Newbie 1726 (Game Over)

[Zorblag]

UNVOTE: RachMarie

VOTE: innocentvillager

That should be L - 2.

I don't have time to say much just now, but I'll get to it this evening. The thing I like least about the recent posts though is his reaction to ecane's post and vote. I'll talk about that in more detail in a bit.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

let me dig up some examples Inno

Right now though since it is International Cat Day, Jiffy and I are working on getting our hydra up and running

OnTheProwl with a pic of two cats ROFL

So yeah I will get back to you shortly

[innocentvillager]

UNVOTE: RachMarie

VOTE: innocentvillager

That should be L - 2.

I don't have time to say much just now, but I'll get to it this evening. The thing I like least about the recent posts though is his reaction to ecane's post and vote. I'll talk about that in more detail in a bit.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Zorblag this better be good af. That was arguably the most protown post I have made this whole day, and if you're town you should know what I'm talking about.

[Zorblag]

@everyone other than innocentvillager, if you understand what I'm saying in the first part of this next bit then I approve. If not then sadly I'm not going to be going into more detail here and now as it's not useful for town to have the discussion any more clear than it is. I'll be happy to talk about it after the game is over though.

@innocentvillager, given that you're claiming that's you're most pro-town post today I should know why you think that your post was pro-town regardless of my alignment, that's just an experience thing. And the post is pro-town-ish in isolation in that it helps if it comes from town and does no damage coming from scum, though NAI as any player aware enough to make it could react that way regardless of alignment after ecane's post.

So here's the problem with it coming from you. You're the reason that that post got made. You clearly set up PR speculation with your post to Nachomamma8 about really not wanting to talk about your reason in a newbie game. You're experienced enough with newbie games in particular to know that players are going to latch onto that and jump to that conclusion first. With a more experience player base you could probably not worry about that danger, but here, given what I've seen of your recent play, that can't have been a surprise at all. Up until you made that post I was giving you some benefit of the doubt, maybe you had some payoff in mind that was going to see a big reveal in this sort of situation. Which is what I tried to tell ecane in reaction to it. But you didn't and now you're even trying to claim town credit for it. Had you had a play that was pro-town in mind when you made the original post this would have been the place to out it. Please tell me how I'm wrong with that because if you are town I need to see that plan.

You said earlier when complaining about me that town shouldn't be so aware of how every play they make is pro-town. I disagreed at the time, and here's a good place where it should have been clear to you, were you town. Scum have a reason to make that move. Town don't.

As far as your post replying to me, you're trying to say that my play here is like my scum games; you certain indicated that you thought that I had particular games that were like this one in Post 297 where you said

Have you meta'd Zorby? He has some pretty legit and detailed scumgames in there that feel pretty similar to his play in both here and 1222. I suggest you do a little more comprehensive meta before you townread him off of similar playstyle to one game we had together with him.

But then you aren't able to identify the games that you had in mind. I post like this in many scum games, but I don't play like this. I don't have a reason to drive activity as scum like I do when I'm town. I have no issue with you not instantly thinking I'm town based on posts, no one really should. What I have a problem with is you saying that I can post like this when I'm scum so I'm probably scum here. You're misrepresenting the suspicion on me that I was working with after entering the game (I was never under any serious pressure this game; I know pressure situations and this hasn't been one of them.)

Your main case on me is that I could be scum who's uber competent and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. And you're literally saying that you think I panicked over a bit of pressure as scum.

It's very possible that you were hoping that you would get me and Jaack off your case by doing all of this. But when you realized we were still scumreading you, you panicked, and came out with this post.

You're walking that back some it seems:

Beyond that I see that you're still sticking with the "Zorblag is a terribly clever and dangerous, sophisticated scum who could be fooling us all, but who also panicked at having a vote cast on him at day 2 and gave it all away," line of thought. Does that not strike you as an unlikely combination?

I don't know what speculative oversimplified AtE you're trying to accomplish here, but I think you were hoping that the rant you made would sway town members to solidify you as town. I can think of scum-motivation for it, but I can't really see town motivation. It was just too little pressure for you to burst your bubble. Honestly, you pointing it out is WIFOM, you painting yourself-scum in an oversimplified narrative here is WIFOM, and to answer your question, no, the way I see it what you're doing is not an unlikely combination at all. I'm only staying off your lynch today because I want actual content Rach and she's way scummier than you right now.

But even that is silly as what I did actually fits exactly the pattern that you said you'd do as town.

See, if I'm town, this shit builds up. Someone's tunneling me. I refute those points, and they continue tunneling me. I go, hey, what the fuck? You're not listening to me! Eventually my bubble will probably burst if they continue to tunnel and misrep me. I don't see Zorblag's post as a town reaction here.

I had probable town tunneling on me in Jaack. I started by mostly ignoring his attacks, got around to attempting to refute the end of day one, and then tried this approach at the start of day two when he's still at it.

Of course my rant is an attempt to sway people into thinking that I'm town, why else would someone make that? And why on Earth would town being persistently tunnelled not do it? Further, this is a newbie game and one of the big things that people need to learn in these games when they start playing is that what they assume should be scummy often isn't. I get to try to make both of those points at the same time with that post. It's not too surprising that it didn't work for Jaack, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth trying. Could I do it as scum? Sure. Is there a reason not to do it as town? Not offhand despite your claim. It's, again, something that I need to do in these games from time to time.

And I shouldn't need to explain any of that to you as a more experienced player. You really seem like you're throwing mud to see what will stick in my direction. It's not working, so you're backing off now. You're even saying that you may need to scum hunt in some other places (though there's no reason not to have been doing that earlier and blaming my posts for not trying is a crappy argument.)

I don't like RachMarie's play at all. It's really easy to read as opportunistic scum. I see more scum motivation in your play at this point though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ecane]

I figured it was kind of weird saying that about someone who hasn't posted shit, but was I supposed to say nothing and just let it be? From my pov, I have no idea how misguiding helps town in any. way.

[Zorblag]

@ecane, innocentvillager might have had either some reason to have that suspicion he hadn't shared (what it could be escapes me, but that doesn't mean it's not possible,) and it's also possible he had some reason to fake it, though if that was the case that should have come out with his post. Rather than getting into speculation of whether he's the cop, if you don't like that play then looking for other reasons to find him suspicious in that situation are probably worth it. I like to think of town as dancing around PRs the first couple days mostly unless there's a solid reason not to, though what counts as a solid reason will vary from person to person.

@Foxbird, I forgot to mention this earlier, but I seldom make cases in the first 2 or 3 days of games in order to convince people that I'm right. I'm more doing it so that everyone has access to my thought process. It helps them get a read on me and it invites everyone to point out flaws in my reasoning which helps me refine reads. Both of those are good for town, but I'd rather have everyone come to their own conclusions rather than sheeping me.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Nachomamma8]

@zorb and really any experienced mafia player: what strategic advantage could be gained from a no kill on day one for mafia? I see in the PT you're referring to that inno was really into the idea in that particular game, but I don't know enough about the metagame to understand why that makes sense or if it applies here. I feel like I would want to just get rid of one of the more active town players.

I am admittedly a bit behind, but why did this question crop up?

[Zorblag]

@Nachomamma8, I saw that innocentvillager had been considering a no kill as scum for another, completed game. I meant for it to be something to keep in mind for future game days if he was still alive and brought it up in that context. I did not intend anyone to assume that a no kill happened night one.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Nachomamma8]

I'm comfortable with a Rach lynch today.

So you're comfortable in assuming a Rach/Zorblag team despite Zorblag voting Rach for a majority of the game?

[RachMarie]

well yay Nacho

uggh

I think inno is scumz in this game too

foe has posted more content which is why I switched my vote plus as I pointed out inno's play here feels like his play in the other game and there is PoE based on the fact I have town reads on you and troll

The fact that troll is scum reading me is misguided but meh Im used to being low hanging fruit


oh unrelated to the game Nacho but Jiffy and I launched our hydra yesterday in honor of International Cat Day, now we just have to find a game. Looking forward to when you have some time too for a hydra.

[RachMarie]

and that is another point of why I think inno is scumz

Troll is convinced Rach is scum

Rach thinks Troll is town and understands why he is misguidedly reading Rach as scum

Inno thinks they are scum buddies.... what???

[innocentvillager]

So here's the problem with it coming from you. You're the reason that that post got made. You clearly set up PR speculation with your post to Nachomamma8 about really not wanting to talk about your reason in a newbie game. You're experienced enough with newbie games in particular to know that players are going to latch onto that and jump to that conclusion first. With a more experience player base you could probably not worry about that danger, but here, given what I've seen of your recent play, that can't have been a surprise at all. Up until you made that post I was giving you some benefit of the doubt, maybe you had some payoff in mind that was going to see a big reveal in this sort of situation. Which is what I tried to tell ecane in reaction to it. But you didn't and now you're even trying to claim town credit for it. Had you had a play that was pro-town in mind when you made the original post this would have been the place to out it. Please tell me how I'm wrong with that because if you are town I need to see that plan.

Fuck this shit. I'm not getting fucking scumread for this bullshit.

I townread foe because Zaicon replaced him in late into Night 1 without pausing the Night to have night discussion. Literally foe would've gotten no time to talk with partner in the queue, and letting one scum just decide the kill by themselves without the replacement is kind of silly.

[innocentvillager]

Rach's constant "uggh"s look fake as fuck.

blaming my posts for not trying is a crappy argument

I've honestly tried but do you see how much time and effort getting into these wall wars with you takes up? Have ever looked at one of your own walls? It's no wonder that I don't spent a lot of in-thread time engaging other players!

[innocentvillager]

I'm comfortable with a Rach lynch today.

So you're comfortable in assuming a Rach/Zorblag team despite Zorblag voting Rach for a majority of the game?

Look, I explicitly said I don't know who the team is, and tbh I haven't done a ton of associative analysis yet but I will after the flip tonight for sure. I said I think Rach is scum, and I'm not sure who the other one is, but it could be Zorblag, less likely Foxbird/you/Jaack etc. Actually, seeing Rach's interactions with you make a you/Rach scumteam less likely. Rach/Zorblag is possible since they are independently scummy. Rach is the most fos'd player in the game generally, so I definitely wouldn't put it past Zorblag to bus her. Hell, I bus all the fucking time.

[innocentvillager]

@innocentvillager, given that you're claiming that's you're most pro-town post today I should know why you think that your post was pro-town regardless of my alignment, that's just an experience thing. And the post is pro-town-ish in isolation in that it helps if it comes from town and does no damage coming from scum, though NAI as any player aware enough to make it could react that way regardless of alignment after ecane's post.

This is the same argument I have against your "pro-town actions" and you keep dismissing it. Way to use your own logic against yourself.

[RachMarie]

Inno

YOU WERE IN THE GAME WITH TROLL he posted exactly like this

he got lynched

he flipped town

[foedufafa]

That's what I was thinking you might be getting at with the townread on me, but I don't understand why it needed to be brought up in the first place.

It seems like at least one of these three is gonna flip scum and I would be honestly surprised if it were Troll right now. The way he's been pressuring me to get active in the conversation seems a little too above and beyond. It's not just that it appears pro-town - it seems actively anti-scum. I'm not ruling out the possibility of it being manipulative, but out of anyone in the game right now I want to see him lynched today the least.

[Zorblag]

Fuck this shit. I'm not getting fucking scumread for this bullshit.

Before I get to anything else you've had to say, you saying this to me in this game at this point is the height of absurdity. What you've done with that quote there is to sum up how I feel about your play regarding me today in particular, but even stretching back to day one, in a nice little vulgar nugget. Kudos on the attempt to turn that on its head.

As what I'm scum reading you on, you're saying that as experienced town in a newbie game you should leave that you're sure someone who's contributed anything over the course of the game is town, but you reallyyyy don't want to talk about it unless he's going to get lynched for such a mundane reason that hurts nothing to talk about at the time? It's practically begging for inexperienced town to start talking about PRs and you should know that. There's no good reason for town to do that, but scum love it, especially when you get to turn around and try to say that you were pro-town for complaining when people talked about PRs.

I'm posting these walls largely to respond to the garbage cases and replies you keep put out there about me. If you don't want to have to deal with them stop giving me the nonsense to respond that you've been giving me and go find scum. Or sit here and complain about the mean old Troll who types things that compel you ignore everything else, because that's clearly what town would do.

As for the calling your own post pro-town, come back when you're arguing shape of game and not a post that your play which hurts the town has set you up for and we can talk about it. You're drawing false equivalencies there and you should know it.

Having said all of that, I actually agree that you're not saying that RachMarie and I are the scum team and that you're looking at the two of us independently. That's not something I find scummy about your play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Nachomamma8, you don't seem to be fully caught up yet, but when you get a chance, is foedufafa still the right place for your vote? Who's skating by and not getting the attention they should be right now (maybe that's foedufafa? Maybe it's you?)

@Jaack, your activity level here is getting a bit troubling. That last post did a fine job of staying the course, but I don't know that I expect you to be complacent as town which is how I might describe your recent behavior. What can we do to get you back involved in the game more (and the answer shouldn't actually be about the rest of us so much as yourself.)

@Foxbird, you're also not about so much today, though I grant that the dental work isn't fun or an encouragement to get here and be active. You asked ecane about her thoughts on my interactions with innocentvillager, but I wonder what you're thinking about innocentvillager at this point. He's certainly a central figure right now and I'd love to see you weigh in on his actions or the statements about his actions. Like with Jaack I've vaguely worried that you're holding back from the game at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[innocentvillager]

Zorblag I'll deal with you tomorrow.

But:

Inno

YOU WERE IN THE GAME WITH TROLL he posted exactly like this

he got lynched

he flipped town

Can we lynch this holy shit I don't town-Rach is this bad

[RachMarie]

Troll how would you compare his play here to the game all three of us were in Newbie 1222

[RachMarie]

well that would be one way to get Nacho to post more

he goes on rages when people do stupid things

like mislynch me yet again

[Zorblag]

@RachMarie, compare innocentvillager's play this game to his play in the other? I don't think that it's a useful comparison anymore. He's grown a lot as a player since then. I could take a look, but I recall him trying to find his feet in the game which he's not trying to do here at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[RachMarie]

The other game I posted just ended.

[Nachomamma8]

I townread foe because Zaicon replaced him in late into Night 1 without pausing the Night to have night discussion. Literally foe would've gotten no time to talk with partner in the queue, and letting one scum just decide the kill by themselves without the replacement is kind of silly.

Why did you wait to out this reasoning?