Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[keyenpeydee]

Vote Count

VOTE COUNT 3.05

[0] Road Kamelot -
[0] ArcAngel9 -
[2] Nero Cain - ChaosOmega, Naomi-Tan,
[0] rb -
[0] MortFeld -
[0] Lil Uzi Vert -
[1] Naomi-Tan - Nero Cain,
[0] ChaosOmega -
[0] Shadow_step -

Not Voting

- Road Kamelot, ArcAngel9, rb, Lil Uzi Vert, Shadow_step, Mortfeld,

MOD NOTES:

Keep everything cool and enjoyable

V/LA:

ChaosOmega - Until Monday

With

9

Alive, it takes

5

to lynch. Day Three will end in

(expired on 2016-12-01 15:45:00)

.

[MortFeld]

Im not sure if this'll fly for the rest of town but I'm gonna try it so here is another thing that may prove nero!red or me dumb. So; If you guys was in nero's position. Where you know there is one red left and one of the players focused you HARD, Like unreasonablly hard. Would you think they are

A) A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abadon that will only kill themselves and end the game if they are red the next day as its not in lylo.
or B) A Green who is convinced they know who the last red is

i feel that A) is not a thing that can really come from a green motive (as thats what nero selected) I think their vote is another red tell...
I'm not sure if you guys agree or if i'm just reaching but whatever. Thats for the world to choose.

Are you saying that Nero focused you hard, and that Nero is "A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abandon"? Or are you saying that Nero thinks you are A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abadon?

If it's the former, your argument is circular. If it's the latter, I don't understand the point.

2841 is a derp, probably more of a townderp than a scumderp. Would you call this LAMIST? scum!Naomi saying 'scum might have a godfather' is an attempt to mimic a towntell, since obviously there can be no godfather in a normal, and town!Naomi wouldn't know the last mafia's role. Seems NAI.

2838 is pretty much how I feel about Nero's case on Naomi right now. I'd need more to think she's scum.

Naomi, just so you know, Arc is (probably?) going to announce who she's jailing before she does it. This gives her JK ability the added benefit of being able to confirm townies, in addition to being able to find scum. But it does mean that she won't jail someone based on a lynch's flip.

[Naomi-Tan]

Are you saying that Nero focused you hard, and that Nero is "A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abandon"? Or are you saying that Nero thinks you are A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abandon?

Im saying that its the latter here, but that view point doesn't line up with it being non-lylo (8 to 1) as if nero does flip green i'm pretty much killed myself and I think from a town perspective that would be kinda obvious. The fact they omgus'd and tried to convince others to lynch me rather than trying to convince me to drop where I'm going seems like a red move.. if you think about his motives for voting me its. They pushed me, and then got my idle times incorrect. Which both seem like kinda weak reasons.

[MortFeld]

Are you saying that Nero focused you hard, and that Nero is "A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abandon"? Or are you saying that Nero thinks you are A Red Looking to get a kill on a green with reckless abandon?

Im saying that its the latter here, but that view point doesn't line up with it being non-lylo (8 to 1) as if nero does flip green i'm pretty much killed myself and I think from a town perspective that would be kinda obvious. The fact they omgus'd and tried to convince others to lynch me rather than trying to convince me to drop where I'm going seems like a red move.. if you think about his motives for voting me its. They pushed me, and then got my idle times incorrect. Which both seem like kinda weak reasons.

Thanks for explaining. You said that, if you really were a red tunneling hard on Nero, "if nero does flip green i'm pretty much killed myself and I think from a town perspective that would be kinda obvious." Why would it be less obvious from a scum perspective?

That is, why would scum be more likely to take actions based on belief of the contrary; that the town might not sort you tomorrow, and that you need to be sorted today while Nero is alive to convince people?

[Naomi-Tan]

Because there not looking for who is green and who is red. just who is a good miss lynch.

[MortFeld]

Let me restate your argument so I understand.

1) Nero is pushing Naomi.
2) His reason for doing so is Naomi's push on him.
3) Either Naomi's push is town motivated, or it is scum motivated.
4) For Nero to be voting Naomi for her push on Nero, Nero must think it is scum motivated.
5) This would characterize Naomi in Nero's mind as a Red looking to get a kill on a Green with reckless abandon.
5.5) the other side would be that Naomi is a Green who is convinced they know who the last red is.
6) A town player would have no reason to think that 4) and 5) are true. This is because it is obvious to town that a tunneling scum would die after they player they tunneled flips green.
6.5) The reason Nero doesn't see 6) is because he is only trying to assure a mislynch, not find the last scum.
7) Therefore, Nero's push must be scum motivated.

A few questions.

-Is this a faithful reproduction of your argument? If not, please let me know where I'm mixed up.
-How is 6.5) not circular? You are saying that Nero is missing a town perspective for 6) because he has a scum motivation (trying to get a mislynch) for voting you. But saying he has a scum motivation presupposes that he is scum-aligned.
-Is the second part of 6) true? Think about town!Nero. Assume he really does think you're the last scum. From his perspective, if he is lynched today and he flips town, do you really think he believes you will be lynched tomorrow?

I think you've hinted at the missing piece but I want to make sure you say it. I think this is pretty much a damning argument at this point in time given the right support.

[Naomi-Tan]

Yes that is my argument.

6.5 Isn't Circular as Nero hasn't tunneled Nearly as hard as I have. I been pushing them so hard that its obvious that Im not it and am convinced more than anything they are red. While there push on me has been limp at best (being an OMGUS and You got timings wrong)
I think the second part of 6 true. I been pushing him all day and if they flip green as im not confirmed the next logical red would be myself.

[MortFeld]

As 6.5 is stated it is circular.

Basically the missing piece is that Nero does believe that you won't be lynched tomorrow. This is obvious based on his voting you instead of RK. As town, he would have no reason to believe this, since you have been pushing him all day. As scum, he has ample reason to believe this. If he dies, the game is over. Therefore, his push of you is definitely scummy.

It is odd that he's not voting RK. His case against you (as it stands) is bad. As either alignment, you'd think he'd get on his counterwagon.

@Nero, Naomi is not getting lynched today. What do you think about RK?

[Naomi-Tan]

As 6.5 is stated it is circular.

Basically the missing piece is that Nero does believe that you won't be lynched tomorrow. This is obvious based on his voting you instead of RK. As town, he would have no reason to believe this, since you have been pushing him all day. As scum, he has ample reason to believe this. If he dies, the game is over. Therefore, his push of you is definitely scummy.

It is odd that he's not voting RK. His case against you (as it stands) is bad. As either alignment, you'd think he'd get on his counterwagon.

@Nero, Naomi is not getting lynched today. What do you think about RK?

well he did put a bit of shade my way heavily focusing on me getting the prod times wrong. also saying things like; shouldn't a player from a long time ago know this. Which kinda reads to me like he thought that he could turn the entire town on my Position given my Activity.

[MortFeld]

well he did put a bit of shade my way heavily focusing on me getting the prod times wrong. also saying things like; shouldn't a player from a long time ago know this. Which kinda reads to me like he thought that he could turn the entire town on my Position given my Activity.

Are you saying that Nero does think town will actually lynch you tomorrow if Nero is lynched and flips town? I don't get what this post is responding to.

And why do you characterize this as shade? It seems valid to me. 'Trying to turn town against __' is also a way of framing 'trying to convince town that __ is scum,' which is something both town and scum do.

[Naomi-Tan]

well he did put a bit of shade my way heavily focusing on me getting the prod times wrong. also saying things like; shouldn't a player from a long time ago know this. Which kinda reads to me like he thought that he could turn the entire town on my Position given my Activity.

Are you saying that Nero does think town will actually lynch you tomorrow if Nero is lynched and flips town? I don't get what this post is responding to.

And why do you characterize this as shade? It seems valid to me. 'Trying to turn town against __' is also a way of framing 'trying to convince town that __ is scum,' which is something both town and scum do.

Just the way they did it. like quoting my experience despite only having less than a handful of games and stuff..

I'm not saying they think green. I'm saying they think red looking to flip tables on me seems more red than green.

[MortFeld]

well he did put a bit of shade my way heavily focusing on me getting the prod times wrong. also saying things like; shouldn't a player from a long time ago know this. Which kinda reads to me like he thought that he could turn the entire town on my Position given my Activity.

Are you saying that Nero does think town will actually lynch you tomorrow if Nero is lynched and flips town? I don't get what this post is responding to.

And why do you characterize this as shade? It seems valid to me. 'Trying to turn town against __' is also a way of framing 'trying to convince town that __ is scum,' which is something both town and scum do.

Just the way they did it. like quoting my experience despite only having less than a handful of games and stuff..

I'm not saying they think green. I'm saying they think red looking to flip tables on me seems more red than green.

You misunderstood my first question but it's not a big deal. I agree with your argument or at least a version of it.

[MortFeld]

I'll get to the specifics of your case either later ronight or in the morning

Waiting.

[Nero Cain]

As 6.5 is stated it is circular.

Basically the missing piece is that Nero does believe that you won't be lynched tomorrow. This is obvious based on his voting you instead of RK. As town, he would have no reason to believe this, since you have been pushing him all day. As scum, he has ample reason to believe this. If he dies, the game is over. Therefore, his push of you is definitely scummy.

It is odd that he's not voting RK. His case against you (as it stands) is bad. As either alignment, you'd think he'd get on his counterwagon.

@Nero, Naomi is not getting lynched today. What do you think about RK?

well he did put a bit of shade my way heavily focusing on me getting the prod times wrong. also saying things like; shouldn't a player from a long time ago know this. Which kinda reads to me like he thought that he could turn the entire town on my Position given my Activity.

You do know that I was pushing you on d1? I mean yea, I gave you the stink eye for lying about my activity in the thread but why shouldn't I, why should I think you are town for all that? Do you think its impossible for scum to push erroneous cases?

[Nero Cain]

It is odd that he's not voting RK. His case against you (as it stands) is bad. As either alignment, you'd think he'd get on his counterwagon.

@Nero, Naomi is not getting lynched today. What do you think about RK?

As far as I know RK has no votes on her so its not really a "counterwagon" but yes she's a better lynch that me.

[MortFeld]

It's not literally a counterwagon but it is functionally the town consensus for an alternative to your lynch.

[Nero Cain]

i feel that A) is not a thing that can really come from a green motive (as thats what nero selected) I think their vote is another red tell...
I'm not sure if you guys agree or if i'm just reaching but whatever. Thats for the world to choose.

Are you serious here? Like half this fucking site is so OMGUSY that I'm really surprised that you haven't seen this yet so it sounds like A). A lie or B). you don't really read your games thoroughly. I guess C). that you played in a game with halfway decent players is a possibility but the idea that I can't think you are scum pushing a manipulative case to lynch me is laughable.

Like other than RK I'm the path of least resistance today so why would it be impossible for scum you to push me today?

[Nero Cain]

But that doesn't stop all my other reasons.

Besides POE I don't really remember anything else.

[MortFeld]

Like other than RK I'm the path of least resistance today so why would it be impossible for scum you to push me today?

-Premise: Naomi's push of you is scum motivated.
-Either your flipping town will result in Naomi's being lynched tomorrow, since she seems to be tunneled on you, or it will not result in her being lynched tomorrow.
-You are trying to convince town to lynch Naomi today amidst some resistance.
-You would not do this if you believed that Naomi will be lynched tomorrow as a result of her tunneling.

[MortFeld]

Like other than RK I'm the path of least resistance today so why would it be impossible for scum you to push me today?

-Premise: Naomi's push of you is scum motivated.
-Either your flipping town will result in Naomi's being lynched tomorrow, since she seems to be tunneled on you, or it will not result in her being lynched tomorrow.
-You are trying to convince town to lynch Naomi today amidst some resistance.
-You would not do this if you believed that Naomi will be lynched tomorrow as a result of her tunneling.
-Therefore, you believe that Naomi will not be lynched tomorrow.
-One reason for this is that you are scum and know that your flip ends the game.

EBWOP. Yes, it is possible for town!Nero to believe that Naomi will not die tomorrow if Nero flips town despite her being the most adamant proponent of a Nero lynch. But this means that Nero acknowledges that people have reasons to townread Naomi. Perhaps this would be a place to start convincing people? I have yet to see a real Naomi case from Nero.

[Nero Cain]

Did you play chat mafia before coming here Mort?

I've been in plenty of games where scum pushes town and town doesn't lynch scum/who pushed town the next day so its no guarantee but there's a good chance that she'd be copp'd/docced.

[Nero Cain]

Mort this is the reply that I was working on to adress your issues with my posting but my medicine is kicking in so I'ma finish in tomorrow and drop my full case on Naiomi.

Spoiler:

696 Votes Chaos over obvious joke. Read out of context? Not sure how. -.5

If you think his 526 was a joke how does it explain his seriousness of 703. There

is

the line "I didn't give a shit personally" but I think his response showed real anger at TF and his 696 wasn't a joke post.

First part of 1129 is not true. TF did not say anything about alignment - 'unnecessary' doesn't imply 'scummy.' Points out TB's 112 as scummy. Reasonable. -.5

I thought it did and his 111backs me up on this.

1) 1309 rereads TB, decides Arc is scummy. Inconsistency. Might be explained by Nero's being scum - knows Arc is town, doesn't see a case, wants town cred because Arc may eventually flip. Then he sees a valid case and jumps on. Could also be town. -.5

I don't really think its an inconsistency, it just took me longer to understand the case on TB.

[rb]

mort who are we voting today?

[MortFeld]

mort who are we voting today?

Probably Nero, if not Nero then RK. Very long ball on Naomi.

[MortFeld]

Did you play chat mafia before coming here Mort?

I've been in plenty of games where scum pushes town and town doesn't lynch scum/who pushed town the next day so its no guarantee but there's a good chance that she'd be copp'd/docced.

Yeah I agree with this. This is definitely the weak point in that argument, which basically only stands now because you lack a case on Naomi. Although I will say that if you and RK die and flip town going into tomorrow Naomi is probably next.