance behind it. It just appears he's the choice of the day for no real good reason. If Mirhawk is our choice for the day... fine, but put some reasoning behind it.

By the way Performed is town so I insist you cease this wagon immediately

VOTE: Performer

This is hilarious

It's like that awkward silence where the guy who realizes you have to look at past interactions Day 1 gets ignored even though he knows what he's doing.

WAIT NO WAIT. Don't look at early Nos-slot interactions. Might be dangerous!

Let's keep voting players NOT based on interactions with dead flipped Scum slot!

Absolutely. But to add to this, who voted on who and why?

[Airick10]

As with the Vedith voters before the 5 vote blitz hammer group, I wanted to look at those who voted elsewhere because I believe there is scum in here somewhere. Obviously, scum doesn't want to kill their own partner. Duh

Here are my reads and what I've noticed with voting patterns. I tend to focus on votes rather then words and speculation.

Mirhawk

- Already gave my thoughts on 3084. I find the shannon vote interesting, especially that he keeps the vote on there with Vedith. Null read overall.

Varsoon

- Absolutely dedicated to call out Dunn and eventually Titus when she comes clean on the fake claim. The reads I get is that is all he was focused on and his voting pattern matches that. He does actually call out Vedith to looking scummy on 2371. I have a strong town read here.

Wake

- Kind of all over the place with votes on D1, but seems pretty consistent against Titus and Dunn. Unvotes Titus in D1, knowing he’s still suspicious and immediately votes for her in D2. I think he has legit suspicions on Titus and don’t see a possible Vedith connection. I think asks good questions and pro-town actions. Town read.

A50

- Voted for PV twice for basically lurking. Staying on that team, he calls out Agar (and votes him) for lurking and Agar’s wagon hop to Vedith. Also states in 2375 & 2381 that he prefers a Sick lynch of Vedith because Sick is lurking. All of these votes are because people aren’t posting and it ended up on AGar at D1. He’s consistent on that which I like, but also we have had a good handful of people lurking so it can be something he can hide behind. Null read on A50.

Podo

- Has been on Titus for most of the game for the fake claiming and states his case on Agar on 2459. I think the key is his second line saying since people aren’t going to lynch obvscum, he’s going to stick with Agar. He repeats this reasoning on 2495 saying he’s voting AGar due to AGar’s Vedith vote. I’d normally write this off aside as a valid reason for his vote, but I look at 2709 after the hammer he’s clearly targeting the Vedith wagon. Expresses the same anger after the hammer (without knowing Vedith was scum) as Zach did. The difference is, Podo never voted for Vedith. Because he was scum? Because he truly believed Vedith was town? Who knows. I don’t have a solid read on Podo’s actions as I can see it go either way. Null read.

implosion

- Definitely has a history of following, which really concerns me. In just D1: Transcend and implosion vote. 272, 276, and 277 — Following a Titus wagon, 465. Also note 885 — a D1 Mirhawk wagon, 647. Votes PV for lurking and states it here 2050. Something else that I see is post 2293, actually starts a mini Vedith wagon. Posts 2294 and 2295 were Titus and Dunn votes on Vedith as well. Two hours later in 2508, he unvotes and goes to Agar because he prefers him to Vedith. The Agar vote change was scummy, but I also question if the immediate votes on Vedith at that time scared him and went to the new wagon. Of course then saying he’s willing to compromise on Vedith. Hmm, are they partners?

As far as D2 is concerned, implosion still follows votes (Mirhawk for example). When he does start a mini Vedith wagon in D1, he finds a way to get off it to hop on another popular wagon. I think the voting pattern throughout the game is scummy behavior. I think implosion and Vedith are buddies. He gets my vote.

Vote: implosion

[Airick10]

Vote: Mirhawk

Would also be for lynching beeboy.

I'm curious, why beeboy? He did claim miller, do you not believe the claim? What makes him scum to you?

[Airick10]

If I count right, Mirhawk is at L-1. shannon, implosion, Boem, A50, PV, Dunn, Varsoon, Transcend

I'm not against lynching Mirhawk, but I just wish we had information going into D3 on why people are voting for him. Almost every vote is pretty empty and wagon hopping.

[Airick10]

I'm waiting for Mirhawk to show up and explain his vote on shannon along with Vedith and to say more about his Vedith townread. Pointing out that Vedith softed a PR is also shady. There was also

some

shade on Mirhawk D1 if I remember correctly.

Agree with this and Mirhawk doesn't address it citing needing more time. My only suspicion is that vote on shannon with Vedith. I'd like to hear that addressed.

[Airick10]

Correction, he's at L-2. Boem is now voting implosion.

[Airick10]

Crap, okay... L-3. Transcend is voting implosion too. Okay, GIF I'll stop trying to do your job because clearly I'm not cut out for it! haha

[Airick10]

Okay reading back the posts of the day. Much of it seems like useless bickering. So if you are actually counting post 3329, I'm saying no to both. I've had a town read on Dunn and Titus since mid D1. Plus, I have no interest lynching Wake. I feel strongly that all three are town.

EVERYBODY is already voting multiple times within a few hours.

No, between two and four players are.

A large number of players are just lurking, including the person you're intending to target. I'll help you out here.

VOTE: PeregrineV

This is where the game is now. The day is full of the talkers talking and voting on the lurkers lurking. I'd love to hear more from Performer, PV, and Mirhawk. I understand the voting reasons on the lurkers, but I fear if we do lynch one of them that we won't have a whole lot of information for D3. Sure, the NK will get us some information, but that didn't give us much here today in D2. Didn't Performer ask for a replacement? I thought I saw that.

[Airick10]

I'm open to lynching Performer. His D1 voting actions make me suspicious of him. Why was Vedith not in his lynch pool, then sneaks in an early vote on Vedith and keeps it there? Bussing Vedith is entirely possible. I read scum actions.

I'm not voting for Performer just yet in hopes that we are able to get anything else out of him or any word on a replacement. Again, I don't like lynching someone that doesn't give us much info to work with on D3. I'm going to be out the next few hours and read up. If I still get silence from anything Performer or news on a replacement, I'll vote him.

[Airick10]

It's good to see a replacement request be official. I'm going back and forth on this. I'm up for a Performer lynch, but would like to get some answers from the replacement. But really, what are we really expecting the replacement to really say after a 139 page game?

I'd also like to hear from Mirhawk and PV.

[Airick10]

Ok, I'll switch over to Performer. Let's learn a lesson from D1. Know where the hammer is and let's try and get something out of Performer, a replacement, Mirhawk, or PV.

Unvote

Vote: Performer

[Airick10]

Welcome to the game Kraska and kudos for all the reading up you've done!

To comment on a few things.
- Really guys? Hangman? No wonder this is a 150 page game.
- Regarding AGar and Implosion. I think they both make good points defending and arguing against Performer. For example, I DO find a non-lynch vote to be a scummove especially on post 1130. Non-lynch votes that far into a game should really be flagged. It is in the town's best interest to lynch someone. As far as Implosion's point -> AGar implies what he calls 'active lurking'. He points out posts 1024 and 1025. The problem is that Performer posts six times in a span of an hour and continues throughout that day if you look at the timestamps. I'm not looking at content, because Agar wasn't looking at content. Agar's point is false here. True, Performer hasn't been an active poster throughout the game, but I would not charge him for 'active lurking'. I do think there's enough examples Agar posts that can be looked on as scummy behavior to merit suspicion, but there are faults.

So I'm happy to have heard from Performer's replacement. I am suspicious not so much over timeframes of posting and use of words, but suspicious on the voting moves. However, I really like Kraska's posts in this game.

Unvote

A few reasons
- Kraska isn't defending Performer's actions. In some cases, she's understanding the town's reads on Performer. It's quite easy to come in and be in defense mode. She's actively digging into Agar's case along with implosion. One may say, attacking Agar IS defending. No, the difference is she has not defended Performer's posts or votes and tried to interpret why he said or did the things he did. She is looking at someone else's case on Performer. There's a difference here. I'd be much more suspicious if she tried to defend why he voted one way or another.

- Here's a big one for me. She hasn't claimed.
She comes into this game and see she's at L-2 knowing the town is playing hangman just waiting for her to claim a power role to save her life. I believe scum would immediately claim knowing one scum is already dead and try and divert anything she can away from that lynch. Kraska not only has remained silent on her role, she's actively giving reads and looking for scum. Big time town move as far as I'm concerned.

I only have one issue with Kraska

i'll vote AGar or mirhawk today
i want to see what AGar and those sheeping him have to say about my post and implosion's defense of performer
noone's allowed to keep their vote on me before they state why they're keeping it
VOTE: mirhawk for now

First of all, people aren't going to tell you why their vote is kept. Just get ready for that. Worthless statement.
Second, you've mentioned Agar's case a number of times that I can take that as a reason to vote him. But why the vote on Mirhawk? Other then he's on your scum read list, can you explain why? This appears like another vote on Mirhawk with no explanation. I like that you're hunting Agar, but not really hunting Mirhawk.

[Airick10]

I'm 100% certain that don't lynch me until I read the game is not alignment indicative. Nor is refusing to claim for the same reason. For what reason would you attribute this behavior to town?

Refusing to claim is very town in my eyes. My reason is posted in 3729. She's not desperate. Scum is desperate.

Dunn why are you against a Kraska lynch today. What specifically in her demeanor made you think she was a bad lynch?

Mirhawk - why are you against a Kraska lynch? Why are you asking Dunn? Last time I checked, your vote is on Dunn.... not Kraska.

[Airick10]

I've seen scum not claim at L-1 twice

Of course in that game we lynched the town bp after he did not claim and selfvoted so....

Sure, but were they replacements at L1 or L2? I haven't seen that before.

[Airick10]

You fail to see how scum replacing in at L1 or L2 wouldn't claim a town PR immediately? One scum is already off the board. The town didn't hammer Performer because they are awaiting this claim. You don't think scum would claim immediately to save their hide?

[Airick10]

You fail to see how scum replacing in at L1 or L2 wouldn't claim a town PR immediately? One scum is already off the board. The town didn't hammer Performer because they are awaiting this claim. You don't think scum would claim immediately to save their hide?

Well the fact that she still hasn't claimed and we still haven't hammered her leads me to believe it was never the general intention of most of you to hammer Performer. Look at all the shit that's happened and now that slot is going to dodge rope.

I think the magical emergence of Mirhawk saved any momentum to lynch Performer/Kraska. Attention was drawn off.

Plus, why do you think we (well, at least me) wanted to hear from the replacement in the first place? Was/Is there a thing she could say that would convince you she is not scum? If you don't bother to even listen, how are you contributing to the town then? I think put in the position she was put into, her actions (not claiming) are very pro-town. You look at it as a missed opportunity. I look at it as viewing a pro-town move as it is, and not lynching that. Let's say she does claim. Are you going to view that as a shitty claim as you did Vedith?

[Airick10]

Mirhawk( The wagon that's NOT you. Good detective work!)

This, I agree with

[Airick10]

@Airick

You do realize that refusing to claim, KNOWING that Varsoon had said "Don't lynch anyone without a claim because I can ~confirm~ people!" made that an implicitly pro-scum motive? No one was going to wildly hammer or speed up to a lynch with that, so by coming in and not claiming, she knew she stood to gain time to cop up a half-reasonable defense rather than claiming, Varsoon going "Lol nope." and her dying.

I disagree. You assume she knew about what Varsoon has claimed. I bet as a replacement, the first thing she noticed was that she was at L1 or L2. How is she to know a hammer wasn't going to come down at any minute? The recent posts there were saying we are waiting for you to claim before we hammer you. I absolutely believe if she was scum, she would have claimed immediately. I don't think scum would 'disobey' the town at a L1/L2 position at risk of being lynched.

So you're attacking her not claiming because it gives her time to defend herself? Personally, when I said I wanted to hear from Performer's replacement, I meant it.

[Airick10]

I think the magical emergence of Mirhawk saved any momentum to lynch Performer/Kraska. Attention was drawn off.

Do you think I did this intentionally?

Actually, no I don't. You've been prodded to talk throughout the D2. You found time to talk, and away you went. There's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't cover the fact that in my opinion, you posting at that time did distract the Performer wagon.

If I had subbed into a game where I was being asked to claim and there were 11 days left I would tell people to get bent until I figured out what was going on too. Any alignment, that is absolutely what I would do.

I'm undecided on Kraska. I'm maybe scumreading her a bit now that she's talked a bit, but that might be because I'm annoyed by the fact that she's targeting me to pull heat off herself. On the other hand I could understand this coming from a townie, she subbed into the game and she was under heavy fire so the first thing she did was attack the person who made the most effective case on her and jump on the nearest counterwagon. It's survivalistic as fuck, but I get why she would do it.

Dunn has no reason to suddenly townread Kraska, nobody else seemed to be interested in pointing that out. Dunns done a lot of shady shit this game, but despite that a fairly vocal portion of the town think that he's town. I figure if I keep calling him on shit sooner or later they'll get it.

Any alignment? Really? I believe a pro-town role would do that much more likely then scum. Keep in mind, scum has already lost one player. They don't want to lose two. If you were scum in that situation, you'd tell the town who has you at L1 to get bent? Personally, I think a pro-town person would do that much more then scum would.

I do agree with your statement on Kraska as you do seem like an easy target to get some heat thrown off her. She gave some okay reasons, but I still don't quite buy why she's voting you and not Agar at this point.

[Airick10]

Wake, I don't understand your POE. Listed players all voted Vedith and the other one claimed jailkeeper. I think you listed 5/6 or 6/6 towns there.

I understand this point, but I don't believe everyone voting for Vedith was town. I agree with Titus that the one wildcard in there is PV. From the posts he's posted in D2, none of them have been relevant or beneficial to the current game. Example:

It tells me podoq is town, which means I won't vote him. And maybe Wake is town, if he is working up his posts in a PT but not the scum PT. Unless they don't have daytalk.

So , I'm scumhunting by finding town to not-lynch.

What else do you want?

I want you to actually scumhunt as you say you are. I sure don't see it.

@airick why not both? I'm going to pressure both
Mirhawk is in a muddier situation so if we're wrong about him and he's town then he needs to acquit himself, this one's more pressing

It can be both, but Mirhawk appears to be a bit more opportunistic now. I still don't get Mirhawk's vote on Dunn, it seemed desperate then and he's just milking it now. But if Agar is on top of your list, I'd expect to see a little more pressure on him. I'm curious why PV hasn't really had the same kind of pressure on him.

5) Almost50 got roleblocked >_>

Great point! I didn't think about that.

[Airick10]

See, I don't see Wake as scum. Looking back throughout D1, I could not find a connection between Wake and Vedith. He's stayed consistent against Titus and Dunn (whether you think they are town or not) and I think his POE makes sense if under my belief that someone voting Vedith was scum. I think Wake is town and it appears he's reading that Vedith voting block the same way. Someone in there bussed scum. Now, he is playing off a bit emotional and I don't know if that's just a tactic or what, but I do think he's town.

Regarding PV, at least I'm seeing something out of Mirhawk in D2 (even though it's not ground breaking defense). I haven't seen anything of any substance from PV in D2.

[Airick10]

i cannot fathom any reason that titus would be lynched at all today

VOTE: boem

Why this vote? I can't fathom a reason for boem to be lynched either. Why am I wrong?

[Airick10]

I don't think anyone bussed Vedith.

Taking any and all emotional and word analysis aside, it's statistically likely at least one person bussed Vedith. And my suspicions are much more on the first five voters then the second five voters due to the two-hour blitz hammer.

why were you getting performer lynched then

Agreed

[Airick10]

Transcend, your read on boem is like a roller coaster. What does that mean exactly? "Let's just kill boem or implosion" doesn't really give me a reason to join your cause. Why should I join in with you and vote boem?

[Airick10]

@Airlick, Scum are highly unlikely to bus with the wagon on me failing repeatedly. So I highly doubt the front end has bussers.

We can disagree with this. I find it very unlikely that not one scum had a vote on Vedith.

Also, are you implying that if Performer was around, he would have unvoted and not bussed Vedith?
Using Performer as an example, and why he got my vote in D2 -- Vedith was at L-5 and at no danger of being lynched until the back end blitz occurred... who had time to unvote during that two-hour window? Performer had 8 people on his lynch list, none were Vedith... that same day he voted Vedith with no examples of reasons and never addresses Vedith at all. I'm saying this not as an absolute, but it's reasonable to think scum was one of those 10 who voted Vedith.

[Airick10]

So do you believe Performer/K77 was bussing or not? You're saying you're not tunneling K77... but you did vote for Performer. Which one is it? Did you notice Performer voted for Vedith the night before?

[Airick10]

I've been looking at the Mirhawk case and two things stand out that I simply just can't ignore.
1 - Mirhawk voted shannon on D1, as did Vedith. I keep asking myself if this was just coincidence or is Mirhawk really that stupid to leave his vote on shannon.
2 - Then in D2, he votes for Dunn and never shannon. His whole case on Dunn is simply that he doesn't believe Dunn is the vig. Why not further heat on shannon? You've said multiple times that you think shannon is scum, in fact you voted with Vedith on her. Now you're backing off?

I can see a link with Vedith which concerns me. I don't buy his case on Dunn and it's pretty evident the town isn't buying it either. Even his voted on Dunn seemed somewhat empty. "Because why the hell not" doesn't cut it for me. I'm okay with this lynch.

Vote: Mirhawk

[Airick10]

agar did have a good day 1 though so that's why he's not in the bottom tier

I disagree. I didn't like his Titus to Vedith vote switch at the time. He had a number of votes on him. Of course now we know it looks much better, but I wouldn't say he had a good day 1.

[Airick10]

Transcend, how come I'm suddenly your scumread WITH implosion? That makes no sense to me.
And why are you townreading Mirhawk?

Why exactly are you Scumreading mirhawk?

* D1 vote on shannon with Vedith
* OMGUS vote on Dunnstral today
* he's at L-1 and said nothing so far, possible antispew
* seemed little opportunistic with Performer/kraska wagon
* I don't find him towny

Agree with a lot of this. However, I'd strike out the fact he's at L-1 and hasn't said anything. He hasn't been L-1 for very long. I think it's fair to give it a little bit of time.

[Airick10]

I can confirm that Mirhawk is a doctor.

Varsoon is my favorite.

Do you intend to explain by what logic you're confirming Mirhawk, or should we just move on? I believe you. I'm just asking if you have any more to add. You said you can confirm two players based on their claims, correct?

I'd like to hear this as well. I'd prefer to get some sort of explanation before I unvote.

[Airick10]

odd-night doc isn't likely if we also have a jailkeeper, by the way, how many protective roles do you guys think we have...?

Agree with this. Honestly, I really haven't bothered sorting that out in this closed setup. Who knows really...

[Airick10]

I smell a rat.

Lynch either Dunnstral or Titus.

VOTE: Titus

Can we just end this?

Since you say you can confirm Mirhawk is the doc, are you confirming Titus is scum?

[Airick10]

Ok, I'll unvote and see how this plays out. I agree Dunn, I haven't heard of a backup nurse. Maybe he's just saying backup nurse where he should be saying backup doc.

Unvote

[Airick10]

Ok, I'll unvote and see how this plays out. I agree Dunn, I haven't heard of a backup nurse. Maybe he's just saying backup nurse where he should be saying backup doc.

Unvote

Varsoon knows the difference. He means backup nurse.

Ok, have you seen a backup nurse before? I haven't.

[Airick10]

Ok Varsoon... Got it. I just haven't seen it before so that throws me off.

[Airick10]

because what moderator in their right mind would conceive of the idea of a backup nurse without a nurse

if they were going for something like that they would just put a nurse without a doctor or a deputy without a cop. Those are sort of standby choices (along with miller) for moderators looking to add a named townie to a setup. They wouldn't think of it.

Well, we don't KNOW there isn't a deputy (or a Cop with no deputy for that matter). The former become "already done" in response to your suggestion, while the latter becomes "no can do".

Now as for the doctor -and precisely for our case here in this game- I guess the setup needed one. So, I'm MERELY SPECULATING- that either a Cop OR a Deputy is in play and thus the mod got cornered between including a Backup Nurse w/o there being a Nurse or adding a Backup Deputy.

Obviously I'm NOT an expert in setup balancing (I only modded one game that had a fixed standard open setup and still somehow managed to slip up to confirm TWO players roles, so I'll just shut up now!)

This is interesting discussion as this is only speculation it being a closed game, so I don't want to read too much into this and I think it's quite a challenge to try and figure that out blind. But a couple questions.

- Implosion, I agree that adding a backup nurse or deputy without a nurse or deputy is pretty crazy. So are you saying if there is a backup nurse, there can only be a nurse without a doctor? What would a nurse be able to do without a doctor? And with this logic, do you believe Mirhawk's/Varsoon's claims?

- A50, all of this sounds like speculation. Again, an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure how much we are going to get trying to solve GIF's puzzle.

Right now, I'm leaning on voting on PV... I just haven't seen anything of value coming from him here in D2.

[Airick10]

Yes, there's not much info he's giving us. But at the same time, we aren't giving him much of a reason to participate. Actually, we've learned quite a bit here in D2 overall.

[Airick10]

I'd rather go here.

Vote: PeregrineV

- He was on the original 5 voting block on Vedith, the same 5 I suspect somewhere in there is scum that bussed Vedith.
- He hasn't contributed much of anything. Post 3896 illustrates this as implosion asks valid questions and he pretty much dismisses them. For example:

2) give reads on more than two players when you've been playing the game for 140+ pages

I have a few more, but they are not relevant to the current discussion. If and when they are, I'll give them.

I'm still awaiting these reads...

- This goes into reason 3, actively not actually hunting for scum and the vote on Mirhawk - post 3205, certainly looks like following another wagon.

[Airick10]

Zach - Titus is voting PV.... not podo

[Airick10]

Awww, I missed the excitement!

Me too! Damn work keeping me overtime. Anxious to see the flip.

[Airick10]

Quick thoughts -- Mirhawk might be lying. I'm not sure. I wonder why PV didn't claim doctor soon after Mirhawk did. He waited until L-1... 5 or 6 posts in to claim doc. Clearly I'll find that out soon.

[Airick10]

podo - I agree... but this is also a game setup where we have someone claming a backup Nurse of all things. This doesn't look like a usual setup game.

[Airick10]

Ah okay

[Airick10]

My only issue with all the "protectives" is that there was only one kill last night.

I wonder why that's an issue. If we have all these protectives and a JK, I'm kind of surprised anyone was killed last night.

[Airick10]

Assuming he's actually fired shots the first two nights.

[Airick10]

varsoon is nearly conf town unless there's like a scum doctor which is probably not possible since there was a commuter.

because my report d1 says that he was "visited".

so until any town role claims a visit on varsoon, i'm clearing him.

We should mass claim

Why? A lot of claims in this game have been lies anyway
The D1 fake mason fiasco
Dunn as a X-shot vig. Who knows how many shots
Mirhawk has a doc
Wake as a bomb

You even say yourself that nothing makes you cleared as miller. A mass claim is going to provide more information for scum. I highly disagree in doing this.

btw - Happy Birthday Kraska

[Airick10]

implosion is highly unlikely to be scum after yesterday

How is that exactly? implosion never voted for Mirhawk yesterday. Everyone who was there saw the slip. implosion even calls it out, but never votes?

[Airick10]

You mean the first unvote on Mirhawk at L-1 during D2. Mirhawk claimed doc, it's not unusual for anyone to unvote in that situaiton. If implosion was very highly likely town, wouldn't he have voted Mirhawk after an obvious slip? I'm not saying implosion is absolute scum, but to say he's very likely town because of that is illogical.

[Airick10]

The whole reason is to lynch scum, correct? If we found obvious scum, why not vote for it?

[Airick10]

agar: convoluted read blown out of proportion to give the impression that he's contributing. has not bothered sorting out the players he had as null or scum. left his options open the entire game bc he criticised almost everyone's reads. mellowed on titus suddenly and without explanation even though he was attacking her earlier. hmm and other stuff i cant remember atm

Defended Mirhawk throughout D2 as well

[Airick10]

So what exactly is the case on me again here?

[Airick10]

Zach is on top of my list. Someone bussed Vedith D1 and as I said in D2 I did not like Zach's reactions to the Vedith wagon. Plus, he was pretty defensive of Mirhawk throughout D2.

[Airick10]

That I'm unsure of. My candidates come down to AGar and beeboy. I have null reads on you and A50. Kraska is claiming a neutral role and I didn't like implosions voting patterns in D1, but I think he's brought good value to the game since then and doesn't seem to be sheeping nearly as much. I'm confident you are town, shannon, Varsoon (although the backup nurse thing still makes me scratch my head), and Transcend.

[Airick10]

To address implosion's case...

The vote on this wagon that I want to scrutinize the most is definitely Airick's. I'd wager either Airick alone or no scum on the wagon, with a very unlikely off chance of shannon.

In fact looking back I really think Mirhawk scum might paint Airick as scum quite well. The context of his vote is very interesting. He unvotes from the kraska wagon in 3730 and does not re-vote anywhere until he eventually votes mirhawk. Between then, with regards to Mirhawk:

Are you criticizing the fact that I didn't vote right away? I usually don't vote all that quickly. Even today, I haven't voted yet.

-he directs a question to Mirhawk (not really important)
-he cites the emergence of the Mirhawk wagon as having taken momentum away from kraska
-some conversation in 3775, but no real speculation on Mirhawk's alignment here
-the third paragraph of 3962 in which he questions kraska's pushing Mirhawk over agar, and questions why peregrine hasn't had pressure on him like Mirhawk has
-3965 in which he again compares mirhawk to peregrine, stating that mirhawk has done more in the day and implying that peregrine is a better candidate for pressure due to that
-4052 where he suddenly joins the Mirhawk wagon. This action is in no way, IMO, telegraphed by his previous posts - the opinion that Mirhawk is a good wagon simply appears out of thin air. He gives reasons, but as far as i can tell those reasons ultimately existed at the start of the Mirhawk wagon as well.

Throughout D2 I had a pretty null read on Mirhawk and I said this in numerous posts. I also questioned him voting on shannon 3221 with Vedith and questioned the random, ridiculous vote he had on Dunn. Throughout the game, I'm looking for voting patterns and I saw no reason for Mirhawk, not only to vote Dunn... but to keep the vote on Dunn.

The town was playing hangman awaiting Kraska to read the game. When Mirhawk emerged, conversation got going and suddenly the wait on Kraska was over. That happened. No, I don't believe Mirhawk did that on purpose, but you question that I cited that. And yes, that happened.

I don't know where you're going with post 3775

Regarding 3962, I questioned how it appeared clear as day that AGar was Kraska's top scum read. Why the vote on Mirhawk? I do call votes into question. It's a big reason I voted for Performer in D2. Vedith was no where near his scum list, yet he voted Vedith. Why? As asking Mirhawk, why the vote on Dunn? I read Kraska has town when she did not claim as a replacement at L-1. That's why I didn't vote for her right then. I thought she was town.

Regarding 3965, I was getting frustrated by PV's lack of involvement because most the votes that I recall on Mirhawk was because he was lurking. I voted on Mirhawk because I saw a connection with Vedith in D1 and I didn't like his Dunn vote. PV wasn't saying anything in D2 that contributed to the town.

Regarding 4051, Again I voted on Mirhawk because of those two reasons. I said that throughout D2 and said it again when I voted him. Where are you getting the opinion that I came up with that out of thin air?

And here's why that paints Airick as scum:

he should have seen those reasons when the Mirhawk wagon was fledgling. Take a look at the vote count right after he unvoted from the kraska wagon:

kraska77 (5): AGar, Titus, Zackstralkita, shannon, Wake88
implosion (3): beeboy, Varsoon, Transcend
Mirhawk (5): implosion, PeregrineV, Dunnstral, Boem_u_dusi, kraska77
Dunnstral (1): Mirhawk
PeregrineV (2): pobodoq, Almost50

Not Voting: Airick10

Now, if I'm a townie, this vote count screams to me "I need to focus on sorting kraska, mirhawk and maybe implosion and peregrine." And yet that sorting of mirhawk, using information that

was available at this time

, was delayed until the mirhawk wagon was starting to erupt as the primary wagon! It just reeks of scum who saw that a wagon on their buddy was going to come to the fore, saw that no scum were on it, and felt like there should be at least one busser. As a result, Airick-scum comes up with this Mirhawk scumread out of nowhere, when Airick-town would have evaluated the same information and came to the same conclusion earlier.

I still need to look more at Airick's reaction when he believed that Mirhawk was at L-1 earlier in the game (which on first glance also looks somewhat scummy? He gives the noncommittal "i'm not against the lynch but i wish voters on the wagon would give more information"). Etc.

What I'm wondering is why are you singling me out of the voting block on Mirhawk then? My biggest criticisms of people voting him early on is that there are votes with no reasons (besides lurking) behind it. You're implying that I came up with my reasons out of no where. I saw very few posts about voting patterns in D1. Who else voted Mirhawk because his vote was where Vedith's in D1? I think Kraska also voted Mirhawk for the Dunn vote. I saw very few votes that stated either of those reasons in D2. I was not satisfied with Mirhawk's answer to the Dunn vote and I saw a connection to Vedith (which I was right about) and voted him.

I understand your reasoning and where you're going here, but you've got the wrong person.

[Airick10]

That I'm unsure of. My candidates come down to AGar and beeboy.

I have null reads on you

and A50. Kraska is claiming a neutral role and I didn't like implosions voting patterns in D1, but I think he's brought good value to the game since then and doesn't seem to be sheeping nearly as much.

I'm confident you are town

, shannon, Varsoon (although the backup nurse thing still makes me scratch my head), and Transcend.

So am I a null read or townread?

Town read

[Airick10]

^scumclaim, yippee!!

Umm no...?

[Airick10]

Did you even bother to read what implosion or I had to say? This sure seems like an easy wagon for you.

Vote: Zachstralkita

[Airick10]

I'm a Vanilla Townie

Zach - That's not the only lie you've said in this game.

[Airick10]

Will be afk for about 30 minutes

[Airick10]

Claiming VT wasn't hard to do, but I don't see how it matters to you guys at this point. With all the fake claims in the game, any PR role I'd claim would be scrutinized, which I wouldn't blame you for.

[Airick10]

Except if you were actually a PR you wouldn't have to care about being scrutinized because that would be your actual role.

If you were actually a VT you wouldn't be following this train of thought.

I don't care about being scrutinized. I fail to see much of a difference in my claimed role unless I lie to you guys and say I'm a PR, which I'm not. It was asked and you got your answer. Are you going to actually present some sort of case for me? Or continue to try and twist my words, further defend Mirhawk, and pretend you weren't surprised and upset that Vedith got voted out the way he did?

[Airick10]

Again Zach, what is your case? I'll be out the next few hours and will try and get back on later.

[Airick10]

Did you even bother to read what implosion or I had to say? This sure seems like an easy wagon for you.

Vote: Zachstralkita

I thought you had townreads on most people except for me and A50. Now you do this.

Too ez.

I said Zach was my top scum read earlier today (before this vote). 5132. And beeboy and you are right behind. Did I say you were a townread of mine at all in this game?

Airick has jumped on every opportunistic play he could.
-Shit wagon on me Day 1? Check. (Even claimed I was following a hot wagon in the same post he told me I was switching off a bigger wagon to a smaller one, when he jumped on my rapidly growing wagon).
-The implosion wagon Day 2? Yep, he was there, even though that was ill-fated.
-3252, he tries to pump the brakes on the Mirhawk wagon - the one he has since accused me of hard-defending - even though it's not actually at L-1, he posts with some concern like it is, hemming and hawing.
-He jumps onto performer, and then jumps back off when Kraska comes in because "not claiming was pro-town." but STILL tries to divert kraska off the mirhawk wagon and onto me.
- 4051/4052 (fucking post numbers), he finally resigns himself to the bus. But continues to try and leave outlets for when the wagon crumbles with a claim. As SOON as he gets a chance to get off of this wagon, he bails.
- Ignoring Day 3 because that shit happened so quick, I missed it too.
- Day 4, deflects onto me with the above quote. Then as soon as Dunn tries to push Zach scum, he latches on.

- Shit wagon? I was the first vote on you in D1. I didn't follow a wagon on you. You're vote on Vedith was a scummy vote (even though Vedith was scum). I voted and kept my vote on you throughout D1.

- implosion wagon... I was the second vote after Transcend. I outlined my reasoning on implosion on 3221. I didn't see as much sheeping and I thought he put in valid posts in D2. I have better reads of him now. It's called scum hunting. I also had suspicions on the Vedith votes on Performer and Zach.

- 3252.... Considering what happened in D1 (fast hammer) and we got no information from Mirhawk, I found it very dangerous to lynch him and get no information coming out of it. Note, after 3253... I also posted 3254, 3255, and 3256 right after finding that I simply can't count votes. Is warning the town about a fast lynch pumping the brakes on his wagon? I mistakenly miscounted votes and warned the town to give Mirhawk some time to defend himself.

- I still do believe her not claiming was pro-town. That's my opinion and I unvoted because of it. We can disagree on that. I challenged Kraska on why the Mirhawk vote because she clearly was looking at you as her top scum target. I think that's a reasonable question to ask.

- 4052... I listed my reasons for voting Mirhawk. I was suspicious about his vote along side Vedith and I didn't like his vote on Dunn. I said this multiple times in D1. My problem with the Mirhawk wagon was that it was full of a bunch of voters who didn't give any reasons to voting him. I laid out my reasons because I was suspicious and I did not get a satisfactory answer on his Dunn vote. And yes, I unvoted when he claimed doc AND Varsoon 'confirmed' it from his side.

- Are you really factoring in Day 3?

- On Day 4, you clearly are not reading Day 4. Again, I said Zach was on top of my list. I voted for him, in fact I think I was the first vote on him. How is this latching on?


Zach, are you going to provide a case yourself or just take what Agar said and run with it?

[Airick10]

I like how anytime I ask a question or find something I find suspicious about you, that your response is that it’s just shitty. Nice rebuttal. And also, I like how you’re deflecting my question to present a case on me… by asking me to case you. Fine. I’m still awaiting your case and not reading this and calling it shitty isn’t an acceptable response.


Okay I’ll lay out the Vedith situation again. D1. Keep in mind, all of those who have voted Vedith and are dead now have been confirmed town. I do believe someone on the Vedith wagon was scum. At least one… and it’s most likely that one was on the original voting list (not the last 5 voting two hour block).

First off, you never really present a case on Vedith, you are just voting.

I'm not moving my vote off of Vedith, Dunn can do what he wants.

This isn’t going to last long

Vedith soft claims and you unvote and switch to Performer. Even with a soft claim, that’s an instant reaction and I’m fine with that.
However you vote for Vedith again. What happened to the soft claim? That doesn't matter anymore?

Here’s the quote that makes me question you

....I was one of the original proprietors of this wagon..... I have nothing to do with any of this you all should feel bad

Dunn hammers and this is your first vote afterwards. Vedith never got a chance to claim. But for someone who already revoted him after you unvoted, I would think someone who has been hoping to get Vedith lynch the whole D1 be happy that the town agreed with him? No, you’re claiming innocence and I read this as… hmm, not part of the gameplan.

———————————————

Also in D2, you had Titus in your back pocket. She made it known multiple times that whoever you voted for, she would. That sure is a handy weapon to have as your vote counts as two. This is your vote on PV. As you can see, it is analytical and you make some valid points on why PV should be lynched.

Fuck it

VOTE: PeregrineV

For the record, I voted PV too. But I note the original 5 voting block on Vedith (as with you) and when he did post in D2, there was nothing of substance. We both made a mistake voting out the doc. But I wish you would have had a better reason then ‘fuck it’.


Can you tell me about post 2936? You mention Performer, PV, and Mirhawk as your certain willing to lynch D2s. Taking this quote — This tells me that you in fact do suspect Mirhawk.

So you think we're headed in wrong direction with his lynch? What's the alternative?
My lynch pool:
any of the fake claimers
trans
a50
sickofit
possibly Mirhawk

I wanted to include Airick, but he has recently returned this week with some alright input.

Vedith was not in this lynch pool at that point in time. It's also laughable almost all of those names were townreads of mine save for Mirhawk alone.

You also claim Mirhawk is the closest thing to a non-bullshit lynch choice out of Lapsa/Mirhawk/A50 for a possible lynch pool in 3116

However, you happen to have a change in heart.. The Mirhawk wagon is forming. In 3393 You tell Titus that you’re out of a Mirhawk lynch.

Why can't I recall anyone defending Mirhawk? Isn't this a fucking red flag? Come on, guys.

You ended up voting for Kraska. So regarding Mirhawk, I thought he was one you wanted to lynch in D2. What happened? You didn’t want to vote your partner because you already bussed one already?

————————————————————

Considering this… the fake masons fiasco (admittedly lied), still refusing to actually make a case on people he votes, I don’t see pro-town behavior and certainly see suspicious links to both Vedith and Mirhawk. Zach has my vote in D4.

[Airick10]

Um, because he claimed IC to fuck with us like a scumbag. I don't know people's alignments so I have to factor in room for error. I'm pleased that my original decision was right though

This was your response in D2. You already acknowledged his soft claim, which could have been anything. Thus, you unvoted. So yes, the claim concerned you. But you revoted. Revoting dismisses your concern on his claim because that puts him that much closer to a lynch before he had a chance to claim.

From an emotional standpoint, your reaction to the IC would be fine. But it doesn't match up to the voting pattern. I guarantee if Vedith did that soft claim when he was L3, 2, or 1... You would not have voted him again wanting to see what his claim was.

[Airick10]

I'll explain Vedith again. The son of a bitch claimed IC. What sick depraved fucker trolls in twilight? That's almost on the same level as being a sarcastic asshole all the time and never really giving reasons for actions, or... I dunno, fakeclaiming masons. What am I saying, it's not like any of this stuff happens.

I treated that lynch like scumbags treat group projects in high school: if it fucks up I want no part of it, but if it goes well you bet your ass it's all because of me.

Too bad. Your actions tell the story. If he came out as doc and you had one vote that lynched him, deal with it. What sick depraved fucker trolls in twilight? Who cares, stick to the game. You're defense is that you were emotional. Can you provide anything of analytical value to the game?

Are you saying there would be no Vedith wagon if it wasn't for you? Really? As far as Performer, you didn't get your wish and Kraska escaped the rope. Is that why I'm on your scum list? Because I let Kraska go?

Again.... Since you haven't answered this, why the change in heart on Mirhawk? At the beginning of D2 you were all about lynching him. Why didn't you finish the job?

[Airick10]

Did you even bother to read what implosion or I had to say? This sure seems like an easy wagon for you.

Vote: Zachstralkita

Since you need to me tell you I think you're scum for some reason...

Again... Can you present YOUR case on me?

[Airick10]

I think we really just need to make a single post that contains all the day/night kills and who claimed them and who claimed to have defended or jailkept or whatever. The answer we're looking for will be in there, I think. Unless scum are really really good we're going to find an inconsistency or something that was later proven by a town flip. I'll have a go at this tonight if no one else has by then. Only a few hundred pages to look through, how long can it take?

Good idea, this would be useful.

[Airick10]

You wanted Performer. Fine. But throughout the beginning of D2, you have numerous posts suggesting you want to lynch Mirhawk (and Performer). When the Performer/Kraska wagon died down, why didn't you vote Mirhawk? You voted PV on a wagon. Why did Mirhawk slide?

Your defense of Mirhawk claiming doc is irrelevent. You were against voting Mirhawk before he claimed doc. He was at L1 before he claimed. Why didn't you hammer? Because you're partners. Based on earlier D2 posts, the Zach then would have loved the chance to do it.

And yes I'm fully aware you don't give a shit about any of this. Solid rebuttal to a case made on you. In the mean time, I'm calling it a night.

[Airick10]

Sweet!! Way to pull it off A50! Crazy game

Page 232 was pretty funny

[Airick10]

Well played. Fun game to play and watch. The town did really well in early game (kudos to Zach, great reads). That Vedith wagon was a hard pill to swallow. I was shocked to see 5 votes w/ hammer when I woke up that next day and none of us were on that wagon. On the other side, I completely slept through the day Mirhawk was lynched. Frustrating... as I wanted to plant a vote on him immediately.

A50, again... great job! After I flipped Mafia JK, I thought it was going to be a quick game. Way to rebound and pull it through!