Mini Normal 1862 - Town win.

[XnadrojX]

Official VC 1.5

Gamma Emerald (1)(L-6) [Ircher]
Ircher (2)(L-5) [Gamma Emerald, TwoFace]
Naomi-tan (1)(L-6) [flubbernugget]
Grey (2)(L-5) [Rainbowdash, krylea]
Flubbernugget (1)(L-6) [Asphodel]
Rainbowdash (4)(L-3) [Human Sequencer, Grey, Alisae, All Alone]

Not Voting (2) (TheRealGin-N-Tonic, Naomi-tan)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
_{Accurate to post 1149}

Mod Notes

If you see a mistake inform me because game moves incredibly fast, especially now since I think I made one
Gamma Emerald is on V/LA from Friday to Saturday
Whoooo pagetop

[Gamma Emerald]

Wheeee looks like someone has decided to board Ircher idiot train (would use the real quote but mafia slang makes it awkward).

[Gamma Emerald]

I want each player voting me to state that no matter WHAT Grey claims D2 you lynch him. If he claims a guilty. You lynch him. If he claims and inno. You lynch him. If he claims he got Ascetic. You lynch him.

No thanks.

[Naomi-Tan]

Okay read up again.

Why didn't you comment on anything after this? That's not like you.

The reason I am 180ing is because I have a plan for seeing if Grey is really a cop.

I'm sure my death will clear things up nicely.

Well... given your claim I think you being shot Is a given.. I mean unless another strong PR is exposed a Cop is a pretty good target.

Nothing until this post which is sort of obvious.

You see why I think you're scum? This isn't town Naomi.

Kinda was unmotivated yesterday after being chewed out for saving someone the day before. Also most of this stuff happened after I went bed. I do live in the UK so my last post was at about 10pm for me. Normally speaking i'm up all night but with christmas coming I switched to a more normal sleep pattern as I like to spend time with my family around this time of year going out and stuff. So when 10 pages pop up after I've gone bed its easy to see How It may look like I'm delaying compared to the games where I am up all night and can contribute like I did at the start of the game.

6. Naomi-Tan (+65%) - Guess I'm starting after 27 here. Serious Q -- Are you being facetious in 218? What was your read on Grey and me after making 230? 266 is a good readslist imo. 292 reads really town to me -- scum care, town don't. Starting to see what Naomi said for her introduction (and that's a good thing). 482 was a slip regardless of alignment, but that doesn't necessary mean Naomi is scum. Town "slip" all the time cuz they're less cautious. 549 gives an associative tell if either flips scum. Why did you feel the need to requite me in 660? (Not that it was necessarily a bad thing, I just wanna know why). Yeah, I kinda glazed through a lot of posts cuz they were hard to read, but I think the assessment during her intro is very accurate, so she's probs town.

Nope in 218 was around the point I put grey into the Green pool hard. I still think there green right now. There reactions and actions just look like someone who is aggressively looking for any red slip. It can be grating at times but I don't equate being aggressive and abrasive to being red aligned. It can be a red trait but I think given grays analysis and thoughts they are probably green.

In 230 my perception was you might be bad green. Lately I been unsure of that though. Gray was pretty much unchanged.

I just felt like 660 bared repeating. So It could be seen in both our iso's You drew attention to something no one else was looking at. I think it was good.
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Then I read rainbows post. She puts forward an amazing case here and entirely flipped my thoughts on gray. Like Her first section where they talk about how he assumed no RB is a thing. Like he had a go at me for assuming no day talk when its not declared. If that was his attitude towards roles. why would be also make an assumption and RB is a much more common role in my experience.

As I read the second part of RB's post all I was thinking was Why would they claim cop Day 1? They wasn't under major pressure and it just paints a huge target on themselves. Its very confusing to me.

VOTE: Gray Rainbows post Is masterful Red hunting. I don't think I would of spotted all that I'm joining this wagon.


I'll post this now and continue catchup oringally I was going to put my Ircher thoughts at the end ... so I think I will.
I'm unsure where I stand with Ircher right now. I do see the points people have made but If Gray is red and I was wrong (which I believe right now) I can't see a game where Ircher and Gray are on the same team given interactions at this stand Ircher was tunnelling gray for a while and IIRC gray also at one point voted back. If Rainbow haddn't stepped in I could see myself probing Ircher much more to try and work out their red green balance. but as it stands I feel they are likely green. I may look into this if gray flips green. but as it stands I think Ircher is Green by association.

[Naomi-Tan]

@Rainbow: if you believe me about my claim Ircher should be scummy to you.

As odd as it may seem given what I am currently pushing, I tend to pride myself more on town read than on scum reads. If you have ever seen me play I will absolutely defend somepony I think is town to no end when I read them as town, even if that's not a popular read I am usually able to get them off the block. I was reading Ircher as one of my strongest town reads for quite a while, so this sudden descent of him is giving me fits since I don't know if he actually is just confused about what is going on or had happened to luck into hitting a few of my town tells in the early game.

Really im not sure if he just doesn't understand that the only way I really think you are scum is if you are ungodly creative with that role claim/are true claiming as scum and ascetic is scum or there is none. Its hard to sometimes judge since your role really is that rare.... in easily over 100 games here this is maybe the third time I have seen this role pop up.

Removed from your claim, you would be more of a null read to me, but that claim I don't see being fabricated, and if you had the guts to claim that as scum more power to you. That's really the only reason I have you as solid town here.

Either way, my vote is VERY firmly planted. I don't see Grey as town. As said already, I see him as more likely VT who tired to get cute than cop here.

@Ircher - Explain the scum motivation for Gamma to claim what he did for me.

I can relate to this. I find it much easier to find reds by the process of POE than but singleing them out.

[Alisae]

Naomi, Grey was forced to cop claim because he was at L-2.

And Rainbow isn't playing like a Miller according to Gamma.
But let me ask you something. I want you to re-read Rainbow's posts. And doing so, I want you to think "Is Rainbow trying to plant paranoia in the town?"
Because I feel like that's exactly what he's doing.

[Gamma Emerald]

I pride myself on my godlike scumfinding skills.
Also, RD's play makes NO SENSE from a town POV. I was worried about the VC but now:
VOTE: RainbowDash

[Naomi-Tan]

If you see him as VT, don't vote for him (unless that's not what you believe).

I don't think he is. I would say it something like 60% scum, 30% VT, 10% cop. More likely VT than cop, but more likely scum than anything else.

Again note how he basically ignores anything that is pushed against him. That is not what town does, that is scum who is afraid of town and wants it to just go away so hopes the speed of the game does that for him.

Also, RD should not have claimed FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS Ascetics should not.

I claimed so we could lynch Grey. If me revealing myself does that, we have created a situation where scum has to choose to kill the miller and ignore the other PRs, or leave other PRs alive to kill me. Either town gets further in the game or I eat a kill and help the rest of the town.

Also note how he picked out the one line that could be taken as a red slip like they did with my post

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

[Alisae]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

I'm not thinking that because of what he said about cops. I'm thinking it because of what he said about Asectics.

[Naomi-Tan]

Here's the deal.
Claiming Miller first post means scum can't fakeclaim miller under cop investigation.

But if they are going to claim miller under pressure D1 you can then Counter Claim it. I normally like to wait till near the end of day one to claim Miller

[Naomi-Tan]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

I'm not thinking that because of what he said about cops. I'm thinking it because of what he said about Asectics.

TBH I've sorta given up trying to meta out this game balance. Its all janky IMO

[Alisae]

Yeaaaah. I dunno who the fuck I want to lynch now.
All I know is that it's not Human Sequencer, it's not Naomi, and it certainly ain't Gamma.

I don't like this pony tho.
I feel like the only alignment to try to not believe the cop claim is scum.
VOTE: RainbowDash

No cop is kinda a safe red claim. You already know who Green are and can then start confirming people who are middle teir before shooting them off the next night or confirming a Pr as they get killed. Given you know who red and green are and where reds NK goes you could easily do stuff like this;

Fake Cop Target Gamma. (with either roleblock or Rolecop)
Killer Target Gamma.

Suddenly you have a watcher/tracker confirming You targeted the killed. With someone else. You say you copped them to confirm their role and the other person flips red. Suddenly you've outted a tracker/watcher PR and Confirmed your Fake PR to the rest of town. Given that you can then easily start offing people. starting with the investigative role that confirmed you and moving on to the rest of town. For bonus points have your remaining red buddy claim nurse and no kill one night (prob the first night) and when mass roleclaim comes you have a confirmed Doc and Cop on reds team. Its classic XD

But yeah Cop super safe as long as there isn't a second cop in the game Your pretty much safe.

I'm not thinking that because of what he said about cops. I'm thinking it because of what he said about Asectics.

TBH I've sorta given up trying to meta out this game balance. Its all janky IMO

Let me try to lead you onto the conclusion I came to then.
Why could scum!rainbowdash not want Ascetics to claim?

[Naomi-Tan]

Let me try to lead you onto the conclusion I came to then.
Why could scum!rainbowdash not want Ascetics to claim?

Yeah good question. Why would RD not want to claim a role she doesn't have? Partially if they risked being counter claimed. Why would Red!RD want to claim Ascetics is a better question.

[Gamma Emerald]

you read that wrong

[Naomi-Tan]

... I did? how was I meant to read it?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would scum not want the Ascetics to claim, you read why would scum claim Ascetic

[Naomi-Tan]

Why would scum not want the Ascetics to claim, you read why would scum claim Ascetic

I dunno why would Reds not want the ascetics to claim? If they have any active abilities knowing who they are would be useful. I don't think reds would shoot them unless they was a high skill player like RD looks like. So.. From a Reds perspective I think you'd be Meh on them claiming or not and just say in game the thing that you think would get most town cred. As no one seems to agree on the situation It could be 50-50. I don't think reds would think its a piroity information enough to force a claim given that they are still suspectable to NK.

[Alisae]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

[Naomi-Tan]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

[Alisae]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

I feel like scum not having Ascetics is possible and the reason that Rainbow doesn't want them claiming is because it's a step closer for us building a stronger townblock for us to lead lynches off of.
With that said tho, this falls apart if they do have Ascetics, which then I feel like Rainbow would want Ascetics to claim so that his own Ascetics could blend in with more ease.

[Naomi-Tan]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

I feel like scum not having Ascetics is possible and the reason that Rainbow doesn't want them claiming is because it's a step closer for us building a stronger townblock for us to lead lynches off of.
With that said tho, this falls apart if they do have Ascetics, which then I feel like Rainbow would want Ascetics to claim so that his own Ascetics could blend in with more ease.

Nah as a power role Ascetics doesn't really stop or slow Reds and they can shoot them if they want. Rainbows stuff is how the cop claim reads fake.

[Alisae]

Next question: What if scum had no Ascetics?

This theory falls apart if they do btw.

Not really I said my last thing as if Green had the Ascetic.

I feel like scum not having Ascetics is possible and the reason that Rainbow doesn't want them claiming is because it's a step closer for us building a stronger townblock for us to lead lynches off of.
With that said tho, this falls apart if they do have Ascetics, which then I feel like Rainbow would want Ascetics to claim so that his own Ascetics could blend in with more ease.

Nah as a power role Ascetics doesn't really stop or slow Reds and they can shoot them if they want. Rainbows stuff is how the cop claim reads fake.

I'm not thinking that it hinders them.
But if scum had no Ascetics, how would it help town if town knew who the Ascetics were?

[Human Sequencer]

The situation between Grey and Rainbowdash will not resolve itself. Everybody not on one of those wagons is either on a vanity wagon or not explaining why they read them both as town well enough. One of them must go today and I believe it must be Rainbowdash.

[Asphodel]

Self-meta-ing a little bit from my games on the other site,

I very rarely, if ever try to push for my partners to be lynched as scum.

That's for a few reasons. It was a pretty tight-knit group over there, and there was no cardflip in many of the games. Like, over a span of 20 or so scum games, I remember the single time I voted for a scum partner, and even that doesn't really count because my partner made a really terrible counterclaim. That's not to say I never scumread my partners, I just avoided seriously putting my vote on them because 48 hours is not a very long time.

A red flip will be V interesting. I'm confused as to why, as town, you'd be saying that or really anything regarding how you play as red?
I like the conclusion that because there is no day chat, this is his form of telling his partners he won't be pushing them if they get sus.

Was hoping to get towncred upon the first scum cardflip if it was a lynch I pushed hard for. Thought it was a reasonable thing to do given Naomi's similar post at the start of the game, and this wasn't something I wanted to try to have to argue after the fact. Honestly I'm not sure I could bus a partner. Luckily I drew a town role so it's not something I'd have to worry about.

So I've still got a vote on Ircher.

I don't like this. In my experience scum are more likely to just "suddenly remember" who they're voting than town. Outside of RVS, it's very unlikely that a townie forgets who they're voting for in the first place.

I do think there have been a lot of things he's done that look pretty scummy, but my suspicion of him has been mitigated by

Also:

Ascetic should claim now. Failure to do so is an auto-lynch in the future should you be proven to be an ascetic.

which I feel is a risky post coming from scum.

What even is this. Ircher's post here isn't really risky, it's just standard play when town wants a claim. I really can't see a townie who was genuinely skeptical of Ircher dropping that skepticism because of this post.

So I'll vote VOTE: Flubbernugget who I've actually liked more the more I've seen from him, but whose original vote on the me wagon along with his strange intro make me suspicious.

I don't like this either. I don't see a town motive for voting someone, and then immediately following it up with a punch-pull like that. When townies vote, regardless of whether it's for lynching, pressure, information, or even just spite, they usually want that vote to have the maximum possible effect. The immediate punch-pull comes off like Asphodel isn't motivated by any of those things. Scums are mush more happy to avoid getting into a fight, and I think that's exactly why Asphodel worded his Flubber vote this way.

I'll gladly lynch either Alisae or Asphodel today, they both read very scummy to me.

I wasn't suddenly remembering that I had a vote on Ircher--I was planning on shifting my vote to Naomi anyways. When that suspicion unraveled, I had the option to change my vote or to not change my vote. My vote on Ircher wasn't doing much anymore so I decided to change it.

I think asking for ascetic claims is a bold move if Ircher's scum. Rolefishing is a pretty common thing that scum get rung up for. He's also forcing himself and maybe potential scum partners to stake a claim on whether or not they're ascetic, which is risky because if he's scum he probably doesn't know what town roles are out there. Like what if the only ascetics are scum?

The town motive for voting someone and immediately reducing its effect is to be honest. Last night I put a lot of work into the Naomi case, only to have it unravel. Flubbernugget was a residual suspicion I'd had from earlier stuff, and I didn't see anything recent that was particularly suspicious. It was a case that I'd already laid out earlier. Leaving my vote on Ircher wasn't doing much good, and my suspicion on him had (at the time) been fading. So I thought maybe shifting my vote could get me some more posts from Flubbernugget, who's been fairly quiet this game.

Why?

We need to agree on a lynch (besides certain people ofc), and do it without letting them claim. There has been enough claims today.

This is bad play from scum or town. Town should want that info either way. Scum or town should not want to advocate for anti-town positions openly.

Okay.

Some things to consider:

1) Why am I acting blatantly anti-town considering I had a decent amount of trust up until this point?
2) Why would I be flashing a neon sign saying "Lynch Me" if I was scum?

Why would you do these things as town?

Going to sort out the RD-Grey thing in the upcoming readslist.