Newbie 1723 - Game Over!

[Skold]

Why were you townreading Parabola as of this post?

Reading comprehension friend. That is about Vecna.

[Skold]

Reading comprehension Skold, that is about Parabola. It's also almost identical to something I just said about Vecna.

[Skold]

First of all, Vecna liked the TNE vote from Franky. It also qualified that like with saying that the fact Franky's vote was unexplained weakened that like and scum leaving their vote on a partner like that was something that Vecna had seen in the past. It's case on TNE was also a hell of a lot more than her just being under the radar; Vecna picked up on the weird pushing of e and doing absolutely nothing else (which was also something that I disliked), and it also picked up on a lack of townreads. It also criticized the content of TNE's pushes, but you boiled all of that down to "cautious not to act with his wagon" (which, again, wasn't its point) and for being "under the radar". Why?

I'm also pretty skeptical of your reaction to Vecna in general; whereas RB seemed pretty genuinely pissed off at Vecna's behavior and obviously wasn't reading him as town at all, this post reads like you're really really close to believing him, but you're going to lynch him anyways for reasons that I don't really grasp. Could you clear this up for me?

I had previously disregarded her ''weird'' push onto E because tunneling is a mistake townies do make. That leaves me with ''cautious not to act with his wagon'' < which was as (admittedly awkward way) of saying ignores questions and criticism. Also not having townreads is hardly a tell.
As for the thing with Franky - I don't like Vecna attaching theory to it's liking Franky's vote because it allows him a free out to claim that the theory was him saying it applied to Franky. Though I still view Vecna as conftown so the scum-by-association made zero sense upon revisiting. At this point I was still being stupid and thought that scumVecna would actually do this when it makes no sense at all. Assuming a minimum level of competence left me with a much more thought out conclusion.
Overall - yes that Vecna revote was stupid. I stand by everything else I wrote there.

[Skold]

I don't think you're scum, this just doesn't make sense from that kind of motivation to on the spot invent a new kind of silly read in order to push a bad lynch but I don't think this makes a single kind of sense.

Why were you townreading Parabola as of this post?

??? It's in the post? I thought it was too stupid for scum to do. Now however, I realize that that itself is stupid. Unlike Vecna being stupid and sheeplike, this doesn't put Parabola in any kind of hotlight. I do like that Nacho is bringing up older stuff that does have some serious contradictions.

[Skold]

The reason I asked you the first three questions, Skold, is because the distinction between bad town and scum is the same distinction I felt about tne and also e and I was wondering why you didn't have the same concern because I saw similar kinds of play from both slots.

I have literally no idea what this is referring to except for my confusion. Questions again plz?

[Skold]

yes, you do have this arse backwards. i won't deny that this is something that might happen in a very niche case but in an overwhelming majority of players and situations this is not what I'm saying

It's been like 4 pages since that was asked and it's a theory question. Why would you choose to answer this of all things?

[Skold]

his late D1 posts are actually pretty good?????????!?!?!?!

My late D1 posts are a mixture of me shouting at people and nitpicking. So no, no they are not. Not proud of this, but honestly I was just getting pissy. This is possibly the worst townread I have ever received. So thanks but no thanks.
Parabola > E > Franky, Nacho atm. Seems Parabola has only ever posted either ''catchup I swear'' or walls that don't go in depth but cover a lot of topics so it's looks like he is trying. VOTE: Errant Parabola

[Nachomamma8]

Also, for those that keep claiming that these type of reaction tests are bad and anti-town, and can never work - Let me present you the two following links. I know you will not read them, but theyre just meant to make a little point:

http://webdiplomacy.net/forum.php?threa ... 06#1372206 - I hardclaimed a PR role right out of the gates. Mafia tried to lynch me asap, I filter out 2 scum straight away and we end up lynching scum D1.

Maniac's posting in general was scummy as hell; he couldn't fake a genuine thought outside of the you-claim business; literally the only thing that looked even okay from him was his posting made complaining about your claim. You also managed to somehow drag jamiet down from universal townread to scummy scum, claim business gave Ghug a way to hide pretty solidly, and the reactions you should have picked up on (Jamiet and OB's responses specifically) you didn't really lock down until later. I don't understand why you were scumreading Teacon in the way you were, but that was also a flaw of your reaction test; if done correctly, sure, reaction testing can be a pretty effective way to shake up a boring gamestate and make things happen, but it's best done when it's done sparingly.

[Nachomamma8]

Rb - is my only town read.

Only town read?
This seems... excessively paranoid. Got anything else today?

[Nachomamma8]

I decided to reread my yesterday interaction with Skold:

Question:

What I'm curious about is why you don't see that earth has been acting very scummy too?

Answer: None.

My thoughts: The fact that Skold didn't answer this by just saying he did notice it feels like he's ignoring a reference to his scum buddy.

Question:

are you going to pretend you didn't notice until this very moment that Earth haven't been answering ANY questions since beginning of game?

Answer:

Just took a cheeky wee tour of your ISO. None of those were worth answering. Probably slipped into the back of my mind because those weren't questions actually worth bothering with. ''Does RQS have to be scum or town'' - why would anybody waste time with this. Especially after an IC wall on the theory of RQS.

My thoughts:

• Can't understand why my ISO is important. Several people asked TNE questions, and I specifically capsed the word ANY so that Skold understands I'm not only talking about my questions. Skold ignores this and finds a way to not answer the question.
  
• Skold chose the one question that is meant rhetorically as an example for my questions not being worth the time, and frames it in a redundant light when it was a response to the very post that was right before it from TNE, which was TNE's subtle attempt to associate me with E_is_cool when I voted her before him with a bs RVS reason and D1 hasn't even started yet when she made that post.
  
• He also somehow misses the opportunity to comment on the most pointless of my questions, which is a plain question about TNE's age that came out of nowhere.

Is it a coincidence that you only started addressing this after I asked you why you didn't notice earth has been acting scummy?

Answer: None.

My thoughts: He probably ignored this because he has noticed she's been acting scummy and he's an arrogant prick. Or because it's an inconvenient question that he can paint as dumb. Notice that Skold would have motivation to ignore this even if Earth isn't his scum buddy as it would frame him as someone who isn't putting effort into getting reads.

Why did you avoid answering that question yourself when you're going to join earth's wagon for not answering question btw?

Answer:

I could go through all of these but these questions weren't directed at me.

My thoughts: This makes me think slightly that he mistook my reference to him not answering my first question to him not answering the questions I asked TNE, but I quickly realize that would be an incredibly dumb assumption to make because I phrased it as "that question", so there was no possible mistake. This is his second attempt to misrep what I'm saying, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt once more and try to question him on these things. I also don't see why he would miss that I'm pointing out his hippocracy over ignoring questions when he's dissing Earth for exactly the same thing.

Question:

If your opinion is that she isn't acting scummy, why did you ignore my question about that fact instead of criticizing the reasons I have for voting her, which I've also been displaying since the beginning of D1?

Answer:

1. Never said she wasn't scummy, said your case sucked.

My thoughts: I start my sentence with "if" and he assumes I think he said anything clearly... And why is he narrowing down my case against Earth to the only thing that he addressed which is her not answering questions?

Question:

Forget the beginning of D1, why aren't you scumhunting me like your life depends on it right now?

Answer:

2. I am scumreading you because you've shown weird interactions with Vecna (I'll quote below in a second) and because this case is really bad.

My thoughts: He literally answers me asking him why he isn't scumhunting me by confirming that he's scumreading me............................... WTF?!

Question:

And let's suppose for a second that you know for a fact my questions have no value, which you don't btw because only I know why I asked any question, why are you ignoring all the questions earth ignored that aren't in my ISO?

Answer:

3. Because I only read your ISO because I'm not here to dismantle your case on TNE I'm here to decide if it's scummy

My thoughts: I would say Fair enough if I had short term memory, but I don't and I remember that he was criticizing my statement that

she didn't answer anyone's questions

.... and his phrasing sounded like an attempt to frame me as scum, so this answer is another load of convenient horse shit.

Question:

Which part of my posts gave you the impression that I'm only scum reading her for avoiding to answer my own questions?

Answer:

4. Never said that

My thoughts: Then how the hell will you decide if my case is scummy if you don't look at the rest of my case?!!!!!! the horse shit stench is getting stronger.

Question:

And why would you interpret "Does RQS have to be scum or town" as anything other than a rhetorical way of showing the flaw in earth's reasoning about e_is_cool?

Answer:

5. IDK why it's a bad question, it's a bad question. And most of your questions read like they're impossible to be answered because they read like they don't fit in this thread.

My thoughts: Horse Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Question:

Why did you have no issues with earth trying to frame e_is_cool in the beginning by deliberately ignoring the subtleties of everyone's criticism of her read on him? Like seriously, you're the only one mate.

Answer:

6. I do have problems with TNE's argument against e_is_cool. I made my own case, read my ISO or don't even talk about what my stances are.

My thoughts: Ok this one is 100% my bad, but I'm glad I made this mistake because it helped give him an excuse to use the stupid argument again and resulted in this bonus answer.

Bonus answer:

Overall: WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS? WHAT THE ACTUAL CRAP FRANKY? Like seriously, why do you think TNE didn't answer these questions? Because of my post here. I'm not responding to you anymore this is stupid.

My thoughts: Me making a mistake about the reaction to earth voting e_is_cool in the beginning can be put aside for a moment, but why is he getting so worked up over something he could have pointed out as an answer to my very first question? And why is calling that one reference to TNE being wrong and one other vague statement that he's "not liking TNE" a case? Why is he over exploiting my mistake and blowing it out of proportion? And if by any distant chance he's town, why is he acting so chocked that someone he scum read in this very post would be misreping him?

Question:

1) Where are these quotes? And why aren't you pursuing your scum read on me? Is it because I said I'll be revising my read on you?

Answer:

1. Had a look into it and it basically hinges on Vecna being scum. Since upon actually thinking I concluded there is no way scum would do this for at best 2 for 1 me and TNE for himself and only a slight chance of TNE and Vecna both being scum with TNE being the bus to confirm Vecna so working from that assumption is stupid.

Vecna is most likely town

, we'll just have to see if his strat is worth thinking about in future games or is just a gimmick that works occasionally.

My thoughts: I like my explanation better. He was overloading me with horse shit because my questions struck a nerve, and he took my first slip and used it to get me to back down instead of scumreading me for it, and as soon as I backed down I became town in his eyes, because I was always town in his eyes. And why is his vote still on Vecna if he miraculously thinks they are town now?

Question:

2) You state you're scum reading me, and then you react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you? In the same post?!!!

Answer:

2. ''react like there could be no scum motivation behind me misreping you'' I didn't say that. Or act like it. I said ''where are you getting this'' because the questions sucked regardless of alignment. How does saying your questions suck imply I don't think you're scum? Franky's questions are being very surface level and not telling whatsoever. IDK if he's getting want he wants from them but I don't like this behavior.

My thoughts: He did act like it.

VOTE: Skold

I have a lot of catching up to do various places today so won't be diving into this wall right now.
However, I will say that when you're making a case against someone you want to make it in a way where your main point (the most compelling reason why the person you're voting is scum) is able to be parsed fairly easily; it's a good chunk of effort to actually go through your points here and a vast majority of players won't put in the time to do it.

That being said, while I haven't followed up on this post properly, I have read it and anyone who isn't townreading Franky after this post should probably read the post again and fix their reads; remember that Franky already had a pretty large fleshed-out case against mislynch TNE and had absolutely no reason to tilt Skold with a post like this, and that the conviction and frustration demonstrated in this post about how Skold is interacting with him is not something I've ever seen from anyone but exceptionally gifted scum players.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel like we need Nacho and Parabola interacting in real time at some point today before deadline.

I have a feeling your wish will come true today.

[Nachomamma8]

So I spend 2 hours presenting a case against someone and people don't even want to read it....

I don't even know what to think of this. Getting tempted to ask Ircher to replace me.

I read this frustration as town-indignation.

Didn't even catch this on top of the big post.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho you know that question I asked you about why you were ignoring e's Wifom accusation? I'm really sorry, but my notes don't actually make clear the intention behind that question. The only thing that my notes say is basically letting me in the future know that I was actually lying to you about being okay with you ignoring as town. But I don't know why I wasn't okay with it, so let's call it a wash because I can't figure it out going back and that probably means it's not a strong enough feeling to be important.

Why are you town-leaning me?
I felt pretty good about it earlier but I also think that I was viewing the thread pretty negatively based on all of the immediate "you're not doing enough, you're not doing enough" at the start of the day and that probably plays into it; I don't think that my play this game has been revolutionary in any sense of the world or outside of my scum-range so I don't actually understand why you're reading me as town if you're town. If you're scum, I can see you take this type of approach; there's a low chance that I'm going to get mislynched this game barring weird LyLo shenanigans, and you'd know better than most that a weak "he's not doing anything!" push isn't going anywhere.

Vote: Parabola

[Nachomamma8]

I will read into Skold when I read into Franky's big post in the near future; I understand that e is cool seems to be the popular suspect for the day for not really doing anything but I'd like to see him get a chance to breathe/get replaced.

[e_is_cool]

Okay, now that earth and rb are dead and flipped town, I would suspect anyone that pushed for an earth lynch but didn't vote for earth. Also, I know NK analysis is WIFOM, but I kinda find it suspicious that Nacho, an IC, is still alive.

Reading from Venca's first non-sheep post, I see that at first he/she views Skold as neutral, but right after Skold continues to accuse Venca, Venca suddenly wants Skold lynched and his only reason is the following post by Skold:

Right so Vecna likes the unexplained vote on TNE from Franky, claims it was ''just a prank'' and scumreads TNE for being the most cautious to not act with his wagon and for being ''under the radar'' when in one of the most inactive games I have ever played she has been one of the few who give it some activity. If this is town play it may just be the most anti-town town play ever. If you're town Vecna here is what you have done 1. Guarantee your lynch. You are dying today. This is happening. 2. Waste a day for town 3. Discredit all reads you have because regardless of whether they come from a town perspective they would come from a town perspective with no bloody clue. I almost want to believe him. But I don't. These last minute reads, making the worst case possible against TNE and claiming it was a reaction test....no. I just don't buy it.

Vote: Vecna

L-1 N shit. Someone int to hammer this. I'm off for a couple hours don't lynch till I'm back.

And in the four posts that followed, Venca didn't really mention a good reason why the post was scummy. Sure Venca might have done this in previous games with the sheep stuff, but using your own meta is WIFOM.

I continue to see buddying with earth on Skold's part (as of Page 17), and I still think that's scummy, even after earth's flip. Actually, he's half-buddying with earth and half pushing for her lynch.

I kind of think it's my fault TNE swapped to the Vecna wagon cause I was waxing lyrical about a no lynch when we still had plenty time left. Might of spooked her idk.

Here Skold defends earth's vote switch.

Well that post wasn't finished. Bit rude site. Let's try that again
@rb idk if I actually have any scumreads. TNE looks bad for not answering questions (side note to Franky: The real questions not yours) but I have no confidence that she will flip scum.

And now Skold says earth is scummy for not answering questions. Within 1 page or so. Also, Skold is being pretty wishy-washy about earth's lynch, and not knowing if she's scum or not. It's kinda gut, but I think Skold could be scum trying to both push for earth's lynch to get a mislynch and defend earth because he knows earth is town.

Vote: TNE

I'm going to be deliberately ignoring this thread for as long as possible. Hopefully the entire rest of the day. Massive headache (I entirely blame that Franky wall, jesus h christ) so this is in case I don't come back. Also because I might not come back and because I don't want you waiting on a PR claim that isn't coming - I'm a VT.
General advice: That just there was really bad and you shouldn't ever do it but I'm lazy and sick of this thread, and of Franky and of this Vecna reaction test. This whole game is a literary Mecca on how not to play mafia imo.
pedit: THANK YOU. JESUS IF YOU WANTED ME TO REPLY MAKE IT LEGIBLE FUCK SAKE.

Also, even though Skold claimed VT, I find it suspicious that he would claim this early. In the games I've played in, scum usually try to fakeclaim early to gain credibility for the claim.

Will catch up on Day 2 soon. (By soon, I mean any amount of time between 0-3 days. Hopefully less than 1.5 days.)

[Vecna]

Rb - is my only town read.

Only town read?
This seems... excessively paranoid. Got anything else today?

It was excessively justified given how shit everyone was playing on D1. And ive allready done other posts after it where I give new reads.

Also people need to stop only reading someone's ISO. Watching at posts in isolation removes all context and you'll never manage to get a proper view of why someone does something. Half of the questions people have fired in the last 2 pages have already been answered or are super obvious if you just actually read the thread instead of skim through people their ISO just to seem active.

[Vecna]

Vecna, do you prefer to be referred to as "it" or do are you okay with other pronouns?

You can refer to me it as he or anyway you like, I just thought it was pretty funny that you could get called it all the time on this forum so ive been abusing that for my own amusement. People really do refer to you as it though.

Anyways for now nacho has finally started participating so ill remove my grudge vote from him for now. UNVOTE: Nachomamma8

Youre still under suspicion though, Im not quite sure I like all the content of your posts, some questions coming up.

[Vecna]

Here's some thought vomit sorry it's messy and disorganized

VOTE: Skold

I'll iso skold later to make sure this is where I want to be.

My read on Dirty Harry went from town first half of D1 to less town second half of D1 and it's back up to pretty town

Nacho

you know that question I asked you about why you were ignoring e's Wifom accusation? I'm really sorry, but my notes don't actually make clear the intention behind that question. The only thing that my notes say is basically letting me in the future know that I was actually lying to you about being okay with you ignoring as town. But I don't know why I wasn't okay with it, so let's call it a wash because I can't figure it out going back and that probably means it's not a strong enough feeling to be important.

Skold

The reason I asked you the first three questions, Skold, is because the distinction between bad town and scum is the same distinction I felt about tne and also e and I was wondering why you didn't have the same concern because I saw similar kinds of play from both slots.

e

204 is a pretty interesting post, e. “Nacho is town for contributing” is a good indicator of how you think as town and how you think town should act. So why aren't you acting the same way?

Thoughts on the Vecna "test" is that I think it's town motivated off the gate but that's a weak read.
Let's look at Vecna's ISO!
Light townread on Nacho
Says unsure what TNE scumflip means for Skold alignment
Then says Skold is scum with TNE
Then says Nacho is in the lynchpool

Vecna

There's a lot more in your ISO, of course. But this is everything where it doesn't look like there is any context for
I'm fine with inconsistency, I get it. Town forgets how they stood earlier in the game which leads to inconsistency
But could you at least help me understand them?

Skold

alright Skold's recent ISO

I actually really like "I'm willing to lynch anyone" so #conflicted
And other than the posts that dot the ISO every so often that are contentless but make it seem like skold is doing something
his late D1 posts are actually pretty good?????????!?!?!?!

My inclination is actually to go VOTE: e is cool
I see that e early game makes comments that don't actually have barbs in them
Look at 26 it's a potshot that doesn't actually solve the game
Look at 82 it's a bad attack for one, and he doesn't actually push it
And yeah some other concerns that I think i've already voiced

NOTE THAT EVERYTHING ABOUT E IS ACTUALLY TAKEN FROM MY NOTES
SO I'M TRUSTING MY PAST SELF ON THIS

This is the second time now we get a post like this, which is pretty much incomprehensible. So in one post you go from scumreading Skold, to questioning a bunch of people (which would be answered pretty much if you actually read the entire gamethread as opposed to just reading some iso fragments and your notes)......

......To townreading Skold, only because you apparently like his EOD posts even though you state there's a lot of filler there?

And then you suddenly want to lynch E_is_Cool because of some notes you made during D1.


Even though I might agree with most of the conclusions, the process of getting there is extremely confusing and borderline unreadable.

Furthermore:
-What is your stance on Franky and Nacho (whom you almost seem to be defending here)?
-Why do you townread Dirty harry, and why did your read change over time?

[Vecna]

For the people asking about why I changed my reads on Nacho, here's some interesting snippets;

Spoiler:

Skold, I'll give a full reads list before the end of the day in order to clarify where I'm standing on people in the middle, but I won't before then.

You won't do it before, before the end of the day? So at 11:59 pm? Or do you mean the game day? Where did I ask for a full reads list? I'm hella confused by that post.

You asked for reads. I'll give a reads list before the end of the game day, which should satisfy your request for reads.

I still don't buy that town wouldn't even do a little scumhunting independent of this argument.

E did do a little scumhunting outside of the excessive self-defense in his attacks on TNE and his attacks on Dirty Harry.

I've skimmed Vecna's posting, will respond in full when I'm more awake and more sober.

I'll be around soon, so holding off on hammer until I'm fully caught up would be preferred.

@Nacho why was your vote on Vecna? Did you not buy him saying it was a reaction test, why do you think scumVecna would do this and in general, ''what gives, explain yourselves''. You said you'd do a catchup specifically on Vecna so I'm interested to see if you still think he's scum.

I haven't done much more than skim through his posts but he does look quite a bit townier than he did before.

Ok so once again, this shows that you promised us 5 times that you would post more, that you would be there before EOD etc etc. You even stated in the first posts, which was long long before EOD, that you skimmed through my posts. This was still before EOD.

Day2, you state that this skimming showed that I suddenly was a lot more towny. So why, if this skimming had allready happened way earlier, did your vote stay on me?

Also, why were you so insistent to hold off on your full reads list untill the very end of EOD? Seems quite convenient to hold off on it for so long, and then for it to never happen because someone finally hammered it with only 4 hours to go.

Why have you still not supplied us now with this full reads list by now?



This is why I changed my opinion on you, and it needs some answers. You did have a reasonable start on D1, but this is easily faked by decent players. Later on the logic behind your choices becomes more important, but that has been missing for a big crucial part of the game. You're picking it up now, but this was only under pressure. Ill be watching you, and yes, you are still in my potential group of lynch candidates.

Do not use spoiler tags. Please use spoiler= instead.
~Ircher

[Ircher]

Day 2 VC #3

Vecna (0) -
e_is_cool (2) - Harry, Parabola
Harry (0) -
Skold (0) -
Franky (0) -
Parabola (2) - Skold, Nacho
Nacho (0) -
Not Voting (3) - e_is_cool, Franky, Vecna

Lynch Threshold

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!

Deadline

Day 1 ends on August 2, 2016 5:30 PM EST DST+1 or in (expired on 2016-08-02 17:30:00).

Mod Notes

Mod will be V/LA from 7/25 to 7/29.

[Dirty Harry2]

My schedule has become busy.
If I am not online this evening, I will aim to contribute Friday.

[Skold]

Also, even though Skold claimed VT, I find it suspicious that he would claim this early. In the games I've played in, scum usually try to fakeclaim early to gain credibility for the claim.

That would limit the options of a fake PR claim and doesn't help me in anyway. The fact that I claimed prematurely isn't useful.

[Ircher]

Prodding Franky (2d 3h 13m). Franky has (expired on 2016-07-22 20:49:08) to respond.

[Dirty Harry2]

Okay, now that earth and rb are dead and flipped town, I would suspect anyone that pushed for an earth lynch but didn't vote for earth.

I pushed for an earth lynch and didn't vote for earth.
Who else?
Please add names to your theory.
What is your next step after suspicion?

Also, I know NK analysis is WIFOM, but I kinda find it suspicious that Nacho, an IC, is still alive.

Nacho was not a town leader.
Nacho was in many player's null/scum read list.
If Nacho is town: Nacho being an IC and still alive is not a surprise.
Scum will aim to kill the PR's/mass town read players D1.

It's kinda gut, but I think Skold could be scum trying to both push for earth's lynch to get a mislynch and defend earth because he knows earth is town.

RE: "defend earth because he knows earth is town" - I see this.

Rb - is my only town read.

Only town read?
This seems... excessively paranoid. Got anything else today?

It was excessively justified given how shit everyone was playing on D1. And ive allready done other posts after it where I give new reads.

Vecna sums it up perfectly.

This also demonstrates Nachomamma8's detachment to the nature of D1.

[Skold]

Moving house soon, won't lose internet for more than a day so I won't V/LA but don't expect much. I want to get a ISO dig post mainly cause I think the game is lacking spice and has become state the obvious central but don't expect to see that for a few days.