The Resistance (O3P1 - Replacement Needed)

[Something_Smart]

Wow.

That has to have been an all-town team.

[N]

well done, everyone-not-radja-and-somethingsmart

[Klick]

Wow.

That has to have been an all-town team.

Why?

[Something_Smart]

Because there's no way that three spies all reject a team containing their fourth partner, especially when there would have been no obvious weak link on this team.

[Killthestory]

well done, everyone-not-radja-and-somethingsmart

ty

[Something_Smart]

KTS I feel good about you

why don't you feel good about me?

[Klick]

Several people have expressed discomfort with the team, and in particular with you and Radja. Spies may have seen accepting the team as a scumtell. At least, if a third and/or fourth person accepted that team, I would probably be scumreading them right now.

[N]

SS has been badposting this page

[Something_Smart]

It's a forgeone conclusion that Radja was going to accept.
Faalcon, Killthestory, randomidget and I never said whether we would accept. Ircher only said he would reject near the end of the voting period.

I don't think anybody could have predicted this extreme split when they voted. I sure didn't. (I suspected it might be rejected, but not by that much.)

[Klick]

It's a forgeone conclusion that Radja was going to accept.
Faalcon, Killthestory, randomidget and I never said whether we would accept. Ircher only said he would reject near the end of the voting period.

I don't think anybody could have predicted this extreme split when they voted. I sure didn't. (I suspected it might be rejected, but not by that much.)

You listed six names. The remaining four are mykonian, Elekitu, N and myself, all of which expressly didn't approve of the team. I can't answer for anyone else, but I'm not at all surprised that the vote was this lopsided when a 6-4 pass was the only thing saving the team.

[Klick]

Killthestory, I'm very interested in your thoughts. Why'd you decide to reject?

[Something_Smart]

It's a forgeone conclusion that Radja was going to accept.
Faalcon, Killthestory, randomidget and I never said whether we would accept. Ircher only said he would reject near the end of the voting period.

I don't think anybody could have predicted this extreme split when they voted. I sure didn't. (I suspected it might be rejected, but not by that much.)

You listed six names. The remaining four are mykonian, Elekitu, N and myself, all of which expressly didn't approve of the team. I can't answer for anyone else, but I'm not at all surprised that the vote was this lopsided when a 6-4 pass was the only thing saving the team.

Yeah but scum would not get in trouble for accepting after a 5-5 or 4-6 rejection, I don't think.

Anyway, two questions.
1) Who do think the spy was/spies were on the proposed team?
2) What are your reads on the other players who were openly against it (mykonian, Elekitu, N)?

[Klick]

1) Who do think the spy was/spies were on the proposed team?

I had all three of you as some form of leaning scum, though Killthestory was more null than you and Radja. Radja's my biggest suspect by far at the moment and I likely wasn't accepting any team he proposed. I have a pet theory that involves a you/Radja/KTS team deciding to put up three Spies, but it's not weighing heavily in my thoughts.

2) What are your reads on the other players who were openly against it (mykonian, Elekitu, N)?

Have a look at the town list I composed around this time last night, in approximately this order:

Klick
Ircher
N
Elekitu
mykonian

I wouldn't say this has changed much if at all since then. There was reasoning behind each of these and I could probably point you to the posts I like from each of them, but it's largely gut-based.

[Killthestory]

Killthestory, I'm very interested in your thoughts. Why'd you decide to reject?

Because I don't like SS or Radja.

[Something_Smart]

I have a pet theory that involves a you/Radja/KTS team deciding to put up three Spies, but it's not weighing heavily in my thoughts.

Given your reads, I should think this possibility might occur to you.

A team like that can't work without crumbs. Did you see any crumbs that might have been used to organize something like that?

[Klick]

Yes, primarily from you.

(I actually toyed with the idea of trying to send as many spies as possible on mission 1 or 2 to see what they would do, but that seemed risky and unlikely to be worthwhile.)

Also is the fact that spies are not exactly "lying" per se; they want who they want on the team, and they're usually straightforward about it.

This could be interpreted by Radja as "send as many spies as possible," backed up by the following sentence suggesting you're being straightforward about this.

At the moment the team I most support is Radja/Killthestory/Something_Smart.

Radja's next post locks in this team. (Granted, this would take a large lack of subtlety on Radja's part, though I wouldn't think he'd see it as impossible to get away with.)

I'd like to point out that my reads aside from Radja-spy aren't terribly strong. You mentioned earlier that you see Radja as resistance; you're probably going to have to convince me otherwise if you want that opinion to change.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

[mykonian]

ok, so at this point I want to repose the same question to Radja: why something smart on that list? It's not as if there's 8 scum voting here against it, and there's been little controversy around KtS and you.

If people get convinced that S_S at this time looks scummy, what makes you so special that you wouldn't risk anybody else but had to go with S_S? It's BS that somehow that's the only townread you have.



I mean, thinking it through I may very well be wrong about S_S, because unless after a couple days of thinking after the first time I asked that question Radja did come up with a proper answer, I think this is a buddying attempt on a townie that's getting bullied, picking up souls. It looks like a radja scum-S_S town interaction moreso than 2 scum wifoming (I think if I had been Radja I'd have let that ship sink then, not let S_S drag me with him).

I cannot see myself voting in favour of the next group of people anyway, faalcon's been iffy. KtS should be promising (though I kind of hope he'll come up with something good, can't say I'm all that confident about Ircher either, though he's not as obviously scummy as Faalcon is)

[Faalcon]

IMO there are at least two spies in Radja/S_S/KTS, and I believe it's the former ones. I'd not pick KTS for now, though.
I won't pick until near the deadline. We've got time and now Radja picked a team, we have plenty to discuss about.

[Something_Smart]

@Klick: that is an interesting thought, but it doesn't really hold upon closer inspection. If I were smart enough to crumb something like that (and I probably would be), I wouldn't crumb both "send as many spies as possible" AND "send Radja/SS/KTS". Way too dangerous if that gets found after the mission fails. In any event, sending three spies can be problematic if you get two or three fails, so we'd also need to have crumbed who would pass and who would fail.

I mean, thinking it through I may very well be wrong about S_S, because unless after a couple days of thinking after the first time I asked that question Radja did come up with a proper answer, I think this is a buddying attempt on a townie that's getting bullied, picking up souls. It looks like a radja scum-S_S town interaction moreso than 2 scum wifoming (I think if I had been Radja I'd have let that ship sink then, not let S_S drag me with him).

This is interesting, because the reason I originally townread Radja was for correctly pegging me as town, but now that I think about it, he might have picked the most controversial players, intending to fail the message and blame it on them. (I guess he didn't anticipate such a negative reaction.)

@Faalcon: what makes you think that?

[mykonian]

IMO there are at least two spies in Radja/S_S/KTS, and I believe it's the former ones. I'd not pick KTS for now, though.
I won't pick until near the deadline. We've got time and now Radja picked a team, we have plenty to discuss about.

Gosh, but how little you add.

Lets slow this game down, why not. I don't want you anyway.

[Faalcon]

Want me to add things ? Okay then.

Why there are 2 or 3 scum in the first team :
-This is not a full town team. You won't make me believe this (see my reads below).
-If there is one scum, the votes do not make sense. With at least two team members accepting, plus three or four scums, there were at least 5 accepting. It would have passed or been a very narrow rejection. Nobody can make reads on a 5-5, so it was a gain-a-lot/lose nothing situation for the scum team.

Now, let's read everyone.

Why I think Radja is scum :

Spoiler:

His first post is pretty neutral. He's choosing, and asking for advices.
Then he complains about people accusinf each other immediately. Why I understand his point, it's not like we have much else to do, and he does the very same thing he ciricizes : he accuses people immediately because...those people accused others immediately. You cannot do this and stay town.
He's right about not voting early though. Like in mafia, the longer days last, the better it is.
Now ghe next thing he does is posting a team. Early. The first one that was suggested. This goes against whatever he said before.
Then he refuses debate on the votes. While I understand what he says, scum have enough information to decide without the 6 other people saying what they did.
Then he explains he thinks it is an all-town team, but just wants to see what people will vote. If he really thinks it is a town team, shouldn't he want us to accept it ? Plus he could just have asked with his 3 days left.

So Radja says one thing and then its contrary, or says one thing is bad and then immediately does it. Scum.

Why I don't know about KTS :

Spoiler:

Let's read his posts.
#18 : well, nothing to read here.
#23 : mykonian has, no meta on him. The mact makes him very sad.
#44 : could be a scum/townslip about what's happening, but I doubt it somehow. Maybe indicates he thinks #43 is bullshit.
#45 : he wants Radja to select him. Trying to buddy Radja ?
#62 : townreads N. Goes in pair with #44. His post is relevant, but the townread goes a bit far.
#65 : he agrees with Mykonian's answer to #62, Looks townish to me.
#67 : he read #66.
#71: I have no idea what this post means.
#78/80 : he... wants S_S to read better ? I'm lost here.
#90/91 : he is happy to be chosen.
#113 : see #78
#115/117 : he votes, and he rejects. Bad explanation.
#138 : slightly better explanation : he scumreads Radja and S_S. I think.
Okay, lots of posts ans so little in them. To judge I need content, and content I don't have.

Why I think Ircher is town :

Spoiler:

#37 is a cryptic mess. I hate cryptic messes, i cannot read them.
His next post is a classic town perspective .
He points out N's overreaction to Mykonian's post. He has a valid view, not more valid than the other side though.
He keeps this read in his nextnpost, while questioning Elekitu's read of him.
#75 makes me rethink the clarity of my posts, and his defense of his playstyle is valis. Neither of his posts looked strange to me.
His behaviour during the vote phase is okay. I'd have liked explanations though.

Nothing much to say here, pretty much the perfect VT first phase.

Why I don't have a clue about randomidget

Spoiler:

5 one liners. Okay then.
He wants to be picked, like pretty much everyone.
#72 : am I that hard to understand ? I was talking, about probabilities, not him.
#99 : private joke, doesn't say much.

I gained more information on my play than his.

Why I think Somethin_Smart is scum :

Spoiler:

I like his theory-heavy entry, and his fist answer to mykonian.
He gles a bit OMGUS later though, which is never good.
I don't like his readlist, explains things damnit ! Plus townreading oneself is doubtful at best.
His townread on Radja is strange.
#112 is shit. He takes a very valid question, and mocks it. And he does a sculread of Kick with that. "
His dynamic with Radja is strange. He agrees with everything Radja says, and Radja follows him. Buddying much.
His page 6 is awful, also. He treats "there is not exactly one scum" as "this is all town". And he explains badly why there is not exactly one scum in his opinion.
And #143 is a bad WIFOM.
I liked his early-game, then it spiralled down. Scummy.

Why I don't know about mykonian :

Spoiler:

His first post looks okay I guess.
His townread of N is far fetched to me, being paranoid and being town are two distinct things.
#28 is strange. Isn't buddying considered bad ?
His early aggression on S_S looks like an RVS to me, let's see where it goes.
#32 is strange. He's new to a game and has no resources about the meta, of course he's going theory-heavy. Plus being non-commital and not active in the early stages of the game is hardly scum-exclusive.
#34 is also strange. He reads S_S' s posts sentence by senrence in #32, then is mad at him for doing the same, on a greater scale, in #33. Plus S_S's post doesn't say "you're too direct so I'm town", it says : "you attack me because of unvalid things, if I'm scum it's not because lf that". And tunnelling is bad.
#39/48 are okay, #39 is pretty townish to me.
Then again, I don't know why we should pick early at first. Wd saw it get rejected by an overwhelming majority of playefs because we picked early. And while we waied for the pick there were still posts.
#55 is right though.
#66 is good on the answer. I don'like how the scumread comes from, tough.
#63 may assure us mykonian's not buddying N, but #85 looks very much like it.
I don't know what mykonian has against #33.
#97/101 are good. #103 not so much. #105 is okay.
I really don't like #141. The change of read on s_S is strange, as the dynamic between he and Radja goes both ways.
Things I like, things I don't. Nullread for now.

Why I think Elekitu's town :

Spoiler:

#26 is a nice entry.
At first I thought #59 was a joke, but it seems it was a serious demand of explanations. I'll use "luck" now I guess. Pretty good post anyway.
I disagree with the read on Ircher, though. Stating the obvious is often done by everyone, if only to start the debate. I see the reasoning though.
I like the explanation of the reject too.

There's not much, but what there is is pretty good.

Why I think Klick is town :

Spoiler:

supports #66. Pretty good insight on the early-game, too.
#84 is basically my thoughts on Elekitu's #68, so I like it.
#87 is why I rejected too. Damn.
#109 makes a good point.
#116 is 100% right. Not debating is never a good idea for obvious reasons.
#131 is a nice explanation. I'm not sure we can scumread people in a 4-6/5-5 though.
I don't agree with all the readlist.
I like #140, though.

Nearly perfect to me, strong townread.

Why I think (but am very unsure) N is scum :

Spoiler:

#21 : buddying detected and rejected. The paranoia ks quite strong.
#22 is "wow I want town to win". A bit LAMIST, but I can see frol where it comes.
#25 harshly stops the buddying. Or so we think.
#40 is strange at the very least, if Radja proves to be scum N obviously won't pick him again.
#47 is strage too, even if I don't agree with Ircher here the way N dismiswes the push is suspect.
#82 does the same thing but better, because the arguments it dismisses are much worse.
#83 is strange, liking a post is not about agreeing with it.
#92 is right.
#93 is the biggest reason I scumread N. After dismissing mykonian's attempts at buddying, this post is nlw welcoming yet another of those attempts. It's not consistent.
Thebrest is okay.

Not bad as a whole but something's making me reqlly uncomfortable. Slight sculread for now.

[Something_Smart]

Faalcon, a lot of the things you said in that post were just... wrong.

Radja asked not to be rushed; it was his decision to send the team. The fact that he chose to send it when he did is not scummy, as Klick and Faalcon have suggested. Even if it were hypocritical (it's not), hypocrisy is a towntell.

Ircher's play has been by no means the "perfect VT first phase" and I have really no clue about where that came from.

Aaaaand there's a lot of wrong stuff about me.
First of all, "OMGUS is never good" is a baldfaced lie. Calculated OMGUS has its merits, especially in this game where spies are trying to get spies on the team and that means getting Resistance members off the team, and they do that by calling those Resistance members scum. My townread on Radja came from the same line of reasoning. (Also, if you'll notice, I didn't call mykonian scum when he called me scum; I only called him scum later, after he misrepped me.)

I don't think you know what buddying is, either. What you are describing can best be called "forming a block", which is something both town and scum do (but town does more).

You're attacking my page 6 play for equating "there is not exactly one scum" to "there is all town", which I did do. That's because the possibility that Radja and KTS are BOTH scum is very remote. If you (like me) came to the conclusion that there is not exactly 1 scum on the team, Occam's razor suggests that it being all town is far more likely than scum pulling some risky WIFOM gambit and putting multiple partners on the team. (Also, scum probably still would have passed a 2-scum team.)

Overall, there's no substance to your scumread on me; it's all buzzwords and misapplied tells. I don't necessarily think you're scum for it, but you need to seriously reconsider some things or I will probably not be accepting your team. (Even if you reconsider and come to the same conclusions, that would still make me feel better.)

[Faalcon]

I stand by what I said on Ircher.
What's bothering me on Radja's sending is that it happened after he said "I have almost 4 days left to decide". Plus he doesn't even decide, he takes the first team someone adviced.
Anyway, it's a lesser part of my read on Radja.

You're most likely right on the OMGUS thing. I'm pretty new to mafia/resistance, and I encountered only bad ones for now.. Sorry about that.

Let's call it "forming a block", then. What I'm criticizing is that you're forming it with Radja, which is highly debatable. As is your original townread of Radja because he townread you. You also defended him in the voting phase, and now he starts being more scumread you start admitting he could be scum (#143), while still defending the all-town team. That I also find strange.

The Occam Razor works better when you don't have an already strong scumread on the guy choosing the team.

You're right on some things, but some of your posts are still awful (#104, #112), and your dynamic with Radja makes me uncomfortable. I'm still scumreading you.

[Radja]

This will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Something_Smart]

What do you dislike so much about 104 and 112?
104 is me misunderstanding mykonian. Mykonian was saying that Radja shouldn't have picked me, and I thought it meant that given his reads (including a townread on me) and the gamestate, he shouldn't have picked me. But really what it meant was that he shouldn't have had that townread on me in the first place, and I'm not sure why mykonian didn't say that.

112 is me half trolling and half expressing incredulity that anyone could actually reject a team for that reason alone. (A feeling later elaborated on in 146.)

BTW, I townread Radja because I know that scum have to make up inaccurate reads to win, and I knew that I was a prime target for a faked scumread, so I figured that Radja was genuinely seeing my towny play.
I still see that as the more likely possibility; however, I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of Radja-scum trying to add a scapegoat for his mission's failure.

And also BTW, it's wrong to say that Radja didn't choose the team just because he went with my suggestion. He chose it. He just happened to agree with me.

I want to stop responding to every point of every post but at the same time people are saying things that are so wrong they need to be corrected.