Skruffs wrote:TS, I would be more suspicious of the players who said that I Was most likely town, or 'too easy' of a lynch day one and are targetting me (or at least this role) only after someone who seems serious about the game replaces in. TO ME... that is a very large scum tell. It strikes me as scum taking steps not to be seen as oppurtunistic and trying to save 'easy targets' for later on in the game.
That doesn't seem like a huge scumtell to me... scumtell yes, but huge, no.
Let me re-read, maybe I missed something.
[i][url=http://chantalpare.ca]Squeezable icing, flaky pastry crust and sweet, gooey fillings are irresistible.[/url][/i]
[url=http://www.lawrencejoseph.org/1indexh2.html]The Harpits Greatest Pits - Free MP3's[/url]
The game started to get slow now, i dont' know what to say. I guess my vote stay for now but i still thinking about what Pwayne said. Let see how it go.
I known exactly what you are talking about skruffs, It whether you know what you are talking about that I am challenging. You can rest assured, I have arrived at my verdict...
EBWOP[/]
When, I say I know, I mean this: People who appear townie are hard to lynch and nobody is targeting you. But I will add this to the list of questions that you won't answer and positions that you won't defend.
I've lost my cool a couple of times and OMGUSed him right back, but ultimately, I don't think his current actions are scumtells. I do get really frustrated by the direction this game is taking. I am hoping SSF's replacement injects some new life into the game.
I'll talk about Gorgon, sure. I'll base this post on HAckerHuckk and his predecessers, but I Will be talking about Gorgon's relationship to other players as well.
Since this will be a pretty long post, I'll do it one replacement at a time:
PLayers that make up HackerHuck's Role:
Borchmore -
3:Borchmore and daedalus (Jester,
COP
) have not contributed enough.
4: Borchmore and SSF are lurking too much.
5: later posts that SSF's name was filler. This indicates he was mostly just targetting Borchmore. If Borchmore is his scum buddy, why would he feel the need to prod a partner who (if I remember correctly) was not under any fire? He seemed to resent SSF calling him out on this.
6: Defends vote on CLA (which goes against stance in post 3) to CA, validates Cicero's pressure vote on CLA as well.
Also, here's a side note:
Most of Cicero's comments about Gorgon have been either "I totally believed that Gorgon was town" or "Gorgon really fooled me" or "Gorgon was the last person I will think is town".
He made a "Jester's Greatest Hits" compilation of who Jester was suspicious of, etc, even though Jester never had an investigation and so was teh equivalent of a townie.
He's Never analyzed Gorgon's Play.
Especially after he was so completely "Bamboozled" by Gorgon showing up as scum, you would *think* that Cicero would say "Wow I was completely wrong, WHAT did I overlook?" Instead he looks at the uninformed minority and leaves the known scum's postings alone.
Apart from ALL of my ramblings and 'lack of common sense' or whatever you want to acuse me of, doesn't that mean SOMETHING to ANYONE?
Battle Mage -
7: Welcomes BM to game. Again bolsters Cicero's arguments, while distancing. "I like his style regardless of what role he turns out to be" <- odd statement. Defends Cicero against BM's statement that only scum want to preserve themselves. (If BM is his partner, why would he tear down his partner's argument against Cicero like this?) He disagrees with Shaka's idea that CLa is covering for Cicero. (Again, defending Cicero). Knowing that Gorgon is scum now, this line: "He doesn't know anything about anyone else (unless he's a mason, of course)." in talking about Cicero's desire to keep himself alive is very unusual. I have made the same statement, regarding various players who have been defending each other for no sensible reason.
HE moves on to deflect against CHocolate Attack, who (I think) made an interesting point about his stance regarding the CLA situation. He attempts to push CA onto other players who are voting CLA, while saying he would unvote if he gets to -1. -1! AN easy 'mistake' to make, especially if someone were to quick hammer "before he got the chance".
interesting: After attempting to push CA onto other CLA voters, he tries to distract CA Again by asking him to respond to PWayne. Why was he so fussy about CA being suspicious of him? This is either very good distancing or megapoints for CA being town.
9 - Attempt to resolve SHaka argument.
10 - Unvotes CLA, not happy putting him at -1. (Different from earlier statement that he would put him at -1, even though he was pleased with his arguments. Hmm.)
Fosses daedalus(COP) for putting CLA at -1. Odd because he was willing to do so earlier.
11: Prod requests on ALYG(town), orlowski, SSF (again). BM not included. Apparently scouted out AlyG and SSF in other games. Asks SSF's opinion, puts bulk of attention onto ALYG instead. (Second time SSF was used as 'filler' equivalent in prod post).
12: Accuses Guppy of covering BM's ass - interesting considering he did not think CLA was covering Cicero's ass before. Indicates lack of suspicion of Cicero, and attempt of inflamement of suspicion of BM. Fusses over idea that pro-town players tend to replace more. (if it is real fussing, and has a reason behind it, that further makes CIcero look bad, but that's not a tell even I would use.)
13: Fussing over P.Guppy again, doesn't like that he 'cleared' BM and PWayne. Tries to push PGup to 'catch scum' - which is interesting, considering how many people were sure GOrgon was town. Was he intimidated by this? "Anyone could be scum, no matter how town they look." <- touche!
14: "Consoles" agitated PGuppy. (This post is VERY reminiscent of Cicero's posts to SKitzer late in day one, which led to him PM-quoting and being modkilled(by his own words)). Agrees with Cicero (again) regarding PGuppy beign highstrung. Pushes "anyone" being scum again, without dropping names.
15: Follows PWayne in "OMG BM!" post after BM seems to hammer. Very similar to his mode of discussing with PGup in his previous post. This whole post seems VERY superficial, to me. I see both his response (even more than Pwayne's) as oppurtunistic. He felt that someone not on his scum team had just been hammered by someone else not on his scum team. THat makes PWAyne look worse, in my opinion. The whole post seems to be implying the knowledge that PGup would turn up town. If PGup was scum with him, I believe the reaction would be more suspicious and less 'sure'. This is the first time he deliberately implies suspicion of BM - and that ties into my idea that he was trying to be opportunistic.
16: "Calming down", again seems like an attempt to seem protown.
Apparently BM also pickedup on this, he mentions that Gorgon seems to think PGup is town.
17: Bases his reasoning of PGup being town on his actions in a previous game. This is a very flaky response. Says that he thinks PGup is town, but then joins BM in requestion a claim from PGup. ??? This is odd.
18: Interseting.
Pwayne turns on Gorgon and questions his motivations behind his 'OMG BM!" post, which is immediately after PWayne's, which is fairly similar in it's message. HE basically confesses that he didn't think PGup would turn up scum.
19: Though he thinks PGup is town, but wants a claim, he snaps at PGup's saying that he was 'confirmed'. "Hey now, just because I'm telling everyone you are town to save MY ass, doesn't mean I want attention to move away from you!" <- my rendition of this post.
20: See post 19. Doesn't like the idea of PGup being publicly labelled "Town".
21: Doing damage control, trying to put suspicion back on PGup again. While he deefended Cicero's statement that he wants to stay alive against BM's "Only scum want to stay alive", he attacks PGup for wanting to "look innocent" by saying "Only scum want to look innocent". Well Shaka says this, but he follows through. Inconsistencies that tie in with previous defenses of Cicero. He makes a point to say he is coaching PGuppy in this post.
22: Attempts to deflate BM's statment that peoplpe are using crap-logic on him - points attention to PGup.
23: Another prod for SSF, buddybuddy style, and then to diffuse the appearance of buddying up, a vote for him, on premise of applying pressure. (AKA Bandwagoning)
24: Pushing attention onto Theo. Prodding of Daedalus (cop)
25: Interesting post:
Theo explains (reasonably) why he said some players were lurking.
Gorgon backtracks and hides behind Cicero. *IF* Gorgon has been buddying up to Cicero all game, this post is the most solid proof of that. "Cicero and I are in agerement" is an obvious attempt to link to Cicero. Obvious. What were they in agreement of? That SSF was actively lurking and ths suspicious. Gorgon has posted Three(?) times by now public pokes at SSF in hopes of responses. HE then dismisses the allegations by saying that both he and cicero are new to scum. Wow. Even more buddying! HE is literally putting words into Cicero's mouth about the reasoning behind why they are suspicious of SSF. THen, his arm around Cicero's shoulder, he guides him (and Theopor, as well) away from SSF, and says that SSF is off the hook. THis is the third time he has poked SSF with a limp noodle. (No innuendo intended). This actually looks bad for SSF!
back to BM. He is curious why BM has stopped attacking Cicero - and asks him if he's changed his mind. This, after he has been quasi-stifling BM's attacks against Cicero in the first place, now he seems to be seeing if there's anything there to incite. This also looks bad for SSF.
27:
More agreement with Cicero in saying that PGup was too easy of a target.
"If Erotomachia ends up being revealed as town, I will be suspicious of the people who went after CLA and (especially) PG the hardest. " <- foreshadowing? Also insinuating that perhaps people going the hardest after CLA/PG were townies.
LOL! Suggests that Eroto is buddying up to he and Cicero. This is again him almost publicly saying "I am buddying up to Cicero", and I am starting to wonder if anyone would be so obvious about it.
For the second tiem he discusses Cicero's post-death alignment, saying he will be disappointed if he turns out to be scum. MORE FORESHADOWING???
Suspicious of cop, prods on: skitzer, BM(self exploration??), HonHit.
PRESSURE VOTE ON DAEDALUS! This is the third pressure vote he's made, one on me, one on SSF, and one on Daedalus. I don't know about SSF, but the other two were on pro-town players.
28:
suspicion of the backup.
29: Disagrees with Cicero's 'lynch the lurker' post. THis is the first time he went against Cicero all game. Who was the lurker? And did Cicero back down?
30: This is smarmy. If someone is scum, you lynch them. This strikes me as Gorgon taking advantage of someone who has a full head of steam and only one hand on the wheel.
31: Agrees with shaka (note to self, look deeper in this time area) and says goodbye to BM.
After the BM episode, I am less suspicious of Cicero, but still suspicious. The buddying up is so blatant, SO BLATANT, that it almost seems like it was intentionally blatant. I don't know if Gorgon is good with reverse psychology or not.
I do *not* feel that GOrgon was scum buddies with BM - I have previously said that IT hink Hacker Huck is likely the SK though, because of his statements regarding the likelihood of the stabbing being from a serial killer earlier in the day.
I do feel that Gorgon was taking advantage of Cicero, or at least pretending to, but that does not mean, to me, that cicero was not playing along, as his scum partner. I am nto saying 'lynch one or the other', but it seems to me that, dependong on how Gorgon was trying to play, he was either partners with Cicero OR SSF, but I would say, most likely not both.
I do not think he is partnered with CA, but he also ignored CA a good bit. Not as much as he ignored PWayne, who, incidentally, also seems to have not asked Gorgon a single question day one. His fosses and votes seem to be mostly focused on townies. He did not like it when PGup turned out to be not lynched. HE did not like BM, and I feel that the dislike was genuine. His treatment towards Shaka was ambiguous, to say the least.
35:
INterestingly:
Who he thought was scum:
alyg (town)
jalyn (town)
somestrangeflea
erotomachina (town)
kakeng
Netural:
chocolate attack
theopor - although he says he thinks theo is town, he prefaces ti by saying theo is hard to read.
white - again, says he thinks town, but notes there's not much to go on
Town:
cicero
pwayne
shaka
intrestingly enough, though he says nearly identical things about cicero and pwayne, his interactions are nearly entirely with Cicero. Why is this?
Anyways, I'm actually done for the night. I'll continue some time later, hopefully this will spark up some interest. And if you are bored of me saying "Look at cicero", you have every right to express to me why you think it is likely that I am wrong, rather than sayign my points are weak. One actually contributes to the game, the other is just stalling until deadilne.
Skruffs wrote:Kakeng - Gets no greeting (unlike others)
35:
INterestingly:
Who he thought was scum:
alyg (town)
jalyn (town)
somestrangeflea
erotomachina (town)
kakeng
Netural:
chocolate attack
theopor - although he says he thinks theo is town, he prefaces ti by saying theo is hard to read.
white - again, says he thinks town, but notes there's not much to go on
Town:
cicero
pwayne
shaka
intrestingly enough, though he says nearly identical things about cicero and pwayne, his interactions are nearly entirely with Cicero. Why is this?
Anyways, I'm actually done for the night. I'll continue some time later, hopefully this will spark up some interest. And if you are bored of me saying "Look at cicero", you have every right to express to me why you think it is likely that I am wrong, rather than sayign my points are weak. One actually contributes to the game, the other is just stalling until deadilne.
Well it it's interesting, because he used some of hte same words for several players, "confident, "aggressive", etc, and in some cases decided that that was a good thing, but in some - like Kakeng and SSF, decided it was a bad thing. I don't think anyone really called him out on the double standard.
See for yourself:
Borchmore
Battle Mage
Kakeng
Nothing of note from Borchmore. BM started out very aggressively against cicero, but that is his style. He does tend to have very solid convictions and sticks to his guns, but it can be faked as scum, of course. Don't like Kakeng much so far. Thinking possible scum.
vs
shaka!!
Aggressive and opinionated. Has focused a lot on BM, as has been pointed out. Still waiting for his opinions on someone else. Liked his poking of Kakeng though. Thinking town.
vs
somestrangeflea
Haven't liked his lurking in this game. He's certainly not been the most helpful player here, but he has looked confident. Thinking possible scum though.
vs
cicero
A very verbal and opinionated newbie; likes to discuss the game of Mafia in a larger sense, trying to see the big picture. I like his style, and I think he's a little too confident and eager to be scum. Reminds me of town-Guardian in his early days.
vs
pwayne66
Aggressive and toungue-in-cheek. Looks confident. Thinking town.
OK Skruffs, so after all that who is/are Gorgon's mafia partner(s)?
I re-looked at Gorgon again myself and nothing definitive stands out for me in terms of finding his buddy. I think that the best way to handle those kind of posts if you are scum is to just give your honest impressions of your partners play. If your partner looks scummy say he looks scummy. If he looks town say he looks town. It's very insulating.
Here's the problem with your analysis skills again though. You essentially just lied when you said that he decided that confidence was a bad thing for some players. That isnt what he said. He expressly says confidence is a plus mark for Flea. The fact that he says he thinks Flea is scum isnt the same as saying that his confidence is evidence that he is scum. That's why he uses the word "though" in that sentence. If you can't even get that right, nobody can trust your re-articulation of what you are reading, so people have to dismiss your posts. It's reading comprehension and you, either deliberately or for some other reason, seem to be having consistent trouble with it. (similar distinction can be made with kakeng and the word "but")
One thing that I really noticed was the whole "reminds me of town-Guardian in his early days." Is Gorgon someone else's alt? His join date is near mine but his play is skilful and he references institutional memory. Who was that guy?
Cicero, regardless of what I think of your play, I'm not insulting your intelligence. Am I? If I am, it's not intentional. You are, and I can only take it as someone trying to undermine another player's character.
Here is the post:
Gorgon wrote:
Orlowski
Honary Hitchiker
White
Orlowski didn't post much. Not much to go on. HH posted nothing at all! White has looked good so far; he certainly seems more interested in this game than most people have been these past days. *Cough* Thinking town.
shaka!!
Aggressive and opinionated. Has focused a lot on BM, as has been pointed out. Still waiting for his opinions on someone else. Liked his poking of Kakeng though. Thinking town.
somestrangeflea
Haven't liked his lurking in this game. He's certainly not been the most helpful player here, but he has looked confident. Thinking possible scum though.
theopor_COD
He's hard to read. I liked his post 17 a lot, where he gunned for lots of players at once in a no-nonsense fashion. Thinking town.
cheeky-little-asian
Prof. Guppy
Erotomachia
Ugh. CLA was weird. PG was weirder. Eroto hasn't posted for a while ... so thinking possible scum now. This player slot certainly has a very annoying tendency to bail.
AlyG
The scum candidate de jour, and rightly so. He's lurked throughout the entire game and has been very unhelpful. Thinking scum.
ChocolateAttack
Another inactive. I'll reserve judgement until he starts posting more or gets replaced.
Borchmore
Battle Mage
Kakeng
Nothing of note from Borchmore. BM started out very aggressively against cicero, but that is his style. He does tend to have very solid convictions and sticks to his guns, but it can be faked as scum, of course. Don't like Kakeng much so far. Thinking possible scum.
cicero
A very verbal and opinionated newbie; likes to discuss the game of Mafia in a larger sense, trying to see the big picture. I like his style, and I think he's a little too confident and eager to be scum. Reminds me of town-Guardian in his early days.
pwayne66
Aggressive and toungue-in-cheek. Looks confident. Thinking town.
daedalus
Jalyn
Not much from daedalus. Didn't like his putting CLA at L-1 though. Still waiting for Jalyn to post something useful. Neutral on her ATM.
He uses confidence and agression as pro-town aspects, and lurkiness as anti-town aspects. However, he says some people are town who are lurky (white) and others are scum who are confident/agressive (BM).
Also:
Where did you relook at Gorgon? I didn't see any posts where you reviewed Gorgon's actions to see where he may have been trying to mislead the town. You *did* see enough in Jester's posts to merit a fairly lengthy report on him, though, and he was town. So again, what about you vs gorgon vs jester led you to think that a vanilla townie would have more insight - intentionally or not - about who scum is than one of the mafia partners?
(Note : Jester was the cop, BUT he never had an inspection, so other than his title he was a vanilla townie when day 1 ended.)
"I think that the best way to handle those kind of posts if you are scum is to just give your honest impressions of your partners play. If your partner looks scummy say he looks scummy. If he looks town say he looks town. It's very insulating. "
And you said he looked Town. That's very insulating, isn't it?
Sounds like cicero might be afraid that we might find something if we look at Gorgon... and is worried about it.
For me, what stood out is that even though it didn't translate into a vote (if my memory serves me right), Gorgon was only suspicious of HH. He seem to have approved/defended/made-up-excuses every one else.
Gorgon's cicero-love was permeating his every post... but I think that looks good for cicero, not the other way around...
[i][url=http://chantalpare.ca]Squeezable icing, flaky pastry crust and sweet, gooey fillings are irresistible.[/url][/i]
[url=http://www.lawrencejoseph.org/1indexh2.html]The Harpits Greatest Pits - Free MP3's[/url]
With 3 players at 2 votes each, I almost get the feeling the scum is too chicken to move their vote. It might be too obvious that they're trying to lay off one player, and push on another.
This is wild spec I reckon. But hey. Here it is.
Let's say that there is one scum in each mini-wagon - for the sake of discussion. Let's say they don't want to move their vote away from a scum buddy (distancing/bus'ing) towards a townie, because that's too bloody blatant. Possible since the votes look pretty stable.
So...
shaka!! might be bus'ing HH.
Skruffs and HH might be bus'ing pwayne66
Since I think Skruffs is town given the way he is scratching his head and working out to find signs in Gorgon's postings... pretty sure Skruffs is town, and he's not bus'ing pwayne66, he's voting.
So...
shaka!! might be bus'ing HH.
HH might be bus'ing pwayne66
One scum is gone. I don't think we have a 4-man mafia in a mini. But my best guess at the moment, and I admit this has been a tough game to wrap my head around, I'd say that pwayne66 and HH are scumbuddies. Interestingly pwayne66 is pretty aggressive, but not committing to a vote. No evidence of a SK, but I'd look for shaka!! if there was one. But that's reall iffy.
Conclusion:
vote:pwayne66
- maybe I'm helping him bus his buddy, and that would be a good thing. Let's see.
[i][url=http://chantalpare.ca]Squeezable icing, flaky pastry crust and sweet, gooey fillings are irresistible.[/url][/i]
[url=http://www.lawrencejoseph.org/1indexh2.html]The Harpits Greatest Pits - Free MP3's[/url]
If you are sure that HH is scum (he is the common denomiator in both your theories) why would you risk a mislynch with a wildcard (me)? It seems that the protown action would be to go for the sure thing and not risk.
Guys I'm real sorry, I'm in my last week of exams and then I will be on holiday. I did a quick read of the recent updates and I actually want to do a proper read of it, but I'm finding it hard with the exams.
