Mini Normal 1814 Machiavellian Mafia (Game Over)

[itlepip]

@Mod: Will be V/LA from midday Friday through Sunday afternoon, Pacific time (GMT-8 usually, but I don't know how DST fucks with that...)

kk

[Elyse]

I've literally been on a scum team before that left a town PR alive because we thought they could be mislynched. But nice try.

Also would like to point out that your focus on this -- the least important part of my argument, and one that I said in that post was probably not the primary reason for Blackstar being killed, if it was a reason at all -- makes it seem like you combed through my posts looking for something to attack.

explain to me how this would work

i'll set the scene up for you:

scum 1: rosske is a pr let's nk him

scum 2: nah let's leave him alive so we can mislynch him tomorrow

scum 1: ok

town and scum: vote rosske

rosske: i claim *insert town PR*



Finish the scene

[Zap Rowsdower]

I'll have to rewrite the scene in order for it to make sense, sorry. Here we go:

Scum1: Should we NK Rosske?
Scum2: We could. But we don't know what he is. He could be a bomb for all we know.
Scum3: Idrctbqh I'm just gonna try to get Zap lynched.
Scum2: OK well we have a {roleblocker/JK/JOAT}, so how's about we just neutralize whatever power he has for a night and kill somebody else?
Scum1: K that works. That'll make Rosske look bad and we could push that angle. That could force him to claim.
Scum3: Can we kill Blackstar? I don't like that guy, he's onto us.
Scum2: Sure. And re: Rosske, if he claims something unbelievable then we could always push a mislynch on him too.
Scum3: I AM ELYSE.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Oh you wanted me to go all the way to a Rosske claim. I won't write it like a script but here are some possible PRs that town might not believe:

-Miller
-BP
-Backup (can exist without actually backing something up)

And idk there's probably more

[BigYoshiFan]

Mod, V/LA until 8/20. Hopefully I'll be on to make some quick posts.
Still 100% sure of the Rosske/Zap scumteam.
Elyse, we already have two votes on Rosske, who could very well be a mafia PR, help us lynch him.

[MariaR]

I don't think much will be getting done while everyone is going V/LA

[Elyse]

Zap, your version assumes that scum have RB power and that Rosske would be stupid enough to claim "special" and then continue to not claim if he had a role like BP. I don't make assumptions.

VOTE: Rosske

[MariaR]

Oh we're finally getting votes on Ross? Thank god.

VOTE: Rosske I've been waiting.

[Comparing Realities]

Or let him claim when he's darn good and ready? If you're just very publicly manufacturing a scenario for him to be under pressure (which doesn't exist btw) and then claim, he'll know it's all just a play, and consequently you will know his reaction to be more controlled and disingenuous.

Well, we don't know if he's mafia, and I think there is a good chance that he is which is why I'm so persistent on his claim. I'm sure you know that is he was mafia you would want a claim now. This post is very scumlike to me, mainly for that first question.

Or let him claim when he's darn good and ready?

If you're so sure he's scum, then, conditional on you being town, I respect your opinion. His reactions feel town, he's not in panic mode, he didn't claim when it would have been an easy way out of a lynch, so, in my opinion, he's probably town; ergo, he should let him claim at the time he feels is best.

"Controlled" is the last thing you want mafia to be; you want them to panic, which is the reason why pressure, which doesn't exist, exists.
Really, the fact that Ira is so insistent that Rosske should claim should tell you everything you need to know about whether Rosske should claim.

Okay, what if I want him to claim?

Following the above logic, that scum wants town PR to hardclaim? Then either you and Ira are scumbuddies, or you're wrong about your read of Rosske.

Here's an idea: bring Ira to L-1, let us be clear and unequivocal in our declaration that IRA WILL BE LYNCHED AND WE WILL NOT ACCEPT A SCAPEGOAT, and force Rosske's hand. Like those spy movies where they don't torture the guy, but instead strap a bomb to his bae to get the missile codes.

What makes you think Rosske would claim under this situation?

If Ira were about to be lynched, scum!Rosske might claim to distract town--"look, uncc'd PR says we should actually lynch this other guy!"--but you're right, it's burdened by its terrible improbability. I think when I wrote this, I was also hoping to elicit a reaction from Rosske about Ira's wagon, but he didn't comment on it, and I forget if that actually was part of what I was doing '^-^

Ira, I did not say you weren't scum, in fact I said you'd be a good lynch even if you were not blatantly scum (a double-negative meaning that you are blatantly scum and just flailing at this point), I've said before that Rosske should not fullclaim, and you're the one who wants him to fullclaim anyway so why is that a scumread for me if I just do it in a creative way, and you of

all people

should not be accusing others of spamming.

You

don't

want Rosske to claim?

...I get the feeling you didn't thoroughly read my megapost. Half of it was a logical proposition that Rosske shouldn't claim.

@CR
I disagree with you completely. Softclaiming is stupid and scummy. I would be more lenient with Rosske if he gave us something today but he hasn't and it makes the scale tip in the scum direction.

I posit that scum would actually take the easy low road and claim when the wagon is at moderate speed, like from early today. Rosske is refusing to claim, meaning he

really doesn't want to

, which means either patient, resilient, stable scum, or town.

Elyse, the entire point of your argument that Rosske should claim is because if he's lying, we can just cc him, right?
What if he claims a role that is not in the game, and is therefore not cc'd? You'd have just "confirmed" a mafia as a town PR in your worldview, if that's the extent of your rationale.
I feel that this should have been obvious.

Duh. But let's say he claims jailkeeper and there's a town roleblocker. The roleblocker can CC him and he dies.

But if he holds off another day, scum NK the town roleblocker, now Rosske knows not to claim JK. Like I said, I was fine with him not claiming yesterday but he's given us no additional information today which indicates to me that he's scum.

This scenario is incredibly improbable. Really, random fakeclaims get away without a cc more often than you'd think.

Oh we're finally getting votes on Ross? Thank god.

VOTE: Rosske I've been waiting.

Why not vote earlier if this is really a case of "finally we're lynching the bastard"...

@Elyse Explain your townread on Skold/Wake when they've contributed so little yet. It's nigh impossible to get any sort of read on them at all.

[Comparing Realities]

Nevermind about not being able to get a read. Looking back on Skold/Wake, both seem to be very hesitant about the Ira wagon, (on two occasions, Skold voted/scumread Ira, then unvoted immediately, an uncommon but effective tactic to create a false impression of towniness on the target--"I thought the case against Bob was good, but then I realized it wasn't."), and Wake supported a Rosske claim, saying he should have done it on D1 instead of softing.

See, this is such a suspicious thing to post...

Why do you even care? You are suspicious because I don't like your posts.

No, no it isn't. Why is someone pushing you for why you don't like their posts suspicious.

This all reeks of scum.

More on Iraon to follow.

The following post was the second-next post from Skold after the above:

Skipping that entire BYF/Ira exchange because

that is TvT

and I really don't care. Also because I dislike Ira's posting style. It's annoying to read.

Int to hammer Mapwolf

because I want stuff to happen rather than 5 pages of 1 on 1 action.

And it's never before been a problem for me to use that terminology, Elyse is probably just trying to make a big deal about it because she is scum-aligned and trying to make an excuse to policy lynch me.

I'm going to assume Elyse isn't boldfaced lying when I vote you for this. Will check later and if she is and has acted like she is scumreading you, I'll swap but I highly doubt someone would do that. Though I don't mind the ''aligned'' thing so much it just breaks up your posts a bit, this seems like a really shitty reason to scum read someone.
VOTE: Iraon

@Peoples - I will be moving soon so I will post but not often. You won't notice a difference, because I'm hardly active anyway, probably should have mentioned it like 3 days ago.

Wait never mind he's just being silly. Nothing in that ISO jumps out at me as something any scum player would want to say.
UNVOTE:
Imma need a while to think on this. Back to the lurk-cave.

"Wait nevermind"...? Skold dismissed an entire wagon how, exactly? If you look closely, that post came two minutes--two minutes!--after the previous one. Hardly enough time to check IRa's ISO.

As for Wake...

When someone is at L1, you get them to claim.

You don't have them crumb 'Oh, I'm a PR,' and then be done with it.

By having them hard-claim it becomes less easy for Scum to backtrack. Like, say, Doctor that claimed Day 1 yet miraculously is still alive Day 4.

f Scum at L1 crumbs being a PR, he's got the whoooole game to come up with a convincing fakeclaim,

Typical pro-claim argument, next.

VOTE: ira

Everyone give him a chance to claim.

VOTE: unvote

There's also the matter of why Ira did not follow along with Elyse's lynch of Black, which I cannot understand given the current constraints of this problem...

Perhaps pressure on Black is merited.

Despite my logic behind 1006 being fundamentally flawed, Wake used it as an excuse to get off of what was at the time the most prominent wagon. I would contend that the fake momentum-crash might have actually saved Ira's life yesterday. Somehow, Skold and Wake did the exact same thing three times in different circumstances, each time to Ira's benefit. What?

[MariaR]

I didn't think the Ross wagon had enough steam so I pushed my other reads but when 3 people voted that was enough for me to jump on.

[Nero Cain]

Speaking of Ira....ntice how he's lurking now that the main focus is not on him.

[iraonavp]

Speaking of Ira....ntice how he's lurking now that the main focus is not on him.

No, I just didn't have anything to post in the game. I only just saw this post now...

We are voting Rosske at L-1 so he is forced to claim.

[Nero Cain]

^
hello bettlejuice

[Nero Cain]

scum often don't kill prs to sow WIFOM so I'm not sure why Elyse is pretending like that's not a thing. Like all her logic is so assbackwards this game. I mean sure, Ross will need to eventually full claim but I don't see the big deal to do it today *shrugz*

[iraonavp]

Vote Rosske then!

How can you rationalize calling him town-aligned unless you subscribe to that argument for why he didn't die?

[Nero Cain]

ummmm...I do think its very possible. Why do think its not? I also had the same issue with the Map wagon that I had with the Ross wagon, there was no resistance.

[iraonavp]

Okay, you're scum-aligned then.

[Nero Cain]

Rosske: MariaR, Nero Cain, Dwlee, Zap Rowsdower, BlackStar, gerryoat

Mapwolf: Elyse, Dwlee, Nero Cain, Zap Rowsdower, BigYoshiFan, Skold

hrmmmm...

I mean I knew DW was scum already but maybe this does poiint to Zap as scum.

[iraonavp]

No, that's awful and doesn't make any sense.

You are using VCA incredibly misrepresentatively.

In fact, it proves you as scum-aligned in the exact same way it proves Dwlee as scum-aligned!

[Nero Cain]

I don't really remember you having a scumread on DW.

Map (confirmed town) and Ross both had wagons of little resistance. That to me makes me think that there is scum on those wagons and the only 3 names that appear on both wagons are me, DW and Zap. I am confirmed town to myself so...

also if you have a scumread on DW why is my thinking there is scum on the wagons flawed?

[MariaR]

Ross was one of my early scum reads in the game but I backed off when he claimed PR so wanting him to claim is ideal for me in this case I also assume anyone else voting Ross scum reads him because I do agree asking him to claim without a reason is stupid I don't think we should focus on the "Why ross is alive" Statement because there's to many factors that play into it and we're never going to know the right answer focusing on it is a waste.

[iraonavp]

I don't really remember you having a scumread on DW.

Map (confirmed town) and Ross both had wagons of little resistance. That to me makes me think that there is scum on those wagons and the only 3 names that appear on both wagons are me, DW and Zap. I am confirmed town to myself so...

also if you have a scumread on DW why is my thinking there is scum on the wagons flawed?

No, I always thought Dwlee was town-aligned.

You quoting two wagons like it is actual evidence proves nothing.

I know that "little resistance" is easily manipulated by scum-aligned players to reach any conclusion that you want to reach.

[iraonavp]

If you're confirmed as town-aligned to yourself, how does it make Dwlee scum-aligned to be on the wagons in the

exact same position as you

?

You don't believe what you're saying at all!

[MariaR]

If you're confirmed as town-aligned to yourself, how does it make Dwlee scum-aligned to be on the wagons in the

exact same position as you

?

You don't believe what you're saying at all!

He's saying that scum were on wagons like map/ross and the only people that were the same on said wagons were him DW and Zap and from his pov as town it makes DW and Zap likely partners.