Micro 661 | Scumteam UnPick - Pressure Done

[BlackVoid]

Caught up. I think the scumteam is Prohawk and Dunhallym. Something_Smart is a hard read but he's the towniest of the three and some of his points are good. ZZZX, Gamma, and Jaack are stronger townreads.

VOTE: Prohawk (Lynch-1)

[Something_Smart]

BlackVoid writing Jaack, Gamma and ZZZX off as town makes me more than a little uncomfortable, as those are my townreads too so I wonder if he's either trying to appeal to me or keep me as a townbeard to protect his buddy Gamma.

Why does it make you uncomfortable? Why are you voting Prohawk if you Gamma and I are partners?

Because you almost immediately called three slots out of six unequivocally town. And I don't think you are scum with Gamma, but I think that that would be a great way to interact with your partner if you were scum, and the only one among those three who could be your partner is Gamma.

[BlackVoid]

Okay, that's fair. What changed your mind on Dun? Who do you think is the scumteam?

[ProHawk]

Alright you scum bags you better freaking let me get my last post in before you hammer me

[ProHawk]

If anyone quick hammers consider them scum and Lynch with extreme prejudice tomorrow

[ProHawk]

Jaack, look - I get why you might think Prohawk and Tenshii were scum but I like to think I'm fairly readable guy as town. We worked together decently well in mhsmith's game. I think you are town and right about Prohawk, work with me here.

This is the garbage that pisses me off. "Hey were buds, we play together, lets team up."

[ProHawk]

No he isn't? He admitted that his case was weakened by his error (not lie!) but also that it brought up a new point.
Which is a valid point. Why didn't you ever call him out on the fact that he was wrong about you scumreading Tenshii?

Are you really this dense? THE LIE IS THAT HE IS SAYING I NEVER SCUMREAD TENSHII WHEN I POSTED THAT HE DID SOME SCUMMY STUFF WHICH IS WHERE HE SAID I HAD A "WEAK" SCUMREAD ON HIM.

[ProHawk]

Look, here is Jaacks plan for the blind.

He is scum-reading Tenshii. He can't just jump from his town-read on me to scum-read without anything to show for it, but he NEEDS to mis-lynch me in order to get the matrix to align for an easy win. So what does he do? He creates these scum-team scenarios from the matrix to lynch someone who ISN'T Tenshii, BUT BUT is "obviously" Tenshii's partner because he knows Tenshii will flip town. And of course Prohawk and Tenshii did this super scummy connection which later he would say didnt really happen but then Prohawk is MORE scum because this thing that didn't really happen but did really kinda happen Prohawk didn't call me out on so he is SUPER scum.

Lynching Tenshii first does a few things.

1) Creates scrutiny on him for a bad push.
2) Eliminates his "scum-read" so then he has to find someone else to migrate to.

If he lynches Tenshii's "partner" first then... (and isn't it convenient that the matrix supports his decision to lynch before seeing if Tenshii doesn't end up being scum because look at those ODDS!!)

3) When Tenshii's partner flips town (which Jaack knows will happen), it leaves him open to Say whoops, I guess Prohawk wasn't really scum, dang, but Tenshii/BlackVoid is still scum so either...
a) Gamma by extension is scum and lynches him (endgame)

or
b) Tenshii is scum lets lynch him now (endgame)


THIS is why you can't scum-hunt off of someone without a flipped scum-card otherwise your hunting is flawed and you get crappy results. Or if you're scum, you are just stacking the deck which is EXACTLY what Jaack is doing.

OH

And if that's not enough for you, Jaaack doesn't bat ONE EYE that his SCUMREAD (And yes he is Still scum-reading Tenshii/BlackVoid or at least that's what he is presenting in the thread) is voting for his supposed "partner". THAT alone should tell you something.

This game can be so annoying and frustrating... all of these replacements are ridiculous. Please lynch me now.

And never never lynch Gamma, or Dunhallym... you could lynch BlackVoid not because he is scum though, just because he joined the darkside. Ok I feel better now.

[BlackVoid]

Well, this is the second game in a row someone told me I was playing for the scum - with very similar wording even.

[BlackVoid]

So, here's my problem Prohawk. Your whole paragraph reads very far-fetched to me. A few things wrong with it:

Jaack doesn't

need

to mislynch you to win. He could have mislynched Tenshii and after my slot flips town, turn on someone else. He could have mislynched Gamma or Dun if he's scum. You haven't explained why he needs to mislynch you and that just feels a bit like rhetoric.

If Jaack was scum and worried about scrutiny or the need to change his reads, he wouldn't have pushed as hard as he did on Jin/ssbm. He led the lynch from the front and was the primary pusher. Portraying someone like that as scum who wants to avoid responsibility for the lynch isn't very convincing to me.

[Dunhallym]

I don't have time right now but hopefully I'll have tonight so please do not hammer yet.

[Jaack]

Look, here is Jaacks plan for the blind.

He is scum-reading Tenshii. He can't just jump from his town-read on me to scum-read without anything to show for it, but he NEEDS to mis-lynch me in order to get the matrix to align for an easy win. So what does he do? He creates these scum-team scenarios from the matrix to lynch someone who ISN'T Tenshii, BUT BUT is "obviously" Tenshii's partner because he knows Tenshii will flip town. And of course Prohawk and Tenshii did this super scummy connection which later he would say didnt really happen but then Prohawk is MORE scum because this thing that didn't really happen but did really kinda happen Prohawk didn't call me out on so he is SUPER scum.

Lynching Tenshii first does a few things.

1) Creates scrutiny on him for a bad push.
2) Eliminates his "scum-read" so then he has to find someone else to migrate to.

If he lynches Tenshii's "partner" first then... (and isn't it convenient that the matrix supports his decision to lynch before seeing if Tenshii doesn't end up being scum because look at those ODDS!!)

3) When Tenshii's partner flips town (which Jaack knows will happen), it leaves him open to Say whoops, I guess Prohawk wasn't really scum, dang, but Tenshii/BlackVoid is still scum so either...
a) Gamma by extension is scum and lynches him (endgame)

or
b) Tenshii is scum lets lynch him now (endgame)


THIS is why you can't scum-hunt off of someone without a flipped scum-card otherwise your hunting is flawed and you get crappy results. Or if you're scum, you are just stacking the deck which is EXACTLY what Jaack is doing.

OH

And if that's not enough for you, Jaaack doesn't bat ONE EYE that his SCUMREAD (And yes he is Still scum-reading Tenshii/BlackVoid or at least that's what he is presenting in the thread) is voting for his supposed "partner". THAT alone should tell you something.

This game can be so annoying and frustrating... all of these replacements are ridiculous. Please lynch me now.

And never never lynch Gamma, or Dunhallym... you could lynch BlackVoid not because he is scum though, just because he joined the darkside. Ok I feel better now.

Let's break this down.
I wasn't comfortable with Tenshii. On a quick reread I say that a pairing with you made sense.
I decided to go in that direction over lynching Dunhallym because I think dunhallym's high activity in a relatively dead game was beneficial.
You make more sense to lynch than Tenshii did. If you flip town (which I doubt) I really have no reason to suspect that slot because I don't think Tenshii/BlackVoid is partners with Gamma. I've gone on record saying I probably won't want to lynch that slot if you flip town, multiple times at this point I'm pretty sure, so the fact that you claim this is part of my master plan is pretty innaccurate.

ANd your right, I'm not batting an eye that BlackVoid is voring you. Part of my reason for voting you over Tenshii/BlackVoid was that you could still have other partners. When you flip scum, town will have two chances to lynch your partner from [dunhallym, BV, SS].

And normally I'm against pre-flip associatives, but in this setup it makes more sense. You can rule out a lot of partners right from the get go, so there's less of a chance your going down an incorrect rabbit hill.

Finally, the way you've reacted to my vote by trying to discredit everything I say as opposed to responding to what I'm saying pushes you further into scum territory. You look desperate to make me look scummy, which I think is more likely to come from scum hoping for a miracle than town hoping for one.

[ProHawk]

Don't be mad bro

[Jaack]

Don't be mad bro

I found scum, how can I be mad?

[ProHawk]

Because I foiled your plan.

[Jaack]

Because I foiled your plan.

So let me get this straight.

You are saying that I'm scum, planning to mislynch you and then push a BlackVoid (or Gamma I guess) lynch through D3.

Let's break down the many ways which this is wrong.

1. I'm not scum.
2. I've gone on record multiple times saying I don't think the Tenshii/BV + Gamma lynch makes sense and I've explained why I think that. In fact my disbelief in that pairing is one of the things that lead me to scrutinize you further.
3. If I were scum, that is a blatantly terrible plan. Do you think anyone would be willing to listen to me push a single scumpair D3 after I lead two mislynches? Especially after I made arguments against that specific scumpair previously? Come on.

[Dunhallym]

So here is where I am. When I posted this morning I was ready to vote Jaack because of this:

*snip*

I'm definitely willing to consider Dunhallym after ProHawk scumflip.

I sitll think that Tenshii's interactions with ProHawk look bad, but I have an open mind.

Because up until now, the only case Jaack had made on Prohawk is the relationship with Tenshii so the bolded part looked awful. After Jaack's last post I feel somewhat better.

So my thoughts are as follows:
I said earlier that I could see scum Tenshii. I still do, mostly because of his vote on Jin yesterday (not the fact he voted Jin but the way he flipped and the reason he gave for his vote). BV replacing has done nothing to assuage those feelings.I feel that he has misrepresented me, and I agree with Smart that his townreads are bothersome and fit really well with a Prohawk/BV team.

Yet I've not completely let down my Jaack/Smart suspicions (I think Jaack/ZZZX is much less likely). See above for the last installment of my worries on Jaack. Unfortunately, nobody has bothered to comment on the points I raised earlier. Not even Prohawk and Jaack.
Then Prohawk's case on Jaack doesn't really make sense as I agree I don't see why Jaack would need to get Prohawk lynched over other possibilities. But I also thought that some points Jin/ssbm made didn't make much sense.
I think what bothers me most and makes me feel we are being played is the lack of a case on Prohawk (independently of Tenshii).

And I feel that I don't make sense because I'm too tired to express myself properly.
In short, I oscillate between two completely incompatible positions, i-e Jaack/Smart and Tenshii/Prohawk. And each time I start leaning on one side something happens and makes me lean the other way.
I'll UNVOTE: for now.
Anyway I think it's best to wait for Gamma's replacement (sucks to have that many replacements). I should be able to work on the game this week-end.

[ProHawk]

If I were scum, that is a blatantly terrible plan. Do you think anyone would be willing to listen to me push a single scumpair D3 after I lead two mislynches? Especially after I made arguments against that specific scumpair previously? Come on

Don't play dumb. This is what scum have to do EVERY SINGLE GAME

[Something_Smart]

Okay, that's fair. What changed your mind on Dun? Who do you think is the scumteam?

I might be able to find specifics if you wanted them, but the general way Dunhallym approached my pressure seemed like town trying simultaneously to defend against accusations and figure out the motivation of the person making them. She didn't really appeal to me at all, nor did she seem afraid that other people would catch on to what I was saying, as scum would be.

However, this then presents a quandary because I don't really see you or her particularly being ProHawk's partner, but I'm pretty confident that he is scum. (I guess if I had to lean one way, I'd lean you.)

No he isn't? He admitted that his case was weakened by his error (not lie!) but also that it brought up a new point.
Which is a valid point. Why didn't you ever call him out on the fact that he was wrong about you scumreading Tenshii?

Are you really this dense? THE LIE IS THAT HE IS SAYING I NEVER SCUMREAD TENSHII WHEN I POSTED THAT HE DID SOME SCUMMY STUFF WHICH IS WHERE HE SAID I HAD A "WEAK" SCUMREAD ON HIM.

So he's lying about a fact that makes his case weaker? And using that to push you?

Well, this is the second game in a row someone told me I was playing for the scum - with very similar wording even.

In that game, you were confirmed town. So that means that ProHawk is approaching you as if he knows you are town. Food for thought.

[Dunhallym]

Ok. So as I said my biggest problem comes from the fact there is no case against Prohawk. Jack voted him because of the Tenshii connection and keeps voting for his reaction. Bv votes him by PoE. Smart is the only one who has claimed that Prohawk is scum by himself. So I'd like to see the case on ProHawk from smart. If Jaack or Bv want to make one too that would be great.
Similarly Prohawk I'd like to see your case on Jaack preferably based on in game stuff and not conspiracy theories.
Thanks a lot.

In the meanwhile ZZZZX has disappeared again. I'd really like his input. And where are we regardinggames games replacement?

[Creature]

Ms Columbo replaces Gamma Emerald.

Searching ZZZX replacement.

[Creature]

-Grey- replaces ZZZX

[-Grey-]

Hi all.

VOTE: ProHawk

See you tomorrow.

[-Grey-]

I'll UNVOTE: for now.

Damn it.

[BlackVoid]

Welcome to the new replacements.

@Grey, why would you just hammer like that? Dunhallym wasn't even voting Prohawk. Right now, he's got four votes: Jaack, Smart, me, and you. That's a lynch. In any case, I really think Prohawk is scum which would confirm you as town. But if not, this needs to be looked into tomorrow.