Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, I could see how that could be the case for delta9. The timing bothers me a bit (your post was 2 days after his, but with the activity state in the game in general being what it was at the time that's less useful than it might otherwise be.) I'm not saying I'm sure you're scum; I'm saying that I can see good scum motive for that action. I also tend to think that you're dancing around calling people scummy a bit (Nachomamma8 and delta9,) which I don't love, but will admit that I do as well. It could be playstyle but I don't have enough information to determine that yet.

I also think that scum could easily be lurking this game (in fact they almost certainly are in that I'd say that pretty much the entire player base can count as lurking.) I don't think that I'd call lurking to the point of being replaced (alexs and possible delta9, though that I'm reading as a more intentional quit at this point,) scummy lurking so much as disengaged lurking and not so alignment indicative. The longer fiddlercrabontheroof goes without posts now the worse he looks though, so there might be something more there.

I try to follow the pronoun preference that people have listed, but if I was one of the people who called you he I apologize. The internet is a place where assumptions get made, sometimes despite our best attempts to avoid them.

@Everyone, at this point I'd put my reads as follows:

Scummy enough to be a lynch candidate today: Foxbird, Gratuitious, RachMarie
Lurkers we could lynch and I won't be too sad based on play till now: delta9, fiddlercrabontheroof
Not worth lynching today for at least one reason: Jaack*, Nachomamma8
Probably Town: ecane

*Jaack might be closer to probably town, I need to think about it a bit. It's not as strong a town read as ecane certainly, and as I'm saying it's not a lynch I'd be at all interested in pursuing at this point.

I don't have a hugely strong scum read on anyone at this point and the biggest thing I want to see in the next 3ish days in content from everyone.

If you're having trouble generating content, tell me what I'm wrong about on that list (or anything else I've said.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Foxbird]

Where'd that RachMarie scumread come from?

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, Her scum hunting. Or rather the lack of it. She's got plenty of presence and I know that she's busy, but the biggest reads she's coming up with are based on lack of activity rather than what people have done. That doesn't offend any active players (which scum usually want to avoid doing,) and doesn't feel to me like town seriously trying to figure out the game state. She's given answers to the questions I've asked, but little else to push the game forward. There's also the same vague lack of commitment to calling things scummy that I'm mentioned a bit concerning you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And I'm off till probably late this evening. I'd love to come back to a thread full of activity!

Everyone have a lovely day!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Jaack]

Well I think zorblag has like tripled the content of this game already on his own.

I still have some hangups with the slot though.

1. Caston was rather scummy in his brief time with us.
2. While the only read of his I feel I could significantly argue with is scum-gratuitous, his reads as a while seem open to a lot of lynch options.

That being said, I'm not enthralled with my vote there anymore, and his reasoning on rach-scum looks pretty good.

Current reads

Town:
ecane
Gratuitous
Nacho
delta
Fiddler
Zorblag
Rach
Foxbird
:scum

Kind of feeling delta was more mislynch bait as opposed to scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: foxbird

This is a fine vote for now.

[Foxbird]

Town:
ecane
Gratuitous
Nacho
delta
Fiddler
Zorblag
Rach
Foxbird
:scum

Where is the null in that list? I'm having a hard time seeing a slot with a whole two posts spread out over two players being listed higher than Zorblag, who is pretty town in my opinion. You're even voting with him.

Also according to your lists you both (Jaack and Zorblag) think Rach and I are scum together, yet no one has actually elaborated on interactions between her and me. In 74 Jaack said I "gave her what she wanted to read" - wouldn't that only be applicable if I was scum and she was town?

Also @Zorblag: you yourself say you have no strong scumreads in 125, yet you fault me for lack of commitment on reads. I'm not sure what you expect from me in a game that's a whole six pages. I think we're all suffering from a read drought based on the fact that the game is super slow.

[Foxbird]

Though I guess a lynch on me at least provides content via interactions since I've actually at least somewhat interacted with the majority of active players :/

[Jaack]

[quote="In
Where is the null in that list? I'm having a hard time seeing a slot with a whole two posts spread out over two players being listed higher than Zorblag, who is pretty town in my opinion. You're even voting with him.

Also according to your lists you both (Jaack and Zorblag) think Rach and I are scum together, yet no one has actually elaborated on interactions between her and me. In 74 Jaack said I "gave her what she wanted to read" - wouldn't that only be applicable if I was scum and she was town?

Fiddler is a true null, everyone above him I lean town and everyone below I lean scum.

As for you and Rach, while I do think you are both more likely to be scum than town, that doesn't necessarily mean you are partners. I normally don't concern myself with partner tells day one, since more often than not, it won't be too useful. Better to look at pairs once you have at least one flip.

What makes you think zorblag is town?

[Foxbird]

What makes you think zorblag is town?

I think I briefly mentioned it before, but I don't think Scum!Zorblag would have come charging in as he did. You yourself said that he, like, tripled the activity in the game. His comments and reads have sparked discussion where there was none, and he took charge, which is very pro-town. A scum player could have banked on the very real possibility of town awkwardly shuffling their feet while the day timer ticks down to zero.

[Jaack]

I think I briefly mentioned it before, but I don't think Scum!Zorblag would have come charging in as he did. You yourself said that he, like, tripled the activity in the game. His comments and reads have sparked discussion where there was none, and he took charge, which is very pro-town. A scum player could have banked on the very real possibility of town awkwardly shuffling their feet while the day timer ticks down to zero.

This is a fair analysis, but what gives me pause is that zorblag's slot was one of the status-quo wagons at the time of his entrance. If we did 'shuffle our feet' to deadline, his slot would have been one of the most likely lynches, with delta really the only other popular-ish options.

So yeah, discussion is pro-town, but I'm hesitant to give zorblag townpoints just for sparking it.

[RachMarie]

meh that is typically why peeps scum read me I am not super abrasive etc.

However you are one of the most active members in the thread atm, and though I have put you in my town pile, I am not saying you are 100% town. You are one of the ones I could see pulling the wool over the eyes, however, I think if you were scum Troll, you would not increase activity to quite this level with so few people being active. I am not town reading you just because of your activity, but the WAY you are active, and HOW you are pushing on people to interact and get this game out of the mess it is in.

Im also town reading Nacho and he is one of the least active members.

(quick IC point) Yes Jaack it is better to focus on scum hunting and not trying to figure out scum budz until you have a scum flip.

Back to the game, Part of my scum reads are based on PoE and I fully recognize I could be wrong on some of them. I feel like I am stumbling in the dark because there is nothing here that is majorly super scummy and that makes it harder to figure things out.

[Foxbird]

I think I briefly mentioned it before, but I don't think Scum!Zorblag would have come charging in as he did. You yourself said that he, like, tripled the activity in the game. His comments and reads have sparked discussion where there was none, and he took charge, which is very pro-town. A scum player could have banked on the very real possibility of town awkwardly shuffling their feet while the day timer ticks down to zero.

This is a fair analysis, but what gives me pause is that zorblag's slot was one of the status-quo wagons at the time of his entrance. If we did 'shuffle our feet' to deadline, his slot would have been one of the most likely lynches, with delta really the only other popular-ish options.

So yeah, discussion is pro-town, but I'm hesitant to give zorblag townpoints just for sparking it.

I see your point, but I still think it didn't have to be as much as it was. Matching our activity would have been easy (and probably enough to not get lynched), but surpassing it like this was unnecessary.

It's bed time for me now so I'll be back later.

[Gratuitous]

I'm kinda suspicious of Gratuitous. He hasn't committed to (almost) any reads without being asked to first, and I'm a little skeptical about his vote still being from rvs. He hasn't given any real explanation as to why since then (well, besides fos that was on page 1).

You get a town point for this. I started with the RVS vote on Rach, and haven't moved it for primarily 2 reasons. 1) I didn't want to jump on the 3-3 wagons for reasons and 2) I'd looked at the post count indicator a couple of days ago, and was stunned to see Rach had so many posts, and when I looked back through her Iso, maybe 20-25% of them contained any content at all, very dissimilar to when she was town in our last game. Also, each time Rach has tried to interact with me, it just feels a little wooden, and it's bothering me.

I'll expand on my play a little as well. I tend to like to play a bit quietly until I notice something I'm sure about, and then push hard. With the pace so far, it's been tough to find the tells I need.

OK, let's get some thoughts out there and see what we can't do to get town moving.

@Gratuitious, would you say you're being more cautious with your votes here than normal for you?

See reasons I've stayed on Rach above, but no not really. I've gone entire Days without moving my vote from RVS before the final hour. Usually depends on how I feel like playing it. As Rach can attest, I was rather more aggressive moving it around as scum last time.

[Gratuitous]

What makes you think zorblag is town?

I think I briefly mentioned it before, but I don't think Scum!Zorblag would have come charging in as he did. You yourself said that he, like, tripled the activity in the game. His comments and reads have sparked discussion where there was none, and he took charge, which is very pro-town. A scum player could have banked on the very real possibility of town awkwardly shuffling their feet while the day timer ticks down to zero.

I'm pretty sure someone made that same comment about a scum player in came in hard of a replace in my last game. Discussion is pro-town overall, but just cause you start one doesn't mean you are.

[Gratuitous]

Where I am atm

T:

ecane

LT:

Zorblag, Jack

N:

Nacho, Foxbird, Fiddler

LS:

RachMarie, Delta

S:

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, it's not the strength of the reads, its how you're going about expressing them that I don't like so much. Looking at the delta9 vote for example, you say you're not sure if it's scum lurking or apathy and say you're casting your vote for pressure. I'm fine with not knowing which it is, you're right that it could be either, but I'd rather have you put someone at L-2 (especially someone who I read as likely quitting the game, though you're saying you read it otherwise) because you think they're the scummiest player about.

I also don't particularly think that you're scum with RachMarie. You're both in my top three, but I'm not looking for connections yet. I'm not the sort of superstar scum hunter who can call a scum team day one and I don't try to. I put individuals in categories and then adjust them as the game state progresses. If I'd seen RachMarie's flip then sure I'd look to see how you interacted with her with more scrutiny, but for now, especially day one, I'm just looking for scum motivated behavior from players on their own.

I do have good news though. It's pretty easy to get my vote off you if you want to. Just convince me that you're trying to catch scum. Like I said, my reads aren't exceptionally strong at this point so rather than spending effort defending yourself I'd recommend spending the equivalent effort showing me who else is scum instead. That helps the town more anyhow.

@RachMarie, if you're using process of elimination, what are the town things that all the active players are doing that make you think they're more likely to be town than the non-play by the alexs/fiddlercrabontheroof play. Have you said what you like about the others here? I know you're not high on delta9 and are waiting to see if they get replaced so I don't need a town case for them, right?

I also don't think that you need to be abrasive to call people scummy. I don't think that I'm being particularly abrasive this game, but I've called over half of the active players scummy enough to vote for (who knows, maybe everyone hates me for it and I just haven't noticed.) I'd love to see proactive, positive play as the norm for games and I think that you could be giving it here but aren't. You're positive (certainly friendly and I like that in a newbie game especially as you're an ambassador of sorts,) but I don't feel the proactive scum hunting at all.

@Gratuitous, you've complained about the pace a little and are now saying that you play a quiet game and then push when you see something. I guess I'll recommend a modification of that if I might. When you're in a game state where nothing is happening you've got to push on others a bit to get that traction to get started. If nothings happening the it benefits scum (you clearly know that.) It's in towns best interest to get something happening. When no one posts for 20 hours straight that can be hard, but toss out some questions to players you're not sure of. That's what I did for RachMarie; it gave me something more to work with. I might not be right, but we've got things going now. Never assume that someone else in the town is going to take care of that for you, and probably assume that scum won't in most cases.

@Nachomamma8, I know you're busy, but we need you here in this game. It's the weekend so you might not be able to get to it and I'm not going to ask for prods until Monday, but please be here to play.

@fiddlercrabontheroof, see that last bit and count it double or your player slot. You're casting a vote and I have no idea if it's where you'd like it to be (or if you're even aware of the game state.)

@ecane, congratulations, you're very town read this game. I don't know what your schedule is like, but I highly encourage you to get here and bust apart the theories we're throwing around which aren't right (or back up the ones which are.) Once you've got that read going the biggest thing you can do for the town is to be present and point out what's scum and town in the play that you're seeing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ecane]

I'm kinda suspicious of Gratuitous. He hasn't committed to (almost) any reads without being asked to first, and I'm a little skeptical about his vote still being from rvs. He hasn't given any real explanation as to why since then (well, besides fos that was on page 1).

You get a town point for this. I started with the RVS vote on Rach, and haven't moved it for primarily 2 reasons. 1) I didn't want to jump on the 3-3 wagons for reasons and 2) I'd looked at the post count indicator a couple of days ago, and was stunned to see Rach had so many posts, and when I looked back through her Iso, maybe 20-25% of them contained any content at all, very dissimilar to when she was town in our last game. Also, each time Rach has tried to interact with me, it just feels a little wooden, and it's bothering me.

See, that's my biggest issue with you. If you noticed that while looking through Rach's iso a couple of days ago, why haven't you mentioned that before? Now that two have expressed a scummy read on Rach, suddenly you express yours too? Sure, the cases Zorblag and you have on Rach seem good, I'll look into it a bit later. It just seems like an odd timing.

[ecane]

OK, let's get some thoughts out there and see what we can't do to get town moving.

@Gratuitious, would you say you're being more cautious with your votes here than normal for you?

See reasons I've stayed on Rach above, but no not really. I've gone entire Days without moving my vote from RVS before the final hour. Usually depends on how I feel like playing it. As Rach can attest, I was rather more aggressive moving it around as scum last time.

Also the fact that you didn't do that last time as scum doesn't mean much, especially with Rach in this game as well. That could've easily been the main reason for you to change the playstyle.

[ecane]

And as for Zorblag, with already having three votes on him/Caston, I felt like it was very necessary for him to make an entrance like that. In fact, I think pretty much everyone with his experience would make an entrance like that if they were in that kinda situation, especially in a newbie game. Haven't really found anything from his reads to point out yet, everything seems well explained and thought out. But given the fact that he replaced the player who I thought was the scummiest, I'll definitely keep an eye out. Will reread the whole thing on Monday.

But for now I'm gonna UNVOTE:
More reads, thoughts and all the good stuff incoming on Monday as I won't have much time today.

[Foxbird]

Okay, I'm gonna ISO dive everyone properly to get my reads in order.
First off:

I want to request a prod on Nacho, who hasn't posted in three days.

Also, is a delta replacement on the way?
_ _ _

Spoiler: Explanations!

Alexs/Fiddler: Alexs never did anything beyond RVS voting me, and Fiddler hasn't done anything beyond promising to do something. I don't like that he didn't unvote his predecessor's RVS vote. Still null.

Caston/Zorblag: I've not scumread Caston as much as everyone else seems to. Most of his posts seem null or "stiffly newb" to me (I made the same mistake in my first game: not being sure how to scumhunt effectively, so I spoke very rigidly and rule-oriented and got scumread for it), so he was null to me. I already elaborated on why I townread Zorblag.

Delta: Nothing much has changed since my last assessment, though I'm pretty sure he's quit effectively now. I still think that the slot itself is scummy because he basically crumbled as soon as people started to suspect him, which I feel is more of a scum thing to do. There was no flailing, no explanation, just 'I quit'. If he flips scum, I'd suspect scum in ecane/Gratuitous because they were the once that questioned him. Being criticised by the person who officially is your "buddy" can be hard on newbscum, imo. Scumreading until/unless a replacement does a lot better.

Ecane: I agree with the general town assessment. I liked 141. He draws his own conclusions (as much as is possible in this game, anyway). I can't really describe this and it's only gut, but there is a nice consistency of him not knowing what meta was (27) and later using that knowledge to question Gratuitous (142). Leaning town.

Gratuitous: After rereading him, I have my doubt on him. There's some contradictions, like the activity thing Zorblag already touched on. Whenever he asks questions to get the pace going, he only ever addresses a singular person, not the group, which isn't really a cure for general game slowness. It looks like an easy way out to be able to say "oh, I tried to speed the game up, but X didn't respond!" later. 91 pings me, especially. The wording of it is very close to what had already been said, and he may have wanted to score town points because he saw that work for someone else. Lastly, I don't like the self-meta in 137. Leaning scum.

Jaack: I'm super unsure on this one. I thought our squabbles were TvT and I liked that he put an end to our pointless arguing. Scum would have wanted to inflate their post count, I think, since arguing looks like scumhunting. But then later he goes to voting me after Zorblag, who he is still leaning scum on, and never responds to me pointing that out. He also

conveniently

neglects to say that his vote puts me at L-2. Flickering between null and scum.

Nacho: I liked his entrance, now he vanished again, leaving me at null until he comes back. Content-wise, it now looks like Zorblag is our IC more than Nacho is.

RachMarie: She's been discussed by several people already. I honestly think most of her behaviour is NAI and/or a playstyle thing since I'm having trouble with the same things she is. However, I don't like that her reads seem to be heavily based on meta/personal experience instead of pointing out specific posts etc. in this specific game. Null overall.

Leaning town: Zorblag, ecane
Null: Fiddler, Nacho, RachMarie
Leaning scum: delta, Gratuitous, Jaack

@Gratuitous: Why did you only address ecane in 91?

@Jaack: Why are you voting with one of your scumleans?

@RachMarie: Why exactly are you townreading Nacho again? With specific examples, if possible.

And also, just to make sure because Jaack didn't point it out:

I'm at L-2.

[Foxbird]

Ew, I should proofread myself more thoroughly. The explanations part says I'm fully scumreading delta. That's wrong, the correct reads are in the actual list.

[Jaack]

@Jaack: Why are you voting with one of your scumleans?

1. I'm more confident in my scumread onyou than my one on zorblag.
2. I'd rather be on a wagon that's going somewhere than one that's stalling.
If I'm concerned with someone's presence on your wagon it would not be zorblag's but fiddler's, since at least zorblag has reasoning to back his vote up.

@gratuitous - What are your thoughts on foxbird?

[Zorblag]

@Foxbird, how often do you expect scum to vote for their partners in a game offhand?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Foxbird]

@Foxbird, how often do you expect scum to vote for their partners in a game offhand?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I honestly think that comes down to the player. Some bus hard, some townread their partners, some vary it up between games. I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule. Why do you ask?

[RachMarie]

Still swamped with work stuffs will post more tomorrow, hopefully by then I will be done with the 10, 1 k articles I have to write for client.