Mini 499: Just Your typical Mafia Game GAME OVER!!!!!!!!

[ChocolateAttack]

Cicero: i don't deny that the fact SSF action is scum like lurking and all that crap. What i was saying is you been pushing him from the beginning of the game and so far still persistent with your vote on him. On day one, when you shift your attention to Skitzer and voted him. If SSF was the mafia, he has a chance to kill you at night one.

When i said Jester death leave us no clue, it was not really groundless. From my way of thinking, he was too stand out to benefit to the town. Base from his scumdar, he quoted everybody, now because of this, it create a big advantage for the scum to kill him and yet still safely get away with it.

There is 2 scenarios about his kill and his play, if his scumdar was right and his vote on SSF was right, then there is no doubt SSF was Jester's killer.
Scenario number 2, if Jester was wrong, his killer was someone else, then i sure skitzer, skruff, SSF, shaka, white, theo and including me would all be fosed.

Mod Edit

Vote Count

cicero- 1 (Skruffs)
somestrangeflea- 1 (cicero)
White- 1 (HackerHuck)

Not Voting- 6 (ChocolateAttack, pwayne66, shaka!!, somestrangeflea, theopor_COD, White)

5 to lynch

[cicero]

Cicero: i don't deny that the fact SSF action is scum like lurking and all that crap. What i was saying is you been pushing him from the beginning of the game and so far still persistent with your vote on him. On day one, when you shift your attention to Skitzer and voted him. If SSF was the mafia, he has a chance to kill you at night one.

Yes. It was clear what you were saying. But this post adds nothing new and doesn't respond to what I said, even with a simple "yes I see your point." You've just reasserted the original assertion.

When i said Jester death leave us no clue, it was not really groundless. From my way of thinking, he was too stand out to benefit to the town. Base from his scumdar, he quoted everybody, now because of this, it create a big advantage for the scum to kill him and yet still safely get away with it.

You are right. We cannot draw any

definitive

conclusions from his death. It might have just been that he looked really townie. But I think if he was on a totally wrong track mafia might have been more inclined to keep him alive. Makes sense, no?

[/quote]
There is 2 scenarios about his kill and his play, if his scumdar was right and his vote on SSF was right, then there is no doubt SSF was Jester's killer.
Scenario number 2, if Jester was wrong, his killer was someone else, then i sure skitzer, skruff, SSF, shaka, white, theo and including me would all be fosed.[/quote]

How will we ever find out if Jester was right or wrong? Hmmmm....

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

[JordanA24]

Finding a replacement for Theo

[cicero]

One thing I do find troubling in this game is that there seems to be some fear of the Flea wagon even from people who find it troubling. Obviously I have to rule out Skruffs who thinks I'm king of all scum, but since White is in the process of getting replaced, but a number of players in this game have admitted they think Flea's play has been scummy.

My case against him on day one was pretty smart, under it AlyG was town - and he came up town. Flea since then has sailed along actively lurking and OMGUSSING.

Now I have no certainty that Flea is scum, but a little pressure there sure wouldn't hurt anything. It was no problem getting bandwagons on dumbass noobs that turn out town, of course.

So since:
- Flea's case against AlyG was scummy and filled with bad bent logic that seemed disingenuous
- AlyG turned up town
- The townie looking guy investigating Flea turned up dead.
- Flea has only ever OMGUSSed since then and
- has no actual appetite for scumhunting.
- and just actively lurks.
- and a bunch of you agrees that he looks really scummy..

Can we not please, vote Flea?

I'm not saying he's the only scum in the game. I'm saying he's probably ONE OF THE SCUM in the game. We have a good case. Let's go with it.

[pwayne66]

I'd like to hear his case from your POV. I don't know if there is anything besides active lurking IMHO. I'm too lazy to do a PBPA right now(even thought it would probably only take 10 minutes...) but I could do one tonight. What is your case?

[pwayne66]

nevermind...I'll do a PBPA...still I'd like to hear though...

[cicero]

nevermind...I'll do a PBPA...still I'd like to hear though...

Im not re-stating it. I posted it at some length the first time. It was all about whether his reaction to AlyG looked like honest thinking or bullshit. and to me it smelled like a big pile of bull. Not like something someone would actually think, but how someone who wanted to look like they were hunting would look. He then compounded it by having his only responses be OMGUS and active lurking. After that there are no other scumtells, because a man who doesn't do much doesn't show much.

[somestrangeflea]

Cicero's tunneling has me a little worried. SSF was one of my suspects, but I'm also getting a wierd feeling about how Cicero is playing his cards.

I love you.

Cicero, I am of the opinion that trying to guess the rationale behind NK is so WIFOMy that it becomes a null tell.

- Flea's case against AlyG was scummy and filled with bad bent logic that seemed disingenuous

Such as..?

- AlyG turned up town

So, town aren't allowed to be wrong,

ever?

- The townie looking guy investigating Flea turned up dead.

I won't argue with that. Jester was a solid player, and it sucks to see him dead. But, and without going into heavy WIFOM territory, how does incriminate me?

- Flea has only ever OMGUSSed since then and

My last vote for you was removed on the 11th October, almost one whole month ago. I then voted for Kakeng, who was not voting, and has never voted for me. I then voted for skitzer, who was voting for you, and has

never

voted for me, so that's not OMGUS either.
Your use of the phrase "only ever" is complete and utter BS.

- has no actual appetite for scumhunting.

Prove it.

- and just actively lurks.

See above.

- and a bunch of you agrees that he looks really scummy..

This is an Appeal to Majority, and not an argument.

[pwayne66]

6- Random Votes pwayne
20- Votes AlyG for:

Why did you feel the need to random vote when you actually had a suspect for what you claimed were real reasons? That looks to me as though you're trying to "fit in", and Town shouldn't have to try.

27- asks CLA to explain his cicero vote
34- Tells AlyG that he should vote instead of random vote + FoS
35- Explains why he is voting AlyG
80- I ain't lurking!
82- FOS CLA

CLA has come under fire simply for not responding to posts directed at him. IMO, there are situations where a lurkervote is acceptable. However, I don't want lynch-1 on page 4...

123- Won't comment until CLA does
196- "apologies" for being quite...conversational game...blah blah blah
213- Votes Cicero. For saying that SSF is pushing a bandwagon.
asks guppy why he is voting for him
223- I'm baaaacckk
225- Some scum have a tendancy to buddy up to townies (skruffs? is that you?)
Gup is unoriginal and a OMGUSer. Votes Guppy. Admits it was OMGUS on his part.
231- Suspicious that Gup didn't reply to any of cicero's comments. Asks gup to reply to cicero and theo
236- Tells gup to answer the question and stop buckling
237- rephrases this ^^
243- Thinks gup is an ass
263- Tells cicero that if he doesn't like lurking, then prod.
You don't have anything on me aside from lurking
Unvotes
268- inconsistancey is fine.
284- Waiting for Jalyn
294- Pings!
331-

Unvote
Vote: AlyG
Lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk, lurk...

351- Are you a backup of a specific role?
354- Normally backups are specific
361- White said that, not me
379- Doubts that Alyg will post more, following AlyG vote of him.
390- Stands by his reason's for lurking
395- AlyG isn't inactive! He's not contributing and avoiding replacement
400- Cicero has no case on me. He finds a reason to mention me all the time
Vote:Cicero
405- Says he will stop OMGUSing and start scumhunting. Ask Cicero for some specifics
407- Game theory and general arguing with Cicero
410- Emotional post?:

cicero wrote:
No. You really haven't. Do you mean you are planning to?

No, I mean I have, you're just annoyed because it's you that I'm going for.

cicero wrote:
Because your case against Aly was ridiculous.

Is this a widely held viewpoint?

cicero wrote:
Discussion: Who we should lynch.
Irrelevant Response: I like pizza
Relevant Response: I haven't stopped suspecting Flea.

No...

Discussion: I don't think AlyG would fakeclaim.
Your response: Let's lynch flea.

Discussion: You want to lynch an uncountered power role?
Your response: Yes. Also, here's something Flea said, that is unrelated to Aly's claim.

White wrote:
Of course not. You wouldn't vote for White until he voted for you. After that though, he'd better watch out. You're the OMGUS king, dude.

Precisely, because White hasn't bombarded me with bullshit.

shaka!! wrote:
Flea was the Obv OMGUS remark after your vote referring to yourself or Cicero?

It was about myself, but was a sarcastic reference to the fact that cicero believes that everything I do is OMGUS, hence the wink...

445- Thinks BM is scummy but has a hard time reading him.
467- Sarcastic "really??" about pwayne observations of Cicero.
478- Opens don't count as minis
506- Answers question from jester:

1. During this period, IIRC, nothing was actually directed at me.
2. "Breaking into" a conversation which is advancing at such a rate isn't as easy as you might think, and nothing really caught my eye enough to entice me into trying...

532- Gup's play was scummy. Replacements haven't contributed. Sides with white in white v. cicero. This game has volitile players (me,cicero,white,bm,&pg)
535-Clarifies a statement for cicero
539- More clarification
541- Sarcastic "S**T!" towards white's post count padding comment.
581- Answers some questions from jester. Gives post 410 as an example of him not being calm.
607- Sarcasm for pwayne's "got rope. will hang". Votes Kakeng

We've got rope, and we're bored...

630- Accuses Cicero of poor play and not searching for other suspects.
644- admonishes shaka for lynching jordan.
650- questions skitzer's "bad wagon" comment.
693- Is caring less and less about this game. cicero is tossing his name around unneccarilly. Continues to vote for cicero b/c cicero is more and more scummy.
711- Votes Kakeng. Doubts he can be replaced
725- Votes Skitzer to move game along?
727- Apologies for "surely you must know" comment. Thinks that skitzer is rolefishing? (INTERUPTION:WHo is thesp anyway?)
739- I'm using the idea of 3 backups to refute skitzer.
747- Skitzer was gonna swing anyway.
752- Normally Modkills end the day
764- requests thoughts from HH
794- Sorry but I will be gone a while.
821- I is back! Gorgon was vigged and jester was killed by scum and SK. Limited shot vig?
I'm not sure what this is about:

Skruffs wrote:
you are voting me for incorrectly out-guessing the mod.

To be fair, I don't see that as a particularly bad reason to be voting for someone. You pushed a point which eventually turned out to be false, which is what the Mafia are trying to do.

825- Clarifies statement for skruffs.

Actions by somestrangeflea:

* somestrangeflea votes pwayne66 in post 6
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 20
* somestrangeflea votes alyg in post 20
* somestrangeflea suspects cla in post 82
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 213
* somestrangeflea votes cicero in post 213
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 225
* somestrangeflea votes prof guppy in post 225
* somestrangeflea votes count in post 225
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 263
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 331
* somestrangeflea votes alyg in post 331
* somestrangeflea unvotes in post 400
* somestrangeflea votes cicero in post 400
* somestrangeflea votes count in post 400
* somestrangeflea votes kakeng in post 607
* somestrangeflea votes kakeng in post 711
* somestrangeflea votes skitzer in post 725


Enjoy.

[cicero]

Cicero's tunneling has me a little worried. SSF was one of my suspects, but I'm also getting a wierd feeling about how Cicero is playing his cards.

I love you.

Cicero, I am of the opinion that trying to guess the rationale behind NK is so WIFOMy that it becomes a null tell.

Good. Then you and I agree that me being alive doesn't point to you being townie. Please be sure to tell ChocolateAttack that.

- Flea's case against AlyG was scummy and filled with bad bent logic that seemed disingenuous

Such as..?

Such as in the case I initially made against you which interested parties can read by using the drop down menu and reading my posts on the subject starting at my 19, 21 and particularly 23. Incidentally clicking the tiny white square in the upper left of any post will open the whole thread so you can see things in context.

- AlyG turned up town

So, town aren't allowed to be wrong,

ever?

Of course they can. I could still be totally wrong about you. If you had acted townier after My Posts 19-23 you and I would probably be off holding hands and scumhunting together. Gorgon certainly pulled the wool over my eyes, as did Pwayne in the game I played with him. Scumhunting is damn hard. And I hate tunnel vision. For all I know you are a crucial role to the town and will some day save us all. But I look at the other cases and what shall I do? I have to follow the best case I see. My point is that in my *initial* theory (before AlyG went lurker) I saw him as ambushed town and I saw your scum attack on him as disingenuous.

- The townie looking guy investigating Flea turned up dead.

I won't argue with that. Jester was a solid player, and it sucks to see him dead. But, and without going into heavy WIFOM territory, how does incriminate me?

I dont have anything to add to this that I didn't already say in response to ChocolateAttack in the last few pages. Why are you pretending I haven't addressed this issue? It's hardly a smoking gun. But it's just yet another scumtell.

- Flea has only ever OMGUSSed since then and

My last vote for you was removed on the 11th October, almost one whole month ago. I then voted for Kakeng, who was not voting, and has never voted for me. I then voted for skitzer, who was voting for you, and has

never

voted for me, so that's not OMGUS either.
Your use of the phrase "only ever" is complete and utter BS.

Your right. I really do apologise. What I should have done is double clicked on "actively lurking" so that people could see the subheading: votes on the easy and available bandwagons of people who are town or (in the case of kakeng) likely to pop up town.

- has no actual appetite for scumhunting.

Prove it.

No. You'll prove it yourself. Could everyone pleas go look at Flea's posts in the dropdown menu and make up your own minds. Otherwise I'd have to just post all your posts in one long post with comments saying "excuse for lurking" and "defense" etc. You pop out to defend yourself or climb on a bandwagon and that's about it. You arent the only one, of course. As I said - it's just one more scumtell. You did originally have quite the desire to hunt when you bandwagoned AlyG so I know you have it in you. It just went away after that backfired.

Who do you like in the Pwayne vs. Skruffs argument and why? What do you think of Skruffs overall? What do you think of White? Who do you think are scum in this game - and why?

- and just actively lurks.

See above.

People will have to read for themselves. Your play is defensive and you are avoiding taking stands when you can.

- and a bunch of you agrees that he looks really scummy..

This is an Appeal to Majority, and not an argument.

Yes... I am appealing to the majority. I am not using there suspicion of you as evidence against you. I'm asking them to follow through on their suspicions and the best case we, in my opinion, currently have.

[pwayne66]

@SSF- What I see right off the bat is intentional lurking and a flippant attitude towards it. Several "joking" OMGUSs also. These are basic scumtells but you seem to do them deliberately. Why?

[ChocolateAttack]

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

Sorry dude! i was totally miss your question (twice). Lol! Anyway, the answer is simple, i didn't suspect Pwanye and i didn't have to look over it.

[ChocolateAttack]

[quote="cicero"]
You are right. We cannot draw any

definitive

conclusions from his death. It might have just been that he looked really townie. But I think if he was on a totally wrong track mafia might have been more inclined to keep him alive. Makes sense, no?
quote]

No! what happened if the killer decided to kill Jester to make an WIFOM case to the town?
He could have kill Jester and frame it on SSF because everybody know Jester voted SSF. Do you think SSF would be that stupid to kill Jester? But if SSF killed you than he would get away with it because you were onto Skitzer. See here, if SSF was the mafia, you would been a better target for Jester.

[ChocolateAttack]

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

Sorry dude! i was totally miss your question (twice). Lol! Anyway, the answer is simple, i didn't suspect Pwanye and i didn't have to look over it.

correction: i didn't have time to look over it.

[cicero]

You are right. We cannot draw any

definitive

conclusions from his death. It might have just been that he looked really townie. But I think if he was on a totally wrong track mafia might have been more inclined to keep him alive. Makes sense, no?
quote]

No! what happened if the killer decided to kill Jester to make an WIFOM case to the town?
He could have kill Jester and frame it on SSF because everybody know Jester voted SSF. Do you think SSF would be that stupid to kill Jester? But if SSF killed you than he would get away with it because you were onto Skitzer. See here, if SSF was the mafia, you would been a better target for Jester.

This is WIFOM gone mad now. Yes. I do in fact think SSF would be "stupid" enough to kill Jester. Somestrangeflea has a message for you though. He says that NK activity is a null tell and who died last night doesn't make him a townie.

Maybe you should go back to just analyzing his play?

If you must stay in WIFOM land though:
- Two people pressed Flea. One of them is dead.
- The one that is dead is the less controversial of the two players.
- Me reluctantly voting Skitzer hardly deleted from anyone's mind my considerable suspicion of Flea throughout Day 1. Me voting Skitzer would not have erased that from anyone's mind.

I also don't think you remotely answered my question to you with respect to Shaka.

[cicero]

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

Sorry dude! i was totally miss your question (twice). Lol! Anyway, the answer is simple, i didn't suspect Pwanye and i didn't have to look over it.

correction: i didn't have time to look over it.

You SAID you went back and looked at Shaka's play. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

[ChocolateAttack]

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

Sorry dude! i was totally miss your question (twice). Lol! Anyway, the answer is simple, i didn't suspect Pwanye and i didn't have to look over it.

correction: i didn't have time to look over it.

You SAID you went back and looked at Shaka's play. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

I did go back and reread all Shaka posts and that was this morning. Your question is just stupid.

[Skruffs]

I'm kind of confused - what is it that you feel Shaka has said that CA missed, Cicero?

[Skruffs]

Mainly because you are all over the place. You seem to be throwing anything that you can and seeing if it sticks. It seemed as though the referenced quote represented a shift in position. That's all. If you don't believe me, consider, Since I had voted for you, your OMGUS tirade against me includes:

Guess what: I am not a very secretive person. I analyze things, Out Loud, and I do really well when people I am suspicious of acknowledge my questions and answer them. I have suspicions of a player, those suspicions are based on what I see as a puzzle piece. I wiggle that piece aroudn, try it in different ways, forms, see if it fits. If it doesn't; I put it away and find another puzzle piece. That's how I, personally, scumhunt. I like to believe that the only things that "Stick", are the things that 'fit'. That might be intimidating to scum. I understand that. If it really bothers you, clean up your act.

Also, why is it you only ask for prods of players you aren't voting? You didn't ask for a prod on White until you changed your vote to me, and then you didn't ask for a prod on me, either. Small small scumtell.

I have asked you to explain this "scum tell" but you haven't.

Unless you have a definite reason for voting someone, you are probably using your vote to cast suspicion. Scum want a player to be lynched, a town player that is, whereas town want to find scum and lynch them. So town will want the players that they are suspicious of to respond to questions. Scum want to limit the town's chances of defending themselves. Asking for a prod on a player only after you unvote tem, and not asking for a prod on a player that is obviously not around (as compared to aroudn but ignoring you), is a small scum tell in my book.

I would doubt you would find anything suspicious of yourself, you are probably trying to act as unsuspiciously as possible.

Much like cicero yesterday, you seem interested in lynching good players and ignoring scummy ones.

I may be wrong, but Cicero is voting and suspicious of SSF. He has never voted you. I am not voting you now, as my orginal questions and suspicions have been satisfied. You seem hyper defensive and intent on mischaracterozing the situation.

I do tend to get mixed up about things, but... If I'm not mistaken...

Yeah, and Gorgon only recently became "Mafia Scum", too, Cicero. As of last week or so, he was "Townsperson" - one of the people you were warning against lynching. Also not looking good for you.

THe point about the different items was that, presumably, those are the items that he would have used as a backup, which, incidentally, gives us clues about the roles.


HackerHuck - welcome to the game. Kakeng was nearly lynched for lurking yesterday.

Other people I intend to look at: Theopor, somestrangeflea.

I significantly doubt Day 2 is going to people moping about, considering 25% of the town is dead now.

Vote : Cicero

For now, I feel fairly confident about this.

and I feel fairly confident about this, bad scumdar or not:

Vote: Skruffs

Let's see how this goes shall we

Yeah, okay, was worried there. He definitely vote me. And I'm curious why you said he didn't? Again, defending him?

One of the reasons I'm also adding Cicero to the mix is because of the way you were so nervous about a possible lynch-2 on Cicero early on in the game.

I have asked about this as well but haven't recieved an answer.

Vote: Cicero

B/C it is hardwired into my DNA.
****
So it looks lke AlyG and cicero are the early bandwagons...

Appeal to

Mod

if you haven't replaced Cicero already, I'm fine with him staying.
I'd like to hear why the asian is eager to bandwagon as well.
****
Is it me, or is AlyG at lynch -2?

I guess I mixed AlyG and Cicero up in my mind. I had a theory that you immediately voted Cicero to distance from him, and then got nervous when other people started voting him too.

I am still happy with voting cicero, though pwayne is high up there now.

I am having trouble understanding this. What is the case on Cicero? It seems that his case depends on me and mine on his.

Despite all of this, your case stands as follows:

1)Cicero and pwayne have been chummy.
2)Gorgon was chummy with everybody.
3)Gorgon was scum
therefore- cicero and pwayne are scum as well.

Cicero and I have been respectful of one another for explained reasons. I defended Cicero from BM's BS case. Cicero and I have both asked you questions about your suspicions yesterday. Are these similarities indicative a mafia plot?

I think it crosses over respectful. You played a game with each other; great. I respect HackerHuck and Jordan and Cicero, btu that doesn't mean I'm going to assume they are town or even give them the benefit of the doubt. Gorgon was chummy with most people, but he at least quoted most of hte other players, asked questions, or guided them in his attempt to look as pro town as possible. But not you guys; he didn't really focus on either of you, except to gently/nicely goad you into answering questinos that others had asked of you. He did this with other players too, but he ALSO asked questions, and such. The slip of you and him when you thought BM hammered PRof. Guppy strikes me to say that both BM and Prof Guppy was not on your sides - you both acted very surprised. Perhaps he was just tagging along with your 'alarmed' "Bm I think you just hammered!!", which was said as if you knew it was a mistake. This indicates to me that you both were saying that vocally to quietly cast reverse suspicion back to BM.

Cicero, for example, claimed that Prof. Guppy was most likely town. You also stated this. PRof Guppy was an obnoxious twit. I have previously stated this. Cicero's reasoning for not voting him was at first because Prof. Guppy was a "Townsperson" and thus should have been given the benefit of the doubt. (Also coincidentally, GORGON was a townsperson, which coupled with Cicero's blatant statement that Gorgon was town in his eyes, means that Cicero was setting himself up (and trying to set up the the town as well) to remove Gorgon from the line of suspicion). However, after I replaced in, his position on my role changed. Suddenly he didn't want to 'pick such low hanging fruit' so early in the game.
This is a big scum tell in my opinion, because, obviously, I won't be shown as town until later in the game, but it means that Cicero thought P.Guppy would be an EASY LYNCH later in the game, maybe after some of the tougher players had been nightkilled already. Remember how he wanted to give Erotmachia a free pass? Remember why? Suddenly his reasoning was dropped after I replaced in.
PWayne, you yourself stated that PGuppy was probably town, and you yourself still voted me. If the 'tells' you had on P.Guppy (despite his scummy behavior) convinced you he was town, why are you so willing to 'forget' about them when the player behind the role changes?

I hope I've answered your questions suitably.

So, a new round of questions for you:

1) Was the relationship between Gorgon and me more chummy than that of gorgon's relationships with everybody else? This is important. This is the keystone to your case, so you should really answer this.

2) Was I wrong to defend Cicero against BM's case?

3) What have cicero, gorgon and I agreed on?

1 - I may have answered this earlier. Gorgon was chummy with you adn Cicero in a way similar that you two are to each other and different than his over kindness and friendliness to the rest of hte players. He did NOT really interact with you the way he did with others - he did not seem as concerned about IMPRESSING his towniness ontot he two of you - and you two, in return, seem to have immediately taken him as town without asking many qusetions or questioning him.

2 - It depends. Do you think BM was town? And why did you feel it was necessary to take it onto yourself to defend someoen who's alignment has not been revealed on the first day? If cicero does result in being scum, that leads directly back to you. That's something that you could afford to do, though, if you feel that Cicero will most likely wind up as town. And you can only really think something like that if you have a reason to believe he's not scum. Which, day one, is hard to figure out, unless you already know who the mafia are, because you are one.

3-??? What have me and Chocolate Attack agreed on? I don'tunderstand the question.

[pwayne66]

3-??? What have me and Chocolate Attack agreed on? I don'tunderstand the question.

Is refering to this accusation.

I am more just curious why you side with cicero and gorgon on a lot of issues

PWayne, you yourself stated that PGuppy was probably town, and you yourself still voted me. If the 'tells' you had on P.Guppy (despite his scummy behavior) convinced you he was town, why are you so willing to 'forget' about them when the player behind the role changes?

To be honest, I never made the connection that you and Gup were technically the same person. I was doing a read through, found something interesting and acted on it. Voting may have been hasty, but I find it can be an effective tool sometimes. I don't think that it was in this instance, so I regret that.

My reasons for believing that guppy was town was this: he was exhibiting classic scumtells. It's been my experience that nobody exhibits classic scum tells as stupidly as gup unless they are morons or bored and want to generate discussion. I have never seen somebody that is blatantly wishy-washy turn out to be scum. I have never seen a a blatant wagon hopper be scum. 9 times out of 10, these activities are done by either newbie townies that don't have a clue or scummy veterans that are bored and want to mix it up. Newb scum are overly cautious. It seemed obvious to me what category gup fell in. This doesn't mean that I don't reserve the right to change my mind. Had I made the connection between you and gup it might have affected my perspective. But I still would ask questions.

[HackerHuck]

Pwayne, what are your thoughts on SSF? You seem to be stirring the pot with that lengthy post, but not really providing any analysis...

[pwayne66]

My thoughts are that he intentionally lurked early on and he had several OMGUS votes. As I expressed earlier about guppy, these are "classic scumtells" and with nearly 1000 posts, I guess I imagine that SSF falls into the bored vet category. I would still like him to answer my question though.
It is worth mentioning that while doing his PBPA, flea is responsible for 3 of our 35 pages. Nearly 10% and more than his share of the 12 people would require. But compared to me (5) pages and Cicero (7), SSF is lurking. No I can't measure the content of his posts. Either way, I get the distinct impression that Flea isn't giving this his all. Cicero has laid out this case (correct me if I am wrong).


-deliberate lurking.
I have addressed this.
-I wasn't impressed at his reasons for suspecting AlyG early in the game.
This is a toss up. At the time I think that it SSF's case made sence to me. Reading cicero's arguement aout it does cause me to reconsider, but it does little to show that there was malicous intent on SSF's part.

-In the first few pages AlyG was basically told to put his money where his mouth was, and if he didn't he must be scum. I disagree completely.

I am reluctant to follow this line of thinking. The earliness of this play (SSF votes right away and only makes a few posts justifing his vote, he didn't push the issue) cause me to believe it was early game pot stirring.

-He could have voted for Theo and been accused of impetuous OMGUSsing
This is true. And a good point. Had SSF pushed for AlyG's lynch with any vigor, I would agree that this conudrum was exploited for scummy intentions. I didn't see that happen.

-SSF's OMGUSing. This strikes me a curious. He knows that he is acting scummy in these instances. I'm not sure if he thinks by stating "obvOMUG" he is dismissing the scumtell or he really doesn't care.

-Jester's death. I'm kinda Meh, on this point. Both Cicero and Jester were pursuing SSF. If they both lived, then SSF didn't NK because it would be too obvious, Jester dies it is because he was onto SSF and I imagine the same would be said if Cicero were dead (but was still alive enough to make the argument...). Also, Jester gave a lot of guys a hard time, none as hard SSF, but still, a good number of people could feasibly have benefited from his death.

So my feelings of SSF. I wish he would play with purpose. I don't see too much that is really scummy, but then again, if you don't do much, your not going to anything scummy. I pushed him on active lurking earlier. And I have asked him about this. That being said, the active lurking and the OMGUS votes are the only case that seems to exist against anybody. I could go for a lynch here if the act doesn't stop, but I really want to hear from our other guys/replacements first.

[cicero]

There seems to be a tendency we have to ignore ChocolateAttack because of his short infrequent posts, apologetic friendliness, and garbled english (sorry CA, no offense intended). I'm trying to remedy that a bit and bring him out into the open.

When asked about Pwayne and I he only answered about me.

But the other thing that happened was that I wrote in post 832

And I think Shanba and Chocolate Attack are below the radar.

In Chocolate Attack's response he wrote:

Shaka like me, as Cicero said, laying under the radar. I kinda suspicious of him. I went back and read his posts. His posts until this point doesn't really said anything.

FOS: Shaka

Now there's a difference between currently being below the radar and having "his points until this point doesn't really said anything."

It's a quibble but one I want to highlight. When I wrote what I did I hadnt gone back to do a re-read. CA said he did. I thought that that seemed to be a strong statement because at one point I remembered Shaka threatening to "put his boot in my ass". So I went back and read. While he is clearly in the lower tier of contributors his contribution aren't completely vaccuous.
The other interesting thing is that the last time ChocolateAttack mentioned Shaka he said he was "active and seems town".

So then I asked him why he was ignoring answering my questions and you can see the exchange below:

Finally, ChocolateAttack, please answer post 842. Why have you ignored it?

Sorry dude! i was totally miss your question (twice). Lol! Anyway, the answer is simple, i didn't suspect Pwanye and i didn't have to look over it.

correction: i didn't have time to look over it.

You SAID you went back and looked at Shaka's play. Were you lying then or are you lying now?

I did go back and reread all Shaka posts and that was this morning. Your question is just stupid.

So he first says that he just went back and looked at Shaka's posts. Then he says he didn't. Then he says he did and calls me stupid. Not so friendly once pressed.

Want to clarify any of this, ChocolateAttack?

(None of this should be seen as clearing Shaka of suspicion at all. I'm just probing an unprobed area. )

[pwayne66]

Gorgon came out of nowhere at one point to defend SSF, but later on SSF showed up as scum in Gorgon’s list. Out of that scum list, SSF is the only one I could see Gorgon trying to bus. Looking at Gorgon’s interactions with SSF is also somewhat telling. At one point Gorgon chooses to “let SSF off the hook” and then turns around in that same post to ask BM what he thought about Cicero.

I forgot about this... Ill want to reread these exchanges before I commit to an SSF position.

[Skruffs]

Here's another thing: if I had died last night, trails would point back to cicero. I don't remember if cicero was 'on' me yesteray, but he certainnly seemed flustered.
Skitzer's 'cicero is going to kill skruffs tonight' would have been great for mafia to exploit by killing me, IF cicero wasn't in the mafia, unless they thought the doctor would protect me because it was so obvious. The sk could also have exploited that.

Instead both targetted jester, who was suspicious of ssf. Same situation, though really.