Mini 499: Just Your typical Mafia Game GAME OVER!!!!!!!!

[shaka!!]

Huck is correct. The reason I asked you if you were ignoring my post was to see if you were going to respond or not.

unvote: cicero

After rereading the you know your scum post. I've seen that I've read it out of context, and with that I've seen how TS used it out of context to make it seem like a scum slip up.

At first I was ignoring the misrepresentations because I thought that they could be a slip up in the reading, but I'm starting to doubt it the more I see it.

I am not taking the 4 vote copies into account because it is too double sided. It could be seen as scum buddying or as townies in agreement, both of the situations seems more then ok, in fact I am more likely to believe that they are townie agreements. TS if you want to really prove this as a point find out if they were voting with the same reasons or if they had there own agenda.

Mod Edit

Vote Count

Toaster Strudel- 2 (ChocolateAttack, cicero)

cicero- 1 (Toaster Strudel)
pwayne66- 1 (HackerHuck)



Not Voting- 2 (TheHermit, Skruffs)

5 to lynch

I'll allow one final extension to December 12th, but that is the very final extension I'll allow.

2 weeks till deadline

[TheHermit]

55: Gorgon gives a free pass to cheeky-little-asian BS reasoning about cicero not being scum. Given that Gorgon was scum, I find this telling; early buddying up with a town, perhaps?

107: Battle Mage comes flying out of the gate gunning hard for cicero's lynch. I really don't like how he says lynching cicero will "provide information", which I typically read as a scum excuse to lynch a townie and get away with it.

128: Prof. Guppy points out that people who need to be replaced more often are town more often than scum. I don't have the data to assess the accuracy of this statement, so I'll have to dismiss this as a tell of inconsequential worth.

141: That's an awesome pro-town philosophy, BM. He rushes into the game making wild accusations on poor logic, and when he fails to immediately take control of the town he shrugs his shoulders and says "You're on your own". A strong push to make it look like he's pro-town, but then absolves himself of any responsibility for anything that follows. This is scummy, and I'm afraid it's going to reflect poorly on his successors.

146: Every time someone argues for NoLynch the dent in TheHermit's wall that is at roughly forehead height gets a little bigger. WHEN will people realize that this is a stupid move and should never, ever be considered? I find if very difficult to read newbies, so I can't comment much on any of the Guppy fiasco that followed this. Other than that my experience has been that someone who makes newbie mistakes usually turn out to be town, though I chalk this up to any given player being statistically more likely to be town than scum.

256: Gorgon is trying very hard to buddy up with cicero.

565: I agree that asking for a deadline is very suspicious.

583: The whole "Lynch Kakeng" movement sends shivers up my spine. We're dealing with some very cowardly scum here, who would try to get someone lynched while they weren't around to defend themselves. There's scum on that there bandwagon. And I'm looking at the person who got the whole thing rolling in the first place.

690: Pointing out how your own actions are town tells is as WIFOM as it gets, cicero.

699: No, pwayne. Lynching people who act against the town is not scummy.

760: Not sure that I agree we have both a vig and an SK. On the one hand, that opens up some very bad balance issues... with lucky scumkills and an unlucky vig, it would be a game over on Day 3. Then again, second-guessing the mod is what led to skitzer's death. We know we have, at the very least, one of those two.

769: I disagree with this. Skruffs and cicero doesn't look like a fake argument. I won't say it looks like townies arguing, though. Just two people who don't know each other. I'm fairly certain one of those two is scum. This doesn't give the other one a free pass though; the other might be an SK.

785: shaka unvotes HH because he "likes what he sees". HH has made exactly one post with content at this point, mostly musing about whether it is correct to assume both an SK and a vig. If his vote was scummy, his reasons for unvoting are even more bizarre.

806: Something strikes me as very wrong when you start analyzing things based on your conclusion being correct to begin with. Normally you take the evidence and then decide what it means, not the other way around, right?

809: It suddenly strikes me as though cicero is trying too hard to distance himself from Gorgon. How many times has he said "I had no idea Gorgon was scum" since the start of the day? Five times, at least. He's a terrible liar. I'm thinking he either is trying to pull away from his scumbuddy, or he's trying to act like he couldn't have killed him.

839: Vehemently disagree with CA's assertion that a very active player cannot be scum. I played a mafia game on another site in which I was very active with scumhunting and pressuring other players. I successfully claimed vigilante to cover up my NKs (which was easy to do, since there was a second scumteam to use as a scapegoat), and my scumteam ended up the winner because by the end of the game the only heavily active players left were scum! You know your win is in the bag when a townie death directly contradicts your scumbuddy's claim... and nobody bats an eye. Great fun. But yes, back on topic; active =/= townish.

983: And the dent grows larger...

991-2: Though I think cicero is scum and that skruffs might be scum, I have to admit that this is a very good point. pwayne has been very passive and spending most of his time dragging out the day. I recently used this strategy to win as scum; stalling the game while at deadline to force the town to make a bad decision. He could just be a passive player, but I just call my scumtells as I see 'em.

1022: My second predecessor appears! Apparently this doesn't last long...

1075: I can feel the desperation in the air. shaka is really reaching. But then, I've seen scum successfully dayvigged for less so...

1082: TS claiming in the face of little or no pressure? What the hell...

1111: I love how every time cicero responds to someone bringing up evidence against him, he can't help but sneak in a verbal jab. I think he's intentionally trying to infuriate people, but to what end?

1123: TS needs to get it smacked into his head: 0% mafia and 35% SK is 65% town. Who would ignore all other targets in favor of someone who you feel is more likely than not town?

Aaaaaand now I've done something stupid and stayed up until 5 AM reading this game. I'll be back tomorrow, when I finish catching up and post my scumdar.

[cicero]

Hmm... Hackerhuck your "let's lynch Cicero" Svengali post troubles me.

This makes me think you're being overdefensive. I simply pointed out that I think you're acting scummier than before.

Overdefensive is such a crap accusation. It's a null tell and one of those useless things that gets townies lynched. Maybe your experience is different but I wont be calming down for you. Especially when I'm trying to speed the game up. I stand by what I said. I know you may very well be town. You've been 50/50 for me the whole game. But you definitely looked scummier after this post.

You've now called two people over-defensive for trying to defend themselves. At the same time, "Strudel", who is just as "defensive" as I am once attacked used to be high on your list. Now she's quite low somehow even though she misrepresents a great deal and is in the same "spot" as your previous suspect numero uno White. So you are inconsistent yet You seem to think that you can measure scummy with exclamation points or something. You can't.

I think we all know that it's next to impossible to prove a negative (i.e. no connection) so the fact that he's putting a lot of effort into it strikes me as overdefensive.

Do you really think he'd do better not addressing it at this point? That's just silly. When people see entire tendriling theories growing out of premises they know to be false they get testy. Plus Pwayne thinks I'm a loose cannon and the last person he wants to be tied too. I don't much blame him. (

I still got my eye on you as a possible serial killer, scumbuddy pwayne

)

Your comments here also make it seem like you want his actions to be swept away, because he's put in a no-win situation.

Nope. I've made my comments on his play a million times. I want his actions decoupled from mine. I want this because theories based on this are based on a false premise and are

bad for the town

To me, this is more evidence of you buddying up to Pwayne while he's pushing away.

I dont generally accuse my friends of having a real probability of being the serial killer. It can attract ropes to their necks. You'll note Chocolate Attack perked up.

Given his postings, I'm finding it hard to imagine Pwayne as scum without Cicero as scum. I'm starting to rethink lumping Cicero into my probably town bucket.

This is the second part of the plan. "Guys let's lynch Cicero not Pwayne. That'll test them both for me."

This is why I mentioned you're being overdefensive. If that were my plan, I'd push for your lynch.

No. Not necessarily. And you know that. That post was more effective than a vote in some ways. See, what scum do - smart scum like I'm sure you would be - is to try to steer the town. That's what is interesting about your post. You came in to say "I'm still happy with Pwayne but one way to test it is to lynch Cicero, guys..." When you said it, I was quite the centre of attention. And now you reverse it here. Basically you threw my lynch up as a way to test Pwayne's scumminess based on a crap theory... and then you just reversed it here:

Right now I'm voting for Pwayne and if he turns up scum I'm going to start focusing on you.

So again we are coupled. And it would be way cool if everyone else would vote me so you could avoid getting your hands dirty. And it would also be cool if I stopped defending myself because I wouldnt want to appear "overdefensive".

I don't see how scum would benefit from the amount of defending he's doing to avoid being paired with you. It's making him look scummier in my eyes, so I don't get why he would do it. I've seen scum try and pull town down with them, but not try and push town away.

Lots of reasons are easily conceivable. I'm a loose cannon and Pwayne knows it. Being tied to me is bad for his survival. Note how you, innocent townie that you are, wandered by and just proposed lynching either Cicero or Pwayne to test the other. We've both been dealing with this crap for a few pages now and we both know it to be false.

Hell half the case against him is that he's my buddy. Whether he is scum or town he has motive to push me away. And let me tell you a secret, the only reason I keep ending up in bed with him - like this post - is because I see a lot of scummy logic happening like you just pushed. "If Pwayne is scum, why would he push Cicero away"? Honestly. Read the game. That isnt something to answer with a rhetorical question. There's an actual answer.

I can't wait to get away from Pwayne in this game so I can look at him objectively.

Interesting how you think I'm trying to get you lynched when I'm not voting you, but you use that as your defense for how you're not pushing for SSF. Just three days ago you mentioned that you would be bussing flea and two days ago you pushed Pwayne again on his thoughts on Flea. You might be voting TS, but you seem pretty keen on a flea lynch.

Well of course that's no secret. He refused on principle to do anything to dissuade me and you and Jester both came in and found him highly scummy. Yet he's had some sort of magical lynch immunity bracelet.

More importantly though this is apples and oranges. My problem was how your post felt like a string pulling post. Maybe I'm being suckered again like Gorgon did to me, but CA and TheHermit both came in with much more honest sounding reads to me. And Hermit came up calling me probable scum! But at least I felt like his post was real. Yours felt fake and agenda driven. The Hackerhuck Toaster Strudel alliance got considerably more traction from it from me. You just popped in to this game in order to go with what you thought the flow was from the looks of it. Like I said steeeeeeer that boat.

My mistake, I did misread.

Cool. Please note Strudel throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. That one almost did. She's a dangerous little liar that one.

I don't see that comment as being pro-town in any way. I know that TS plays an odd game, but I cannot fathom her pretendign to be vanilla when she's a power role.

I can see me doing it and I'm not nearly as kooky. And I just watched Pooky do it in now completed mafia 63. You need to look into deeper fathoms, captain. I can also see her saying vanilla, claiming power later with a breadcrumb, and being scum. She's so strategic she has two accounts. But basically your point then is if we claim vanilla town we must Be vanilla town?

You've hit the nail on the head here. I think Shaka made that post to push you a bit and see where you took it. That's not scummy in my eyes, but rather a scum hunting technique.

I think it's possibly both. In our last game Pwayne was good at egging me on so I'd get excited and people would say "ooh cranky! must be scum". Also, remember that the scum need to scumhunt in this game too. But I didnt draw any conclusions about alignment from Shaka's post really. He's flirted with suspecting me before and imho looked honest doing it.

[TheHermit]

And now, the thrilling conclusion!

cicero - His whole posting style rubs me the wrong way. I don't like how he reacted to Gorgon's cardflip; the pairing is too obvious for him to be a scumbuddy, but his contrition makes me think he's got something else to hide. On the one hand, he's been trying to get everyone to scumhunt. On the other, he tried to organize a lynch on a player he knew to be inactive. I haven't been here so maybe I don't understand the level of malaise this town sunk to, but that's not something I can overlook easily.

Maybe SK.

Toaster Strudel - His play today has been terrible. Keeps claiming vanilla townie, and started when he wasn't under any pressure. Uh-huh. Made a huge screaming deal (going so far as to change the color of his text for emphasis) then admits that it's not a huge deal once it's proven to be full of crap. Severe tunnel vision regarding cicero and everyone that defends him; I expect him to roleclaim cop who got a guilty investigation if he gets into trouble, but I don't buy it.

Probably scum.

HackerHuck - I really didn't like BM's playstyle, and Hacker has subbed into his role. Despite this, he's been playing a pretty good game. His logic is solid, his scumhunting looks genuine... Not really sure where he stands yet, but with so many more deserving targets I would NOT be supportive of an HH lynch today.

Neutral, leaning town.

shaka!! - I see this guy as a provocateur. I notice that he doesn't post long diatribes like most of the other posters in this game, but he instead needles his victim whenever he thinks the conversation is shifting away from him. Nothing about him jumps out at me right now, so I'm going to give him the default

maybe scum

. Yes, I start off my games thinking everyone's a little bit scummy.

pwayne - While I don't like how he seems to be trying to hover on the edge of the battlefield, he's been remarkably adept at defense. And after one particular Mini I was in recently, I don't see arguing strongly for one's innocence as "overdefensive" or scummy.

Neutral.

Skruffs - How this position lasted through Hurricane Guppy I'll never understand; in almost every other mafia game I've been in he'd have been lynched three times before he hit the ground (though Guppy was more obviously noob than scum). pwayne posted an entire list of questions he hadn't answered, then he shrugs and says he thought he answered everything. His case against cicero isn't very solid, and I say this even while I'm fingering cicero as the most probable SK candidate.

Probably scum.

Chocolate Attack - Lurking as much as possible without being replaced. And yeah, I can see that it's not his fault so I won't ding him too badly for it. Honestly, I get a headache when I look at his posts. No offense, but I'm one of those sticklers for spelling and grammar that gets annoyed when a sentence starts with a lowercase letter. I know it's a horrible thing to say (isn't English his second language?) but that's just me, not my role. If he said anything really insightful I'd appreciate it being pointed out to me, otherwise I'm going to give him the default

maybe scum

designation.

The person I suspect most right now is Toaster Strudel. I don't really have a problem with putting him at L-1. And since he already claimed vanilla, I wouldn't have much of a problem with a hammer either because I don't believe that claim.

Vote: Toaster Strudel

[TheHermit]

Oh, also, I'm all caught up. So you can feel free to toss some of those rotten tomatoes at me now!

[cicero]

:good posting:

You made me more likely to think of that spot as town in a couple of posts than your predecessor did all game. Which doesn't mean I necessarily think you're town. But I really appreciate you taking up the game.

Incidentally, my contrition is based on my total genuine embarrassment about Gorgon. That's what I have to hide. He made me feel like a complete idiot. And there was definitely some defensiveness involved. I knew his death had to look bad on me because I was so vocally of the belief that he was pro-town and he was so totally in agreement with me. So I was completely awkward over his death. People who get scummy vibes over the thing - which is, I believe, everybody - arent wrong in feeling them. They just would be wrong to think we were connected. I would have been way more distant with my partner and probably picked at least one fight.

I also think you make a sensible point about the SK-ness under the "He who smelt it dealt it" principle of scumhunting. He who is pointing out the SK might BE the SK. The only point I guess I could make is that running around rubbing people the wrong way and taking the risks I'm taking doesn't seem like sensible SK play. So either this is just me and I would play this way whether I was SK or not... or once again like the rest of the theories about me, I'm playing sub-optimally on purpose for WIFOM reasons. Personally I think just playing optimally is way smarter. Something to think about. I think Pwayne's play or your predecessor's is far more likely serial killer behavior, but meh who knows. I havent played with enough of them to be sure. Especially since Under the Radar in this game is a good way to get you On The Radar. But isn't that exactly when Pwayne changed his play style?? Once he was On The Radar?

Thanks again for your work and welcome to the game.

[shaka!!]

Wow Hermit, you did the impossible. Thanks for subbing in.

I'm not sure if I'm ready for a TS lynch. There may be a great deal to put against her, but I don't see anything definitive.

If she comes in posting the whole "lynch me I'm vanilla" deal I promise she is as good as dead. You are quite right about me being a provocateur, but this is only due to me being easily aggravated.

[cicero]

Wow Hermit, you did the impossible. Thanks for subbing in.

I'm not sure if I'm ready for a TS lynch. There may be a great deal to put against her, but I don't see anything definitive.

If she comes in posting the whole "lynch me I'm vanilla" deal I promise she is as good as dead. You are quite right about me being a provocateur, but this is only due to me being easily aggravated.

... and being a little bitch!


(just kidding.)

[TheHermit]

I can't help but feel I'm getting buttered up. Was SSF REALLY that scummy?

They just would be wrong to think we were connected. I would have been way more distant with my partner and probably picked at least one fight.

My argument partially hinges on that; I DON'T think the two of you are connected. There's no way Gorgon would follow you that closely if you were scumbuddies. WIFOM aside it's just bad play, and I don't see Gorgon as a bad player. To top it off, you didn't react to it as a scum; a scum would likely have said something simple like, "Oops, my bad" and swept it under the rug as quickly as possible, instead of drawing such attention to it as you have. So I know you're not scumpartners with him. But then what about all your other behavior? Hm. You're not mafia, I know that much. So if you're acting scummy, it's because you must be the SK and not because you're mafia.

I also think you make a sensible point about the SK-ness under the "He who smelt it dealt it" principle of scumhunting. He who is pointing out the SK might BE the SK. The only point I guess I could make is that running around rubbing people the wrong way and taking the risks I'm taking doesn't seem like sensible SK play.

I have never been in a game with an SK nor have I played as an SK, so I'm not 100% sure what they would act like. But your playstyle seems like something a bold SK might try. Drop a few minor scumtells, enough so that it's convenient for the mafia to keep you around to throw suspicion on later but not so strong that town starts measuring you for your hemp necktie. Staying active so you don't get roasted for lurking or "playing to survive", one of the basic SK tells. Nothing conclusive, of course, and this strategy would require a very skilled player to pull off.

So either this is just me and I would play this way whether I was SK or not... or once again like the rest of the theories about me, I'm playing sub-optimally on purpose for WIFOM reasons.

This is where the dilemma comes in. Is this just your playing style? Or are you being tricky? That is what the game comes down to, in the end. To read my analysis one way, I'm about as sure of you being SK as I am of CA being scum. Which is to say, "not very, but the thought has occurred to me and I'm keeping my options open". But hey! At least I'm pretty sure you're not mafia, right?

Thanks again for your work and welcome to the game.

Danke. I'm given to understand a lot of people didn't like my predecessor's play, so I hope I can eventually shrug off his bad karma.

You are quite right about me being a provocateur, but this is only due to me being easily aggravated.

It's the sort of thing that says more about the player than the role. Don't take it too personally. Or at the very least, don't think I'm using it as evidence that you're scum, because I don't see how it could be.

[cicero]

I can't help but feel I'm getting buttered up. Was SSF REALLY that scummy?

Yup. At least to me. But then Gorgon was Obv Town so... what the frak do I know. :p

I have never been in a game with an SK nor have I played as an SK, so I'm not 100% sure what they would act like. But your playstyle seems like something a bold SK might try. Drop a few minor scumtells, enough so that it's convenient for the mafia to keep you around to throw suspicion on later but not so strong that town starts measuring you for your hemp necktie. Staying active so you don't get roasted for lurking or "playing to survive", one of the basic SK tells. Nothing conclusive, of course, and this strategy would require a very skilled player to pull off.

Good thinking. I could argue against this but it makes some sense. I've never played as an SK either, (including in this game) so I dont know how I'd play. But I'm betting it wouldnt be much different. So far I haven't found that my role has affected my play as much as I thought it was but I'm practically always town aligned (not lucky enough to play scum) so I dont know.

Anyway, it's good thinking because you made me realise I was more focussed on lynches not nightkills in my "survival" analysis. That's why lurking would be good strategy. But the trouble is at that point, you've basically described how everyone wants to play. :p Scummy enough to avoid nightkill. Town enough to avoid the noose. Personally I just try to do what's in the best interests of the town and the scummy apparently happens naturally. In every game. Go look. My Wiki is up to date. There arent many games but there's lots of accusations of Cicero is scum

K. Friendly time is over. I need to parse you now and read closely. I may return with very pointed questions.

[shaka!!]

Mod,

when is our deadline?

[ChocolateAttack]

Hermit: yeah, I am an ESL and so bare with my English. Sorry for the trouble though.

I played as sk before and what i did was going with the flow of the town. Active but not too stand out, contribute to the town and scumhunt, lynch mafias as a normal town would do. At night, my first kill on the list would be the cop or mafias since those two roles are the most threatening to sk and also, i claimed to be vig when town got me roleclaimed.

[ChocolateAttack]

Oh! about my post 1172, it was a long post, usually i don't make long post cause of my English and i know it would confuse everyone. I just want to know how bad was that post? Is it clear or confusing?

[cicero]

Chocolate Attack: It was, to me, your clearest post. You should do longer posts more often. Also: good practice.

[pwayne66]

I'm still working on my PBP, real life and studying are catching up with me. Maybe tomorrow, certainly by Monday. Nice summary Hermes. I think TS is at L-2 not L-1, I unvoted. You, CA and Cicero make three.

[Skruffs]

Question, Cicero:

What could skitzer have said (Now that we know he is telling the truth) that would have changed your mind about him? You kind of dangled that 'fruit' in front of him a few times before saying (Shortly before he quoted his role PM - which you immediately took as the truth) that he has


You also said, "I don't want to lynch a townie, but you aren't giving us much to work with here." You said it in two sentences, but grammatically, they were one. I think you had a good feeling that he was town before he died, even before he quoted his Role PM, and you were baiting him. Just like you say you are doing today.

As part of the reason for why you wanted to see Theopor modkilled, you stated that maybe it was a Gorgon-Skruffs-Theopor mafia team. Suggesting that someone may be scum and that is why people should endorse them being modkilled, that is scummy. The only reason you can honestly say you suggested that was because you were looking for support from the town. Why? Hmm. Why, INDEED.

You suggested to me that lynching someone who was a detriment to the town would interfere with my scum hunting. HOWEVER, you have *consistently* used lurking as a reason to try and lynch people, which is in fact doing the exact same thing. If I remember correctly, that was when we were discussing your "Rule" That you don't lynch townspeople (n00bs) day one because they are more likely town. A rule you immediately broke with a vote on a towns-person, in the same post. Oh yes, I am going to continue bringing it up. Why shouldn't I? You are attemtping to enforce modes of behavior on other players while not following those modes of behavior yourself.

Oh, and what is this.... Scum act town day One. Gorgon is obv obv obv obv obv town. And Skitzer can't find a way to 'prove' to you that his claim is real.

Vote : Guardian

I'm pretty happy with this. And you can say anything you want about my intelligence, my playstyle, my method of hunting scum, etc. That's fine. I *honestly* believe I have caught scum, whereas you have been doing a tricksy, extravagant dance of misdirection and deception for the last two days. What do you *honestly* believe?

OK, here is my stand on this game.

I am a backup. I don't care if you guys don't believe me, I know it's true. Anyway, since there is at least one backup (I still believe that there are others) there must be power roles(that's obvious). Therefore, we have to think this through even more thoroughly. If the mafia really want to be successful, they should get rid of the backups before they find the town roles.

So, in that case, I'm dead anyway. Lynch me if you honestly want to hang something that'll be dead tomorrow. Instead, let's try finding someone who actually is scum, so the town is actually helped.

No. Not necessarily. Because if there are power roles there is probably a cop and a doctor (especially if there are "two backups" as you suggest). So if you lived throught he night you would be swearing up and down that you must have gotten doctor protection. And mafia could always target someone else - like someone who investigates a lot for example. While leaving you as easy pickins for later. Your death is by no means assured.

I get your point though. But look - you can't just come in and say "i'm backup. I'm backup" over and over. That's what scum does in your position anyway. I don't want to lynch a townie, believe me. And I was all out in front on having AlyG's back at the beginning. But you aren't giving us much to work with here. You have a weirdo backup role that apparently can morph into either cop or doctor that no one has heard of before, and your play is either scummy or kind of "who gives a crap". You accused me and didn't answer my questions about it. Just said you didn't know how to. No evidence given, no effort put into the game, just a desire to say whatever you need to say for self, rather than town, preservation.

So what am I supposed to think? Know what I mean?

Well okey. But you haven't given me any reason to unvote you. If you turn up town... post lynch... that's something you did to the town. (or maybe that the mod did to the town by adding in a squirrelly never before seen role in a normal mini-game )

Side note: Welcome to the game Hermit.

[TheHermit]

Thanks for the welcome, and I can see this being a legitimate case against cicero. But...

Vote : Guardian

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to vote for someone who's not in the game.

[cicero]

Heya Skruffs. Good to have you back. I thought you forgot about me. Dare I say it I also thought you might have honestly been reconsidering. No such luck.

First, I'm assuming that vote for Guardian is for me? Who is this Guardian guy anyway? You may want to fix that if you want to get me lynched.

Second, it isn't a *rule*. It's a consideration. A strong consideration. I weigh it against other things like whether
a) a claim seems unbelievable or
b) the fact that he replaced a lurker.

The fact that Skitzer was incompetent doesnt mean he wasnt scum. You've been trying to turn my concern for incompetent newbies into a scumtell for 40 pages now. It isn't working. I don't know why you can't grasp this stuff in an honest way but it's making me rethink your innocence. I need to go read some games where you were scum, I think. Because this is bordering on the preposterous.

If you want me to write you the post AlyG or Skitzer might have done, them mentioning that their powers weren't as effective would have been nice. I only know that because of the fact that Skitzer posted his role PM. As it was no one in the game could believe the role because no one had ever seen it before. It also (sorry JordanA) kinda makes no sense from a suspension of disbelief perspective. Where does one train to become a backup everything, one wonders.

As you can tell though from your quote I was pressuring Skitzer to play the game right. Cajoling and pushing him to make cases, get in the game, explaining things. Asking him to give me *something*. And then he went and got himself modkilled so quit acting like I got him hammered.

Third, Theo's chair needed to get replaced. No replacement means he needed modkilling. And I like deadlines too. You don't like it, vote away.

Fourth, Lurking is a strategy and is a scumtell. It helps scum hide. Incompetent newbishness is a context to take into account when measuring scumtells. Less experience and greater evidence of incompetence = more benefit of the doubt from Cicero. That doesnt mean it's a get out of lynch free card. Just a strong consideration.

Fifth, it would be so much nicer to answer these questions if I thought you would listen. I learned a phrase in mafia discussion today. It's called "confirmation bias". Ask Seol about it. That's your problem. You think you've found scum so everything becomes evidence of scumminess.

Sixth, Why are you re-bringing up things I've already answered for you repeatedly? Trying to impress the new guy?

[Skruffs]

"Could be a long day if we have to wait for responses" followed by a reminder he is at -2. DId you vote? No. Did you expound on the case? No.

Unlike the AlyG wagon, where you questioned if the votes on it were still random, the CLA you make no attempt to hinder. And the "Man day will take a while if we have to WAIT for him" is a subtle goad to encourage people to lynch him (without you getting your hands dirty).

So, I defended on confirmed townie and I didn't defend another confirmed townie. That's pushing?

?
When did CLA become confirmed? Is this a slip? And yes, it is pushing. If there are five cups in front of me and I push four of them away, that leaves that fifth cup still within reach. By cutting down every wagon you don't like and ignoring the one you do, you allow other players to do your mislynching for you. IS pushing the wrong word? Maybe. Is the theory apt? Think so.

To tell the truth, I did a quick meta of CLA and determined that this was a pattern for his play. I didn't vote because he was at lynch -2. I didn't expound on the case because there was none. This post was a deliberate challenge to CLA to post and a warning that he was at L-2. I thought he needed pressure.

Is this scummy?

IT depends. If you meta'd him and thought he was town, why would you want to apply pressure? Or rather, why would you want to focus more attention on him? If you think he is town, you *should* be looking at people you think are scum.

and then

Tell me, had I venomously defended CLA, would you be saying that I was scummy for doing so? Why or why not?

Yes, I would, because the point of TOWN in a MAFIA Game is to investigate. Putting pressure on someone without asking questions, and undercutting them without giving them anything to respond to (Like saying something like "This is going to take a while if we wait for him to TALK"), that's not scum hunting, it's just keeping the focus on other people without actually tryign to derive information. Scum want to kill, the rest of us want to put the pieces together.

^^^Can you see why I feel like you have a vested interest in nailing me, whether I am scum or not?

You only *NAIL* scum. Am I interested in persecution? No. Have *YOU* sufficently answered my suspicions to the point I find my attention going elsewhere? No. When they are answered, will my attention move on? Yes. Is posting suspicions scummy? NO.

You then work to dismantle the Orlowski wagon, makign your own opinions about him with NO knowledge to back it up.
"He may be acting scummy as hell, but I like him, so build a stronger case if you want my support" is the general equivalent of what you are saying,

How did I work to dismantle this wagon?

and then

Even if I did, how is dismanteling a wagon scummy, unless you believe I was defending my partner?

In doing that, you are putting the burden of 'proof' on players, day one, with no information to go on, RATHER than actually investigating yourself. Telling other people to get a stronger case only (As said earlier) keeps attention on them and their suspected player without leaving ANY trails back to you. And I'm not sure why doing that could benefit you at all, as town, wether the person they target is scum or town. Town *wants* To get out there and get dirty and find otu what's going on - whereas your attitude (at least in the beginning) was that that was what "other people" were supposed to do.

then you push the CLA wagon *more* with "The CLA wagon seems justified. The town isn't working cohesively to sniff out scum and I blame the unanswered questions leveled at CLA and Borchmore absence. Scum or not, CLA is hurting the town at this point."
So even in this post, you are saying that people who defend themselves are fine, people who don't talk are good to lynch, and people who attack people who are acting scummy, you just turn a blind eye to.

Please point to the post where I say "people who defend themselves are fine, people who don't talk are good to lynch, and people who attack people who are acting scummy, you just turn a blind eye to."

If you can't, please add this to the list of things that you have mischaracterized about me.

The post is in quotes. You quoted it yourself. Also quoted is the "Other people need to hunt scum, not me" attitude you have had until you changed it (you did change it right, Cicero says you did) today.

Anyway, as I said, I do think that the wagon was justified. CLA needed pressure. I didn't want him lynched.

Do you disagree pressuring CLA was justified? Why?

I don't see the point of putting someone you feel is town close to lynch.
Do you? Explain.

2 - You deflected the case on Cicero off of him, yesterday. Are you not aware of this?

I didn't know that Cicero had claimed, this might explain my confusion and why I wasn't able to answer. I don't take BM's case seriously, so I don't see that I deflected a case as much as tried to flush out scum trying to use crappy logic.

Define "Crappy Logic", please. You use that term a lot.

Do you think that BM had a serious case?

and

Do you think that crappy logic is a scumtell that ought to be questioned?

Tell me what crappy logic is. People asking for 'proof' of someone's alignment when the cop is dead, I doubt will find *any* logic as anything but scummy, but that's just another excuse to hide behidn to avoid e investing yourself into possibly being wrong.

Here I deny the claim that I am not considering Cicero, twice. The fact that you keep saying that I have said I won't even consider him is one of the points that I consider a mischaraterization to be addressed later.

Why do you continue to assert that I am not considering cicero? I have not voted for or expressed any real suspicions of Shaka either. Do you suspect that I am not considering him?

Because all you had done (up to the point where you posted that) was deny the claim. You hadn't actually considered him. If you ddi consider him, you took efforts to hide that. ANd when pressured why you were being so friendly towards him, and were so vested in him knowing there were no hard feelings, you said that is was because of a previous game. This is a new game. It is your job to find out who is scum. Intentionally ignoring someone because of another game, or for any reason, is not helpful. You had cicero 'written off' long before you began to say you didn't. It took me over a month of pressuring the two of you but you are just finally starting to 'look' at each other, at all, with anything other than rose colored glasses. I'm glad you finally are, because if either of you are town, you are going to be needed to loko at EVERY player objectively. You were *not* looking at him objectively, and you defended that not-doing-so with, I think, crap-reasons. Would you want to lose the game, as town, because you were being nice to someone that yuo killed as scum in a previous game? I doubt it.


Oh look, I"ve said all that before. But you don't seem to get it:

One of the biggest frustrations and suspicions I have about you being scum with him is your reluctance to consider him as possibly being scum, even going so far as to 'bury the hatchet', publicly, in a different game from the last one, which makes ties between you. Then to say that that's all it is, and to SAY you have no idea what Cicero is, but to then continue to strike down other people's arguments and NOT offer any observations of your own, which is DEFENDING him, I am confused why you even feel like you have to ask this question.

I don't know what question you are refering to. I only "publicly buried the hatchet" when asked about our friendly banter. Again, I have considered Cicero and continue to do so (in fact, the ploy with shaka and TS is pinging quite a bit). What you are really frustrated and suspicious of is the fact that I don't think your case holds water. I was not defending cicero from your case until you called me out for ignoring it. I said jack shite about it for a month.

Do you feel that the fact that I had ignored your case for a month, is consistent with your claim that I am defending Cicero, my scum buddy?

Admitting to intentionally ignoring a case, is scummy. Regardless of who's scum with who. Especially when you are also trying to state that you are considering Cicero, and yet not directing any attention/questions to him and in fact are dismantling other questions that are thrown at him for him. No, it doesn't look good at all.

If I was interested in defending my scum buddy, I would not do so when they had 1 vote based on a cracked case. This goes for you and it goes for BM. Neither of you were even close to convincing anybody to vote for Cicero.

So why would I come to my scum buddies defense? How is this consistant me "playing behind the scenes"?

Accuse me of WIFOM if you want, but this picture is hugely inconsistant.

Nobody can publicly meta themselves. Even if it's true, it no longer becomes legit because they are talking about themselves which means awareness of their actions which makes it no longer a meta. You can say that I was not even close to convincing anyone to vote for Cicero, but a large part of that had to do with you stepping in and putting an end to what you see as crap-logic cases. Or, wait, ignoring the case. Maybe you are afraid that if you actually do scum hunting of your own, it will come back to bite you. Maybe you are trying to look like a Survivor.

You miss the point of that post. It is this: If you think somebody is scum, and nobody else sees it, it is your responsiblity to convince them by building a case.

Do you disagree?

I Actually agree, and yet that is exactly what you have been trying to prevent me from doing.

Did I whine about days going on forever?

Different strokes I guess. Example: It seems to me that you like to find people that strike you as weird and then try to build a case around them. I perfer to anaylsis what everybody else is doing, who they choose to target, anaylize there reasons, detect deliberately weak logic and ask them why they are trying to lynch on weak logic.

Do you think that this is a bad scum hunting strategy?

Not true, I do not look for 'weird players'. That's the opposite of how I hunt. I hunt by looking for players who are trying to look more normal than they should be. Toaster Strudel has been buddying up to me all day, now, but she *Does* act like this in games. So that's normal. Likewise, if you are doing analyzing, it seems to be mostly on your own end without sharing your analysis with us. ANd if in fact there is a good deal fo analysis going on, then it means that there is a lot more thought behind the posts you DID make, which means that as compared to me (I ramble and am barely coherent), you probably have intentions with each post you make. You claim to be good at detecting weak logic, but I am saying that you fuss over weak logic while taking pains not to expose any of your own logic, which means, hmm... something.


And the new ones:

This is an odd quote. It seems as though you are accusing Cicero of not considering the fact that him and I are scum buddies. What is your position? That Gorgon and I are scum buddies and buddied up to cicero for giggles, or that Cicero Gorgon and I are all scum buddies together?

In post 843 you incredulously replied:

I have focalized my suspicions about pwayne/cicero. Why are you asking me if i think it's one or the other, pwayne?
That comment to cicero was any analysis of him.

I think it's all three of you

, and he, as town, should be suspicious of the way you and gorgon got along, as well as the fairly heavy defense you gave of him (cicero) day one. As town, he should be.
Instead, he's fairly ambivalent. He's ceded that he was wrong about gorgon, he backed off after his attack on me, and now he's 'defaulted' to ssf. Oddly, gorgon was suspicious of ssf too. Right? I mean, am i wrong?

The quote is a little odd, as it also seems to say that you think cicero is town. The bolded part is clear though. While we are at it, I don't think you ever got around to showing how Gorgon and I were exceptionaly chummy.

Could you do that?

Hmm.
What is the point of you asking this?
Look at Gorgon. Look at how many times he talks with each player.

Tally it up. I'm not going to do it now, but tally it up. If I remember correctly, the only time he directly acknowledged your existance, pwayne, was when he wished you a happy birthday, when he coaxed ChocolateAttack to respond to your questions, when he expressed displeasure at PGup saying you and BM were town,

And directly to YOU, one of only two times ever, when you voiced suspicion of him for letting it slip that he thought Guppy was town. THe other was when he agreed with you saying that it was okay to lynch a useless power role.

[Skruffs]

YEs, Cicero, trying to impress the new guy.
[swoon]Hi The Hermit [/swoon]

"Asking him to give me *something*"
Yes. What were you asking him to give you? Did you honestly feel that he was holding back, or that there was more to his role? You are trying to suggest that your disbelief of his role was on flavor, but you were definitely taunting him to 'convince' you not to vote him. And if you honestly thought he was scum, why would you be pleading with him to give you a reason not to lynch him? There's a discrepancy with how you say you think about someone and how you actually act towards them.

Pwayne: If you were suspicious of Gorgon for thinking PGup was a townie before he was actually revealed, why were you NOT suspicious of Cicero for the exact same thing?


Cicero: If you've answered it five times, then you can't possibly mind answering it a sixth. Also: is tunnelvision now becoming scummier than lurking? Does vote-hopping trump tunnelvision?


Lurking/Replacing/Modkilling: Lurking/inactivity is a facet of mafiascum.net games. IT happens. NOBODY posts on Saturday. Weeks alternate with activity. Now that Theo is dead and town, you've stopped pushing it as much. Why? Chocolate Attack, for example, only posted two 'fillers' between the 16th and the 23rd, but you haven't called for his replacement or modkilling. I personally feel you exploited a mod that you knew would kill off it's players to further your own ends. The mod himself (which is a botch) even ceded that it was because of your CONSTANT urging that he modkilled Theo.

You asked why I was suspicious of you and not Shaka: Shaka mentioned a modkill once, as far as I remember, and I counted EIGHT times that you requested it. It became a MAJOR PART of your interaction with the game.

Please link me to a game where you have so intensely demanded modkills as town. I'd appreciate it.

[cicero]

K. Ive answered a lot of this and I'm frustrated at you making me repeat it.

On newbies - I'm just going to point you back to my last post skruffs. We've also discussed this repeatedly. You can't just keep asking the same question over and over again rephrased, I'm sorry.

On Modkilling this is the last word: I'm big on making the game go forward or this stops being fun for me. I didnt know if Theo was town or scum. I feared us all being townies sniping each other while the scum was an empty chair. That is also why I harrass lurkers so badly. Full participation maximises my ability to measure the behavior of other players.

Also Skruffs, I have two repeated games. In one I was the replacement, in the other we needed no replacements. My other games are ongoing so you can't know my alignment, but I am harassing the mod in Mafia 65 to modkill inactive players as we speak. Please note, Skruffs, that the mod knows my alignment and might take that into account if he thought I was being self serving.

On vote-hopping vs. Tunneling: Neither is necessarily scummy in my opinion. I look for artifice and honest thinking in either scenario. Unlike some people who play on this board, I am not an automaton. I look for context. Lots and lots of context.

Nothing I say is going to change your mind, Skruffs. That is clear.

[shaka!!]

To be honest I think mod killing is utter bull shit, and yes I do count it as a scum point on my tally.

I do believe that one time I referred to it was expressing my disappointment in the mod killing of Theo.

Cicero, the reason why you are not going to be changing Skruffs mind is because right now the majority of arguing going on has been a matter of opinion a vs opinion b.

In a situation like this one can only take the opinion of either of the parties.

Skruffs does make a good point though, why are you not pressuring CA for being inactive and why were you not pressuring me when I disappeared?

[pwayne66]

When did CLA become confirmed?

When you got your PM.

Is this a slip?

no.

IS pushing the wrong word?

no.

s the theory apt?

No. It is false and misleading.

If you meta'd him and thought he was town, why would you want to apply pressure?

If I thought he was town I could pressure for an assortment of reasons.

why would you want to focus more attention on him?

I don't know.

Am I interested in persecution?

I believe so.

When they are answered, will my attention move on?

The data does not indicate so. I would have to answer no.

Is posting suspicions scummy?

No.

I don't see the point of putting someone you feel is town close to lynch.
Do you? Explain.

I've seen people put people they feel are town close to lynch for a variety of reasons. Sometimes people will put another player close to lynch in order to get them to talk. Sometimes in order to gauge other's reactions. Sometimes they do not care. Sometimes they are scum trying to get an easy lynch. Sometimes to see how a person will react to pressure.

Define "Crappy Logic", please.

Crappy logic encompasses all sorts of things. Bad inductive reasoning (My dog is a poodle so all are poodles) bad deductive reasoning (If I was a millionaire I would be happy. I am not a millionaire, therefore I am not happy) and the employeement of general logical fallacies.

Would you want to lose the game, as town, because you were being nice to someone that yuo killed as scum in a previous game?

no.

What is the point of you asking this?

It seems to be a key point in your case. In the interest of supporting it, I suspected that you had reasons for believing so and wanted to know what they were.

If you were suspicious of Gorgon for thinking PGup was a townie before he was actually revealed, why were you NOT suspicious of Cicero for the exact same thing?

If I were suspicious of Gorgon for thinking PGup was town, I would be suspicious of Cicero as well.

[pwayne66]

EBWOP:

Is this a slip?

Its possible.

IS pushing the wrong word?

Yes.

[cicero]

Skruffs does make a good point though, why are you not pressuring CA for being inactive and why were you not pressuring me when I disappeared?

Well it's obvious isn't it? You and Chocolate Attack are my scumbuddies. :p

here's me "ignoring" Chocolate Attack:

There seems to be a tendency we have to ignore ChocolateAttack because of his short infrequent posts, apologetic friendliness, and garbled english (sorry CA, no offense intended). I'm trying to remedy that a bit and bring him out into the open.

Who says I didnt pressure? I call for mod prods and replacements and modkills if necessary. But I have more sympathy for people who pop in talking about exams (You and CA) than I do for someone who isnt contributing in this game but is actively posting throughout the site. And I still pointed out that it was part of CAs lurking tendency that we all need to be wary of. I didnt notice you being particularly lurky at all. It's all about context again. You should remember that when you HAVe contributed it has often been to ask me direct questions. You also presented and pushed at least one strong case persistently. So you didnt much seem to be trying to hide in the shadows. I do recall begging you not to get replaced though.