Mini Normal 1825 - Game Over

[pitoli]

Also I agree 70 is really bad, I can show multiple games where I died either N1 or N2 as town but that doesn't mean I'm scum if I live longer.

What did you think of this post? I honestly was surprised it barely got any attention as I thought it was pretty awkward. Her scumread of me is the first independent thought she's apparently had in this thread, but she still leaves her vote on gameplay.

I just took a shower and I got an idea.

I think Pitoli is a scum. She voted me for my non intro introduction and She didn't state that it was an RVS vote. Should I say that is scum hunting? Secondly, She is saying that I said that the argument between gameplay and br is

silly

which I know I didn't say that. There's a difference between silly and not serious.

Scum reading her rn.

But she's a null scum for me as this evidences are too low. But I am watching her rn.

[Naomi-Tan]

Also I'm not entirely sure that rb isn't baiting y'all to be on this wagon

This is true, I'm baiting people onto the wagon and seeing who has the worst reasons to be on the wagon. My scumread on gameplay was weak at best, I was just picking a wagon on the players currently active in the game without much regard for their actual alignment. Reasoning:

- Picking someone at random is a 75% chance that the wagon is on a town player, 25% it's on a scum player.
- If I hit a town player, I'm likely to get bad sheep (aka scum) jumping on the wagon
- If I hit a scum player, I'm likely to get good sheep (aka town) jumping on the wagon, and also some kind of chainsaw defence from scumbuddies

Either way, this is a thing that helps me and the town sort the alignments of myself, gameplay and anyone else who gets caught up in the mess. It was and is 100% bait - I think that gameplays interactions with me WERE bad but that it's too tenuous to actually wagon him all the way to a lynch, but I love me some big wagons early game because you learn a lot more than if the whole game just middles around with no clear direction. By playing such a forceful strategy, I force scum to interact with the game as well - if the scum's plan was to be lurky, they're forced to not be able to play the way they wanted. Ofc I can't know if scum wanted to play lurky or not, but if they did want to fly under the radar - they're not able to do that now.

And as far as I'm concerned, a town with any kind of direction is always going to function better than a town with NO direction.

What is the difference between a good sheep and a bad sheep and more importantly given your scum read was weak at best how can you tell those 'scum buddies' from those who see your weak vote and want to defend them and what if people just choose to vote you for this manuver? it didn't happen but this method seems extremely flawed! There is just so many veriables that have to fall right that this just seems bad not only that but you choose one of the strongest sheeps on you to vote after other people started to delve into there reasoning and singled them out what is this >_<

[pitoli]

@pitoli Do you think a town player would just go along with a wagon because they see someone as town though? What's the town motivation behind that?

This is my first game of forum mafia in 3 years, but I think I've seen it a few times.

Sometimes it happens when town is stupid, lazy, or just not very confident in their own reads. Sometimes it happens when you have a particularly popular or charismatic player who is leading the wagon. And sometimes, I think it can even happen when town wants a wagon to happen quickly to build pressure and get reactions. I'm not saying it's optimal town play, but I think it

can

come from town.

[rb]

Also I'm not entirely sure that rb isn't baiting y'all to be on this wagon

This is true, I'm baiting people onto the wagon and seeing who has the worst reasons to be on the wagon. My scumread on gameplay was weak at best, I was just picking a wagon on the players currently active in the game without much regard for their actual alignment. Reasoning:

- Picking someone at random is a 75% chance that the wagon is on a town player, 25% it's on a scum player.
- If I hit a town player, I'm likely to get bad sheep (aka scum) jumping on the wagon
- If I hit a scum player, I'm likely to get good sheep (aka town) jumping on the wagon, and also some kind of chainsaw defence from scumbuddies

Either way, this is a thing that helps me and the town sort the alignments of myself, gameplay and anyone else who gets caught up in the mess. It was and is 100% bait - I think that gameplays interactions with me WERE bad but that it's too tenuous to actually wagon him all the way to a lynch, but I love me some big wagons early game because you learn a lot more than if the whole game just middles around with no clear direction. By playing such a forceful strategy, I force scum to interact with the game as well - if the scum's plan was to be lurky, they're forced to not be able to play the way they wanted. Ofc I can't know if scum wanted to play lurky or not, but if they did want to fly under the radar - they're not able to do that now.

And as far as I'm concerned, a town with any kind of direction is always going to function better than a town with NO direction.

What is the difference between a good sheep and a bad sheep and more importantly given your scum read was weak at best how can you tell those 'scum buddies' from those who see your weak vote and want to defend them and what if people just choose to vote you for this manuver? it didn't happen but this method seems extremely flawed! There is just so many veriables that have to fall right that this just seems bad not only that but you choose one of the strongest sheeps on you to vote after other people started to delve into there reasoning and singled them out what is this >_<

Other people had fine reasoning. I was being honest when I said that gameplay looks like someone trying to force themselves to banter and be relaxed. I think that's evident regardless of gameplay's alignment here. I think them trying to discredit me and cut down my interaction is bad play, potentially scummy but not like a glaring scumtell.

Overall I highlighted these things and people commented on the stuff that went on - mostly people were focussed on the interactions between gameplay/ryan/me right? That's what town should/would do, focus on trying to sort the game. But Dierfire? He's just like, "well I don't have reads but I think rb is town so I'll sheep him" - cue alarm bells.

Of everyone who got on that wagon, Dierfire has by far the weakest stated reasoning and also, has thrown some shade around and is fence-sitting on a bunch of stuff. Their play is overall scummy. Also I think you're misunderstanding the intent of this strategy - of course it's imperfect, every strategy is imperfect early game as town because if there was a perfect strategy that anyone knew then town would always win, but they don't. But in spite of that I think it's important for town to have _A_ strategy and _A_ plan. Even if it's flawed, it's going to take you to where you need to get faster than milling about in uncertainty and letting scum control the flow of the game.

Like I said, ANY direction is better than NO direction.

This discussion isn't hugely fruitful though, what I'm more interested in is what your actual reads of gameplay/ryan/martha are. Throw me in there if you want to.

[rb]

Also I agree 70 is really bad, I can show multiple games where I died either N1 or N2 as town but that doesn't mean I'm scum if I live longer.

What did you think of this post? I honestly was surprised it barely got any attention as I thought it was pretty awkward. Her scumread of me is the first independent thought she's apparently had in this thread, but she still leaves her vote on gameplay.

I just took a shower and I got an idea.

I think Pitoli is a scum. She voted me for my non intro introduction and She didn't state that it was an RVS vote. Should I say that is scum hunting? Secondly, She is saying that I said that the argument between gameplay and br is

silly

which I know I didn't say that. There's a difference between silly and not serious.

Scum reading her rn.

But she's a null scum for me as this evidences are too low. But I am watching her rn.

I want to see what Martha says when they return before I share all my opinions of Martha.

[Naomi-Tan]

Yes It is about that time. So.. Part one will be a read list then I will have a follow up post shortly after

[rb]

Reads:

Naomi
Pitoli
golden009

gameplay
ryan
martha

dierfire

Scum is pink because red is mod colour.

Anyone not included I have to re-read.

[rb]

Cass/Chuck/Saru all need more activity. They need to start commenting on the main happenings of the game and to interact with other players.

Need to check up on:
Comparing Realities
Glitch

Both those players totally flew under my radar.

[rb]

Oh okay all 5 of those players have basically zero activity. I get it now.

Odds of scum being contained in those 5?

[pitoli]

Oh okay all 5 of those players have basically zero activity. I get it now.

Odds of scum being contained in those 5?

Yeah, it's why I've had a hard time solidifying my reads or even wanting to reveal them in thread. There are so many unknowns right now.

[Chuck]

VOTE: Chuck

Indicate alignment pls. Scum have already lost so let's just make this painless. Ty.

Town, but obviously I can't expect you to believe that or even pretend to believe that on Day 1. Worthless question. Maybe good for a reaction test but any scum could give an answer like this as well.

Well.. I guess I better start.. Hello everyone I'm Naomi, and I tend to play unsure of things and have a weird mind set. As town and scum I fear being lynched, which means I tend to do lots of LAMIST stuff. I never am too sure on my own thoughts but I try my best even if thats not so good. I tend to do shorter posts with a summery every so often and like to give bigger theories there own post though I'm never too sure of myself I like to at least try. I just don't feel im very good and just try to help anyway I can, weather that is drawing attention to activity or putting in read posts I wish to try my hardest.. but I'm still held back by my mindset as I struggle to not be afraid of being lynched and I know as town your not meant to as your doing nothing wrong, but I'm not very good at that at all so over compensate..

This is basically a long-winded excuse for doing scummy things in the future.

If your wondering why I'm just openily announcing this right at the start its because in my last town game it sorta came out naturally while I was sleepy in this really deep self reflective sorta conversation with another player (review My last game on the first 4 pages to see that naturally) and afterwards It helped me as I could point back to it and say; 'hey this is something I already pointed out I do, stop trying to use it as a scum tell' So.. as It kinda worked well and made others understand my thoughts sometimes I thought I'd just open with it this time.

And this is a similarly long-winded excuse for making the aforementioned excuse.

So yeah.. thats my introduction and I hope to have a good game.

Speaking of LAMIST;

the setup tells us that scum have day talk

if you missed it, so please bare that in mind over the game.

This part of the post reeks of Naomi trying to do two things:

1. Pointing out that scum have day talk, ostensibly for easy early town credit, since the unthinking townie response from someone who hasn't read the opening posts as closely might think, "Oh yeah, good point, thanks for pointing that out Naomi," and subconsciously label her as town, or at least, drop her into a town

ier

slot in their reads.

2. The bolded section is a not-too-well concealed hint that says "Hey everyone, just so it's very clear, I didn't learn that the scum have day talk from being part of a scum day talk thread; I learned it from the setup" which seems like a way to subtly reinforce her standing as town in people's heads. And the fact that she's already told us she's going to try to do that is a can of WIFOM and introducing that at the start of the game in such a fashion is nothing but scummy.

VOTE: Naomi-Tan

@Naomi - how am I supposed to interpret the fact that you'rre pre-announcing that you pre-announced this thing last game? I don't think LAMIST is a scumtell (it's NAI) and I find it weird that you'd be so on edge about this. Again conveniently explained that you're like this as both town AND scum but that's what scum would say too.

What's the reason you told us this?

Exactly my thoughts. Town points for rb.

VOTE: Naomi-Tan

Yes.

Nah get on my Chuck-wagon, Chuck-wagon is more fun!

Go for it if it'll help you determine my alignment, but you've already hit the nail on the head with Naomi.

Holy shit Chuck must be the newest old player ever witnessed.

Heh. It's a rare sighting of a rustbucket in its natural habitat. I have had a few accounts over the years but for the most part haven't played too many games. I figured it was time to shake the dust off this one because I never really used it.

Rb u seem shiat so no
Naomi u are one kawaii girl
VOTE: Ryan
Meanie

Why are you voting here when Naomi-Tan has already done things worthy of a serious vote? You have been around the site at least a few years, so I would expect you to at the very least comment on Naomi in some way other than saying she is kawaii. Choosing to not pay attention to her post in favor of making a (random?) vote on Ryan, who is voting for Naomi, could be a chainsaw attack. If she flips scum I expect you might be as well.

Chuck seems so cool omg
Chuck wanna be my senpai?

Why are you goofing off so much so early? And what sticks out to you about me that seems cool?

VOTE: Ryan

gameplay is good at the game, we're sheeping her now.

How do you know he's good at the game, if you haven't even got his gender right?

Don't worry, I have the charisma and ability to make the Ryan wagon strong. You'll still get your mislynch today

Do you think gameplay is scum?

O really?
Whoever finds more scum this game is better
You'll get rekt bud

Cute. I already found one scum and one town. What about you?

Mental note to see if rb follows up on this.

Thinking is gross. I've compartmentalized my thought and reason into a purely intuitive and automatic process that allows for the most efficient finding and exposing of scum.

Okay, your initial charm and pro-town-ness is losing it's luster rapidly.

RyanK, what's your thought on the exchanges between gameplay and me?

Very scummy.

Which of them seems scummy? Both? Just one?

This brief answer spreads around suspicion without spreading around reasoning, which has a net pro-scum benefit.

As strange as it sounds I actually like rb lol
I don't think newbscum would engage in such convo like that

I am thinking the same thing. What do you think of his vote on you later on page 2?



I will have to catch up more later. This game took off a little faster than I thought it would.

[Naomi-Tan]

1) Glitch - Has yet to post. So Null.

2) gameplay506 - They defended themselves well and I didn't think they was scum to begin with and The train on them was just bad

3) Comparing Realities - Has yet to post. So Null.

4) Saru - Anyone who makes me have to look up an iso to remember who they are really needs to be more active. However, there first post gave good reads and there look into a players meta was certainly a change of pace I dislike how they singled them out while Nulling most of everyone. Additionally they kinda acted friendly to me and rb who at this time. The Rb thing doesn't seem too natural as he has them on a town lean close to null and literally says that "His reasoning for scum reading Gameplay is somewhat of a reach" which I'm interupting as; I have no idea how this is scum hunting. Which is a strange thing to have in a town pile. I also find it weird that they looked up on one players meta out of the grouping but thats not really a reason alone.

5) pitoli - I think they are likely town they ask good questions and appear to be thinking about the game as it comes

7) Dierfire - I think they are also town. I additionally think they scum are hoping to single him out as an easy flip. out of all the sheep he was the only one who really spoke about other stuff when he appeared as others and myself pointed out it appeared half done but It showed he was at least thinking about the game

8) rb - They may be scum? Like there scum hunting seems kinda non-sensical and I just came out of a game with them where I was sure there slot was town this new play style just conflicts with his play style last game that I'm suspicious of him but thats mostly from my last experience, as he wasn't as egotistical and it looked much easier to follow.

9) RyanK - I think they also may be scum based on there early interacts with rb. he didn't really question or look deep into rb's thoughts and just flipped to sheep him pretty quickly after maybe one block of text joining a weak train at the drop of a hat.

10) golden009 - Nullish? I don't like how he inflamed dierfires train with a second post and vote on the matter and I find this more scummy than Saru as he was looking / talking about just the sheeping he did when it wasn't like no one else sheeped and ignored them all, it seems that they may have noticed our weird feelings and decided to try and push for them and thats kinda why I'm suspicious of them?

11) Chuck - waits 14 years, 4 months, and 17 days for this moment. and doesn't take the moment to post. maybe he was being literal and meant this particular 90 seconds. This is just a funny way of me saying they havn't posted since page one, NULL

12) Cass - okay doki he has said a bit and joined the train, but I'm not really so scum reading him. it looks like he was putting effort into understanding and talked a bit before going so... may be town may not and really I don't have a strong read here they need to post//comment more.

13) Martha Zolanski - and here is my number one scum read. more on that coming in my next post.

OMG this Pedit x5 combo! Okay this requires its own post. I'll do that after I read martha as promised please wait.

[pitoli]

why is so much of your post useless filler Chuck

[Naomi-Tan]

Martha Zolanski Expanded;
I first noticed this when looking for all the votes on the gameplay506 that Martha flip flopped more than a pendulum so they have voted for 3 different people over the game so far (24 hours ish) however they did so in a peroid of around 4-5 hours. ignoring the RVS then we still have them firstly sheeping rb with a post that literally added nothing pretty much joining the train to 'see what happened' and there posts havn't partially inputted. now this is early but given there 2 serious votes over 24 hours and joining the train with what I believe is the weakest reasoning they are who I believe to be most likely to be scum. however, it is still early day 1 and I understand that this may change later however, until then I believe that Its time to vote. this isn't to say that others should vote for her unless they also believe this.

VOTE: Martha Zolanski

[rb]

why is so much of your post useless filler Chuck

[rb]

Naomi what about Dierfire's responses indicate he's thinking about the game?

Everything Dierfire has done has been very easy shade-throwing and sheeping. Like all of their posts indicate the exact opposite of thinking about the game but you townread them because they're thinking about the game? What?

[Naomi-Tan]

1. Pointing out that scum have day talk, ostensibly for easy early town credit, since the unthinking townie response from someone who hasn't read the opening posts as closely might think, "Oh yeah, good point, thanks for pointing that out Naomi," and subconsciously label her as town, or at least, drop her into a townier slot in their reads.

You mean that move that I pointed out at the time was LAMIST is........ LAMIST holy shit your batman.

2. The bolded section is a not-too-well concealed hint that says "Hey everyone, just so it's very clear, I didn't learn that the scum have day talk from being part of a scum day talk thread; I learned it from the setup" which seems like a way to subtly reinforce her standing as town in people's heads. And the fact that she's already told us she's going to try to do that is a can of WIFOM and introducing that at the start of the game in such a fashion is nothing but scummy.

Okay so I added this line so people knew that it was in the setup and didn't get confused and thought I was scum because people sometimes do skip this and there is even proof in the thread.

...
Speaking of LAMIST; the setup tells us that scum have day talk if you missed it, so please bare that in mind over the game.

Naomi-Tan, how did you know scum has day talk?
VOTE: Naomi-Tan

Fos:

gameplay506

Though it didn't work. as someone still got confused.


As for why I posted it, in my last game town had day talk and people missed it, so someone in the game pointed it out and someone didn't notice it in the setup so this time I thought i'd let town know and yes this was incredibly LAMIST.

You also quoted two other things that I said where I explained my mentality as a player. The fact that you decided to use this as a reason to vote is kinda terrible. I admitted that I do these things and do it as both town and scum and your like; "THERE SETTING UP FOR EXCUSES EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION!!" when I literally said thats JUST what I was doing. and if you'd like to know where I point out that I have every intent of doing this you merely have to read the second paragraph; 'hey this is something I already pointed out I do, stop trying to use it as a scum tell' So... Not sure what your trying to accomplish pointing out things I have openly admitted like what the heck do you want me to say?? Well the only thing I can say is yes; you have read and understand that post well done. Shall we move on?

[rb]

I'm assuming Chuck will do a catch-up on the other 200 posts?

p-edit: Naomi your opening post WAS very bad and there's like 5 people at least who didn't like it. By basic math it's impossible they're all scum and I don't think people are terrible for disliking your opening post. At absolute best it's just wifom and NAI and at worst it's scum misdirection. Nothing in your opening post suggests town necessarily so people have a good reason to dislike it. I don't think you're scum but that doesn't mean I like every post you make.

[pitoli]

Chuck, please see re: Naomi

I'm not very satisfied by her quoting from her initial post, no. It still feels like she's setting up a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape suspicion if she does some anti-town things.

I have a feeling it may just be a null, something she could pull as any alignment. She had a similar introduction in Mini 1625, where she was town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6382331

[rb]

@Chuck: so you think Naomi is scum and that's fine. Once you've caught up with the rest of her posts, tell me what your read of her is.

[pitoli]

Rb, could you talk to me about how you sorted golden?

[rb]

I can't see anything wrong with any of their posts. I don't even feel compelled to question them on anything, they just make sense.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay RB let me break down the post;

Hello everyone! It's nice to see some familiar names, and some new friends as well.

I am liking the look of this wagon on gameplay506.

VOTE: gameplay506

Principally this is a Town read on rb more than a Mafia read on gameplay506.

This is a pretty poor reason which is something I have no issue with other players taking issue with and isn't what I'm going to focus on.

I don't like the entrance from golden009 in 84, as he fails to comment on the wagon, which to me appears to be the most important feature of the game thus far.

This shows he is paying attention to other people when Golden entered he focused on my post 7 meta post and entirely ignored most of the games content.

I see something somewhat similar by Martha in 71, but this is partially mitigated by 79, 82, and 92.

Here you can see him comparing two peoples entrance and commenting how someone did a late RVS but then comments on how its kinda okay as she spoke about it shortly after.

I don't mind the reactions from pitoli (98) or Naomi-Tan (119), which address the matter directly.

and here he is talking again about the train.

This shows that he has reviewed each player and there thoughts on the train before making his choice to join it though he was non-commital about it. its still better than what some other people have done with there posts. :/

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay does NAI mean Non-Alignment Indicative?

[rb]

Like I said Naomi's post WAS bad. Gameplay is being sketchy af and Dierfire's sheeping and reasoning for sheeping is awful.

Going from Naomi to being suspicious of gameplay's style of discrediting the most vocal player in the game, not even trying to ascertain my motives and instead just jumping straight to 'rb is butthurt bad player' is really gross from a player who's apparently decent and/or experienced. Dierfire's vote WAS terrible.

Golden009 picked up on all the important thing I'd expect a town player to have picked up on upon entering and reading this thread. They're town for now.

p-edit: @Naomi: you do realise that all Dierfire did in his post 131 is throw a bunch of shade and then fence-sit?

"I don't mind the reactions", "I don't like this, but it's mitigated by...."

Dierfire is doing literally nothing in this game, they're not solving it by a longshot. If they're town, they're a townbeard. If they're scum, they're buddying. Neither one is favourable.

~

Yes NAI is Non-Alignment Indicative.