Newbie 1766 - Game Over

[lucca261]

I get the feeling lucca is very suspicious of me and hesitates to say it. I felt like he saw my reaction test and decided to try one of his own on me when he offered to sheep me on someone who he thought was null.

I don't hesitate to say that at all. I was waiting to see if you were going to interact with me about my vote, but you isn't so interested. So, let's get going:

- My first reason to suspect kyouko was his vote at think. Not the vote itself (that I would hate if it was serious, but since it was a reaction test, it's ok), but the "case" he made on Think's earlier posts, compared to a response he gave me. I quote:

pedit:
@Lucca - As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason. I was just about to ask you what you thought about that exchange. Do you think ThinkBig has been so towny this game that my vote should not be on him?

My point is: he had a real reason, even if he had a weak reason to vote him. his words. To me, it appears that reason he's talking about it's the answer to my question. But then, after voting him for the answer, he went there and posted a "case" based on his earlier posts, at #81. I don't get this. All of Think's posts were available for him to do that "case" earlier, when he voted him for the answer. So why he said his vote was a reaction test based only on the answer? Also, I thought he was cleverly asking me if I was open to a Think's lynch. So I went and voted for him.

The reason for the vote is easy. If he is town on that exchange with Think, and even later, with Zekrom, he seems to be the type of player who finds the tiniest crack, and pushes on it, to create interaction between players. So I went and voted for a null player. If you look at my post where I say I'm willing to sheep and call him null, it's a small post, with one line. I knew I was being scummy. I expected Kyouko, especially !townkyouko, to push on it, given that he seems to vote for people over the tiniest stuff, to get a reaction. But he only commented on it.

I also voted Think for his own reaction. I thought his reaction, over 1 vote, on the early stage of the game, to be weirdly big. But if someone voted me for the PM stuff, I think I would've been kinda mad, too. I can see this coming from both town and scum. So I voted him, to develop a better read on him.

---

The second reason that I suspect kyouko it's his change at voting. He, on #95:

I decided to vote him, but instead of explaining I decided to test him with the vote. My vote on him is real...

and on #102:

Also finish catch up and comment on my ThinkBig exchange

seemed both happy staying voting Think, and testing the waters for a possible wagon on him. But then, on #105 he suddenly changes his vote for Zekrom. for that, let's go to his answers to Aero:

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason". Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment.

Also, on this answer to Aero he seems very suspicious aboout Think, saying that the response to his vote was not towny. I had just voted Think. If you think a player response to his vote wasn't towny, when the same player gets another vote to react against, would you vote another player so quickly?

VOTE: Kyouko

---

going to say my thoughts on this page, as well as my reads on each player on another post.

[lucca261]

Meh. Don't look Zekrom readslist a lot. It's all carefully manufactured to me.

Everything on that readslist is not an original read:

His comment on end:

the_end is also reading scum too much. It's a thing I only noticed when looking at his reads as a whole, instead that as single reads. He almost only scumreads, and as a single townread. This last thing is pretty suspicious, at least for me. I can see why one would've thought I was scum by seeing me agree with his reads, and I can see why I was wrong in leaning completely on them.

rb's (#109) on the end:

Lol the_end has like 6 scumreads and 2 nullreads.

Still scum

---

zekrom reads on sofiel and rb seem close to what aero thinks of them

---

zekrom comment on me:

he's pretty much scumhunting but scumhunting by itself doesn't mean being town.

kyouko (#144) comment:

if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

---

also, there is this little gem:

He defended a town player (I'm pretty sure I'm town)

this can be scum trying to look town.

---

so, I'm not liking zekrom posts a lot, but I'm happier with kyouko atm.

[lucca261]

a small readlist:

TOWN
- rb: his posts come from a town viewpoint, and seem consistent with each other. he progresses his reads naturally, without looking forces.
- aero: his big catchup can be easily faked, but he seems to be asking the right questions, and trying to look scum.
- end: I don't see what you guys are seeing. on the readlist, he only put the people who hadn't posted so much on lean scum instead of null. I think he's trying to scumhunt, and even if I disagree with almost all his reads, I can see from where he's coming from.
- think: as I said, I'm null on him. I think his reaction can come from both frustrated town or scum, and since this he has gone on V/LA, so...
- sofiel: even though I liked his posts since I voted him, his vote and unvote pinged me wrong, especially the change in tone between his vote in zekrom and the unvote.
- friend: he is essentially coasting. I don't think there is one post from him that added anything for the conversation. Waiting for more content, but don't like it so far.
- zekrom: think he was trying to coast, and now is only parroting popular opinions
- kyouko: think I said enough about him.
MAFIA

[lucca261]

forgot to answer to aero:

liking RB for town more and more.

@zekrom, if you had to bet the game on one player being scum, right now, who would you choose?
@sofiel, same question.
@friend, you got any real reasons to vote end right now or is the vote still random? because you fosed ssbm and rb, but instead of voting them, kept a random vote. why is that?
@ssbm, are you going to scumhunt at all?

i got a weird feeling about Sofiel's #113. I feel like he wanted to vote The_End, but didn't wanted to be the third vote on the wagon, so he voted Zekrom instead. The logic is weird. He thinks that pointing out his decision is opportunistic scum. But he didn't think I was scum for doing it. I feel like he was looking for an excuse for voting Zekrom.

--

UNVOTE: Think

keeping voting Think right now is useless, since he is going to be V/LA.

i'll unvote and wait for the answers.

The questions in the post seem kind of boring, random, and baseless. Why ask that to ssbm, when there's like half the game that's made a lot less of an effort to do anything?

my question to ssbm was because I wanted him to engage with me, since he ignored my vote.

what did you thought it was random about the questions? both zekrom and sofiel weren't voting, so I asked them who was their biggest scumread. from Sofiel, I wanted to know if it was still Zekrom, and from Zekrom, who it was, since he only copied End reads.

Friend was still voting the same guy since rvs. Wanted to know if he had develop a real read on whoever he was voting. (don't remember who it was right now).

[Sofiel]

Lots to catch up on and just want to say I'll come in with a contributory post in the next couple of days. Christmas and all. I hope everyone has a lovely holiday season tho

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason". Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment.

VOTE: Kyouko

Yeah that's definitely not me saying I voted TB for his comment about daytalk directed at you. I told you my vote was a reaction test. I also told you I had a real reason to suspect him, but didn't tell you what it was in that post. My reason for originally voting him is in 81. The comment about daytalk was meant to bait a reaction out of him

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.5

ssbm_Kyouko (3) - ThinkBig, Friend Computer, lucca261
the_end (2) - rb, Zekromaster
Zekromaster (2) - ssbm_Kyouko, Aeronaut
Sofiel (1) - the_end

Not voting (1) - Sofiel


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day One is Monday, 2nd January 22.30. GMT, (in (expired on 2017-01-02 22:30:00)).

[rb]

Someone explain to me why Kyouko is scum again?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

[Aeronaut]

Merry Christmas/Holidays people, i'll be back around tomorrow probs

[ThinkBig]

Hello all. Working on catching up. Can someone summarize what I've missed so far?

[ThinkBig]

Your last post before my vote confirms my suspicion that you have a reason to not want votes on the_end. I do not know the reason but suspect you might be scum, so I vote you.
You have a bad reaction to me voting you, so my vote will stay for now.

To clarify, I didn't react badly to your vote, I reacted badly to the

reason

for your vote. Big difference.

I'm not paranoid about getting lynched because I'm not getting lynched.

[lucca261]

i'll try to post tomorrow. sorry for it, holiday time it's hard for me to post.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not much has really happened but it's only page 7. That's a fair clarification. My wagon sux btw

[Huntress]

Hope everyone had a good Christmas.

I'll be sending out prods later today.

[the_end]

I hope everyone had a great Christmas!

I'm catching up. Let me know if I missed anything.

This is where I'm at.

{NT}Sofiel [S: 38*][T: 47, 116]
{NT}rb (SE) [T: 118]

{N}ThinkBig(SE)
{N}ssbm_Kyouko (SE) [T: 43][S: 75]
{N}lucca261 [T: 84, 89][S: 93*, 118*]

{NS}the_end [S: RL*]
{NS}Friend Computer [S: 101*]

{LS}Zekromaster [S: 41*, 103*]

Spoiler: ***

38* This kind of stuck me as scum feeling the waters to see what is ok/not ok to do.
41* Ok... but you're going to efforts to show us that you're active, but aren't actually doing anything to help the game move forward.
93* willing to sheep
RL* Readslist; I really dislike how a lot the scum reads in this list, he later on sort of retracts by saying "I'm not sure"
101* I feel like this is somebody who read a lot of the last 2 or so pages, picked an argument, and then repeated it to look town
103* This post had three "I agree"s and one self defense for lurking. Nothing post to look busy.
118* Baseless/meaningless questions

Spoiler: Key

Conftown - {CT}

Town - {T}

LeanTown - {LT}

NullTown - {NT}

Null - {N}

NullScum - {NS}

LeanScum - {LS}

Scum - {S}

ConfScum - {CS}

I think I should clarify my readlist. When I say "Tending towards scum" I mean "NullScum" rather than "LeanScum". I stand by my scum reads. You've quoted me as saying, "I'm not sure", I don't think I said that anywhere. My reads aren't simple statements where I push a singular narrative of a player's alignment. I tried to reason a player's alignment from their "scum-like" actions and their "town-like" actions.

I kinda want Sofiel to take some stronger stances though

I saw her initial push as town but the unvote so sudden wasn't really town and I don't like that she didn't reaffirm her stance when I encouraged her to. It's like she just sort of gave up and it feels scummy to me, like scum trying to push and being shut down and then returning to lurking.

Ditto about Sofiel.

VOTE: sfm

Will come up with a readslist soon.

What does

sfm

mean? I couldn't find anything on the glossary on the wiki.

[lucca261]

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

What points to you think I'm misinterpreting? Only the PM vote? Or there is something else on the "case" I made on you that you think I was misinterpreting?

Not much has really happened but it's only page 7. That's a fair clarification. My wagon sux btw

Meh. The only scummy vote on your wagon, given what has ocurred on this page, is Friend, I think. I want an explanation from him ASAP.

--

@end, he voted for SSBM.

[lucca261]

hey zekro, why are you voting The_End?

can you summarize your case on him?

[Sofiel]

General reaction: Thanks a lot for the really in-depth responses and the questions you've posed to me. Totally get it. I'm just going to throw my all into it and hope for the best. Thus:

VOTE: Friend Computer

I can't get over the posts. #147 says "Currently think the_end is null scum" feels like a weak contribution and I really cannot get past the fact he hasn't responded to my votes/questions to him at all and his contributions don't seem to add anything. I feel like his posts have allowed him to fly under the radar a bit and I can't get over it - he's not done anything to make him stand out, he's not published a readlist and he's not actively scumhunting. His only vague scumhunting post is one that agrees with a general opinion that is 'the_end' seems a bit scummy. Other players in the game have been more central and the focus has been on them and I think we need to change this. I'm also wondering if this is bussing i.e. the_end is one of my stronger scumreads and Friend is scum trying to distance himself from the_end, but at the same time voting for ssbm because he sees an easy lynch that won't lose his teammate. I really want to get some focus on Friend hence why I'm using this post & i think earlier posts like #166 and previous reads.

I don't feel ssbm is scum despite the wagon and it's notable that FC is voting for them & one of my biggest scumreads. ssbm was a bit pouncy on TB but I feel the explanation of pressing for information is legit & it did give us info that is important and contributed overall to the town. Should be acknowledged that TB was an OMGUS vote and I think lucca isn't scummy enough for me so far to want to lynch him D1.

My reads:

rb, Aero are town-y enough for me to not want to push for a d1 lynch. (NT?)
ssbm, TB , lucca and Zekro are null (Zekro because the buddying argument which still makes sense to me).
Friend and the_end look scummy to me - Friend for reasons detailed above, the_end because it's easy to capitalise on my voting record as a point to vote against and I disagree generally with his readlist (his scum reads are my town reads etc).

I think there's a general rule to have double the amount of scum reads there are scum, so if I did have to point at possible scum I'd want to re-examine TB (bc OMGUS), lucca (for his vote on ssbm which seems opportunistic and worth looking into esp in context of his earlier vote on me which rang the same way - but in previous games I've read I've seen town get scumread for being opportunistic when genuinely trying to scumhunt) and Zekro (buddying argument and the lack of content argument are both balancing out for me atm).

[Sofiel]

Should add I'm voting for Friend because I just feel more sure about him than anyone else. It might seem better strategically to jump on the_end's wagon rather than try and start a new one but Zekro is still null for me and the voters on the ssbm wagon are very questionable for me in regards to my readlist & I'm not sure I fully trust them.

[Sofiel]

* on that subject ssbm should be on my town-y enough to not want to push for a d1 lynch rather than null. My mistake I saw the prod and I was like "I gotta post quickly!!"

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's because people think I literally voted TB for reading his role PM, and not for the reasons detailed in 81
(I think)

What pings me a bit is that neither of the_end or zekromaster are on my wagon rn which makes me think they aren't the scumteam. Lucca looks probably the towniest vote on my wagon with those detailed explanations, but I think he's misinterpreting some key points due to the language barrier

What points to you think I'm misinterpreting? Only the PM vote? Or there is something else on the "case" I made on you that you think I was misinterpreting?

Gonna outline what I think you're misinterpreting below. Making this from phone so it may not be as well organized as it should be for a wallpost

I get the feeling lucca is very suspicious of me and hesitates to say it. I felt like he saw my reaction test and decided to try one of his own on me when he offered to sheep me on someone who he thought was null.

I don't hesitate to say that at all. I was waiting to see if you were going to interact with me about my vote, but you isn't so interested. So, let's get going:

- My first reason to suspect kyouko was his vote at think. Not the vote itself (that I would hate if it was serious, but since it was a reaction test, it's ok), but the "case" he made on Think's earlier posts, compared to a response he gave me. I quote:

pedit:
@Lucca - As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason. I was just about to ask you what you thought about that exchange. Do you think ThinkBig has been so towny this game that my vote should not be on him?

My point is: he had a real reason, even if he had a weak reason to vote him. his words. To me, it appears that reason he's talking about it's the answer to my question. But then, after voting him for the answer, he went there and posted a "case" based on his earlier posts, at #81. I don't get this. All of Think's posts were available for him to do that "case" earlier, when he voted him for the answer.

So why he said his vote was a reaction test based only on the answer?

Also, I thought he was cleverly asking me if I was open to a Think's lynch. So I went and voted for him.

The reason for the vote is easy. If he is town on that exchange with Think, and even later, with Zekrom, he seems to be the type of player who finds the tiniest crack, and pushes on it, to create interaction between players. So I went and voted for a null player. If you look at my post where I say I'm willing to sheep and call him null, it's a small post, with one line. I knew I was being scummy. I expected Kyouko, especially !townkyouko, to push on it, given that he seems to vote for people over the tiniest stuff, to get a reaction. But he only commented on it.

---

The second reason that I suspect kyouko it's his change at voting. He, on #95:

I decided to vote him, but instead of explaining I decided to test him with the vote. My vote on him is real...

and on #102:

Also finish catch up and comment on my ThinkBig exchange

seemed both happy staying voting Think, and testing the waters for a possible wagon on him

. But then, on #105 he suddenly changes his vote for Zekrom. for that, let's go to his answers to Aero:

Thinkbig may have disagreed with why I was SRing him, but I don't think his response to my vote was towny at all. A town reaction would be to disregard something that nobody else would follow. I feel like nobody is reading the entirety of that exchange, because you're probably the third person who thinks my original reason for voting TB was actually because I thought he read about daytalk in his own role PM. I explained the reason I voted him after I was done testing him. Also I strongly disagree with the bolded, if scum just defends themselves and never hunts for "scum" they would lose a lot more games than they do

That's not true. I asked you if it was a reaction test, or if you had voted Think seriously for his comment to me. Your answer: "As for whether my vote was a reaction test: yes it was, but I had a real reason to suspect him, it was just a weak reason".

Here is you clearly saying that you voted him for that comment

.

Also, on this answer to Aero he seems very suspicious aboout Think, saying that the response to his vote was not towny. I had just voted Think. If you think a player response to his vote wasn't towny, when the same player gets another vote to react against, would you vote another player so quickly?

VOTE: Kyouko

---

going to say my thoughts on this page, as well as my reads on each player on another post.

Going to address the bolded in order.

• My vote was a reaction test because I decided to withhold my reason for voting him when I voted him. I had already noticed the posts I quoted in 81 when I pushed on TB. I didn't come up with those reasons after seeing a bad reaction to my vote.
• 102 was directed at the_end who had posted something on a partial catch-up up to page 3 I believe. I told them to finish their catch-up and comment on my exchange because they were the player I thought TB was chainsawing for, and I wasn't sure if it was because they were scum together or if it was TB trying to pocket the_end. the_end put gave weak stances on both of us that implied he either didn't fully understand my 81 or hadn't read it. I wanted to hear what he thought of my accusing TB of chainsawing him, so I told him to finish catching up and then comment on it. And of course I was happy voting TB at the time, he was my top SR at the time.
• That was not me clearly stating I'd voted him for the comment about daytalk, that was me explaining in my answer that your question wasn't worded correctly because the answer wasn't as simple as the closed-ended question suggested. I clarified that I
  both
  had a reason to vote him
  and
  that my vote was reaction testing him.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm catching up. Let me know if I missed anything

My last post reminded me you never did explain full thoughts on my TB exchange after I followed your 97 with 102. Specifically, what do you think of my suspicion that TB was chainsawing for you by attacking rb, which I detailed in 81?

[rb]

With holiday stuff I got my first prod in my entire history playing mafia.

I reckon ssbm_kyouko is a bad lynch today.

[Zekromaster]

hey zekro, why are you voting The_End?

can you summarize your case on him?

Re-reading his reads, he just accused everyone except him and two other players to be scum. There's also a single townread in his whole readlist, and his point for accusing the three inactive players of being scum looks pretty forced to me ("They're inactive, so they're scum because we are voting each other").