Newbie 1737 - Game Over

[kuror0]

Still, you should give us your scummate

[SkiddishRaddish]

Please let me know if I'm forgetting something in my posts because it feels like I am.



Firstly, this could be just linguistic, but it hasn't been sitting well with me and I'd like to mention it in case I get lynched so others can keep it in mind:

Spoiler:

By random questioning I wasn't assuming he meant questions like playstyle questions and stuff like that. I'm assuming that he meant asking questions like "so who do you think is scum and why?" and then comparing later on to see if that person's reads have some consistency or are erratic.

Read consistency

is VERY VERY overrated.

2SR:
This is the Aly Raisman read - as in, the obvious second favorite to be proved right. There's a pretty

consistent

pattern of worrying behaviour from my 2SR, which I've briefly touched on in my posts and will try to remember to cite when the weekend rolls around.

@DE: Raddish

is

playing it on the safe side, and that's some of what I scumread there, but the biggest thing is her approach to the game. I see that specifically in her approach to me, because I'm a little bit self-centred, but it's no less valid for that:
Raddish has

consistently

tried to undermine me without coming straight out and attacking me. That almost always says Scum.

-----

The only scum note I made on Platinum so far is that he agreed with Oacenth’s request to goodmorning to reveal her readings, even though she clearly noted that she’d share them once someone tried to guess at them.

@Goodmorning, I would like an official count of what your reads were, why, and what your reads are right now.

An interesting juxtaposition.

Hypocrisy isn't necessarily a scumtell.

If you need me to explain this point let me know, but hopefully the blue font can get across what I'm picking up on.

[SkiddishRaddish]

@Goodmorning

:

Spoiler:

It's a continuation of the extended metaphor.

Oh, I know, I just wanted to make that joke.
But seriously, if you're town, this game might make you reevaluate the sorbets you've been eating.

2. That's because I need to see your flip first.

Well, surely at this point you have ideas, you're just not telling. But you seem to have a general "no associations before lynch policy" so fair enough.

But I really don't want to discuss this, because there's something I want to say but only if/when Raddish gets lynched.

Please know that if your statement is something along the lines of “I eventually read SR as somewhat-townie (but wanted to make sure and I wanted to see who would jump on the bandwagon), I will be side-eyeing you from the death thread.

Or it could be that nmego connection you seemed to voicing in posts 247-249. What was up with that btw?

@Everyone: (btw the timing of Raddish's Wolf intent is super opportunistic)

What about that vote seemed opportunistic to you?

Why didn’t you find Map Wolf’s vote on me opportunistic?

[SkiddishRaddish]

@Kurur0

:

No harm done.

There is no scumpartner bro.

Spoiler:

This was your idea, your statement. Doesn't have anything to do with Platinum guess at gm's read. He guessed Oacenth was a scum suspect for gm and you were the one suggesting the scum team. So don't shake it out like it wasn't something you didn't do by yourself. next

So here you're scumming me for trying to generate original analysis, but then below you're scumming me for trying to sheep? Pick your argument.

Cheap AtE(Appeal to Emotion). //I hope i got that acronym or w/e it is called right.

Now that’s an acronym I didn’t know of. But if/when I flip, you’ll realize I was being completely honest.

-I got nowhere on the first post that you could possibly had Platinum as your most towny player so far. Where was I supposed to get that idea if you never said anything of why you find him town? Instead noted the thing he did that struck you as scummy. And that's on your towniest read which is pretty much exactly the same you did on the other town reads.

True I didn’t state why I found Platinum townie (if I recall it was somewhat gut at that point), but you already have an explanation for why I highlighted my one scum note.

-now explain me how was I supposed to know you had Dongem as scummy by association and Lmk null if you literally used the same paragraph to describe them both.

I didn’t, I accidentally cut out the paragraph from the original post that explained my connecting Dongempire to Oacenth. Unless you mean something else.

-I should have known Galagya was a null for you because you "had no notes of them that suggest mafia" despite your highest town read having scum notes?

Everyone

but Galagya had at least one note in my google doc, it seemed odd.

Considering that you specifically asked for my reads, why didn’t you bring up all these concerns back then?

So yeah I dislike that kind of reads because you may or may not have come up with the new reads just now and those old reads allow you to move to wherever you want. and that's why they don't have weight when I said you were ready to sheep gm. At this point you could pretty much come up with whatever reason you want to vote for someone or jump on a wagon or make new reads and those reads that were made since page 90 could be manipulated to look like you were thinking about it since the begging.
...
-First paragraph is already addressed because you don't have to twist too much that read list to match almost any other read.

So basically you’re not going to believe me no matter what I say at this point?

But you didn’t answer the question. Do you honestly think I would have been able to pull off sheeping if that was my intent in asking Goodmorning so much?

-Seems some people are ready to sheep gm reads and have been preparing for a while.

So you were only actually talking about me back then?

Anyways with that said I'm ready to vote for skiddish but let's try to get more info first.

No writeup on Galagya? Are you leaving it out to push for my lynch?

[SkiddishRaddish]

@LmkGuy

:

Spoiler:

I also had some iffy feelings about nmego, but changed once boring took over. I just re-read her ISO and feel less confident on my townread tho (still townlean though)

What makes you less confident in your read?

@Platinum_Fleece

:

Spoiler:

Thanks for your answer, I feel like I've learned how to be a much better player with it.

Now your responses for my questions were pretty understandable, and I'd be willing to townread most of it, until this post:

What did you otherwise find townie from the posts?

This post actually gave me a bit of insight on how you viewed goodmorning's actions towards you. To me, it feels like you're convinced from the first few posts she made about being suspicious of you that gm would always be reading you as if you were scum, instead of having the possibility that she might be trying to find reasons from you to change her mind.

But I mean, does it seem like to you that Goodmorning is legitimately looking for those possibilities?

@Boring

:

Spoiler:

Please don’t forget my questions in post 255.

[SkiddishRaddish]

VOTE: Map Wolf

I found Oacenth in the slot scummy for her behavior, and I think your posts have rather worsened that read with your short answers that barely defend yourself or not providing answers to questions with hard proof. You seem to try to just post enough to avoid low activity, which is not conducive to good scumhunting, or just a good fun game in general. If you flip innocent then I truly apologize, but we need to lynch and get 100% factual info and I want to make a vote in case I don't have much time to do so tomorrow or Sunday.

THIS PUTS MAP WOLF AT L-1.

Please allow Map Wolf at least another post or 24 hours to make their case before hammering.

@ Everyone!!!

[grapes]

VC 112

Map Wolf (4):

Dongempire, LmkGuy, Galagya, SkiddishRaddish

SkiddishRaddish (3):

goodmorning, boring, Map Wolf

Not Voting:

platinum_fleece, kuror0

With 9 votes in play, 5 are needed to lynch.
There's (expired on 2016-09-12 08:55:02) until deadline.

[kuror0]

Spoiler:

This was your idea, your statement. Doesn't have anything to do with Platinum guess at gm's read. He guessed Oacenth was a scum suspect for gm and you were the one suggesting the scum team. So don't shake it out like it wasn't something you didn't do by yourself. next

So here you're scumming me for trying to generate original analysis, but then below you're scumming me for trying to sheep? Pick your argument.

Cheap AtE(Appeal to Emotion). //I hope i got that acronym or w/e it is called right.

Now that’s an acronym I didn’t know of. But if/when I flip, you’ll realize I was being completely honest.

-I got nowhere on the first post that you could possibly had Platinum as your most towny player so far. Where was I supposed to get that idea if you never said anything of why you find him town? Instead noted the thing he did that struck you as scummy. And that's on your towniest read which is pretty much exactly the same you did on the other town reads.

True I didn’t state why I found Platinum townie (if I recall it was somewhat gut at that point), but you already have an explanation for why I highlighted my one scum note.

-now explain me how was I supposed to know you had Dongem as scummy by association and Lmk null if you literally used the same paragraph to describe them both.

I didn’t, I accidentally cut out the paragraph from the original post that explained my connecting Dongempire to Oacenth. Unless you mean something else.

-I should have known Galagya was a null for you because you "had no notes of them that suggest mafia" despite your highest town read having scum notes?

Everyone

but Galagya had at least one note in my google doc, it seemed odd.

Considering that you specifically asked for my reads, why didn’t you bring up all these concerns back then?

So yeah I dislike that kind of reads because you may or may not have come up with the new reads just now and those old reads allow you to move to wherever you want. and that's why they don't have weight when I said you were ready to sheep gm. At this point you could pretty much come up with whatever reason you want to vote for someone or jump on a wagon or make new reads and those reads that were made since page 90 could be manipulated to look like you were thinking about it since the begging.
...
-First paragraph is already addressed because you don't have to twist too much that read list to match almost any other read.

So basically you’re not going to believe me no matter what I say at this point?

But you didn’t answer the question. Do you honestly think I would have been able to pull off sheeping if that was my intent in asking Goodmorning so much?

-Seems some people are ready to sheep gm reads and have been preparing for a while.

So you were only actually talking about me back then?

Anyways with that said I'm ready to vote for skiddish but let's try to get more info first.
No writeup on Galagya? Are you leaving it out to push for my lynch?

ok. I will address this now.

1(as in 1st paragraph). One thing is what you do and another is how you do it. I call you scummy for linking players not for making your own analysis which is what I have been trying to get from everyone from the start (even if I suck at it).

2. An AtE on an AtE. AtEception? but I personally don't consider this linked to an alignment to be honest so I will skip it.

3.And I have already stated through the game not only on your reads but anyone making THAT kind of reads why I despise them and find them scummy. The other part I can't remember right now so I ill skip it.

4. I hate you. You actually made me go back to search the exact quote to check.
Dongempire - See below paragraph.
Lmkguy - Too little to get a reading on. You know what you need to do.
Unless I'm that bad at english you LITERALLY used the same paragraph on both. I'm concerned you couldn't even check out your own post.

5. Because I don't feel good making a case on gut reads or 1 weak reason. So I feel comfortable waiting for scum to trip on their own tongue. That's why I'm trying to get as much info as I can this day, because if they can't follow their own train of logic that means they are forging it, and towns don't have a reason to forge reads or thoughts.

Uff almost missed. About Galagya: He was actually my stongest scum read so I was leaving them for last. Due to my time constraints and the low activity I got no time to make a proper post on my case againts them. Due to your answer to my first case I am feeling more and more confident on you as scum.

6. Oh i would have gave you the benefit of the doubt at least. That's why I didn't state my intention or actually voted you right after I laid my case on you, it is early and we have had(is that the right conjugation or w/e it is called?) low activity and I wanted to hear your thoughts/clarification about it. And you weren't even my principal scumread at the time.(reading wtf was I answering I noticed I may have sidetracked). So back on topic, I just said I don't consider usefull/worth or anything your reads on post 90 and I do think you could have jumped to any wagon gm proposed at that time without effort as I explained on some previous post. (at least tried to explain)

7. nope. I used "some people" not "someone" but honestly I cant rememer if it was 1 or 2 more ready to sheep and im in no shape to go back to look right now.

thats it im done /out to sleep

-Fixed tags

[kuror0]

ok no freaking clue what happened or why it looks like that but i hope MOD can make the format right.

[kuror0]

grapes <3 I couldn't go to sleep properly thinking everyone would think i wrote for ants.

[grapes]

Prodding Dongempire

[LmkGuy]

Hey all, had a super busy saturday and just returning from a night out, so in no state to comment properly. I'''l catch up proerply 2moro and give my thoughts. DONT HAMMERS WOLF BEFORE PEOPLE HAVE A CHANCE TO POST

[boring]

Post part 2

@Boring

:

Thank you kuror0, I don't understand how I've managed to miss this over and over.

I don’t want to keep bringing up associatives before the flip, but I’m not happy with how Oacenth and Dongempire are acting towards each other right now. I postulated that they may be the mafia team in post 67 and look what’s happened: The first read Oacenth gave in her current readings (post 74) was on Dongempire which null but more anti-town than not. And Dongempire's last few posts have been getting aggressive towards her and then votes her. It reads like distancing.

This is pretty concerning. I mean, I'm guilty of associating my scum reads, but this goes above and beyond. I have my own hunches as to why inexperienced scum might do this, but I can't think of a single town motivation, newbie or not, for such irrational shading. Not from someone familiar enough with the game to be using this terminology.

This kind of craziness is hard to ignore, and I have to admit that it's scale-tipping for me.

VOTE: SkiddishRaddish

If you’re thinking that I have a scum partner that coached me into all this knowledge, then they must have taught me

all the wrong things

to be tipping off everyone’s scum radar like this.

Whatever proficiency I have in the terminology is because I’ve played mafia on another website years ago, and a lot of my mafia knowledge back then came from reading games on this site (it was all in the newbie section too, they used more flavor text back then so there were a lot of terms I had to go look up). A lot of these are also in the glossary and abbreviations that Goodmorning posted in her first post which I've constantly been referencing throughout the game to make sure my usage was correct (I had to do some digging to find out what tunneling means tho, lol.)


Any thoughts on Kuror0 now that he's posted?

Okay, I'm beginning to feel bad for you now. These HUGE leaps you're making are a sign of someone unaccustomed to rational problem-solving. This little patch of crazy certainly isn't changing my read, but I can see that you're giving this a valiant try, and you should feel happy about that. I get the impression that you're struggling all alone, hoping against hope to make it through the day so you can confer with your partner.

My thoughts on kuror0 have improved considerably since he's started to contribute. I don't see why anyone would be putting so much effort into ISOs on Day 1. As a preference, those kinds of things are best left as personal notes for a later "day", to be used toward cases. But he's not the only one doing it, so meh, maybe I'm the odd one.

Tunneling is pursuing your reads to the exclusion of all else. It's beyond case-making, and beyond confirmation bias. It's like you have tunnel-vision.

[boring]

edit: I'm a little wary of kuror0's hesitation to make a vote. Unless I've totally misread, he thinks SR is scum, but he's not voted. It's not like putting her at L-1 will be a huge deal.

Actually, if we're all pretty sure platinum is town, it might be good to leave the hammer on our two wagons up to him.

[goodmorning]

@gm I hope you explain thoroughly the reasons to avoid that discussion if the time comes. Also what do you think about wolf. Seems you read him as town now but I thought you were reading Oacenth as scum, so anything wolf has done made you change your mind or am I remembering things wrong?

I've been moving away from a scumread on that slot since before Oacenth replaced out of it. When I got her out of "I don't know what to do" mode, she started looking Town, and Wolf hasn't dropped any tells but Newb ones.

On the topic, you pointed raddish vote on wolf. But isn't equally bad wolf's vote on skiddish? I mean he was the first to jump at the closest growing wagon and you were the one to call him out because he wasn't scumhunting... or townhunting. So whats the deal there?

Yes, Wolf's vote on Skiddish is equally opportunistic. But Wolf has already shown a pattern of inward-focused thinking, which his vote is consistent with.

re: your readslist: can you be more specific?

Specific on as to what?

You say "I think his/her posts are good" a lot in that readslist. I want to know which posts you find good and why. You don't have to give a lot of examples, just one or two from each person.

@Raddish 276: You may notice you've highlighted "consistent" words with two different connotations there. ("Read consistency" = reading most/all players the same way the whole game; "consistent pattern of worrying behaviour" = you have frequently done scummy things.) You may also notice that I said hypocrisy is not

necessarily

a scumtell.

@Raddish 277:
1. It might; it has been a while. But I don't think so.
2. I have some ideas, but I won't know which are right until you're dead and I'm not going to voice them and incite sheep.
3. If I eventually read you as Town, I certainly wouldn't let you get lynched.
4. "Oh look, Wolf is being run up/maybe L-1/I'm also being run up/let's end this Day before it gets any more traction."
Never said I didn't. See above.

This post actually gave me a bit of insight on how you viewed goodmorning's actions towards you. To me, it feels like you're convinced from the first few posts she made about being suspicious of you that gm would always be reading you as if you were scum, instead of having the possibility that she might be trying to find reasons from you to change her mind.

But I mean, does it seem like to you that Goodmorning is legitimately looking for those possibilities?

I can assure you that I am not, in fact, a moron.

ok no freaking clue what happened or why it looks like that but i hope MOD can make the format right.

You probably did [ spoiler ][ quote ][ / spoiler ][ / quote ].
Breaks the whole damn page.

(Actually given the "wrote for ants" thing I think you just missed an end bracket on your open quote. Like

post whatever[endurl], "Person" SHOULD BE END BRACKET HERE.)

[boring]

edit: I'm a little wary of kuror0's hesitation to make a vote. Unless I've totally misread, he thinks SR is scum, but he's not voted. It's not like putting her at L-1 will be a huge deal.

Actually, if we're all pretty sure platinum is town, it might be good to leave the hammer on our two wagons up to him.

I should correct myself and say that that by "leave the hammer up to him", I mean let platinum hammer SR.

I've been thinking more about the wagons. I've learned to be wary of D1 wagons because I've only seen scum lynched on D1 once. Every other time, it's been a scum-filled wagon on a weak townie. The fact that the SR wagon is lagging, and the MW one has become the strongest makes me doubt the MW one even more. They've both been low on my reads list, so I figured MW would be fine too, but I've changed my mind. I'm not ready to clear MW by any means, but I can't shake the nagging feeling that our scum team might be sitting pretty on his wagon.

Am I overthinking this? I'd like for someone else (preferably a few someones) to weigh in on this

.

[goodmorning]

VCA is usually silly.

The lynch rate for Scum D1 in Newbies last time I checked was 18%, which is slightly below random but also not zero.

[SkiddishRaddish]

edit: I'm a little wary of kuror0's hesitation to make a vote. Unless I've totally misread, he thinks SR is scum, but he's not voted. It's not like putting her at L-1 will be a huge deal.

I looked to see who voted me and I was shocked when I saw that Kurur0 wasn't one of them and hasn't casted his vote yet. It's like he's trying to put down an argument for people to vote for me, but then waiting to put down the hammer at the most opportune moment. Of course, he could be just waiting to get more opinions before he votes. (I'm guessing that this lack of activity is not normal to the forums.)

I should correct myself and say that that by "leave the hammer up to him", I mean let platinum hammer SR.

That's Platinum's decision. Don't hurt town by influencing their vote and depriving us of that information.

I've learned to be wary of D1 wagons because I've only seen scum lynched on D1 once. Every other time, it's been a scum-filled wagon on a weak townie.

That's honestly fascinating. Has the forum done any statistics on this?

The fact that the SR wagon is lagging, and the MW one has become the strongest makes me doubt the MW one even more.

Hardly lagging, I'm one vote down from Map Wolf, which was my vote that I cast last night. It's not like a full 24 hours past with no one else has voting or leaning towards my innocence.

They've both been low on my reads list, so I figured MW would be fine too, but I've changed my mind. I'm not ready to clear MW by any means, but I can't shake the nagging feeling that our scum team might be sitting pretty on his wagon.

You sure the scum team isn't sitting pretty on my wagon? Or hell, both wagons? Almost everyone has voted so they'll likely be on a wagon at the end of the gameday.


You’re going to start looking scummy if you keep posting about other stuff and ignoring @s towards you. And in addition to them, do you have other reasons for voting me (beyond what Kurur0 wrote that you quoted)?

Started working on a reply to the rest but it'll have to wait until probably later tonight when I'm done with homework.

p-edit

: What's VCA?
So it's a little under a 1 in 5 chance. That makes sense with 9 players.

[SkiddishRaddish]

Ahh wait, I missed the above, I'll read it

[SkiddishRaddish]

Okay, I'm beginning to feel bad for you now. These HUGE leaps you're making are a sign of someone unaccustomed to rational problem-solving.

That’s part of why I decided to start playing mafia on here. My personality day-to-day is much more feelings based and learning how to lean a little more on fact is good personal growth for someone like me. (In Myers-Briggs terms for those who know them, I'm an INFJ trying to better use my Ti function.)

Explain where the leaps are. It's probably because I made the post but I'm not seeing them.

This little patch of crazy certainly isn't changing my read, but I can see that you're giving this a valiant try, and you should feel happy about that. I get the impression that you're struggling all alone, hoping against hope to make it through the day so you can confer with your partner.

Well, I'm happy that my play is at least improving by the tiniest bit.

Who do you think would have coached me on all of this?

My thoughts on kuror0 have improved considerably since he's started to contribute. I don't see why anyone would be putting so much effort into ISOs on Day 1. As a preference, those kinds of things are best left as personal notes for a later "day", to be used toward cases. But he's not the only one doing it, so meh, maybe I'm the odd one.

I’ll quote Goodmorning on this “Effort is not indicative of aliment”.

I'd like better reasoning if you could before the gameday closes.

Tunneling is pursuing your reads to the exclusion of all else. It's beyond case-making, and beyond confirmation bias. It's like you have tunnel-vision.

I eventually figured it out, but I think this was the clearest definition I’ve read for it, so thank you.

[kuror0]

back with a terrible headache.

Why I don't have my vote on skiddish yet? That's simple I didn't want the day to end before it was necessary. Somewhere I said I was ready to vote for skiddish as in I'm convinced she is scum. why not vote right away, because I was going out and there was roughly 2 and a half days left letting my vote there could enable some hammer which I didn't want so soon and could happen while I was out(I wasn't expecting drunk me to come and post). Now due to all the lurkers/Vla we didn't got that much, but at least we got something.

With that said VOTE: Skiddish

[kuror0]

so skiddish and wolf both at L-1

[Map Wolf]

re: your readslist: can you be more specific?

Specific on as to what?

You say "I think his/her posts are good" a lot in that readslist. I want to know which posts you find good and why. You don't have to give a lot of examples, just one or two from each person.

Okay thank you for elaborating on it.

[Map Wolf]

Who do you think is staying the furthest away from me then?

No. Your hypothetical scummate could be pretty much anyone, although more experienced players would be more likely to distance you.

[boring]

Explain where the leaps are. It's probably because I made the post but I'm not seeing them.

Assuming that I was saying you were coached. This requires a leap of logic that doesn't match up at all with what I said. It makes me think you've more information than me, and you don't know how to make the necessary adjustments.

This little patch of crazy certainly isn't changing my read, but I can see that you're giving this a valiant try, and you should feel happy about that. I get the impression that you're struggling all alone, hoping against hope to make it through the day so you can confer with your partner.

Well, I'm happy that my play is at least improving by the tiniest bit.

Who do you think would have coached me on all of this?

See above.

My thoughts on kuror0 have improved considerably since he's started to contribute. I don't see why anyone would be putting so much effort into ISOs on Day 1. As a preference, those kinds of things are best left as personal notes for a later "day", to be used toward cases. But he's not the only one doing it, so meh, maybe I'm the odd one.

I’ll quote Goodmorning on this “Effort is not indicative of aliment”.

I'd like better reasoning if you could before the gameday closes.

I'm really not sure what you're asking for here.

Spoiler:

(In Myers-Briggs terms for those who know them, I'm an INFJ trying to better use my Ti function.)

That explains a bit. I've limited faith in MBTI/Jungian typology, but I test as INTP.