Newbie 1758 - Symmetry (Game Over)

User avatar
Human Sequencer
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3501
Joined: September 23, 2016
Pronoun: all

Post Post #50 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:38 am

Post by Human Sequencer »

In post 49, Joshz wrote:It does look false considering he had posted...?

No, I mean thanks for confirming that your reason was falsified. Clearly that's not the case anymore, it was just a misunderstanding.
In post 49, Joshz wrote:We are now our of rv stage, meaning regardless of me being a leading wagon at the very least the game is now moving so I'll call that a win. At this stage very little has happened, and your vote seems exactly like what scum would do.

You read that vote that projected us out of RVS as scummy, even though you agree with me that it's a good thing. Contradiction of motive.
In post 49, Joshz wrote:You're actually the one trying to paint me in scum light with that whole post, so ignoring the hypocrisy you've gone from a slight scum read to a stronger one atp.
I'm using facts to point out how you might be scum. You were fabricating motivations that didn't exist and misrepping the thread.
nah
Joshz
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1001
Joined: November 6, 2016

Post Post #51 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:56 am

Post by Joshz »

None of that is true. And my only motive with my first post was to build on the slightest thing to get discussion going. The fact you replied in the way you have and did just makes you look worse to me.

Where the fuck is the ic btw
Joshz
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1001
Joined: November 6, 2016

Post Post #52 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:57 am

Post by Joshz »

In post 27, Psyche wrote:helllo
Hi
User avatar
Loopdan
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2256
Joined: May 13, 2016

Post Post #53 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:38 am

Post by Loopdan »

@Joshz-- Can you find an avatar? It would make it easier to follow the game. Thanks.
User avatar
Hellfire Missile
Hellfire Missile
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Hellfire Missile
Goon
Goon
Posts: 593
Joined: October 18, 2016

Post Post #54 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:45 am

Post by Hellfire Missile »

damn you guys are alot more active.

This is gonna be fun :p

(of course it could just be bc its first couple pages)
User avatar
Human Sequencer
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3501
Joined: September 23, 2016
Pronoun: all

Post Post #55 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:46 am

Post by Human Sequencer »

I don't let up.
nah
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #56 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:53 am

Post by Psyche »

Hi guys, I'm your IC. Inexperience Challenged is a faux-politically correct term on mafiascum.net for experienced players ("IC"s) who sign up for Newbie Games to represent the site and its meta. I've been on the site for more than a few years, so I have a good sense of what the site and its meta is, even if I personally am not a prototypical example of it.

A little about myself: I'm a college student who passionately studies psychology and is trying to become a scientist someday. I spend my free time watching TV, playing video games like LoL and Overwatch, being around people, biking, and - most importantly to me, performing or studying science. I've done some studies pertinent to how mafia is played here, and I might bring them up if any of their results turn out to be topical.

There are a few standards I'm held to while I have this role:
-
Good attitude
. I shouldn't be rude, unhelpful, or inattentive.
-
Never flake/be replaced, or even lurk
. I should make an effort to post in the game, and post regularly.
-
Don't self-vote/hammer
. If any of you don't know why self-voting/hammering is always a bad idea, the simple explanation is that every player in this game has a win condition that's threatened considerably when a member of their team is lynched.
- . The links included just now can serve as a partial window into those things, but it's my job to go the next level and be ready to answer any questions you have about how the site as a whole generally thinks about this game. Be aware, though, that "the site" is probably only marginally better at this game than you are, if that, and that it's easy to overlearn from these theory pages and make bad decisions. Instead of acting based on what a theory page says, try hard to think through the unique situation you find yourself in, appreciate its nuances and opportunities, and act based on that.
-
Treat the game like a normal game
. I probably won't be doing this, because I just don't have an IC-like air in most of my normal games. You guys will make me be a better me. Leave it to the SEs to act like this is normal. Speaking of which, SEs should probably introduce themselves, too!
-
Explain everything as much as I can
. Literally everything. Unprompted. That I can.
-
Be ethical.
I'm going to follow the rules. I'm going to try to make sure you follow the rules. But beyond that, I won't try to win in the wrong way (ex with some sort of scorched earth approach that makes this game unfun for everyone), and I'm going to try to keep you from doing that too.

I'm not some mafia-playing paragon. I don't have all the time in the world to play this game and explain everything that comes up. But I will use the time and skill I have to make you guys' first game as edifying and fun as possible. Some final notes:

Mafia is a really fun, really tough game! When you play it face-to-face it's quite a bit easier. When you play it with people you know, it's quite a bit easier. If you're some sort of wizard (we do get those), then it's quite a bit easier. But barring all of that, this game is tough and you just have to accept it. You're going to have to go out on a limb. You're going to have to take risks. You're going to have to rely on your gut. And at the same time, you're going to have to try and make sense. Because if you don't make sense, you're going to find it hard to reach a consensus on anything, and even if you do you're probably deciding who to lynch at random - which is another way of saying that you're probably deciding to lynch a townie. Do that too often, and you lose. Unless you're scum.

So to some extent the town lives and dies by the quality of its cases, and more fundamentally on the behaviors that they latch onto and decide to call "town tells" and "scum tells". Few people on this site have perfectly congruent ideas about what counts as a scummy post, or a townie post. Your opponents will try to anticipate how you'll interpret their behavior, shifting their habits to match more competitively with your own. And your allies, well - they will confuse and disappoint you a lot. Sometimes it will be sort of their faults. Sometimes it will be yours. Sometimes the mafia are in the background pulling strings. But usually, it's a mix of all three that make a bad lynch happen. So...watch out?

Another thing that inevitably happens is conflict and anger. When someone gets chosen to be lynched, they're likely to take it personally. And even when someone isn't getting lynched, there are tons of reasons people might get, well, pissed off. Someone might feel like they aren't being treated with the proper amount of respect. Someone might be angry that the rest of the town doesn't agree with their theory about who's scum. I could go on and on.

It's important to remember that this is just a game. Imagine the games you used to play when you were younger with balls and running and whatever. Whether you win or lose, whether you suck at it or not, whether you think that dude over there is being a complete idiot in your opinion - none of that comes close to mattering as much as whether you and the people you've chosen to play with are able to enjoy the game. Sure, it can't all be fun. Someone has to lose. Someone even has to get lynched on Day 1. You guys need to take it all in stride, while still trying your hardest to win. That determines whether playing a game as absurd as Mafia has been worth your time.

So, keep that in mind.
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Human Sequencer
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Human Sequencer
all
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3501
Joined: September 23, 2016
Pronoun: all

Post Post #57 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:57 am

Post by Human Sequencer »

Good IC.
Shit taste in video games.
:lol:
nah
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #58 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:02 am

Post by Psyche »

THE RANDOM VOTING STAGE


So at the start of a game on mafia scum, you'll probably see a lot of people voting people for no or really bad reasons! Why don't they stop? The best answer to that question is simply that there's nothing better to do. The thread is empty of a lot of posts about the game, so no one can really say much at all that's substantive about it. If people handled this situation by not saying anything at all about the game, then "this situation" would just persists for page after page until the Day is over!

So instead, we have a random voting stage. Or session. I'm never sure what the S stands for. The idea is to take something trivial and just ride with it using your vote. Ideally, you'd try to make the serious accusation that you can possibly make at the moment. At first, this might be something absurd, like "his name is Fugitive!". But eventually it might be, "He seems to acting a bit too...chill" or "That dude is buddying!" or "She seems to be lurking in the shadows". However serious these accusations are, their backing with votes gives punch to them, and they might provoke discussion and those discussions might provoke new accusations or new discussions. Somehow by page 5 the thread is no longer empty of posts about the game and everyone will stop voting for people for bad reasons.

The RVS is a really effective method to make content generate out of nothing, so learn feel comfortable with it happening.
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #59 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:15 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 37, Hellfire Missile wrote:
In post 35, Jackel98 wrote:You're allowed to talk about other games, as long as they are finished. This is often used to give evidence for a player's meta, or how that player tends to play.
Finished means lynched, NK'ed

Completed means game complete, one side got their win condition iirc

Yeah?

Alright, so what i've learned is that to analyze scum you need to watch for contradictions in their statements right?
I've always wanted to make a longer theory post about how to find scum based on this book I read about emotion, but that'd take too much time to do exactly right now.

But basically, it's not that simple. It
is
important to look for inconsistencies/contradictions in users posts, and in fact you should interpret this instruction broadly. Rather that just examining contradictions between announced claims and beliefs, also look for deeper contradictions - between what users are posting and what you know about them (for example, look at how someone noticed a contradiction between your confusion about RVS and your experience with this game), between the things they're saying and how it seems they
feel
, and so forth.

The most important and broadminded sort of contradiction to look out for is a contradiction between
everything you know about the user
and the proposition that
they are town
(or scum, if you're looking to rule potential lynches out!). Contradictions that don't amount to contradictions with the idea that someone is town/scum essentially don't matter in mafia. It'll be up to you (and every town here) to decide if a detected contradiction matters or not.

A problem you'll face often in this game is that townies say wrongheaded things and even contradict themselves a lot. Similarly, people assigned as mafia only rarely contradict themselves in clearly meaningful ways (ie 'scumslip'). So you'll have to be careful and really searching at the same time. And eventually, before the Day is over, you'll have to make a call based on noisy, unreliably information.
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #60 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:16 am

Post by Psyche »

don't talk about ongoing games outside its thread
ever, anywhere
you might get banned if you do
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #61 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:26 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 42, Joshz wrote:Ah it's still going on, we should probably stop talking about it.

Hi human sequencer. I'd like you to explain any possible scum motivation for my vote at all. Random voting with no explanation, then giving what looks like a false reason, why would a scum do that? There's no logic or basis in that push and it's clearly not going anywhere. Jackel is just trying to pressure me so idc but you trying to build a wagon makes you look bad as fuck to me, you're jumping on the opportunity to lynch a townie wayy too quickly if you're scum and not just noob.

Unvote
VOTE: human sequencer
is this sincere reasoning or low-information "not much i can say so i'll say this" reasoning?
in other words, when you say "bad as fuck", do you mean it? do you think sequencer is likely scum for the reasons you described?
You can't step in the same river twice.
Joshz
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1001
Joined: November 6, 2016

Post Post #62 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:50 am

Post by Joshz »

Confused by the question but he's my biggest scum read atm. That said, it's off of weak reasoning and I'm aware of that but the game hasn't progressed enough for me to have a bigger scum read so for now he's the best I've got.

I'm not setting an avi sorry I've gone over why in my other game bit w.e
User avatar
Loopdan
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2256
Joined: May 13, 2016

Post Post #63 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:23 am

Post by Loopdan »

In post 62, Joshz wrote:I'm not setting an avi sorry I've gone over why in my other game bit w.e
Say what huh? :?
User avatar
Sobolev Space
Sobolev Space
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sobolev Space
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1170
Joined: November 6, 2016
Location: Denver, CO

Post Post #64 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:37 am

Post by Sobolev Space »

@Psyche a couple questions about overall game stuff. I've played f2f a couple times but I feel like online its so easy for scum to emulate town perfectly people really shouldn't be doing better than random chance. Do you have any really clear examples of scumslips from your past games possibly that can help me see what I should be looking for?

When I played in the past I found I got overly defensive when people accused me of being mafia. Do you have any good suggestions for how a townie (like me :wink: ) should react when others are trying to build a wagon on them?

@Joshz and Human Sequencer. This whole exchange just looks like a misunderstanding. I think Joshz explained how he decides to do RVS voting convincingly (i.e. vote least active people) and the naked vote doesn't look scummy since he wan't actually pushing for a lynch. At the same time questioning the naked vote seems reasonable and I don't really see Sequencer trying to build a wagon on Joshz (at least not yet).
User avatar
Loopdan
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2256
Joined: May 13, 2016

Post Post #65 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:55 am

Post by Loopdan »

VOTE: Sobolev Space

One scum down.
User avatar
HowardRoark
HowardRoark
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
HowardRoark
Goon
Goon
Posts: 912
Joined: November 27, 2008
Location: PA, USA

Post Post #66 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:04 am

Post by HowardRoark »

VOTE: Joshz
You noticed that Empoof was replaced but missed that Loopdan had posted twice and Empoof's replacement (alphabetorical) had not?!?!? Now it's becoming a wagon.

@Jackel98: Why did you feel the need to anti-OMGUS your vote before the seemingly RVS reason?

@Loopdan: Care to share your thoughts with that vote?
Help your fellow players by replacing into a game.
Joshz
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1001
Joined: November 6, 2016

Post Post #67 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:25 am

Post by Joshz »

Of course I noticed Empoof got replaced, we played together on another forum and his name was the only name I recognized... I'm actually regretting signing up for this shit call this an ate if you want but this logic is actually making me want to slap someone

I still don't even understand where this logic is coming from and nobody answered. What. Purpose. Would. Scum. Have. For. Doing. That. You keep calling not noticing he posted scummy yet it makes no sense... I don't even know how to argue here this is so fucking stupid
Joshz
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Joshz
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1001
Joined: November 6, 2016

Post Post #68 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:28 am

Post by Joshz »

Like I want to clear my head but i dont even understand how you can pass this as scummy, it's different than normal where I can at least contemplate why people are scum reading me. I'm so lost rn
User avatar
Loopdan
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Loopdan
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2256
Joined: May 13, 2016

Post Post #69 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:28 am

Post by Loopdan »

In post 64, Sobolev Space wrote:@Psyche a couple questions about overall game stuff. I've played f2f a couple times but I feel like online its so easy for scum to emulate town perfectly people really shouldn't be doing better than random chance. Do you have any really clear examples of scumslips from your past games possibly that can help me see what I should be looking for?
Translation:
I'm worried about scum-slipping.

In post 64, Sobolev Space wrote:When I played in the past I found I got overly defensive when people accused me of being mafia. Do you have any good suggestions for how a townie (like me :wink: ) should react when others are trying to build a wagon on them?
Translation:
I'm worried about not reacting like a townie when I get wagoned.

In post 64, Sobolev Space wrote:@Joshz and Human Sequencer. This whole exchange just looks like a misunderstanding. I think Joshz explained how he decides to do RVS voting convincingly (i.e. vote least active people) and the naked vote doesn't look scummy since he wan't actually pushing for a lynch. At the same time questioning the naked vote seems reasonable and I don't really see Sequencer trying to build a wagon on Joshz (at least not yet).
Translation:
I know you both are town and look how townie I am for not accusing either of you.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #70 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:46 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 64, Sobolev Space wrote:@Psyche a couple questions about overall game stuff. I've played f2f a couple times but I feel like online its so easy for scum to emulate town perfectly people really shouldn't be doing better than random chance. Do you have any really clear examples of scumslips from your past games possibly that can help me see what I should be looking for?
Not that I can find easily. Playing mafia is hard. Every time I've done a study to identify scumtells (ie detectable behaviors related with being scum), I've gotten null results, though I haven't been able to do serious studies beyond word choice analysis. It's also really hard to design a study to determine if anyone's better than chance at finding scum due to power roles and the collaborative nature of the game. Town in general lose well-balanced games than win, so at the very least it seems clear that it's much easier to do well as scum than it is to do well as town. I don't think it's
so
easy for scum to emulate town, especially if town aggressively pressure them in the right way, but I haven't pinned down a clear method for doing that reliably. Part of what makes mafia fun for me is how hard it is (when you're town).

More optimistically, there's one case where it's really hard for scum to emulate town - when it's against their best interests. Scum need to get town lynched while avoiding their own and their own teammates deaths as well. Bussing (voting for and lynching a scum teammate) is a strategy lots of scum try, especially when it seems inevitable that a teammate will die anyway, but even then I suspect it's possible to find scum by examining the time course, vigor, and rigor of their positions/votes over the course of a Day and game. A word for a form of this is "Vote Count Analysis", and in my experience it really works; I advise searching for it in the MD subforum. The problem is that no one has specified an algorithm for performing VCA that's been shown to actually work (in part because there's a lot of subjectivity to it), and I haven't had the time/method to do my own research to test the idea. But I
do
think because of this idea that scum must sometimes act like scum in order to further their interests that it's possible for people to do better than random chance in text-based games.
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #71 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:49 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 64, Sobolev Space wrote:When I played in the past I found I got overly defensive when people accused me of being mafia. Do you have any good suggestions for how a townie (like me ) should react when others are trying to build a wagon on them?
Standard suggestion given when people ask this is to first identify and address the motive/justification for the votes as quickly as possible. People tend to tie their votes to accusations or readings of your play; you can try to refute those, and if you do it convincingly (requires good rhetoric!), then people will stop voting for you. But even while you're spending time managing the wagon on you, it's advised to also be paying attention to your main job as town: finding and pushing the lynches of scum. Often, besides being what will ultimately keep town from getting lynched, doing that has a lot of rhetorical value for you: if you're convincingly looking for and even finding scum, then that's more reason not to think you're scum yourself.
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #72 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:52 am

Post by Psyche »

In post 65, Loopdan wrote:VOTE: Sobolev Space

One scum down.
RVS is over. You don't look very interested in finding scum if your votes don't actually show effort to advance discussion and/or get scum lynched.

For that reason,
vote Loopdan
You can't step in the same river twice.
User avatar
Sobolev Space
Sobolev Space
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Sobolev Space
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1170
Joined: November 6, 2016
Location: Denver, CO

Post Post #73 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:12 am

Post by Sobolev Space »

@loopdan
re: my questions to Psyche
I think I gave pretty good reasons in my post for why I'm asking these questions to the IC. If you don't believe my reasons are legitimate or have questions about them then you should bring those up before trying to establish an ulterior motive. Any question to the IC can be construed as "oh I'm scum and just trying to figure out how to fool town" - I think you have to do a little more work than just saying I
could
have some other motive. Especially since the purpose of these newbie games is to learn and I'm just trying to get up to speed on mafia theory here for future games.

Also with regard to me not wanting to get lynched: everyone has a motive to not get lynched, not just scum. Every mislynch hurts town's win condition so if I'm town I'm gonna try just as hard as I can to not get lynched (short of lying), right?

re: my comments on Joshz/Human Sequencer
It was more I wasn't convinced that either of them were acting scummy (for reasons I gave in the post) and didn't want to get the thread derailed with an irrelevant argument when we could be doing more constructive stuff.

@Psyche: Thanks for the comments! I think the stuff about how town should do better than random chance is especially interesting. It seems to come down to a lot of subjective or hard to codify rules which is what got me interested in mafia in the first place.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10908
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #74 (ISO) » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:21 am

Post by Psyche »

unvote

missed last post

probably have more of a townread than not from sobolev's questions, though asking them is an easy scum tactic
You can't step in the same river twice.

Return to “Completed Newbie Games”