Mini 499: Just Your typical Mafia Game GAME OVER!!!!!!!!


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Post Post #775 (ISO) » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:14 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

Happy Birthday Jordan!

Thanks for the warm welcome town, I was hoping to have my reread finished by daybreak, but I'm not quite done.

I'm not entirely convinced from the night scene that we've got both an SK and a Vig, but there's really no harm in assuming that for now.

I'll have some insight within 24 hours.

Mod Edit


Thanks HH


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cicero- 1 (Skruffs)



Not Voting- 8 (ChocolateAttack, cicero, HackerHuck, pwayne66, shaka!!, Skruffs, somestrangeflea, theopor_COD, White)

5 to lynch
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Post Post #776 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:38 am

Post by Skruffs »

Interesting review, theo. Thanks!
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Post Post #777 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:53 am

Post by theopor_COD »

Guys I have a few issues accessing the site, hence posting will be sporadic. Sorry.
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Post Post #778 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:26 am

Post by Skruffs »

Hh, why are you doubtful about tHe existance of an sk? Do you think the stab wounds and bullet holes came from the same source?
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Post Post #779 (ISO) » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:20 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

OK, I'm a little late and I'm going to have to beg for apologies again. I've got a fair amount of notes I want to put together and I am more than a little tired at the moment.

I'll give my thoughts on the night kills now and my scum list tomorrow.

First, I find Gorgon to be a rather odd vig kill. Most people with vocal opinions on him found him to be town, with only a couple of people thinking him to be scummy (Jester/skitzer are in that group). That leaves us with a vig who wasn't very careful, or an SK. Vig plus backup also seems a bit much, but not unbelievable. I also find that Daedalus would not make a good target for scum, but Jester looked like a semi-strong town player - I did not see any power role tells from him. I think that SK typically will not be too particular about who they want to kill (mafia/town) but would be interested in keeping scummy looking people alive and killing people who look pro-town. The flavor does seem to indicate two different killers, but I'm not entirely sure of the logic behind the targets. I guess with the number of relative newbies here, that might explain it a bit.
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Post Post #780 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:30 am

Post by ChocolateAttack »

If we assume that the 2 nk were from an sk and a vig, should there be a third body that was kill by the mafia?
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Post Post #781 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:58 am

Post by cicero »

ChocolateAttack wrote:If we assume that the 2 nk were from an sk and a vig, should there be a third body that was kill by the mafia?
No. Because two Nightkillers targetted Jester. That's why he is listed as having been shot and stabbed.

Normally the stabbing represents a serial killer attack. A vigilante normally shoots. We can assume that the mafia did not shoot gorgon since he as mafia. Therefore we assume that the vigilante shot gorgon.

We therefore deduce that the Mafia shot Jester and the serial killer stabbed him.

It is always possible that the mod has mixed things up and that this is not how things went down. But this is by far the most probable conclusion we can reach about the evenings activities.
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Post Post #782 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:48 am

Post by cicero »

Speaking of Jester, here's his greatest hits. He wasn't in here long. He got whacked AND serial killed. So I think it is reasonable to suggest he was probably on to something (unless you want to get all WIFOMy).

He Votes Flea. Never unvotes him.


Says he'll re-read Gorgon based on White's analysis that Gorgon is just agreeing with stuff.

Doesnt like Theo and White's hurry up. Or Gorgon's.

FOS's AlyG (who turned to Skitzer and turned out to be town). Later he FOS's Skitzer as well.
Jester wrote: And I'm caught up! Yay! I'm currently wary of I'm currently suspicious of White, theo, ChocolateAttack, Gorgon, and SSF (in no particular order). pwayne, your play strikes me as really passive, and it'd be great if you could be a bit more pro-active instead of reacting to the posts of others. Gorgon, ChocolateAttack, you too.
A little later...
jester wrote:And I'm caught up. Still wary of White, theo, and SSF (in no particular order), and now, skitzer. ChocolateAttack made me feel a bit better with his 553. CA, play more! You bring up some good points when you actually play. Gorgon made me feel a bit better, ironically enough, by his consistent suspicion of daedalus (now me).


He refuses my Kakeng wagon. Thinks Kakeng is town.

Doesn't suspect me - and does ask me some probling questions at start.
Doesn't suspect Skruffs.
Doesn't suspect Kakeng/HackerHuck
Doesnt MUCH suspect Chocolate Attack.
He wavers from his Gorgon suspicion.
He doesn't suspect Pwayne but finds him passive.
He doesnt talk about Shaka much.

Draw your own conclusions. I think his death points squarely at Gorgon, Flea, Theo and White as very probable bad guys who felt threatened by Jester's play.

If he had been just shot by Mafia, you could make the argument that he was just a really townie looking guy... but there's a few of those. No No. He got targetted by the Serial Killer too. One or the other or both factions found Jester to be really townie looking (I have suspicions against me so I'm safer to keep alive. Let Skruff get me lynched they'll say) AND a very good detective.

Those are my thoughts in any event.
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Post Post #783 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:54 am

Post by cicero »

Limited access for me this weekend. Out having fun. happy halloween.
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Post Post #784 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:23 pm

Post by pwayne66 »

Not to continue the "chummy" perception there is between cicero and I, but I agree with his conclusions about the mafia, the SK and the Vig.

His conclusion about Jesters are interesting as well

"I think his death points squarely at Gorgon, Flea, Theo and White as very probable bad guys who felt threatened by Jester's play. "

But it really only reminds me: Where the hell is white? 10 days no post. He posted on the Vacation/ Limited Access thread that he will be back by the end of this week, here is hoping we here from him soon, and since I know he will be asking, I'm going to post a scumdar Monday.
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Post Post #785 (ISO) » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:00 pm

Post by shaka!! »

I think that with all the new (potential) evidence that has popped up that my vote on HH is starting to expire.

I'm going to
unvote
because I like what HH has had to say so far.

I think Ciceros conclusion about Jesters death is rather broad, marking 4 players. But remembering that he was shot and stabbed, so he may have hit more than one target (seeing as he was smacked by two different groups of killers).

Pwayne, I would post my scumdar aswell, but I really am having a hard time making one. It's showing blank right now. I think I've been blinded by BM too long and I've most likely missed a lot of other stuff.
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Post Post #786 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 am

Post by cicero »

shaka!! wrote: I think Ciceros conclusion about Jesters death is rather broad, marking 4 players.
But remembering that he was shot and stabbed, so he may have hit more than one target (seeing as he was smacked by two different groups of killers).
Heya Shaka. I don't understand the italicised sentence. I don't know who you are referring to and I dont exactly understand your point. Not arguing with you - I just don't understand. Could you clarify when you get a chance?
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Post Post #787 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 am

Post by HackerHuck »

OK guys, sorry about the delay. I'm getting swamped at work, so it's been a bit of a challenge to put this together. Now that I've got the big reread out of the way, I'll be able to keep up much better.

I'm going to list my top scum right now. Obviously these guys can't all be scum, but the first four are where I'm going to be focusing my attention for now. I've left off my two least likely scum, but I'm not confident about anyone yet to actually try and prevent a lynch.

Scum List:


White: Knowing Gorgon is scum puts White at the top of my list. Gorgon clearly places White as town, mentioning it on two separate occasions. In his scum list post, he even goes so far back to comment on Theo’s early posts, but he completely ignored Orlowskis’s scummy behavior from that time. It’s also interesting to note what Skruffs mentioned about White asking Choco what he felt about Gorgon. Choco Attack omitted Gorgon from his scum list and White seemed to be the only one who picked up on it… Oddly enough, this is the first game where I didn’t have that scummy feeling from White. He just looks like scum from the evidence, not really his behaviour.

Some Strange Flea: Cicero had made some very good points about SSF (I liked 216) and I was hoping for his lynch as I read along. The strategic lurking didn’t bother me too much, but the opportunistic vote on AlyG was the start. Gorgon came out of nowhere at one point to defend SSF, but later on SSF showed up as scum in Gorgon’s list. Out of that scum list, SSF is the only one I could see Gorgon trying to bus. Looking at Gorgon’s interactions with SSF is also somewhat telling. At one point Gorgon chooses to “let SSF off the hook” and then turns around in that same post to ask BM what he thought about Cicero. He also liked to throw around a lot of OMGUS and never really appears to be scum hunting. I really doubt that White and SSF could both be scum. My preference is to lynch White.

Pwayne: This guy is totally lurking in plain sight. Early game gave me a good town feeling, but that started to sour as the day progressed. Posts 456/457 gave some ramblings and then he didn’t really come to any conclusions but listed the top five lurkers as his suspects. This quote stuck out to me - “Gorgon- Despite the slipup when he thought guppy was lynched, I find myself thinking town.” Then he appears in 568 to make a case against SSF and one on Guppy, but then states that Guppy is likely town? I haven’t seen any sign of him hunting scum, instead he seems to enjoy pursuing the lurkers under the guise of hunting scum.

Theopor_COD: I’ve really gone back and forth on Theo. I really didn’t like his change in direction in the lurker hunt. He defended SSF’s lurking and thought it would be better to after Choco and Daedalus (town) instead. He also is the only person that appeared on the early Professor Guppy wagon that I am considering as likely scum (those other three above didn’t). Gorgon did proclaim Theo as town, even going back to an early post to try and support his conclusion. He was on the AlyG wagon and then in post 378 he chose to go after the easy target Professor Guppy (how did this guy not get lynched yesterday?)


Some cautions about my scum list. Obviously all the scum aren’t in this group. Oddly enough, each of these guys were on the AlyG (confirmed town) wagon – with cicero. I cannot fathom a case where all of the scum are on that wagon, so I’m guessing I’ve got no more than two of the four above are scum.


Maybe/Maybe Not:


Skruffs: Well, Guppy was pretty scummy and in looking back at his early wagon, the known scum stayed away at first. Self voting is a slightly scummy tell, but he was new, so I discount it. The Guppy wagon was so close, yet fell apart before it got to a claim. Rather surprising that Guppy’s wagon never resurfaced when many people still mentioned Guppy’s scumminess throughout the day. Skruffs looks pretty bad in his post 738. He definitely should no better than to try and setup a D2 lynch and it doesn’t seem like his normal play. Side note – if Theo’s town, then I’m pretty certain that Skruffs would be scum.

Shaka!!: His case on BM in post 232 seemed to come from nowhere. It’s hard to gauge, since BM is often targeted by both town and scum, but given his persistence with the case I’m leaning toward scummy. Gorgon however, in post 275 makes me feel that Shaka!! Is more likely to be town. Shaka mentions in 362 that Gorgon is the most pro-town player in the game. I would like an explanation of that. Gorgon also points out twice that Shaka!! is town :?

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Post Post #788 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:16 am

Post by shaka!! »

cicero wrote:
shaka!! wrote: I think Ciceros conclusion about Jesters death is rather broad, marking 4 players.
But remembering that he was shot and stabbed, so he may have hit more than one target (seeing as he was smacked by two different groups of killers).
Heya Shaka. I don't understand the italicised sentence. I don't know who you are referring to and I dont exactly understand your point. Not arguing with you - I just don't understand. Could you clarify when you get a chance?
I'm saying that Jester could have found the mafia and the sk/vig, so both of them targeted him at night.
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Post Post #789 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:21 am

Post by shaka!! »

Huck, I believe I posted my explanation in that same post.
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Post Post #790 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:52 am

Post by pwayne66 »

Huck wrote:This quote stuck out to me - “Gorgon- Despite the slipup when he thought guppy was lynched, I find myself thinking town.” Then he appears in 568 to make a case against SSF and one on Guppy, but then states that Guppy is likely town?
Are you saying that my post contradict one another? I don't see how. I thought that Gorgon's reaction to the "lynch" of guppy to be curious. He explained his actions near as he could to my satisfaction, and I found nothing else to suggest that he was scum. I didn't make a case against SSF as to say, well...
pwayne66 in post 568 wrote:The trick here is determining whether SSF in inefficient town or inefficient scum. Either way, we could do worse than lynching SSF. I would urge him to answer some of the questions asked of him by jester.
Likewise I said this of guppy:
Again, agreed 99%. All the above is true, but like SSF, is he bad town or bad scum? I think PG was likely town, as I can't see scum benefiting from his actions. It can be WIFOM, but I didn't sense that PG was clever enough to confuse us in this way.
Which is to say that I think that guppy and SSF are either really crappy town or really crappy scum. I go on to say that I think that guppy was just really crappy town.

If I am missing the contradiction, please let me know.
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Post Post #791 (ISO) » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:03 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

No, I wasn't implying a contradiction there. I found the wording of the first to be interesting. The use of slip-up gives me the impression that you might not be "uninformed".

The second was more of a backward way to fall into a wagon. You waffle a bit on both and just end up saying that SSF wouldn't be a bad wagon. I wouldn't call either of these out on there own, but I'm not really keen on your scum hunting and I think these are reasonable examples of that.
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Post Post #792 (ISO) » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:36 pm

Post by pwayne66 »

Fair enough on both accounts. Poor wording on my account. I've been consistant of my criticism of SSF, and don't feel that I need to justify falling into his wagon. There isn't a waffle as near as I can see. Consider:

[quote ="pwayne"]somestrangeflea- with a little convincing I could lynch this guy [/quote]

[quote = "pwayne"]Lynch flea- An active lurker. Got rope will hang. This guy... [/quote]

[quote = "pwayne"]SSF- has been aggravating. I've not Meta'ed his gamestyle, so I am not sure if this is normal. [/quote]

I don't think that Johnnie Cochran could make the case that I have waffled on this issue. As far as your accusations of ambiguous conclusions and weak scum hunting, didn't you just finish a long post that said basically:

...any of these 6 players might be scum:


You left off you (understandable), CA and Cicero. Why no analysis for them?

Anyway, I would still like to hear from White. I'm going to reread the last couple of pages (lots of theories that require some research...) Expect some content tomorrow.
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Post Post #793 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:26 am

Post by pwayne66 »

White- I was only able to find one instance where Gorgon says that White is town ( I might have missed the other admittadly) and that was somewhere along the lines of "white...I'm thinking town" and was posted more as a response to what orlowsi and HH had done than on white's actions. I admit though; Gorgon does have a peculiar amount of agreeability toward nearly everything white says.
Gorgon's first post following White's entarance into the game states that White has played well as scum in the past.

somestrangeflea- Interesting post from Huck regarding ssf. His case against him seems stronger than his case against white. It's no seceret how I feel.

theopor_COD- I still get a town feeling here. At the very least, I don't see anything pointing to him as scum.

Skruffs- Seemed to nose in on Gorgon right away. Made several mentions that both him and I were scummy and urged that we get more pressure. Despite this puts his first vote (seems to admit that it was a pressure vote to boot) on white. He then puts his vote on Cicero. Two posts later, it was Kakeng. And then Skitzer. During this whole time, the most interesting comments are these:
skruffs wrote:Generally speaking you don't lynch power claims. PEriod.

Explain it, because someone needs to be lynched, and if it has to be Kakeng, even with your town tell, then it has to be.
Vote : Kakeng
skruffs on his vote of a claimed powerrole wrote:I am voting him because I checked the wiki for 'generic optional backup' and could not find that as a normal role. So I think it's a fake claim that shouldn't be in a normal mini.
ChocolateAttack- unvotes AlyG (town) after he gets to 5 votes. Makes alot of contentless posts but sticks to his guns when pressured by me (over his orlaski vote and then white (over his meek scumdar). A quick look at his postings show very few posts and a large amount of them are the "I'll post tomorrow" or "My computer is broke" variety.

HackerHuck- Responded quickly with his reread and gave a geniune and complete take on his perceptions. Battle Mage bugged me, as did Kakeng. Never got a pro-town vibe from them. I was convinced for a short period that BM was scum. Since then I have seen nothing overly scummy aside from some lurking.

cicero- 6 pages of post from him that amount primarily to theory and defenses of his theory. Can't say that I am totally adjusted to his playstyle, but I do sense so sincere curiosity from him.

Vote Skruffs
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Post Post #794 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:49 am

Post by somestrangeflea »

Apologies for recent inactivity. It's been a frantic weekend, and I'm going on an away for a few days. No idea how active I can be when I'm gone, but I'll be back on Friday.

If I need to be replaced, so be it...
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Post Post #795 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:29 am

Post by ChocolateAttack »

Hackerhuck: are suspicious of White and Gorgon are scumpair? if yes, then what about SSF?
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Post Post #796 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:35 am

Post by cicero »

Why has this all died all of a sudden?

Chocolate - your question to Hackerhuck is far from clear. Want to try that again?
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Post Post #797 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:46 am

Post by ChocolateAttack »

HackerHuck wrote:
White: Knowing Gorgon is scum puts White at the top of my list. Gorgon clearly places White as town, mentioning it on two separate occasions. In his scum list post, he even goes so far back to comment on Theo’s early posts, but he completely ignored Orlowskis’s scummy behavior from that time. It’s also interesting to note what Skruffs mentioned about White asking Choco what he felt about Gorgon. Choco Attack omitted Gorgon from his scum list and White seemed to be the only one who picked up on it… Oddly enough, this is the first game where I didn’t have that scummy feeling from White. He just looks like scum from the evidence, not really his behaviour.

Some Strange Flea: Cicero had made some very good points about SSF (I liked 216) and I was hoping for his lynch as I read along. The strategic lurking didn’t bother me too much, but the opportunistic vote on AlyG was the start. Gorgon came out of nowhere at one point to defend SSF, but later on SSF showed up as scum in Gorgon’s list. Out of that scum list, SSF is the only one I could see Gorgon trying to bus. Looking at Gorgon’s interactions with SSF is also somewhat telling. At one point Gorgon chooses to “let SSF off the hook” and then turns around in that same post to ask BM what he thought about Cicero. He also liked to throw around a lot of OMGUS and never really appears to be scum hunting. I really doubt that White and SSF could both be scum. My preference is to lynch White.
I was prefer here on his scumdar. It sound like he suspected White and Gorgon are scum buddy then he also doubted SSF and Gorgon. Why did he vote on White instead of SSF. SSF is worse than White in my perspective, White did contribute and help the town but SSF, he anti-town so why did he chose to lynch White over SSF, beside his evidence of scum pair between Gorgon and SSF is stronger then Gorgon and White.
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Post Post #798 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:05 am

Post by cicero »

ChocolateAttack wrote:
HackerHuck wrote:
White: Knowing Gorgon is scum puts White at the top of my list. Gorgon clearly places White as town, mentioning it on two separate occasions. In his scum list post, he even goes so far back to comment on Theo’s early posts, but he completely ignored Orlowskis’s scummy behavior from that time. It’s also interesting to note what Skruffs mentioned about White asking Choco what he felt about Gorgon. Choco Attack omitted Gorgon from his scum list and White seemed to be the only one who picked up on it… Oddly enough, this is the first game where I didn’t have that scummy feeling from White. He just looks like scum from the evidence, not really his behaviour.

Some Strange Flea: Cicero had made some very good points about SSF (I liked 216) and I was hoping for his lynch as I read along. The strategic lurking didn’t bother me too much, but the opportunistic vote on AlyG was the start. Gorgon came out of nowhere at one point to defend SSF, but later on SSF showed up as scum in Gorgon’s list. Out of that scum list, SSF is the only one I could see Gorgon trying to bus. Looking at Gorgon’s interactions with SSF is also somewhat telling. At one point Gorgon chooses to “let SSF off the hook” and then turns around in that same post to ask BM what he thought about Cicero. He also liked to throw around a lot of OMGUS and never really appears to be scum hunting. I really doubt that White and SSF could both be scum. My preference is to lynch White.
I was prefer here on his scumdar. It sound like he suspected White and Gorgon are scum buddy then he also doubted SSF and Gorgon. Why did he vote on White instead of SSF. SSF is worse than White in my perspective, White did contribute and help the town but SSF, he anti-town so why did he chose to lynch White over SSF, beside his evidence of scum pair between Gorgon and SSF is stronger then Gorgon and White.
Ah! And there we have a very excellent question. Hackerhuck?
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Post Post #799 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:22 am

Post by theopor_COD »

Ok guys just letting you know, I'm having real problems accessing the site and thus finding the time to play. I'm not asking for replacement in my longer drawn out games but don't expect a high frequency of posts because I just haven't the time I had a week or so ago.

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